Do wizards use magic too much?

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

I never got the impression that wizards actually "believed" that muggleborns were literally stealing magic, they were using that as just an excuse to persecute them.

But still, it isn't disbelieved strongly enough to be ridiculous. People like Umbridge were still willing to believe it as an excuse.

That may be true but I do believe that there was probably a group of wizards out there trying to get to the bottom of this issue much like there are whole hosts of people trying to find an autism gene or pinpoint the cause of a certain disease to discover if it's genetic. It would be a kind of wizarding medical research.

I'm fine with accepting that. I just don't know how they would go about it, and whether they'll ever truly get to the bottom of it.

Perhaps there are magical laws of physics that muggle, being ignorant of magic, cannot research? Like exceptions to Newton's laws like there are exceptions to Gamp's law of elemental transfiguration.

Frankly, I think a lot of the interaction wizards have with magic is results of the innate magic within them. I think that certain magical objects are only magic in the presence of wizards- potions only mix themselves the right way if the stirrer is magic, flames will only transport a being with magic coursing through them through the floo network, etc.

Wizards could certainly make all the electronic gizmos muggles use but it's been shown that when exposed to high levels of magic those electronics fizzle out and stop working. Wizards would have to reengineer muggle technology to a certain extent in order to make sure they would work reliably even in places like Hogwarts.

Yeah. Wizards seem to borrow from Muggles only when there is a useful technology that does not require electricity. That said, I don't know why they haven't found out about ball-point pens yet; you'd think that some muggle-borns would tire of the novelty of feather quills and constantly-smashing bottles of ink.

[storyteller]

we don't know if in the library, if they knew what they were looking for, they could use summoning spell.

As for for out how magic is created, I suppose that would be a lot like the goose that layed the golded egg. Just accept it and be thankful for what you have because if you try an force it, you get notheing.

I saw the 10th Kingdom again the other day on Netflix. Alin the Ssister''s Grimm Daphne can use magic but her sister can not because it is addictive to her.

You would think they would use the ball point pen, but maybe they exde round magic or one too many wiardput their wand and their pen in the sam pocket and were unable to find their wand quickly or thought they had their wand and lost it because they had a pen instead.

[wolfbrother]

Originally Posted by willfitz

They could, but it goes back to what I was saying before. Muggles can give wizards the tools to create Muggle technologies, but not vice versa. Thus, Muggles would depend on wizards for magic, where wizards would not need to rely on Muggles for technology. Remember, most Muggleborns grow up through their first 11 years knowing exactly how the Muggle world works, and if they choose to keep one foot in their family's world, they can easily achieve understanding of both Muggle and wizard methods. The same can't be said for a Muggle.

Dependency, I feel, just creates problems, and I think that was really the wizards' position all along. The more dependent the Muggles became on magic, the more they'd become a second-class race, and the more vulnerable they'd become to any sort of malice from a wizard.

I don't think it will work that way. The wizards are not going to take over the muggle industries. Unless they try to do so by force, which is a whole different issue. It will take quite a while for the magical community to learn our tech.

IMO the magical commmunity living with the muggle one will not be all that different with the exception that they wouldn't need to hide. IMO the fear that muggles would bug them frequently is exaggerated. We don't bug every doctor we see to treat us or every mechanic to fix our cars. We are also quite capable of replicating or mimicing some of the magic that is shown. We can have our own Marauders Map by sticking people with GPS trackers, rewatch scenes similiar to the pensieve by wearing contact lenses with cameras, mimic certain spells by voice controlling devices, attach a bionic arm similiar to Wormtail, 3D print certain stuff to make up for our lack of conjuring ability and all these are things that are possible now. We are researching a lot of really interesting stuff (self repairing materials, programmable nano-devices that can change shape etc). So, I don't think it would be a completely one sided relationship.

As I see it, wizards being forced to live underground is going to keep causing tensions. As it is, they believe they are better than muggles and having their freedom curtailed is IMO going to breed resentment. Sooner or later, someone with the brains and the drive to make things happen will decide that this is not how the status quo should be. I don't think Dumbledore was the first or the last person to have ideas to overthrow the Statute.

