A Song of Ice and Fire

[Lord Godric]

Young Griff...now there's an interesting character to doubt.

[xhanax315]

Originally Posted by HMN

Of course I just got to the point of A Dance with Dragons that explains it all.

All the false identities in this book is driving me a bit crazy! I'm about 40% in and all of a sudden nobody is who they are calling themselves. And now I'm questioning if so-and-so is really who they say they are in the first place. Young Griff for example.

I know, I dislike how they've all changed. It's very confusing.

[HMN]

Originally Posted by Lord Godric

Young Griff...now there's an interesting character to doubt.

Yes, well, I mean his 'real' identity. Although I should have seen it coming with the stunt Jon Snow pulled on the wall with the babies. Maybe he's the 3rd betrayal. That would fit.

[Slartibartfast]

Argh...there be spoilers in these seas! Perhaps i should return after reading A Dance With Dragons. O_o

I just got into this series relatively recently and omg. Just omg. I really love it!

[HMN]

Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

Argh...there be spoilers in these seas! Perhaps i should return after reading A Dance With Dragons. O_o

I just got into this series relatively recently and omg. Just omg. I really love it!

yes, I figured it's been out forever and I was the last to read it.

I just finished DwD and I think I'm going to wait for the series to finish before I pick up the next book (whenever it is eventually published). I really liked the first two books, but only moderately liked the most recent two.

I feel even more than I did earlier that editing could have helped keep this story more concise. Again, I applaud the author for his amazing imagination, but I feel like he could have kept more of it inside his brain, and then put out companion books after. Sorry, I know that isn't a popular opinion around here.

[Lord Godric]

Originally Posted by HMN

Yes, well, I mean his 'real' identity. Although I should have seen it coming with the stunt Jon Snow pulled on the wall with the babies. Maybe he's the 3rd betrayal. That would fit.

Well...

Spoiler: show

When Dany is in the House of the Undying at the end of the second book she sees, as one of the visions, "a cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd." There have been two different suggestions on how to reconcile this with Young Griff. The first is that Varys is the "mummer" and Young Griff is his dragon. But I personally think the second explanation makes more sense and that is that Young Griff is a fake dragon used to rally the crowds. Personally, I think that Varys did not actually rescue Aegon, instead found a Valyrian-looking baby and raised him as his own to be a puppet on the throne. And, as the prophecy suggest, Young Griff will be paraded through cheering crowds eventually but ultimately is still a cloth dragon.

[HMN]

Originally Posted by Lord Godric

Well...

Spoiler: show

When Dany is in the House of the Undying at the end of the second book she sees, as one of the visions, "a cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd." There have been two different suggestions on how to reconcile this with Young Griff. The first is that Varys is the "mummer" and Young Griff is his dragon. But I personally think the second explanation makes more sense and that is that Young Griff is a fake dragon used to rally the crowds. Personally, I think that Varys did not actually rescue Aegon, instead found a Valyrian-looking baby and raised him as his own to be a puppet on the throne. And, as the prophecy suggest, Young Griff will be paraded through cheering crowds eventually but ultimately is still a cloth dragon.

I did like in DwD how we realize what a puppet master Varys is. That I very much appreciated. I didn't anticipate how integral he would be to the story, and that I liked.

Spoiler: show

I sense it's the second theory as well. But I don't see what Vary's motivation is. If he's doing everything to get Dany on the throne, why put up an impostor? Esp one that was on a mission to marry Danys? Ah, but I guess that's the thing, he would have an "in" on the new leadership.

[Lord Godric]

Spoiler: show

Varys' motives are entirely questionable, I have absolutely no idea what he is trying to do.

If he, as he says, was raising Aegon since the fall of King's Landing 16 years earlier why was he helping not only Dany but also Viserys? I guess it is possible he was trying to marry Dany off to the Dothraki to get her out of the way and clear the way for Aegon to get to the throne, but there was no way he could have foresaw that Viserys would die. Aegon comes before both Dany and Viserys in the line of succession, but there could have been a family war over the throne, especially since Viserys for a long time figured he was the rightful king. So perhaps Aegon was raised as a backup plan if Varys couldn't exert enough control over Dany or Viserys? I dunno. It's a tricky situation, and Varys must have had some ultimate plan but it's unclear what exactly it was.

