Hermione Granger: Character Analysis

[HRW]

I don't think Hermione would've told Ginny anything but I don't think it's too farfetched to assume that Hermione and Krum kissed. That does not however equate to Hermione having any kind of feelings for Krum though.

In many ways the Hermione-Krum and Ron-Lavender situations are similar. Hermione was hurt at what Ron said about going out with trolls which added to her insecurity of feeling she was not all that pretty. So when Krum asked her out she was delighted and it made her feel better about herself. Similarly I think Ron wasn't too happy at her not trusting his quidditch ability (amongst other things). And when Lavender threw herself at him and praised him (something Hermione never did) he was more than happy enough to comply. But we do know even though he did care for Lavender, he had no romantic interest in her. Hermione does specifically point out to Ron that she and Viktor are just friends on more than one occasion (to encourage Ron I presume) so I think it's very safe to assume she had no feelings for him.

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by HRW

I don't think Hermione would've told Ginny anything but I don't think it's too farfetched to assume that Hermione and Krum kissed. That does not however equate to Hermione having any kind of feelings for Krum though.

In many ways the Hermione-Krum and Ron-Lavender situations are similar. Hermione was hurt at what Ron said about going out with trolls which added to her insecurity of feeling she was not all that pretty. So when Krum asked her out she was delighted and it made her feel better about herself. Similarly I think Ron wasn't too happy at her not trusting his quidditch ability (amongst other things). And when Lavender threw herself at him and praised him (something Hermione never did) he was more than happy enough to comply. But we do know even though he did care for Lavender, he had no romantic interest in her. Hermione does specifically point out to Ron that she and Viktor are just friends on more than one occasion (to encourage Ron I presume) so I think it's very safe to assume she had no feelings for him.

No feelings beyond a platonic friendship, of course.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by GingerCat1

I think it is possible they kissed but it would have been Krum who initated it and i personally don't think it would be something that Hermione would have thought was that good. I think they would have kissed a maximum of a few times and every time Hermione would think that she wished it was Ron she was kissing (i just think the butterflies in Hermione's stomach would not really be there if Krum was kissing her).

I don't think it's necessarily true that when Hermione & Krum kissed that Hermione was thinking about Ron. Hermione isn't the sort of person to stay in a dating relationship where she's thinking about another person when she's with someone else. More than likely it just helped her to realize that while she liked Krum, he wasn't the one for her. From the descriptions we do see in the books between Hermione and Victor, he's very attentive to her and she is very nice to him (though not on the level Victor would like). He even asks her to come visit him over the summer -- we never know if she did or not -- but it's clear by the next term that while Hermione's still writing to him, she truthfully tells Ron and Harry that he's just a friend.

Originally Posted by GingerCat1

If Hermione had kissed Krum more than a couple of times then she and Krum would have been in a relationship and Krum would have been much more sure of where Hermione stood and would not have needed to ask Harry about the nature of his relationship with Hermione.

Krum asked Harry about Hermione's relationship with Harry (not Ron or anyone else) because Hermione talked so much about Harry in their conversations together. Krum was doing what he thought would be the honorable thing between guys; he obviously had enough respect for Harry to check and make sure that Harry & Hermione weren't in a relationship. I don't think it had anything to do with "where Hermione stood" at that point.

As I noted above, Krum was still pursuing the relationship at the end of the school year, asking her to visit during the summer. My guess is that she may have visited Krum, wanting to end the romantic side of the relationship in person, not in a letter. That's more like Hermione in my view. She didn't answer Ron's question about whether she went or not, because it would be just one more thing that would get in the way of a romantic relationship with Ron. And she was right, look how he reacted to the thought Victor & Hermione had kissed two years ago.

[GingerCat1]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I don't think it's necessarily true that when Hermione & Krum kissed that Hermione was thinking about Ron. Hermione isn't the sort of person to stay in a dating relationship where she's thinking about another person when she's with someone else. More than likely it just helped her to realize that while she liked Krum, he wasn't the one for her. From the descriptions we do see in the books between Hermione and Victor, he's very attentive to her and she is very nice to him (though not on the level Victor would like). He even asks her to come visit him over the summer -- we never know if she did or not -- but it's clear by the next term that while Hermione's still writing to him, she truthfully tells Ron and Harry that he's just a friend.


Krum asked Harry about Hermione's relationship with Harry (not Ron or anyone else) because Hermione talked so much about Harry in their conversations together. Krum was doing what he thought would be the honorable thing between guys; he obviously had enough respect for Harry to check and make sure that Harry & Hermione weren't in a relationship. I don't think it had anything to do with "where Hermione stood" at that point.

As I noted above, Krum was still pursuing the relationship at the end of the school year, asking her to visit during the summer. My guess is that she may have visited Krum, wanting to end the romantic side of the relationship in person, not in a letter. That's more like Hermione in my view. She didn't answer Ron's question about whether she went or not, because it would be just one more thing that would get in the way of a romantic relationship with Ron. And she was right, look how he reacted to the thought Victor & Hermione had kissed two years ago.

Hermione is not the sort to lead a guy on so i think that while she and Krum may have kissed once or twice after that Hermione implied to Krum that she only wanted to be friends and the reason why Krum had that conversation with Harry was Krum thought Harry was the reason why Hermione only wanted to be friends or why Hermione did not seem particularly interested in persuing a relationship with him. Also based on the fact that Hermione was at Grimmauld Place quite some time before Harry arrived and she would have spent some times with her parents before that i highly highly doubt Hermione would have gone to Bulgaria. Not only would Hermione not want to go because she does not want to lead Krum on but even if she did want to go there is no way her parents would have let her.

Also looking at the Harry Potter timeline 4th year ends on June 27th and on the 1st of August in 5th year Harry notes that Hermione and Ron are clearly in the same place and he also notes from memory that they seemed to have been in the same location for quite some time.

[TenderHooligan]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

I was actually referring to the time frame between the Yule Ball and the second task. Rita was obviously interested in Krum and Hermione because she wrote that article. Specifically, Rita was targeting Hermione at that point because Hermione called her out for her tabloid style article about Hagrid in Hogsmeade. That's why her article focused on accusing Hermione of stringing both boys along and breaking Harry's heart. Rita was at the Yule Ball - hidden as a beetle. She was around the castle as a beetle at various times trying to get any information for her stories. And she was at the second task - hiding in Hermione's hair as a beetle.

Yes, but at the Yule Ball, she was out in the garden spying on Hagrid like Ron and Harry. Rita being around =/= her able to account for every single second of Hermione's life.

We know nothing happened after the second task because Hermione spent all of her free time helping Harry prepare for the third task. Not to mention Krum confronting Harry about his relationship with Hermione - which proves that their relationship was not romantic at all, IMO. Krum wanted it to be, but Hermione did not and Krum assumed that was because of Harry from what we're shown.

There is nothing in the text that would suggest that Hermione ever met with Krum outside of seeing him in the library, their date for the Yule Ball, and by the lake after the second task. She didn't eat meals with him - she sat at the Gryffindor table while Krum sat at the Slytherin table. She didn't invite him to Hogsmeade - she went with Harry and Ron. And whatever free time she had was spent either studying or helping Harry with the tournament. All of Hermione's time was accounted for so it's not difficult to figure out when and where she spent time with Krum, IMO.

There is something to suggest that she did meet him. Three in fact: Krum's expression of feelings after the second task, Krum's confrontation with Harry which shows that he had not given up and so had almost certainly spoken to her at some point in the intervening 3 months, and the fact that Krum says that Hermione spoke of Harry often.

Also, the third task wasn't even announced right away so there was plenty of time in between where Hermione wasn't helping Harry 24/7. In fact, the Hermione/Rita confrontation didn't even happen until mid-January. Before then, Rite didn't even have a reason to pay attention to Hermione, so she might not have known or noticed Krum's Yule Ball date was the same girl she'd said was Harry's girlfriend. She certainly didn't look like Hermione at the Ball. Heck, Rita might not've put it together until the second task.

And even then, 'targeting' Hermione is going a little far. Yes, she was in Hermione's hair, but Harry hadn't even emerged from the lake yet, so what else was she going to pay attention to considering she'd ignored Cedric's existence as a champion up to that point and was completely uninterested in Fleur.

They knew where Hermione was when Krum asked her to the ball - she was in the library. That was brought up on page with Ron asking her if Krum asked her in the library and Hermione confirming it. The library can be ruled out as a place for students to snog, IMO. Madame Pince would never have allowed it - not to mention the fact that other students and Krum's fangirls would be there to witness it. The time Hermione spent with Krum in the library would not have involved kissing.

No, they did not know this. Ron guessed and Hermione confirmed it. They didn't have this time accounted for, it was merely a safe assumption based on how much time Hermione spent there on school and S.P.E.W. It's not like Ron pinpointed the exact date and time of the asking. In fact, we the readers have no idea when Krum actually asked Hermione or when she might've accepted except that it was obviously before Ron and Harry asked their first choices. So tell me, if this is an event we know for certain happened but cannot pinpoint the exact date, why is it required we pinpoint the exact date of a kiss or handholding or even another conversation?