If they do, it isn't shown in the books, in my opinion. Dumbledore seems to be in satisfied awe of magic, and Voldemort is a skilled manipulator of magic, but shows repeatedly a lack of understanding.

Voldemort's lack of understanding was in a particular branch of magic which consequently kept tripping him up. He did not understand it while Dumbledore did. I'm not sure why you get the impression that Dumbledore doesn't understand magic. He is always depicted as someone who is extremely competant at it. How could he be so without knowing how it worked ? It was his understanding of it that allowed him to invent the secret method of communication using patronuses, guess that Harry could have a soul bit in him, the nature of the connection between him and Voldemort, predict the consequences of Voldemort taking Harry's blood, come up with a theory on why Harry's wand broke Lucius' one. Voldemort tampered with the "deepest laws of magic" according to Dumbledore, so there is some body of knowledge there. I think magical theory is also mentioned somewhere in the books.

In the soul. This comes from Lupin describing the Dementor's Kiss:

I didn't read this to mean that the memories were held in the soul, more that you lose access to them. The soul/consciousness is the software while the brain is the hardware for example. Jo also gives the impression that muggles would end up in the same vegetative state if kissed by a Dementor. Dudley was affected just like Harry. We'd likely have a better understanding of ourselves if we had access to these dementors.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

I don't think it will work that way. The wizards are not going to take over the muggle industries. Unless they try to do so by force, which is a whole different issue. It will take quite a while for the magical community to learn our tech.

IMO the magical commmunity living with the muggle one will not be all that different with the exception that they wouldn't need to hide. IMO the fear that muggles would bug them frequently is exaggerated. We don't bug every doctor we see to treat us or every mechanic to fix our cars. We are also quite capable of replicating or mimicing some of the magic that is shown. We can have our own Marauders Map by sticking people with GPS trackers, rewatch scenes similiar to the pensieve by wearing contact lenses with cameras, mimic certain spells by voice controlling devices, attach a bionic arm similiar to Wormtail, 3D print certain stuff to make up for our lack of conjuring ability and all these are things that are possible now. We are researching a lot of really interesting stuff (self repairing materials, programmable nano-devices that can change shape etc). So, I don't think it would be a completely one sided relationship.

As I see it, wizards being forced to live underground is going to keep causing tensions. As it is, they believe they are better than muggles and having their freedom curtailed is IMO going to breed resentment. Sooner or later, someone with the brains and the drive to make things happen will decide that this is not how the status quo should be. I don't think Dumbledore was the first or the last person to have ideas to overthrow the Statute.

Dumbledore's desire to overthrow the Statute was something he regretted and looked back upon as selfish and greedy.

Obviously, nobody can predict exactly how the future would pan out, but certainly in JKR's view, removing the Statute would result in dependency and hostility, not egalitarianism and symbiosis.

Voldemort's lack of understanding was in a particular branch of magic which consequently kept tripping him up. He did not understand it while Dumbledore did. I'm not sure why you get the impression that Dumbledore doesn't understand magic. He is always depicted as someone who is extremely competant at it. How could he be so without knowing how it worked ?

I'm trying to distinguish between understanding how to use something and understanding why it works the way it does. Many professional race car drivers would be completely unable to fix their cars if something went wrong, for example. I definitely get the impression that where Dumbledore's perspective differs from Voldemort's is that while Voldemort believes himself to be master and commander of magic, Dumbledore sees it as something to be respected, and sees it as certainly greater and more complex than himself. I believe this feeling comes from a limit to the understandability of magic.

I'm not arguing that he doesn't understand how magic works, how it can be manipulated, how it can be traced and found, but rather that, as much as the next magician, he doesn't know why he has it, why Mrs. Figg doesn't, etc. To be able to discover this would be true understanding of magic, in my opinion.