[snapes_witch]

Whoops! I hadn't better read anything here; I'm only half-way through DwD!

TTFN

[HMN]

Originally Posted by Lord Godric

Spoiler: show

Varys' motives are entirely questionable, I have absolutely no idea what he is trying to do.

If he, as he says, was raising Aegon since the fall of King's Landing 16 years earlier why was he helping not only Dany but also Viserys? I guess it is possible he was trying to marry Dany off to the Dothraki to get her out of the way and clear the way for Aegon to get to the throne, but there was no way he could have foresaw that Viserys would die. Aegon comes before both Dany and Viserys in the line of succession, but there could have been a family war over the throne, especially since Viserys for a long time figured he was the rightful king. So perhaps Aegon was raised as a backup plan if Varys couldn't exert enough control over Dany or Viserys? I dunno. It's a tricky situation, and Varys must have had some ultimate plan but it's unclear what exactly it was.

Spoiler: show

Right, forgot about Viserys. Although one could argue that as Viserys grew up, Varys could see the madness in him start to grow. And by marrying Dany off, it would give her more physical power that she would be able to take over for her brother. Varys also presumably had Ser Jorah reporting back, so it could be that all was going according to Varys master plan.

Regarding Aegon, that one is more of a mystery. It could be as a triple back up - it seems like the master puppeteer has all contingencies planned for. Also, it occurs to me that in GoT we learn that Dany will never be able to have children. So having Aegon is important if they want to keep the blood line going.

[xhanax315]

Finally finished A Dance with Dragons last night. I was hoping that the epilogue would close off where we left off some of the characters because quite frankly I've forgotten some of who we've seen. Also, what happened with Jon Snow during his last chapter?

[Lord Godric]

..that's the question, isn't it?

[HMN]

Originally Posted by Lord Godric

Spoiler: show

Varys' motives are entirely questionable, I have absolutely no idea what he is trying to do.

If he, as he says, was raising Aegon since the fall of King's Landing 16 years earlier why was he helping not only Dany but also Viserys? I guess it is possible he was trying to marry Dany off to the Dothraki to get her out of the way and clear the way for Aegon to get to the throne, but there was no way he could have foresaw that Viserys would die. Aegon comes before both Dany and Viserys in the line of succession, but there could have been a family war over the throne, especially since Viserys for a long time figured he was the rightful king. So perhaps Aegon was raised as a backup plan if Varys couldn't exert enough control over Dany or Viserys? I dunno. It's a tricky situation, and Varys must have had some ultimate plan but it's unclear what exactly it was.

Spoiler: show

By the way, I started watching the first season on HBO, and I was reminded that Varys wanted Dany killed. Or at least according to the show version. It makes it clear that Jorah should have stood by and watched while the wine merchant poisons her. But he has a change of heart and I think it is when he switches sides.

So perhaps Varys was happy to have Aegon rise to power, but is now keeping Dany as the back up Targaryen.

[Lord Godric]

Spoiler: show

Well, Varys seemingly wanted Dany killed. But he also was the one to inform Jorah that there was a hit out on Dany which, in turn, allowed Jorah to save Dany's life. I don't think he ever truthfully wanted her killed - remember his conversation with Illyrio in the dungeons of the Red Keep - but I think he had to pretend so for Robert's sake. Otherwise his allegiances would be questioned.

[Chrysalis]

I finally finished all the books in the series. Although I had quite low expectations when starting out I found the series very entertaining and well-written (although some of the sex scenes were rather absurd and laughter-provoking rather than, well, sexy :-P). The female characters are also very strong and well-rounded considering the world of ASoIAF is so misogynist. I'm especially impressed at how well a middle-aged man can write 11-year-old girls.

I am glad for that last chapter with Dany because really, I wanted to slap her until she cried before that. She was just so, so, stupid and entitled to boot. :-/ However I'm glad that she realised that the Ghiscari were not 'her people'. Also, I felt bad for the dragons chained in the pit...?

Also, Jon Snow is a fool. Am I the only one who likes Melisandre of Asshai? I hope we get to see a lot more of her in the next book.