Finding a time and place for kissing would require a private location without witnesses - to fit with nobody knowing about it - unexplained absences with the boys not knowing where Hermione was - i.e. going to the library because that's where they thought she was and discovering she was not there or, alternatively, instances with Hermione showing up late, saying she was with Krum, and blushing. To truly support Ginny's claim there would also need to be evidence on page that included Hermione spending time with Krum that could be viewed as romantic - as opposed to studying in the library. Harry and Ron spotting them strolling on the grounds holding hands, Hermione inviting Krum to go to Hogsmeade with her as a date, the two of them sitting together during dinner while holding hands, gazing into each others eyes, etc... That's the type of evidence that would be required in GOF for Ginny's claim to have any support at all, IMO.

That's not what is presented in GOF though. There are no unexplained absences for Hermione in GOF - they always knew where Hermione was if she wasn't with them. Hermione was never good at lying and Ron always knew when she did so I would say that she was always exactly where she told them she would be when she was not with them - in the library. Outside of their one date at the ball, they never see Hermione with Krum in a romantic way - nor does she or anyone else ever mention such a thing. Hermione doesn't demonstrate any romantic interest in Krum at all - she is always very matter-of-fact when she talks about him and adamant that they are nothing more than friends. That's the type of relationship Krum wanted to have with Hermione, but she simply was not interested and just wanted to be friends from what we're shown

Just because Ron's not saying "Where's Hermione" every other page like he did in PoA doesn't mean they always knew where she was. The book skips days and weeks at a time which are completely unaccounted for by the reader. Again, she doesn't even have to lie to anyone. Hermione can run off toward the library like she often does without a word, the boys make an assumption, and Hermione goes and meets Krum. Whether it's actually in the library, in a broom closet, out on the grounds or wherever, I don't really care. We never see Ginny and Michael snog or Percy and Penelope yet we know it happened so there are certainly ways for students who don't share a common room to get some alone time. And I'm sure Hermione could do it without breaking the rules if Percy managed it as well.

And I see no proof that Hermione had 0 romantic feelings for Krum, except her words "He's just a pen pal" to Ron and we all know Hermione DOES lie to Ron quite often or hide the truth, especially when it comes to her romantic feelings. Hermione was secretive about her relationship with Krum from the moment it was brought up. I have no trouble believing she continued to be secretive about it as a result of her embarrassment, her usually private nature, and not wanting to upset Ron (except when she did want to upset him of course). There's nothing in the text to support that she only liked him as a friend.

I didn't say Rita knew everything that was going on in their lives. However, I do think she would have found out if Hermione and Krum had actually kissed because that would not have been a secret at Hogwarts. Everyone would have been talking about it if that were the case because Krum was famous and always had a gaggle of giggling girls following him around. If they had been kissing, someone would have seen them at some point and that would have been part of the gossip about them.

No, you see in the books these are supposed to be real people. In the books, a kiss isn't all that super important. You claim that Ginny merely assumed Hermione and Krum kissed. Why wouldn't everyone else assume it as well? I know I would. So if they were already assuming they had kissed, why would it be a big deal if they actually saw them kiss and confirmed it?

And no-one knew Krum had asked Hermione (besides Ginny). I don't get what's so hard about believing they found half a dozen private moments over six months when they'd already shown themselves capable of it on their first meeting. And did not always have a gaggle of giggle girls following him around. After the Yule Ball they are barely mentioned and after the second task/Rita's article they are dropped completely. Maybe they were still following him, but it was not noted in the book. And considering Krum's romantic circumstances appeared to have changed, I think there's good evidence that they didn't behave the same way they did before the Ball.

As I said above, Rita's target with that article was Hermione - not Harry. She used Harry as a means to sell the article, but her goal was to hurt Hermione because of their confrontation in Hogsmeade. I think that makes it even less likely for Hermione to have been kissing Krum in secret because Rita was specifically following her around during that time frame to try and get anything she could use against Hermione in her article.

And before that she was concentrating on Harry, yet didn't nail down everything happening in his life or even doing a good job of digging up his past 3 years. Rita is not perfect. She is not the all-seeing Album Dumbledore. Yes, she wanted to get back at Hermione a bit, but it wasn't like she hated her the same way we see in OotP after being imprisoned and blackmailed. Hermione had made a few comments to her in Hogsmeade. That's it. I'm sorry if I refuse to believe a woman in her 40s would devote every second of her day to tailing a fifteen year old girl when much of those days' freetime would've been spent in the library. She was still a professional with a public interest in Harry and wouldn't sacrifice everything for a minor personal vendetta toward Hermione.

There is no indication of Hermione ever taking a stroll on the grounds with Krum in the text. People would have seen them and that would have been part of the gossip - particularly after Rita's article. Again, Hermione spent her free time with Harry and Ron - particularly in the latter part of the book when they were helping him prepare for the third task. The only time she ever spent with Krum was in the library, their date for the ball, and by the lake after the second task - and they were not alone during any of that from what we're shown. All of Hermione's time is accounted for in the text so it's not difficult to determine when and where Hermione saw Krum, IMO.

Why would people see them? Harry's the only one who notices Sirius and Crookshanks on the grounds in PoA, the trio are the only one's to notice Hagrid's return in OotP. I seriously doubt students are just sitting there glued to the windows of Hogwarts. And even if they were, I doubt they would've been able to make out their identities if they were down by the Durmstrang ship. And please, all of Hermione's time is NOT accounted for. No one's time is all accounted for because JKR doesn't write in real-time. Pretty much no author does. And the examples of locations are just that: examples. I have no idea where or when they kissed because they didn't tell us. But we do know other students kiss all the time outside the common rooms so I certainly know it's more than possible.

Hermione has never spent all her freetime with the boys. Never has and never will. And again, just because Hermione is incredibly important to us doesn't mean every other person in the books cares all that much. The Slytherins had already badmouthed her for the first article. They have no reason to put forth extra effort to follow her around. The school saw her and Krum at the Ball, and most probably realized she and Harry aren't dating after seeing them hang out together every day after the article. I would probably assume a lucky girl like Hermione would want to kiss the famous Quidditch player if I was a Hogwarts students and I image those who cared felt the same way. Kissing just isn't really the big deal it's made out to be over this debate.

Seeing them sitting or walking together...so what? Even if it happened and someone told Rita, what good is that? Why would she print it? So they very well could've been spotted by other students in the midst of less-amorous activities than snogging and simply not been interesting enough to merit front-page news. Besides, once Rita was banned from the castle, she had to be very careful who she revealed her ability to. So the chances of finding someone she could trust, who had actually witnessed Hermione and Krum together, and actually cared enough to tell a reporter would've been very low.

And who's to say they didn't spend an afternoon in the library with Rita watching, only eventually getting bored when she realizes nothing exciting is going to happen, then walking to the entrance hall together and stepping into an alcove or something for a quick kiss goodnight before they go their separate ways? And if someone IS around, they just don't kiss, Krum (being the gentleman Hermione says he is) understanding it makes Hermione uncomfortable. I'm sure over 4-6 months they'd find at least half a dozen opportunities to kiss unobserved from this strategy alone. And it took me five seconds to think of. I'm sure Hermione could've been a lot more inventive.

Let's put it this way...Harry who has always been much more in the focus of the media, teachers and other students has found plenty of ways to sneak off and away from watchful eyes as shown to us in the books. If he can, Hermione most certainly can.

That is actually what we see with Hermione throughout the series though - it's one of her flaws. She keeps things bottled up and explodes at times because she doesn't talk to anyone about her problems from what we're shown. Not even Harry or Ron - her two best friends.

It is not a fact that Hermione told Ginny she was going to the ball with Krum. All Ginny said to Ron was that Hermione was not lying and it was her business who she was going with. We don't know if Ginny even knew who Hermione's date was at that time or how she found out that Hermione had a date. There is no indication that it was Hermione who told her in the text - Ginny never made that claim and they hadn't even spent any time together as far as we're shown so that is very unlikely, IMO. It's more likely that Neville told Ginny that Hermione turned him down because she already had a date - or Ginny might have been in the library when Krum asked Hermione and witnessed that.

If Ginny didn't know, she could've just said she didn't know. Your way makes it more complicated for no reason whatsoever. And there's nothing to support that Neville is more likely to tell that to Ginny than Hermione considering Ginny and Neville hadn't spoken on-page up to that point. I don't know why you replace a minor assumption with an even bigger one and ask me to believe it instead. And if Ginny witnessed Krum asking Hermione, surely someone else witnessed it as well and would've spread the news. You have been arguing how gossip-y the Halls of Hogwarts are, so surely the news of Krum's date to the ball would've spread as fast as wildfire, eventually reaching Ron's ears.