I didn't read this to mean that the memories were held in the soul, more that you lose access to them. The soul/consciousness is the software while the brain is the hardware for example. Jo also gives the impression that muggles would end up in the same vegetative state if kissed by a Dementor. Dudley was affected just like Harry. We'd likely have a better understanding of ourselves if we had access to these dementors.

Well, I would argue that it isn't confirmed what exactly would happen to a muggle, simply for my own purposes of suspension of disbelief. What is confirmed is that for a wizard, the brain does not seem to be responsible for what, with our Muggle science, it has been found to be responsible withing Muggle brains. If a Muggle brain is functioning and working properly, there will be no issues accessing memories from the brain- that is really what our brain is for, after all. I would point out that there is no distinction between the process of retrieving a memory and the memory itself- the memory is the process, which is performed by the brain.

[wolfbrother]

Originally Posted by willfitz

Dumbledore's desire to overthrow the Statute was something he regretted and looked back upon as selfish and greedy.

Responded in the Albus Dumbledore thread.

Obviously, nobody can predict exactly how the future would pan out, but certainly in JKR's view, removing the Statute would result in dependency and hostility, not egalitarianism and symbiosis.

I think there would most definitely be a massive shock if the wizards suddenly popped out for everyone to see. To be honest, I'm not sure if it can be done peacefully and that is probably what Jo means.

I'm trying to distinguish between understanding how to use something and understanding why it works the way it does. Many professional race car drivers would be completely unable to fix their cars if something went wrong, for example. I definitely get the impression that where Dumbledore's perspective differs from Voldemort's is that while Voldemort believes himself to be master and commander of magic, Dumbledore sees it as something to be respected, and sees it as certainly greater and more complex than himself. I believe this feeling comes from a limit to the understandability of magic.

I'm not arguing that he doesn't understand how magic works, how it can be manipulated, how it can be traced and found, but rather that, as much as the next magician, he doesn't know why he has it, why Mrs. Figg doesn't, etc. To be able to discover this would be true understanding of magic, in my opinion.

Good racers would know what was under the hood of their cars and how it would affect the car's performance.

Whether or not Dumbledore or the magical community knew about the origin of magic at the time of the books, it would be a research topic and they would likely find the answer at some point in the future. What I'm trying to say is that magic in HP can be researched and studied to find answers.

Well, I would argue that it isn't confirmed what exactly would happen to a muggle, simply for my own purposes of suspension of disbelief. What is confirmed is that for a wizard, the brain does not seem to be responsible for what, with our Muggle science, it has been found to be responsible withing Muggle brains. If a Muggle brain is functioning and working properly, there will be no issues accessing memories from the brain- that is really what our brain is for, after all. I would point out that there is no distinction between the process of retrieving a memory and the memory itself- the memory is the process, which is performed by the brain.

Well, we do know that both muggles and wizards are affected the same way by dementors. They force you to replay your worst experiences so it suggests that they utilize similar methods.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by willfitz

But still, it isn't disbelieved strongly enough to be ridiculous. People like Umbridge were still willing to believe it as an excuse.

Probably will come down to a difference of opinion but to me, Umbridge didn't really believe muggleborns stole magic, she was using that statement as a way to further her own career and gain more power and prestige which seems to be her MO. She's all about keeping people under her thumb and doing anything in order to keep them there so I obsolute think she would tout a flagrantly stupid statement as fact in order to further her ambitions.

I'm fine with accepting that. I just don't know how they would go about it, and whether they'll ever truly get to the bottom of it.

I don't know how to even begin doing genetic research, medical research or any kind of biological research; I watch TV shows where they're doing brain scans on people to prove one thing or another and they show the brain scan, point to the orange colored area and tell me "see? This means this person has the brain of a serial killer!" but to me I see pretty colors.

The point is that even though we lowly muggles don't know how to go about researching where magic comes from or why it develops or whether its tied to a gene or a chromosome or whether it comes from a third base pair (adenine, thymine, guanine, and cytosine being the regular muggle ones, wizards might have two additional bases which makes them magical) or whatever, I'm sure that in the HP wizarding world there are wizards who would know how to go about this research.

