Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

[ShadowSonic]

I thought Sirius said that Bellatrix was one of Snape's friends at school?

[mirrormere]

Not sure that Bellatrix was at school the same time Snape was. The Potter wiki has her attending Hogwarts in 1962. Snape would have been about 2 years old at the time, if that info is correct.

[arithmancer]

Sirius said Snape was part of a "Slytherin gang" which included Bella (and her future husband). This is not the same as them getting along, though. After all, one could consider they were still in a "Slytherin gang" together as adults, and there is clearly little love lost between them, though they preserve a surface courtesy.

[ShadowSonic]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

Not sure that Bellatrix was at school the same time Snape was. The Potter wiki has her attending Hogwarts in 1962. Snape would have been about 2 years old at the time, if that info is correct.

You know about JK Rowling and math, right?

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

Not sure that Bellatrix was at school the same time Snape was. The Potter wiki has her attending Hogwarts in 1962. Snape would have been about 2 years old at the time, if that info is correct.

That appears to be based on JKR's auction tapestry which indicates that Bellatrix was born in 1951. I'd never bothered to do the math; that is interesting, isn't it?

Of course, that's the same tapestry with 13 yr old fathers . . .

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by snapes_witch

That appears to be based on JKR's auction tapestry which indicates that Bellatrix was born in 1951. I'd never bothered to do the math; that is interesting, isn't it?

Of course, that's the same tapestry with 13 yr old fathers . . .

It's good to know JKR is human!

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by arithmancer

Sirius said Snape was part of a "Slytherin gang" which included Bella (and her future husband). This is not the same as them getting along, though. After all, one could consider they were still in a "Slytherin gang" together as adults, and there is clearly little love lost between them, though they preserve a surface courtesy.

Where does it say Bellatrix was apart of Snape's gang of slytherins? I thought it included people like Mulciber, Avery, Rosier and Wilkes. I don't remember Bellatrix being specifically called out as a member of that gang.
HP Wiki > Severus Snape > Death Eaters section
HP Wiki > Wilkes > Biography > arly Life
Etc., etc. for Rosier, Mulciber and Avery...

Though, confusingly, under Bellatrix's Wiki page it mentions that she and Lucius were also apart of that gang. I wish i had my books here so I could look up the quote...
HP Wiki > Bellatrix Lestrange > Rodolfus Lestrange

If we take Bellatrix's birth year from the family tree, she would have been at hogwarts (depending on the month of her birth) between 1962-63 and 1969-70, so she either just missed Snape by a year or was a seventh year when he was a first year meaning they were probably not especially close even if they belonged to the same "gang" (17 year olds rarely make close friends with 11 year old kids).

[ignisia]

Here it is:

GoF "Sirius held up his fingers, and began ticking off names. 'Rosier and Wilkes- they were both killed by Aurors the year before Voldemort fell. The Lestranges- they're a married couple- they're in Azkaban. Avery- from what I've heard he wormed his way out of trouble by saying he'd been acting under the Imperius curse- he's still at large... And Snape's certainly clever and cunning enough to keep himself out of trouble.'"

Avery's friendship with Severus is confirmed by TPT. Not sure how probable it is that Rosier and Wilkes were his friends, since I don't think their ages were ever released. We know Severus and Lucius had at least some contact at school because he welcomed him into Slytherin when he was sorted, but I have my doubts that if Bella was born in 1951 she and Severus knew each other or even hung out together at school. I think Sirius might be exaggerating or generalizing when he mentions both Lestranges.

[cool_chick_div]

Snape fans, please don't bite my head off for this but in this reminds me of the chapter Padfoot Returns in Goblet of Fire where I remember Sirius saying that Snape knew more dark curses that seventh year. It was something like that. It shows that he was into the dark arts and probably used the spells at some point. How else was Sirius to know Snape knew dark curses. Now, Sirius could be exaggerating but it is canon and all we have to go on. Maybe he used those curses when retaliating against the marauders. It certainly made me see things a lot different from a lot of other people who think that Snape was an innocent victim who did no wrong while the marauders were evil and horrible and Lily was mean to end their friendship. I think both parties gave as good as they got. I think Snape's Worst Memory is one of many ad some may have Snape as an instigator. It was not one-sided.

[ShadowSonic]

It may not have been totally clear, since Sirius was the only source we have (and he's biased) but Snape wasn't some innocent abused guy. I'm not sure, but I think he was also a bully as well who hexed (or helped hex) other students like the Marauders did.