I don't see anything in the text that would suggest that Hermione ever confided to Ginny about anything. That's why Ginny had no idea that Ron and Hermione liked each other, that Hermione was hurt because of Ron dating Lavender, or even that they were fighting during that time in HBP as far as we're shown.

I would actually put that on the same level as Hermione knowing a few things about Cho and using that to make deductions about Cho's feelings and behavior in OOTP. She had very few facts to go on - mostly information she overheard in the bathroom - so a lot of that was assumption. It is most likely that is what Ginny did regarding her assumption about Hermione and Krum, IMO. She knew they had gone the Yule Ball together and probably knew they wrote each other since Hermione had to share a room with her at Grimmauld Place. Add in Rita's article and all the gossip that created and it's easy to see why Ginny would make that assumption. She didn't hang around with the trio very much at all during that time so she wouldn't have known that Hermione didn't spend any time with Krum outside of the library, their one date, and by the lake after the second task. From Ginny's perspective as an outsider it probably did appear that Hermione was dating Krum - Parvatti made a similar assumption in HBP as well for the same reasons.

Just because you confide in someone about one thing, doesn't mean you have to spill all of your secrets. Again, weren't you arguing about how often Harry lies and keeps secrets, not only from Hermione but from Ron as well, his two biggest confidants? I see no reason Hermione couldn't have discussed Krum with Ginny but never told her about Ron. In fact, it'd be quite weird and unusual if Ginny asked Hermione for advice or Hermione offered it unprompted but Hermione didn't share anything personal as well. I know we see Hermione as the unrewarded helper of Harry all the time, but usually friendship (even casual friendship) is a two-way street.

The difference between what Hermione knows about Cho and Ginny knows about Hermione is that Hr & G are at the very least acquaintances and house mates, whereas nothing connects Hr & Cho. Hermione HAD to overhear things and make assumptions because it was the only way she could know. But it is well within the scope of Ginny's and Hermione's relationship to discuss things, and not only that but to discuss boys in particular.

And I don't know why you think Ginny would be influenced by the article. Harry and Ron thought it all poppycock until Hermione confessed that the part about Krum WAS indeed correct. If Ginny liked Harry like we know she did, it makes more sense to either confront Hermione directly about the article, or to assume all of it was a fabrication.

Actually, thank you for raising this point because in the past I've thought Rita's articles were the perfect catalyst for Ginny and Hermione to talk more seriously. If Ginny had ever had the same insecure suspicions Ron did about H/Hr, I could see her finally having the courage to confront Hermione about them in the face of their articles and their expanded relationship after spending the summer together at the Burrow. Hermione assuring Ginny that she wasn't Harry's girlfriend after the first article could've opened the door to them talking more at school and the discussion of dates before the ball. The second article imo is perfectly timed for Hermione to give her advice to Ginny about pursuing Michael. It's very easy to imagine Hermione giving this advice based on her own experience with a wistful look in her eye without mentioning the name of the boy she herself is trying to move on from while still hoping he'd notice her.

Anyway, it's clear to me you like things spelled out in text to believe them. That's certainly understandable. But then as a R/Hr shipper, I'm curious if you think they had a 'friendship' off page? Because on the page, the only things I know they did together when Harry wasn't around was play chess, do homework, and talk about Harry. Of course, I don't believe that was the extent of their off-page relationship, but I do have to infer the rest and I'm wondering what your feelings are on the matter.

That wouldn't say very much about Hermione though. I don't think Hermione would have told Ginny anything that Harry told her in private. Hermione was a very private person herself so I do think she would consider that a violation of Harry's privacy - and it certainly would have been, IMO. Harry didn't even want to tell Ron and Hermione about that kiss so Hermione blabbing about it to other people would have upset him, IMO.

There's nothing to support that Hermione cares one lick for the privacy of anyone but herself. She certainly has no problem asking Harry straight up about the kiss even when it was apparent he wasn't going to say anything himself, nor with asking him about his Valentine's date when once again Harry kept his mouth shut.

In fact, she is the one who tells us, Ron and Harry that Ginny is dating Michael which doesn't show much respect for Ginny's privacy. Even if it wasn't told to Hermione in-confidence, she obviously believed Ginny didn't want Ron to know, yet told him anyway. No, I see quite a lot of evidence that Hermione doesn't have a strong sense of privacy when it comes to others.

Actually, perhaps the most relevant example is when Hermione tells Harry that Ron is jealous after his name pops out of the goblet. Obviously Hermione over-simplified the situation to the point that she made things worse, but nevertheless she wasn't at all hesitant to reveal something very personal about Ron to Harry because she hoped it would help Harry to understand and reconcile with Ron. So if Hermione thought telling Ginny would help her, then yeah I completely believe she was capable of 'betraying Harry's trust.'

Assumptions aren't always baseless though. It's easy to see why Ginny would come to those conclusions based on the limited information she had. To her way of thinking that wouldn't have been a big deal - you date someone, you kiss them. That was the point she was trying to make to Ron when they argued. I doubt she actually knew that both Harry and Hermione only had a single date with Cho and Krum. Ginny was on the outside looking in during that time frame so I can see why she would think there was more to those relationships than there actually was. She was right about Harry and Cho, but we can't say that she was right about Hermione and Krum because we never got Hermione's side of the story - or Krum's for that matter - and her claim just isn't supported by what we see in GOF, IMO.

That's the thing with making assumptions based on conjecture and gossip - sometimes they will be right and sometimes they will be wrong. It depends on the source of the gossip really. It's when assumptions are wrong that someone can cause damage even if they don't mean to - which is exactly what happened with Ginny when she blurted that out to Ron. Though it does not appear that Ginny ever found out that she had caused so much damage - she certainly did not know anything about it in HBP.

Exactly. If it was an assumption which caused all that damage in HBP, why wasn't the record ever set straight? Why, when it could've been cleared up with a question from Harry to Hermione, or from overhearing Ron and Hermione discussing it like they did the Slughorn invite, or at the wedding in DH?

I understand that you doubt anything happened, but I still fail to see why Ginny would make this assumption, Harry (who has very little experience of his own and knows Hermione better than the reader) would agree with the assumption no questions asked, and Ron who knows Hermione best out of anyone accepts it once he can no longer delude himself with wishful thinking all because "that's what people do when they date," yet you are writing all these posts with the premise "That's NOT what Hermione and Krum did."

Why did not one of Hermione's friends (and regardless of how close anyone thinks Ginny and Hermione were or weren't, she at least knew more about Hermione than 95% of the rest of the characters) end up with a different assumption than your assumption when she had access to all the same facts you did (if not more)? What about Harry, whose eyes filter everything for us?

And I think you overlooked my point: Ginny made her statement to embarrass Ron, to show that everyone else was kissing and knew it was okay except for Ron who treated it like something disgusting because he'd never been kissed. But if she was only assuming, then Harry and Hermione might NOT have kissed anyone either. Harry was right there and could've said "Well I never kissed Cho" and they could've found Hermione who might've said "I never kissed Viktor." Ginny would've looked like an idiot. Not only would her attempt to embarrass Ron fail miserably, but it actually would make her look more like the scarlet woman Ron suggested she was by showing that she was the only one out there snogging people.

Now, it might've been worth the risk if she knew how devastated Ron would be over Hermione kissing Krum. But you and I agree that she didn't intend to have that effect, so for me, that's just a very big assumption and a very big risk for her to take for what should've been a very small expected payoff.

Romance doesn't necessarily have to involve kissing though - and "getting some action" can refer to anything from getting flowers from someone to actually having sex. It's a pretty broad range. Each of those relationships served a specific goal with each of them having something to learn from those experiences. Harry learned that common interests and compatible personalities were as important to a relationship as being attracted to someone. Cho was pretty and there was that physical attraction, but beyond Quidditch, they had very little in common and were very different people. Ron learned that there was more to being in a relationship than just snogging all the time. He thought that was great at first, but then he got bored - and Lavender becoming so clingy only made that worse. Similar lessons for the boys when you think about it - they both needed to realize that a relationship based on shallow reasons was not what they really wanted.

Hermione's situation was different. She needed to learn that guys could find her attractive - that she didn't need to put a bunch of glop in her hair and change her appearance so drastically that even Harry didn't recognize her to be attractive. One thing we learn about Hermione in GOF is that she did not like how she looked - she did not consider herself pretty. She didn't like her teeth and had asked her parents for permission to get them fixed magically, but they refused. Still, she takes advantage of Malfoy hitting her with that curse that made her teeth grow to get her teeth fixed the way she wanted. She was afraid people would laugh when they found out she was going to the ball with Krum - that's why she didn't want to tell anyone who her date was. I think that was part of the reason she did change her appearance so drastically - though I think the other part of it was to prove a point to Ron after the whole "I am a girl" argument they had.