I hope we get to see more far-flung lands as well!

[canismajoris]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

(although some of the sex scenes were rather absurd and laughter-provoking rather than, well, sexy :-P).

Well, given Martin's general point of view about knights and nobles (he subscribes to the Terry Jones line), I think many of these scenes are meant to highlight exploitation and depravity more than love and eroticism.

ETA: I also think that while many of the characters are misogynists, the author himself does a credible job at balancing things. At the very least, I think all of the characters are in some way morally or substantially flawed. Like, (and your mileage may vary) Cersei is a terrible person because she was raised by a maniac, Dany is a flawed ruler because she's not even really an adult yet, Brienne is not very endearing (to other characters) because she doesn't care about femininity, Caitlyn is a bit single-minded but why shouldn't a mother be, etc.. All I'm saying is that I find a lot of complex representations of gender in the books, from the slippery eunuch Varys to the awesome she-hulk Brienne.

What I'm getting at is that I believe several traditional male archetypes are far more debased than the female characters are. We can't know how realistic the chivalric knight is, but Martin presents a world in which the honorable knight is a short-lived one, and the sadistic killer is almost the norm. For a male reader, this is not unheard of, but it casts our base instincts, which we try to ignore, as our defining characteristics. Misandry, if anything.

[Chrysalis]

I was not talking about the rape scenes, I meant the actual consensual sex scenes. Although one could question who consensual they were since women were so disempowered in that world.

What I like is that Martin provides us with a lot of different representations of women, and none of them remotely cardboard or stereotypical. I think Sansa and Catelyn are two of his strongest characters, a lot of male writers would shy away from writing two 'stereotypically' feminine characters. I'm not happy personally that the general consensus on those two seems to be that they are stupid and vapid, although I can't say I'm surprised either, given what I witnessed in the HP fandom.

[Moriath]

Originally Posted by Chrysalis

I was not talking about the rape scenes, I meant the actual consensual sex scenes. Although one could question who consensual they were since women were so disempowered in that world.

What I like is that Martin provides us with a lot of different representations of women, and none of them remotely cardboard or stereotypical. I think Sansa and Catelyn are two of his strongest characters, a lot of male writers would shy away from writing two 'stereotypically' feminine characters. I'm not happy personally that the general consensus on those two seems to be that they are stupid and vapid, although I can't say I'm surprised either, given what I witnessed in the HP fandom.

In my view, criticism of Catelyn is often unjustified, as she seems to be held to a higher standard than male characters - who also make mistakes. She seems to act on a whim quite often but so does Jaime and everyone loves him (including me). I like Catelyn.

I do not like Sansa. She's not stupid by any means and she's gradually learnt to be less naive and trusting but some of her decisions were motivated by vanity and carelessness. I mean, her father's dead because she basically ratted him out. She never really seems to fully realise just how important her role in this was. That aside, I have much sympathy for the position she's in. Sansa is not and will never be a favourite of mine but she is stronger than many fans give her credit for.

[Chrysalis]

Sansa was a young girl and taken in by the glitter and glamour of the Lannister court. Such as young girls are wont to do. The betrayal was not nice but ultimately it was Cersei and Joffrey's fault. If I remember correctly Sansa also hoped that at least her father would live if she wrote that letter. She really has evolved in the series, I hope she will be a major player in the GoT. I like her better than Arya actually, who sometimes seems to me to have the finesse of a sewer-rat. It's true though that Sansa doesn't realise how pivotal she is. It seems that she hopes that now the Starks are destroyed and Winterfell is burned that everybody will just forget about her. She also doesn't seem to be very much concerned where Arya is, although maybe that is also attributable to her youth.

Catelyn is fiercely protective of her children, that's where most of her impulsive decisions come from. There are plenty of male characters who have made much more foolish decisions than her.

Robert Arryn has got to be one of the most annoying characters - I would've thrown him out of that Moon Door! That the male characters are held to a lower standard than the female characters seems to be common across all of fandom.

[DeliciousMoon]

Originally Posted by Moriath

I mean, her father's dead because she basically ratted him out.

Her father's dead because of Joffrey. He's the one responsible. No one else was stupid enough to want him dead, not even Cersei.