[merrymarge]

I thought the Dept. of Mysteries was for research and also St. Mungo's.

[SeverusSnapeHBP]

I do believe that they use magic too much.

For example, a simple phone call or text messaging beats the speed of owls and patronuses any day. I understand that HP was written during the 90s and into the 2000s, but either way, muggle technology even during that time was faster than magic. Instead of trying to kill Voldemort with Avada Kedavra, I'm sure that a gun would've done the job at the end when all his Horcuxes were destroyed. With his "out of touchness" with the muggle world, I'm not entirely sure he would've ever seen it coming.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by SeverusSnapeHBP

I do believe that they use magic too much.

For example, a simple phone call or text messaging beats the speed of owls and patronuses any day. I understand that HP was written during the 90s and into the 2000s, but either way, muggle technology even during that time was faster than magic. Instead of trying to kill Voldemort with Avada Kedavra, I'm sure that a gun would've done the job at the end when all his Horcuxes were destroyed. With his "out of touchness" with the muggle world, I'm not entirely sure he would've ever seen it coming.

In places that swim in magical people or have absorbed magic itself like Hogwarts electronic gadgets like cell phones wouldn't even work; they would have to leave the Hogwarts grounds and maybe get a mile or more away before their phone would stop freakin' out because of the magical interference.

As for just shooting Voldemort with a gun, for the most part it seems like once someone joins the magical world they kind of shun all things muggle, even if they're a muggleborn. They no longer use ballpoint pens, they use quill pens and bottles of ink which are much more cumbersome to carry around as the ink can spill, they don't use any kind of electronic devices, with the exception of wizard wireless radios which they have to rebuild in order to pick up the wireless network's signal, they even give up their own culture and adopt a completely new one (the wizarding world's culture). They also seem to either believe that magic is better so they don't use things like guns, they don't know how to use guns in the first place or a gunshot wound could simply be healed magically anyway so it wouldn't actually have killed Voldemort at all. Hagrid shows a bit of his derision about wizards dying by muggle methods when Harry tells him his aunt and uncle told him his parent died in a car crash to which Hagrid says something like "You think a car crash could kill Lily and James Potter?" like wizards are above dying in such conventional ways.

[ShadowSonic]

Dobby and Rowena Ravenclaw both died from knife wounds, so I don't think Hagrid meant "Wizards don't die like that!". He just was offended because of how Jame and Lily are famed for how they died and didn't like them being associated with such a common death.

Heck, the first owner of the Elder Wand died from being stabbed while he slept didn't he?

[SeverusSnapeHBP]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

As for just shooting Voldemort with a gun, for the most part it seems like once someone joins the magical world they kind of shun all things muggle, even if they're a muggleborn.

Not really. They use toilets, radios, eye-glasses, passenger trains, and notebooks, all of which are muggle-created things, even if radios are all magically modified.

Even then, using a broom to get out of Hogwarts "magic range" to make a phone call would probably be quicker then sending an owl to someone (of course it depends on the distance, but if they're close by, you could just fly there yourself).
Also there's the fact that no other location aside from Hogwarts is really directly stated to have magic that disrupts electronics either, so calling the Dursley's house from the Burrow (how likely, right?) would probably be faster than an owl either way.

Hagrid shows a bit of his derision about wizards dying by muggle methods when Harry tells him his aunt and uncle told him his parent died in a car crash to which Hagrid says something like "You think a car crash could kill Lily and James Potter?" like wizards are above dying in such conventional ways

That's speculative. Greyback was taken out by one of Trelawney's crystal balls, and I'm pretty it wasn't because it was a magical object.

It's possible that some wizards are good enough at magic to generally avoid getting killed by conventional means, but that doesn't mean that they're immune to it all together.

[merrymarge]

I keep changing my mind!! sometimes I think yes they do use too much magic, sometimes I think don't.

[wolfbrother]

I don't think it really matters whether they use it too much or not. Magic seems to be in infinite supply so there would be no need for them to curtail its use.