Hermione's lesson was about realizing her own worth as an attractive young women. It wasn't the physical aspect of a relationship or what she wanted from a relationship because she already knew what she wanted. She wanted Ron. The issue there was that Hermione was afraid she wouldn't get what she wanted because she never considered herself pretty or attractive and Ron's comments about troll's and such made her believe that he only wanted to date a pretty girl. Krum's interest in Hermione was one-sided from what we're shown, but it's still an important experience for Hermione because it does help her realize that she is attractive and doesn't need to change how she looks, IMO. And having a guy actively pursue you and even invite you to his home over the summer would count as "getting some action" even with Hermione not returning his feelings and turning the invitation down. It's still flattering and would have made her feel better about her own appearance, IMO.

Uh, I think Ron needed to feel attractive to girls considering how he acted when Hermione went on about how fanciable Harry was right in front of him, so no that wasn't something unique to Hermione. And no, a one-sided romance doesn't count. Otherwise, Ron already had that with Rosemerta and Hermione with Lockhart. What you say is true in that it all helped Hermione feel more attractive, but that doesn't equate to being experienced romance. Furthermore, if feeling unattractive was Hermione's only problem and it was solved by the end of GoF, there would've been nothing to stop her from moving in on Ron from the start of OotP on. Yet the invitation to Slughorn's Ball (the next time Hermione inarguably demonstrates her interest in Ron) doesn't come for over a year and a half after the Yule Ball.

No, feeling unattractive was not Hermione's only hindrance to a romance with Ron. And I don't see the fact that Hermione knew she wanted Ron as meaning she couldn't like Viktor too. By HBP Ron knew he wanted Hermione, yet he still went and got off with Lavender and even might've genuinely liked her at the start. Ginny liked Harry yet dated Michael and Dean. Why do we want to hold Hermione to a different standard than all of her peers?

And saying that the invite to Bulgaria counts as "getting some action" is total interpretation on your part and I see no evidence in any interview discussing romance or snogging that JKR would agree with you on that one.

My husband proposed to me one week after we met - and we'd only been able to see each other three or four times that week. Of course, we waited a year before we actually got married, but we both knew where we were headed right away. My parents were the same way - my dad was actually on a blind date with my mom's college roommate and they met briefly when he picked the other girl up. He called my mom to ask her out the same night because they had such an immediate connection. So, yes, I think it's very possible for Krum to have such strong feelings in spite of spending so little time with Hermione overall. In fact, I think Hermione's lack of interest was a large part of why Krum was so attracted to her. He had girls almost literally throwing themselves at him - a group of them constantly following him around. But they were only interested in him because he was famous. Hermione didn't care about his fame and showed no interest in his Quidditch career at all - his presence in the library irritated her at first because his fangirls were always close behind and their giggling was a distraction. Hermione was the one girl that Krum could not have at the snap of his fingers and that was the root of his attraction to her, IMO. And considering his immediate switch to Ginny after finding out Ron and Hermione were together in DH, it actually does not appear that Krum's feelings for Hermione were very serious.

Yes, but the differences here were that you were both on the same page. There was a connection as you say. Well, connections go two ways, yet you're saying Hermione felt nothing but friendship for Viktor in return.

I do agree that Hermione not being bowled over by Krum's fame would've been very attractive to him, but an actual lack of feelings? I'm sorry, but I don't see how that's a turn on for anyone. Push him to make more of an effort because she's playing hard to get? Certainly. But actually make his feelings deeper? No, that's completely illogical and I don't think it makes any sense whatsoever.

Also, to be clear, I did not mean that Hermione only spent time with Krum on three occasions - I was referring to the locations and the lack of privacy with those locations. My point was that the Yule Ball and the brief time after the second task were the only times that Hermione was with Krum outside of the library. We know they saw each other several times in the library before the Yule Ball because Krum was specifically hanging out in there in hopes of getting a chance to talk to Hermione. He was attracted to her before he even talked to her. Hermione told Ron about them meeting in the library on page. We don't know how many times specifically, but we do know that it was always the library with the Yule Ball and the lake being the only exceptions as far as location went. The point being that it was presented that they were always together in a location where other people were around so, if there had been any kissing, people would have seen it and that would have been part of the gossip about them in GOF.

Sorry but now I'm confused. They did spend more time together than what we saw? But I thought you said all her time was accounted for, that she was too busy, that Ron and Harry would've noticed her missing and gone to the library to look for her.

You're making two points in different places that contradict one another. You say all her time is accounted for, yet admit meetings did go on that we never got to see.

You also say that these meetings only could've occurred in the library (save one exception), yet the only way we even know where any of them took place is because Hermione tells Ron about one of them (Hermione confiding that Viktor had been coming there to watch her doesn't support them ever meeting there more than once, only that she and Krum saw each other there more than once).

So why should I assume that Hermione informed the boys of every meeting when we know that isn't the case, or why every meeting had to be in the library when again there's no hint in the books that this was the situation? What I do know is that they must've met more than the three times in the books, and that Hermione has shown herself more than capable of withholding information about her relationship with Viktor from Harry and Ron on multiple occasions. These two things are absolutely facts based on no assumptions whatsoever. So, no I don't think we got anywhere close to the whole story on what went down between them.

There's no indication that Hermione felt any confusion or guilt regarding Krum in the text. She never considered him anything more than a friend and she was frustrated that Ron saw Krum as competition when he wasn't from what we're shown.

There's no indication that Hermione only saw Krum as a friend either. Every blush Hermione gets when mentioning Viktor very well could be to do with Ron, but since we have the example of Lockhart, there's support that they could've been for Krum as well.

Considering the state of Hermione's appearance and the fact that she was very dispassionate when talking about it, I would say just the opposite. She managed to escape McClaggen and got very disheveled doing so - Harry noted that it looked like she had fought her way out of Devil's Snare. It does not appear that McClaggen had any success in his attempts to kiss Hermione, IMO.

Well I feel just the opposite. If McLaggen had truly 'forced' himself on Hermione, there would've been enough of a commotion for someone to notice and step in. Which leads into your next point.

I think Hermione would have been extremely upset if that had been the case because McClaggen was attempting to force himself on her and it would have been a lot more traumatic for Hermione if he had succeeded in any way. I don't think Jo wanted to take the situation that far because that would be an entirely separate traumatic experience that Hermione would have to deal with on top of everything else she was going through and it would have detracted from the overall story, IMO. Hermione being able to escape relatively unscathed was more useful in terms of the story because it ensured that Hermione would not be angry or emotionally distraught due to having such a traumatic experience so she was able to talk to Harry as she normally would during that scene, IMO.

Presuming the menton of mistletoe was more than just a joke, I think it much more likely that McLaggen surprised her with a kiss than actually forced himself on her. To me, such a thing isn't all the traumatic to a girl who has already been kissed. Disgusting, yes which is why she does everything she can to avoid him, but not traumatized. I see her squirreling her way out of his arms and away from his lips before making some excuse to flee the scene. To me, this perfectly fits with Cormac's attitude when he talks to Harry and Hermione's disheveled appearance

I guess I'm having trouble picturing how you imagined Hermione getting disheveled while escaping McLaggen, which is why I don't really understand what you're suggesting.

Lack of evidence proves nothing actually - and I'm pretty sure that nobody has ever specifically asked Jo if Hermione actually did kiss Krum or not. At least not since the series was completed and she started giving full, complete answers to such questions. I haven't seen that in any interviews. It was never cleared up on page because the story was presented from Harry's point of view and we never got to see what Ron or Hermione were thinking - or what they talked about when they were alone together. In terms of the overall story, that was not an important issue - it was something that was resolved between Ron and Hermione off page when Harry wasn't around to witness it. It's not on the same scale as the situation with Crookshanks, Sirius, or Snape - those were issues that were important to the story and had to be cleared up for the story to move forward.

No, but neither was the issue of the Firebolt either. By that point, what did it matter who sent it to Harry. Yet we're told so Hermione could get her "I told you so" in at the end of PoA.

Whether the kiss happened may not've been a relevant plot point by the end of HBP, but it definitely is an important character point for all three members of the trio in terms of trust, honesty and openness. Revealing that Hermione HADN'T kissed Krum would've certainly prompted a response from Ron and Hermione (probably not Harry, admittedly). Whereas revealing that she HAD kissed Krum would've prompted nothing more than a regretful 'oh, yes' out of Hermione.

Not every loose end was tied up in the story after all. There are still a lot of unanswered questions and that is one of them. Another one was what Hermione smelled with the Amortentia potion - that was never revealed on page, but someone did ask Jo about it in an interview at a later time. Of course, the difference there is that there is actually evidence on page in HBP that Hermione did smell three difference scents from the potion like Harry did and that the third scent was connected to Ron in some way. There is no evidence whatsoever to support Ginny's assumption that Hermione snogged Krum. Such evidence would have to exist within the pages of GOF since that was the only time Hermione was actually around Krum and it's just not there.