[arithmancer]

Originally Posted by cool_chick_div

Snape fans, please don't bite my head off for this but in this reminds me of the chapter Padfoot Returns in Goblet of Fire where I remember Sirius saying that Snape knew more dark curses that seventh year. It was something like that. It shows that he was into the dark arts and probably used the spells at some point. How else was Sirius to know Snape knew dark curses.

Sirius says Snape knew them as a first year. This in itself makes me doubt his veracity. Years later when Lily and Sev are having arguments, she is complaining of his choice of friends, not his own use of Dark Magic. Lily could hardly avoid knowing her best friend in first year went around using Dark Magic all the time, if Sirius knew it...

[OldMotherCrow]

People, Sirius never said Snape started school knowing Dark Magic. Must be that quote in GoF when Sirius talks about Snape coming to school knowing jinxes or somesuch. I'll look it up later. Sirius did say in OotP that Snape was up to eyeballs in Dark Magic while at school.

[cool_chick_div]

I don't know if it is completely biased. Its more of an exaggeration. Snape probably knew some Dark spell and used it a couple times. An example would be the weak, non-verbal sectumsempra he used on James in Snape's Worst Memory. Or was that a non-verbal cutting hex. Not really sure which it was. But I think Sirius was exaggerating a bit. I'm sure he used some spells but definitely not all the time.

As for Lily, I got the impression that their friendship was going downhill and it appeared to me that the mudblood incident was the last straw. Maybe she knew about the dark curses maybe she didn't. For the sake of their friendship she probably made some excuses for Snape to her friends and tried to talk some sense into Snape like when she tried to discourage his friendship with Avery and Mulciber. I hardly doubt she would truly believe the marauders' accusations about Snape. It may have planted some doubt about Snape but she still stuck with him till he called her a mudblood.

[LyannaS]

Originally Posted by cool_chick_div

As for Lily, I got the impression that their friendship was going downhill and it appeared to me that the mudblood incident was the last straw.

I think you're right. Lily was very concerned at Snape's choice of friends, and the things they were doing. Still, she came to Snape's help when James out-jinxed him. Snape's flinging the "mudblood" insult at her must have hurt all the more. As you say, it was the last straw.

We never learn the details of what Mulciber, Avery et al. were doing to other students, [staff edit] Still, Snape stuck with them, despite Lily's remonstrations. That would not make her very happy with her friend Severus.

[MerryLore]

Originally Posted by LyannaS

We never learn the details of what Mulciber, Avery et al. were doing to other students, but it's my impression that SWM, bad as it was, was not on the same level.

True - we really don't know what Avery and Mulciber did, other than cast a hex. We do see an example in a different situation where Ginny cast a bat-bogey hex, and Slughorn was so impressed he invited her to join the Slug Club. My personal opinion is that Snape saw Avery and Mulciber's hex on the same level as the one Ginny cast, and perhaps that's why he didn't take it so seriously.

[cool_chick_div]

Makes me really wish we had more information on the Marauders and Snape's time.

Snape's worst Memory was truly horrible but from what Lily said I got the impression that Mulciber and Avery were much worse.

[staff edit]From what Remus said Levicorpus was popular at that time. He said somthing like, "You could not go anywhere without being hoisted by your ankle." It seemed that in the magical world Levicorpus was considered a funny prank.[staff edit]I'm not trying to reduce how horrible it was but I just think the Levicorpus part wasn't that bad. It wasn't considered horrible back then. It could be funny like with Ron. Maybe that's why Lily almost smiled. The spell was in fashion and was widely used.

But I guess the fact that it was used on an enemy makes it all the more worse. I do feel sorry for Snape but I don't see him as some innocent guy. After all he says Mulciber and Avery were only having a laugh with Mary MacDonald.

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by cool_chick_div

Makes me really wish we had more information on the Marauders and Snape's time.

Snape's worst Memory was truly horrible but from what Lily said I got the impression that Mulciber and Avery were much worse.

I think James' 'prank' on Snape in SWM got out of hand. From what Remus said Levicorpus was popular at that time. He said somthing like, "You could not go anywhere without being hoisted by your ankle." It seemed that in the magical world Levicorpus was considered a funny prank. When James' used scourgify and put soap bubbles in Snape's mouth I considered that completely out of hand. I'm not trying to reduce how horrible it was but I just think the Levicorpus part wasn't that bad. It wasn't considered horrible back then. It could be funny like with Ron. Maybe that's why Lily almost smiled. The spell was in fashion and was widely used.