Yes, but what Amortentia smelled like to Hermione wasn't a relevant plot point whatsoever. Whether Hermione kissed Krum or not created an entire subplot in HBP which eventually tied into the main plot. And the evidence doesn't HAVE to exist in GoF to support Ginny's assumption. She believes it, Harry believes it, Ron believes it and it's never refuted on page and I believe it's supported by JKR's quotes about the trio's love lives following the release of HBP. We as readers have gone off of far less when trusting JUST Harry's gut feelings before. There was no evidence in GoF because it would've completely ruined the surprise of it in HBP, so of course JRK didn't want to include evidence in that book to hinder a plot she was saving for two books later. This isn't a mistake or a flaw or bad writing. Rather it's very skillful use of misdirection: everyone was wondering after GoF whether Hermione would visit Krum or not. OotP makes it appear that this was highly unlikely if not impossible. Readers sit back, believing they have all the answers onto to be hit in HBP with information they probably hadn't even considered.

As for Harry - he was shown to be wrong in his assumptions on page. When Ron asked Harry what Hermione saw in Krum, Harry immediately thinks it was probably because Krum was older and a famous Quidditch player. We already knew that Hermione had no interest in Krum's fame - that actually irritated her - and she was never all that interested in Quidditch so Harry was on the wrong track from the start. That also goes towards showing that Harry really didn't know or understand Hermione very well, IMO. Ginny's thought process was likely very similar to Harry's and she believed that because she was on the outside looking in at the time and the gossip about Hermione and Krum would have supported that assumption. That was Ron's fear as well - he saw Krum as competition for Hermione's affections and did not believe he could compete with an internationally famous Quidditch player who could afford nice things. Part of his journey was realizing that he was completely wrong about that because Hermione wasn't looking for fame and riches. She wanted Ron just as he was.

We have no idea about Ginny's thought process. None whatsoever. So we have no idea whether or not it's like Harry's. And Harry knew Hermione extremely well, as far as her life at Hogwarts was concerned. Wouldn't you agree, considering he manages to use this knowledge to anticipate when Hermione is going to annoy him and what to say and do in order to avoid it was often as possible?

And yes, Harry's assumption are proven wrong by the text. This supports rather than damaged my statement. When assumptions are wrong, they are cleared up. This is not the same as things left unanswered like the third amortentia smell. I'm talking about characters believing one thing and learning they are wrong. For instance, Hermione assumes Tonks loved Sirius and Harry buys into it only to be proven wrong at the end of the book.

I'd be more than happy to concede this point if there is some evidence where at least two of the main characters make an assumption that is wrong yet are never corrected. But I don't believe any exists.

That leaves us with only two options. An extremely bad retcon - changing events from the past to fit the current events - or Ginny made an assumption that was wrong. I don't believe Jo would even attempt such a poorly constructed retcon - particularly one that paints both Hermione and Ginny in such a negative way - so that leaves Ginny making an assumption - which fits with the circumstances and Ginny's personality, IMO.

No, that leaves you with two acceptable options. Hermione kissing Krum off page fits perfectly fine into the books from where I am sitting. And it doesn't contradict a single line of text in GoF either.

And it does put Hermione in a bad light, but it's not like Hermione ever was this perfect little angel so many fans thought of her as. I don't see how it paints Ginny in a negative way...oh you mean by confessing Hermione's confidences? Yes, I suppose Hermione would have the right to be upset about that. But at the same time, Hermione dug her own grave, not only by being so secretive about Krum in the first place, but by not telling Ginny about her feelings for Ron.

And even if it WAS an assumption made by Ginny, how does that fit Ginny's personality? What other assumptions does Ginny make of that magnitude?

Originally Posted by GingerCat1

Hermione is not the sort to lead a guy on so i think that while she and Krum may have kissed once or twice after that Hermione implied to Krum that she only wanted to be friends and the reason why Krum had that conversation with Harry was Krum thought Harry was the reason why Hermione only wanted to be friends or why Hermione did not seem particularly interested in persuing a relationship with him. Also based on the fact that Hermione was at Grimmauld Place quite some time before Harry arrived and she would have spent some times with her parents before that i highly highly doubt Hermione would have gone to Bulgaria. Not only would Hermione not want to go because she does not want to lead Krum on but even if she did want to go there is no way her parents would have let her.

Also looking at the Harry Potter timeline 4th year ends on June 27th and on the 1st of August in 5th year Harry notes that Hermione and Ron are clearly in the same place and he also notes from memory that they seemed to have been in the same location for quite some time.

I do agree that Hermione isn't the sort to lead a boy on, which is probably part of the reason their relationship moved much more slowly than Krum would've liked. And I agree that Harry correctly interpreted that Krum saw him as a threat. And I definitely agree that Hermione didn't visit Bulgaria. Even if she had found the time to do so in the small window of opportunity between GoF and OotP, I don't think she would've been able to hide such a trip from Ron (who would've still been quite curious after Hermione first arrived at Grimmauld Place), yet he is clearly surprised to find out she's still in communication with Krum when they first come up with the idea for the D.A.

What I disagree with is when Hermione told Krum they could only be friends. He's still pursuing her up to his talk with Harry before the third task at the very least, so there's no way she completely shot him down before then. It is possible that she told him "No I can't come visit you and no, I don't fancy you" during their brief conversation at the end of GoF, and maybe she did. But to me, it's far more likely such a conversation didn't take place until after Christmas fifth year. Up until then we know they continued writing letters to one-another, yet after Christmas, all mention of Krum ceases until Ginny brings him up in HBP.

What happened? The perfume. Ron finally gave Hermione a sign she couldn't misread. After that, she knew Ron liked her on some level and thus could not lead Viktor on knowing she had a chance with the boy she really wanted. Before, she believed it possible to move on, to outgrow her feelings for Ron with time if she knew they weren't returned. But after Christmas, everything changed.

And indeed, Hermione's entire demeanor, tone and language toward Ron change significantly with them rarely arguing or annoying one-another until Ginny brings the kiss back into focus. Even when Ron slobbered over Fleur, Hermione didn't get nearly as upset as she did in GoF because she rationally understood where his feelings really lay.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by TenderHooligan

I do agree that Hermione isn't the sort to lead a boy on, which is probably part of the reason their relationship moved much more slowly than Krum would've liked. And I agree that Harry correctly interpreted that Krum saw him as a threat. And I definitely agree that Hermione didn't visit Bulgaria. Even if she had found the time to do so in the small window of opportunity between GoF and OotP, I don't think she would've been able to hide such a trip from Ron (who would've still been quite curious after Hermione first arrived at Grimmauld Place), yet he is clearly surprised to find out she's still in communication with Krum when they first come up with the idea for the D.A.

I disagree with your opinion about whether Hermione visited Victor over the summer, and using evidence of Ron's being unaware of it as proof. Ron is unaware of a lot of things, mostly he has selective vision, not seeing what he'd rather not; he does the same with his feelings. Ron was obviously unaware of whether or not Hermione went, as he keeps asking her once he spies the letter, and she evades answering as if she never heard him. Ron is the guy who saw Victor & Hermione at the Yule Ball, how much attention Victor gave Hermione and how happy she looked. He knows it's at least possible they're romantically involved, confirmed by the choice of Hermione as "what Victor would miss the most" in the 2nd task. Yet you posit that Ron would certainly have been able to find out about the trip, when he couldn't even deduce that snogging may have gone on during GOF? I think Ron's surprise that they were still writing to each other was his assumption that once Krum was gone, Hermione would lose interest. Like I noted before, I think she went so she could tell him in person she just wanted to be friends.

Originally Posted by TenderHooligan

What I disagree with is when Hermione told Krum they could only be friends. He's still pursuing her up to his talk with Harry before the third task at the very least, so there's no way she completely shot him down before then. It is possible that she told him "No I can't come visit you and no, I don't fancy you" during their brief conversation at the end of GoF, and maybe she did. But to me, it's far more likely such a conversation didn't take place until after Christmas fifth year. Up until then we know they continued writing letters to one-another, yet after Christmas, all mention of Krum ceases until Ginny brings him up in HBP.

What happened? The perfume. Ron finally gave Hermione a sign she couldn't misread. After that, she knew Ron liked her on some level and thus could not lead Viktor on knowing she had a chance with the boy she really wanted. Before, she believed it possible to move on, to outgrow her feelings for Ron with time if she knew they weren't returned. But after Christmas, everything changed.

I agree with your view that Hermione didn't have the "just friends" talk with Victor at the end of GOF. Your theory of post-Christmas 6th year makes sense to me....although I think it's still likely that Hermione did go visit Krum to break the news in person. Otherwise why not just tell Ron "no, I didn't go" and be done with it? It would have been to her benefit in moving things along with Ron.

[birdi86]

But Hermione does lead a boy on - Cormac. She boasts about how easy he'll be to snag, and does so for the sole purposes of hurting Ron by taking the guy who nearly beat him for Keeper.

[cool_chick_div]

I've always believed that Hermione and Krum did kiss each other. i'm not sure exactly when the 'just friends' became effective but Ginny said it, Harry and Ron believed it and I don't recall it being contradicted. JKR didn't say it didn't happen and I didn't read it in the books. To me there was no indication that Ginny was wrong about Hermione and Krum.

JKR also said that she wanted the characters to have relationships before they were matched with their life-partners. So I believe Hermione and Krum kissed just like Harry kissed Cho, Ginny kissed Michael and Dean and Ron kissed Lavendar. It would also be odd if JKR gave them all previous relationships except for Hermione.

But Hermione does lead a boy on - Cormac. She boasts about how easy he'll be to snag, and does so for the sole purposes of hurting Ron by taking the guy who nearly beat him for Keeper.

This is the first time I truly saw her as a flawed character. Before I saw her as perfect, then I realized she had other flaws like her bossiness and need to always be right.

But Hermione does lead a boy on - Cormac. She boasts about how easy he'll be to snag, and does so for the sole purposes of hurting Ron by taking the guy who nearly beat him for Keeper.

This is the first time I truly saw her as a flawed character. Before I saw her as perfect, then I realized she had other flaws like her bossiness and need to always be right.

[ShadowSonic]

It's just that, unlike Ron or Harry, Hermione never really suffers for her flaws to the extent that they do or struggles because of them (or struggles to overcome them) like they do. She's still the same at the end, compared to them.

[GingerCat1]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I disagree with your opinion about whether Hermione visited Victor over the summer, and using evidence of Ron's being unaware of it as proof. Ron is unaware of a lot of things, mostly he has selective vision, not seeing what he'd rather not; he does the same with his feelings. Ron was obviously unaware of whether or not Hermione went, as he keeps asking her once he spies the letter, and she evades answering as if she never heard him. Ron is the guy who saw Victor & Hermione at the Yule Ball, how much attention Victor gave Hermione and how happy she looked. He knows it's at least possible they're romantically involved, confirmed by the choice of Hermione as "what Victor would miss the most" in the 2nd task. Yet you posit that Ron would certainly have been able to find out about the trip, when he couldn't even deduce that snogging may have gone on during GOF? I think Ron's surprise that they were still writing to each other was his assumption that once Krum was gone, Hermione would lose interest. Like I noted before, I think she went so she could tell him in person she just wanted to be friends.

There was a maximum gap of 1 month between Ron and Hermione not seeing each other between GoF and OotP and odds are it was a lot less than that. No doubt the minute Hermione got to Grimmauld Place Ron asked her about her holidays (as Ron knew about Krum's invite) and even if Hermione keeps secrets from Ron Ron is actually very good at telling when she is lying as he knew she was lying to him in PoA with the time turner and he also was very suspicious when Hermione told Ron that she and Krum were penpals. If Hermione lied to Ron about what she did on her brief holidays then i think Ron would have suspected something was up and when Harry got to Grimmuald Place he would have noticed a very frosty relationship between Ron and Hermione.

Also as i said even if Hermione did want to go to Bulgaria (which i don't think she did as Hermione was well aware that she did not have feelings for Krum and he had feelings for her) Hermione's parents would never allow it as there is no way any reasonable parent would let their 15 year old daughter go visit a 18 year old man in another country. Also if Hermione had not spent at least several weeks with her parents i doubt they would have let her go to Grimmauld Place as they would want to spend quite a bit of time with their daughter since she goes to bording school and is away for much of the year.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by GingerCat1

There was a maximum gap of 1 month between Ron and Hermione not seeing each other between GoF and OotP and odds are it was a lot less than that. No doubt the minute Hermione got to Grimmauld Place Ron asked her about her holidays (as Ron knew about Krum's invite) and even if Hermione keeps secrets from Ron Ron is actually very good at telling when she is lying as he knew she was lying to him in PoA with the time turner and he also was very suspicious when Hermione told Ron that she and Krum were penpals. If Hermione lied to Ron about what she did on her brief holidays then i think Ron would have suspected something was up and when Harry got to Grimmuald Place he would have noticed a very frosty relationship between Ron and Hermione.

I doubt that Ron would have known the difference because Ron did not know about Krum's invitation until the conversation in OOTP when Hermione is writing to Victor, there's no mention of it at all in GOF (I've just re-read the section at the end of the 2nd task, and the end of the book where Hermione explains about Rita Skeeter...it's always mentioned in the most general of terms, as "private conversation", not one detail). There's nothing at all mentioned about Victor's invitation. So it would be very easy for Hermione to tell Ron the truth about the part of the summer she spent with her parents, and Ron would have no reason to believe there was anything more to be told or ask any questions because he simply did not know about it at that point.

Originally Posted by GingerCat1

Also as i said even if Hermione did want to go to Bulgaria (which i don't think she did as Hermione was well aware that she did not have feelings for Krum and he had feelings for her) Hermione's parents would never allow it as there is no way any reasonable parent would let their 15 year old daughter go visit a 18 year old man in another country. Also if Hermione had not spent at least several weeks with her parents i doubt they would have let her go to Grimmauld Place as they would want to spend quite a bit of time with their daughter since she goes to bording school and is away for much of the year.

Hermione's parents realize she's not like an ordinary muggle. They already give her quite a bit of flexibility because they understand she belongs to the magical world. Hermione comes early to Diagon Alley in POA and stays at the Leaky Cauldron, goes to the Burrow/Quidditch World Cup in GOF, and leaves holiday (skiing) with her parents because Dumbledore tells her what's going on with Harry's freaking out. I doubt there would be any problem with Hermione's traveling for a few days over the summer break. Hermione's parents were doing what they believed was best for their daughter -- letting her lead as far as what she needed (or wanted) to do regarding acclimation to the magical world.

[GingerCat1]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I doubt that Ron would have known the difference because Ron did not know about Krum's invitation until the conversation in OOTP when Hermione is writing to Victor, there's no mention of it at all in GOF (I've just re-read the section at the end of the 2nd task, and the end of the book where Hermione explains about Rita Skeeter...it's always mentioned in the most general of terms, as "private conversation", not one detail). There's nothing at all mentioned about Victor's invitation. So it would be very easy for Hermione to tell Ron the truth about the part of the summer she spent with her parents, and Ron would have no reason to believe there was anything more to be told or ask any questions because he simply did not know about it at that point.

Its probably been a while since you read GoF but here it is

“There's something funny, though,” said Hermione ten minutes later, holding her pestle suspended over a bowl of scarab beetles. “How could Rita Skeeter have known...?”

“Known what?” said Ron quickly. “You haven't been mixing up Love Potions, have you?”

“Don't be stupid,” Hermione snapped, starting to pound up her beetles again.

“No, it's just... how did she know Viktor asked me to visit him over the summer?”

Hermione blushed scarlet as she said this and determinedly avoided Ron's eyes.

“What?” said Ron, dropping his pestle with a loud clunk.

“He asked me right after he'd pulled me out of the lake,” Hermione muttered.

“After he'd got rid of his shark's head. Madam Pomfrey gave us both
blankets and then he sort of pulled me away from the judges so they wouldn't hear, and he said, if I wasn't doing anything over the summer, would I like to—”

“And what did you say?” said Ron, who had picked up his pestle and was grinding it on the desk, a good six inches from his bowl, because he was looking at Hermione.

“And he did say he'd never felt the same way about anyone else,” Hermione went on, going so red now that Harry could almost feel the heat coming from her, “but how could Rita Skeeter haveheard him? She wasn't there ...or was she? Maybe she has got an Invisibility Cloak; maybe she sneaked onto the grounds to watch the second task...”

“And what did you say?” Ron repeated, pounding his pestle down so hard that it dented the desk.

“Well, I was too busy seeing whether you and Harry were okay to-”

“Fascinating though your social life undoubtedly is. Miss Granger,” said an icy voice right behind them, and all three of them jumped, “I must ask you not to discuss it in my class. Ten points from Gryffindor.”

Its in the chapter "Padfoot Returns". So as you can see Ron was well aware of the invitating in GoF and i think Ron would have known if Hermione went to Bulgaria considering Hermione came to Grimmauld Place less than a month after the holidays begun and i doubt Hermione could have kept it a secret from Ron if she did go as Ron would have asked her and if Hermione did go Ron would be able to tell that she was lying.

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by GingerCat1

Its probably been a while since you read GoF but here it is



Its in the chapter "Padfoot Returns". So as you can see Ron was well aware of the invitating in GoF and i think Ron would have known if Hermione went to Bulgaria considering Hermione came to Grimmauld Place less than a month after the holidays begun and i doubt Hermione could have kept it a secret from Ron if she did go as Ron would have asked her and if Hermione did go Ron would be able to tell that she was lying.