But I guess the fact that it was used on an enemy makes it all the more worse. I do feel sorry for Snape but I don't see him as some innocent guy. After all he says Mulciber and Avery were only having a laugh with Mary MacDonald.

Impedimentia is the curse Snape is under when Lily confronts James. He didn't cast Levicorpus until after Sev insulted Lily and she'd walked away. It's inferred that he's going to depants Snape, but Harry's pulled out of the pensieve before that happens.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by snapes_witch

Impedimentia is the curse Snape is under when Lily confronts James. He didn't cast Levicorpus until after Sev insulted Lily and she'd walked away. It's inferred that he's going to depants Snape, but Harry's pulled out of the pensieve before that happens.

Snape is Levicorpus'd in front of Lily:

SWM 'I wouldn't go out with you if it was a choice between you and the giant squid,' said Lily. 'Bad luck, Prongs,' said Sirius briskly, and turned back to Snape. 'OI!' But too late; Snape had directed his wand straight at James; there was a flash of light and a gash appeared on the side of James's face, spattering his robes with blood. James whirled about: a second flash of light later, Snape was hanging upside-down in the air, his robes falling over his head to reveal skinny, pallid legs and a pair of greying underpants. Many people in the small crowd cheered; Sirius, James and Wormtail roared with laughter. Lily, whose furious expression had twitched for an instant as though she was going to smile, said, 'Let him down!'

She tries to help him not only by coming to his rescue when he is first being bullied but then by rescuing him from the humiliation of hanging upside down in the air with his underwear showing. He insults her right after he's let down by James:

SWM James sighed deeply, then turned to Snape and muttered the counter-curse. 'There you go,' he said, as Snape struggled to his feet. 'You're lucky Evans was here, Snivellus -' 'I don't need help from filthy little Mudbloods like her!' Lily blinked. 'Fine,' she said coolly. 'I won't bother in the future. And I'd wash your pants if I were you, Snivellus.'

For discussion on why Lily smiles, maybe let's go to Lily's thread?

[Hes]

I am going to post this because I've already seen the first signs that this is spinning out of control.

Originally Posted by Moriath

Greetings!

This rule has been in effect for years but it was a bit like England and its constitution - there was nothing in writing. So the staff decided to amend this:

Any comparisons of Snape and the Marauders that lead to the condemnation of one character/one group of characters over the other are not allowed in any of the threads in Legilimency Studies (and to a lesser extent the Stone).

To spell it out, if your post alludes to or spells out that, in the cage match Snape vs. Marauders, one character/one group is to blame for everything that has ever gone wrong in the series and also bears the blame for world hunger, this post will get you in trouble. This is in line with REVISED: Character Bashing/Worship: aka Shades of Gray and our hot zone policy. And to bring it down to one line:

Do not, under any circumstances, indulge in the blame game.

This rule will be part of the hot zone policy and violating it may get you banned.

[TenderHooligan]

I find Snape a fascinating character and perhaps the most three-dimensional besides Harry in the entire series. That's not to say I actually like the guy or would want to be friends with him, but I am very glad we are given a character like him who does so much good while still being a jerk and ultimately is motivated by selfish reasons. That's very believable to me and far more relatable than the standard good guy who 'does good' because 'it's the right thing to do.' He's neither wholly innocent nor wholly guilty for how he turned out, a realistic mixture of nature and nurture in shaping an individual.

This is actually an idea I put into a fanfiction I wrote about Ron coming to terms with accepting Snape as a 'good guy' and why he'd accept Harry giving Snape's name to his second son, but I think the opinions are based in canon:

Snape was a man who ultimately had to go against his nature to be selfish and cruel to become the man who served as a double agent, who put his life on the line every day after Voldemort's return, who in his own way committed to his life to guard the son of his worst enemy, who ultimately died knowing he could never fix his deepest regret or experience any sort of reward for his trials. From the conversation he has with Dumbledore about how Harry must eventually be told he must die so that Voldemort can be defeated, I infer what a tragedy his life must've felt like. Everything he did for (at least) seven years was to keep Lily's son safe. And in the end, he died believing he had to 'fail' in order for the light side to 'win'. To me, that was ultimately putting his selfish desire and to go against his very nature to do right by Lily to serve Dumbledore and do his duty and why I ultimately admire him as an individual without actually liking the man.