Since the invitation was right after the second event, it seems to me Hermione had plenty of time before the end of term to tell Viktor in person that she wouldn't be visiting him over the summer.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by TenderHooligan

Yes, but at the Yule Ball, she was out in the garden spying on Hagrid like Ron and Harry. Rita being around =/= her able to account for every single second of Hermione's life.

And all the students who were making out with each other were doing so in the garden with Snape very obviously rooting them out and calling them by name. Hermione and Krum were not there - they were in the Great Hall with hundreds of other witnesses.

Likewise, Harry witnessed Hermione and Krum saying good night to each other after the ball and there was no kissing involved. There is no evidence presented in the text that would suggest there was ever any kissing - or any romantic interest on Hermione's part at all. And from a literary standpoint, in order for Ginny's claim in HBP to be true, there must be evidence within GOF to support it. We should be able to go back to GOF and find the exact moment where that kiss occurred. We can't do that because Hermione was never alone with Krum - they were always surrounded by other people in the library, the Great Hall during the ball, and by the lake after the second task.

There is something to suggest that she did meet him. Three in fact: Krum's expression of feelings after the second task, Krum's confrontation with Harry which shows that he had not given up and so had almost certainly spoken to her at some point in the intervening 3 months, and the fact that Krum says that Hermione spoke of Harry often.

All of which is consistent with Hermione seeing Krum on various occasions in the library, their one date at the Yule Ball, and the brief time by the lake after the second task. There is nothing presented in GOF that would support them ever seeing each other in any other location and there were always people in those locations so they would never have been alone. Krum's frustration and confrontation with Harry demonstrates that he wasn't succeeding in courting Hermione - she wasn't interested in him romantically and he thought that was due to her having feelings for Harry. That proves that they were never making out with each other - which is what "snog" actually means - because Krum would have had no reason to doubt Hermione's feelings if she was making out with him, IMO. From what we're shown, Krum was frustrated because Hermione did not respond to him romantically.

Also, the third task wasn't even announced right away so there was plenty of time in between where Hermione wasn't helping Harry 24/7. In fact, the Hermione/Rita confrontation didn't even happen until mid-January. Before then, Rite didn't even have a reason to pay attention to Hermione, so she might not have known or noticed Krum's Yule Ball date was the same girl she'd said was Harry's girlfriend. She certainly didn't look like Hermione at the Ball. Heck, Rita might not've put it together until the second task.

It is noted on page that Hermione was with Harry and Ron during her free time at that point in the story. No, she wasn't with them 24/7, but we also have to account for the 10 classes she had in her schedule. It's also noted that McGonagall eventually gave the trio permission to use the transfiguration classroom during their free periods - which was more convenient for them than having to search for an empty classroom to practice in. Hermione's time is accounted for on page - 10 classes, breaks between classes spent with Ron and Harry, meal times spent with Ron and Harry, free periods spent with Ron and Harry, Hogsmeade trips spent with Ron and Harry, the time after curfew spent in the Gryffindor common room with Ron and Harry, overnight in her dorm with Parvatti and Lavender.

The only times Hermione was not with Ron and Harry were the classes she had that they didn't, overnight when she was asleep, and the times she went to the library alone - and it is noted on page that she was not studying in the library during the time she was helping Harry prepare for the third task. Harry felt guilty that helping him cut into Ron and Hermione's study time, but Hermione told him she was fine with it because they were learning so much about DADA.

And even then, 'targeting' Hermione is going a little far. Yes, she was in Hermione's hair, but Harry hadn't even emerged from the lake yet, so what else was she going to pay attention to considering she'd ignored Cedric's existence as a champion up to that point and was completely uninterested in Fleur.

It is presented on page that Rita targeted Hermione because of their confrontation in Hogsmeade after the Yule Ball. Hermione called Rita out over the article she wrote about Hagrid and Rita targeted Hermione to write a scathing article about her as revenge.

No, they did not know this. Ron guessed and Hermione confirmed it. They didn't have this time accounted for, it was merely a safe assumption based on how much time Hermione spent there on school and S.P.E.W. It's not like Ron pinpointed the exact date and time of the asking. In fact, we the readers have no idea when Krum actually asked Hermione or when she might've accepted except that it was obviously before Ron and Harry asked their first choices. So tell me, if this is an event we know for certain happened but cannot pinpoint the exact date, why is it required we pinpoint the exact date of a kiss or handholding or even another conversation?

Actually, they did know. They knew when Hermione went to the library because she always told them and they knew Krum had been hanging around the library a lot because Hermione complained about the giggling fangirls being a distraction. Ron made a logical deduction based on the facts he knew and Hermione confirmed that he was correct. That wasn't a difficult deduction to make since the only time Hermione was not with Ron and Harry was during the classes they did not have with her, at night while she was asleep, and the times she went to the library without them. Since Krum obviously did not barge into any of Hermione's classes to ask her to the ball and no boy could get into the girls' dormitory, the only place Krum could have asked Hermione was in the library.

While we can't pinpoint the specific day that Krum asked Hermione, we can determine that it was at some point between Ron's troll comment and the night he asked Hermione to go as as last resort - and there were only a few days between those incidents as I recall.

Just because Ron's not saying "Where's Hermione" every other page like he did in PoA doesn't mean they always knew where she was. The book skips days and weeks at a time which are completely unaccounted for by the reader. Again, she doesn't even have to lie to anyone. Hermione can run off toward the library like she often does without a word, the boys make an assumption, and Hermione goes and meets Krum. Whether it's actually in the library, in a broom closet, out on the grounds or wherever, I don't really care. We never see Ginny and Michael snog or Percy and Penelope yet we know it happened so there are certainly ways for students who don't share a common room to get some alone time. And I'm sure Hermione could do it without breaking the rules if Percy managed it as well.

The books also show us that Hermione always tells Harry and Ron where she is going if she is not going to be spending time with them. Her time is never unaccounted for. They know her class schedule, they know her habits, and she always tells them when she goes to the library.

That's not the entire point though. The point is that, in order for Ginny's claim in HBP to be true, there must be some direct evidence presented on page in GOF that shows Hermione kissed Krum. The reader should be able to go back and pinpoint exactly when and where Hermione and Krum were making out with each other - which, again, is the definition of snogging. Unexplained absences are only one possibility for that. Others would include showing Hermione and Krum on page in a romantic capacity as a couple - Hermione eating meals with him, holding hands, inviting him to Hogsmeade for a date, etc... There must be at least one piece of evidence presented on page in GOF to support Ginny's statement in HBP and that simply does not exist in GOF.

And I see no proof that Hermione had 0 romantic feelings for Krum, except her words "He's just a pen pal" to Ron and we all know Hermione DOES lie to Ron quite often or hide the truth, especially when it comes to her romantic feelings. Hermione was secretive about her relationship with Krum from the moment it was brought up. I have no trouble believing she continued to be secretive about it as a result of her embarrassment, her usually private nature, and not wanting to upset Ron (except when she did want to upset him of course). There's nothing in the text to support that she only liked him as a friend.

Hermione told Ron at the Yule Ball that she only wanted to be friends with Krum - that the whole point of the ball was to make friends. She also told Ron after the ball that, if he didn't like her going on a date with someone else, he should ask her out first and not as a last resort - which proves her romantic interest was in Ron because she wouldn't be telling Ron to ask her out on a date if she was romantically interested in Krum, IMO. In OOTP, Hermione states several times that she and Krum are just friends - or pen pals. Hermione put a great deal of effort into convincing Ron and she and Krum were never anything more than friends.

Hermione is not a good liar - and Ron in particular always knows when Hermione is lying. She doesn't lie unless she feels it is absolutely necessary - i.e. McGonagall telling her not to tell anyone about the time turner - but she never gets away with it because it's always obvious that she's lying. Hermione didn't lie about having a date for the ball - she was honest and told them she didn't want to say who it was because she thought they would laugh. She wasn't secretive about talking to Krum in the library and freely talked about their conversations and things Krum told her. She was honest about Krum's feelings for her and that he had invited her to visit him over the summer - as well as revealing that she wasn't interested and didn't answer him because she was more worried about Ron and Harry at the time. She was honest about writing letters to Krum - and receiving letters from him in return. Hermione never lied about her friendship with Krum from what we're shown.

No, you see in the books these are supposed to be real people. In the books, a kiss isn't all that super important. You claim that Ginny merely assumed Hermione and Krum kissed. Why wouldn't everyone else assume it as well? I know I would. So if they were already assuming they had kissed, why would it be a big deal if they actually saw them kiss and confirmed it?

It wouldn't be a big deal as far as the story goes and that is the point. There was already gossip going around about Hermione and Krum during GOF - particularly after Rita's article came out. Hermione even got hate mail because the general public assumed the article was true.

It was a big deal to Ron in HBP because he had finally come around to accepting that Hermione was telling him the truth about never being anything more than friends with Krum. It's easy to ignore random gossip from people who didn't really know anything and a vicious tabloid style article that both Hermione and Harry considered laughable. It's much more difficult to ignore your own sister telling you that that the girl you're in love with has lied to you and the gossip was true. That's what upset Ron the most I think - the implication that Hermione had lied to him about never being anything more than friends with Krum.

And no-one knew Krum had asked Hermione (besides Ginny). I don't get what's so hard about believing they found half a dozen private moments over six months when they'd already shown themselves capable of it on their first meeting. And did not always have a gaggle of giggle girls following him around. After the Yule Ball they are barely mentioned and after the second task/Rita's article they are dropped completely. Maybe they were still following him, but it was not noted in the book. And considering Krum's romantic circumstances appeared to have changed, I think there's good evidence that they didn't behave the same way they did before the Ball.

Actually, Neville knew - he even told Ron that Hermione turned him down because someone else had already asked her and Ron passed that on to Harry. Neville did not tell Ron that it was Krum, but we can't say that he didn't know because they never ask him. I would also include the students that would have been in the library at the time - at least some of them would have known.

There is no evidence of any private meeting between Hermione and Krum at all during the time frame of GOF. They met in the library several times, at the Yule Ball, and by the lake during the second task - all of which were public locations with other people around. And, yes, Krum's fangirls were always following him around - this was confirmed after Rita's article because the fangirls in particular were very angry at the idea of Krum dating Hermione. Harry noted them shooting angry looks at Hermione. In order for Hermione and Krum to have had any private meeting where they could make out, there must be evidence for that on page.

And before that she was concentrating on Harry, yet didn't nail down everything happening in his life or even doing a good job of digging up his past 3 years. Rita is not perfect. She is not the all-seeing Album Dumbledore. Yes, she wanted to get back at Hermione a bit, but it wasn't like she hated her the same way we see in OotP after being imprisoned and blackmailed. Hermione had made a few comments to her in Hogsmeade. That's it. I'm sorry if I refuse to believe a woman in her 40s would devote every second of her day to tailing a fifteen year old girl when much of those days' freetime would've been spent in the library. She was still a professional with a public interest in Harry and wouldn't sacrifice everything for a minor personal vendetta toward Hermione.

Rita wasn't interested in writing about the truth or all the exact details. She went for sensationalism - picking and choosing the details that she could twist around for the most dramatic story. Her articles do not reveal everything she knew about Harry - they only reveal what she considered the most sensational details that would make the most dramatic story to sell papers and magazines. She got information from any source she could and used her animagus form to hide herself so she could eavesdrop on people without them being aware of it. She was running out of "brave little orphan Harry chosen as champion" stories and looking for a fresh angle - even trying to get Hagrid to give her dirt she could use.

Again, it was presented on page that Rita targeted Hermione specifically because of their confrontation in Hogsmeade over the article about Hagrid. Rita saw an opportunity to kill two birds with one stone - another tabloid style article featuring Harry with a fresh angle that would turn the public against Hermione at the same time. And it worked - as all the hate mail Hermione received because of that article demonstrates.

Why would people see them? Harry's the only one who notices Sirius and Crookshanks on the grounds in PoA, the trio are the only one's to notice Hagrid's return in OotP. I seriously doubt students are just sitting there glued to the windows of Hogwarts. And even if they were, I doubt they would've been able to make out their identities if they were down by the Durmstrang ship. And please, all of Hermione's time is NOT accounted for. No one's time is all accounted for because JKR doesn't write in real-time. Pretty much no author does. And the examples of locations are just that: examples. I have no idea where or when they kissed because they didn't tell us. But we do know other students kiss all the time outside the common rooms so I certainly know it's more than possible.

We don't know that Harry was the only one who ever saw a big dog on Hogwarts grounds. Harry never told anyone that he saw the dog at Hogwarts because he was afraid it was a Grimm. We do know that he was not the only one who ever saw Crookshanks - in particular, Ron saw him and complained about Hermione letting the cat roam around like that.

We also know that Hogwarts is not a place where secrets can be kept. Harry's confrontation with Quirrellmort in the dungeon had no witnesses - not even Ron and Hermione - but the entire school knew what had happened down there within a few days. Nobody was around when Harry stabbed the basilisk with Gryffindor's sword - at least nobody who was conscious - yet people knew about that as well because the portraits told other students about it. The portraits, the ghosts, and Peeves pretty much ensure that there is no real privacy at Hogwarts from what we're shown. Likewise, locations like the library and the Great Hall were not private because there were always other students around.

Hermione has never spent all her freetime with the boys. Never has and never will. And again, just because Hermione is incredibly important to us doesn't mean every other person in the books cares all that much. The Slytherins had already badmouthed her for the first article. They have no reason to put forth extra effort to follow her around. The school saw her and Krum at the Ball, and most probably realized she and Harry aren't dating after seeing them hang out together every day after the article. I would probably assume a lucky girl like Hermione would want to kiss the famous Quidditch player if I was a Hogwarts students and I image those who cared felt the same way. Kissing just isn't really the big deal it's made out to be over this debate.

Actually, Hermione does spend all of her free time with Ron and Harry in GOF. To be clear, by free time, I mean the times that were not spent in class or studying in the library. The free periods they had, meal times, weekends, Hogsmeade weekends, etc... The only times that Hermione was not with Harry and Ron were the classes she had that they did not, the times she went to the library to study and they didn't - which actually wasn't very often because Harry and Ron preferred to study with Hermione so she would help them with their work - and when she was asleep in her dorm. Also, during the time that Harry and Ron were fighting, Hermione was dividing her time between them - thought she spend most of her free time during that time period helping Harry learn the summoning charm.

Seeing them sitting or walking together...so what? Even if it happened and someone told Rita, what good is that? Why would she print it? So they very well could've been spotted by other students in the midst of less-amorous activities than snogging and simply not been interesting enough to merit front-page news. Besides, once Rita was banned from the castle, she had to be very careful who she revealed her ability to. So the chances of finding someone she could trust, who had actually witnessed Hermione and Krum together, and actually cared enough to tell a reporter would've been very low.

Actually, I meant Harry seeing them together in a romantic capacity as a couple - direct evidence presented on page. Rita making a claim like that in an article would be no different than Ginny's assumption in HBP - it would have no direct evidence on page to support it. Harry witnessing something like that - or Hermione telling him about it herself - would be the only viable evidence to support Ginny's claim because the story was presented from his POV.

And who's to say they didn't spend an afternoon in the library with Rita watching, only eventually getting bored when she realizes nothing exciting is going to happen, then walking to the entrance hall together and stepping into an alcove or something for a quick kiss goodnight before they go their separate ways? And if someone IS around, they just don't kiss, Krum (being the gentleman Hermione says he is) understanding it makes Hermione uncomfortable. I'm sure over 4-6 months they'd find at least half a dozen opportunities to kiss unobserved from this strategy alone. And it took me five seconds to think of. I'm sure Hermione could've been a lot more inventive.

The text says they never did anything like that because there's no evidence in the text that would even suggest it. They spent time together in the library, but that was the extent of it. As far as the text shows, Hermione was never alone with Krum - they were always in places where other people were around.

Likewise, the corridors at Hogwarts are not private places either - as was clearly demonstrated by Harry and Ron walking up on Ginny kissing Dean in HBP.

Let's put it this way...Harry who has always been much more in the focus of the media, teachers and other students has found plenty of ways to sneak off and away from watchful eyes as shown to us in the books. If he can, Hermione most certainly can.

And Harry's adventures were also well known and talked about - as we see in OOTP when various students start listing off the things he had done over the years and explaining how they found out about them even though nobody else was around to witness most of those things. Every time Harry sneaked out, the Fat Lady knew about it - and she would have told her friend, Vi, who would have told other portraits, who would have said something to other students - and so on and so forth.

Again, there must be direct evidence on page to demonstrate Hermione ever doing something like that - either witnessed by Harry or Hermione telling Harry about it - in order for that to be true. If there is no barking, there is no dog. As I said before, the lack of evidence doesn't prove anything - it only makes it more unlikely.

If Ginny didn't know, she could've just said she didn't know. Your way makes it more complicated for no reason whatsoever. And there's nothing to support that Neville is more likely to tell that to Ginny than Hermione considering Ginny and Neville hadn't spoken on-page up to that point. I don't know why you replace a minor assumption with an even bigger one and ask me to believe it instead. And if Ginny witnessed Krum asking Hermione, surely someone else witnessed it as well and would've spread the news. You have been arguing how gossip-y the Halls of Hogwarts are, so surely the news of Krum's date to the ball would've spread as fast as wildfire, eventually reaching Ron's ears.

Considering what we see of Hermione and Ginny, I would say that Neville is far more likely because Hermione would never confide anything personal to Ginny from what we're shown. She and Ginny didn't spend any time together at school in GOF. They were in different years so they had different schedules and were in different dorms since the students were divided up by year as well as by house.

However, I actually think the most likely scenario there would be Ginny being in the library at the time where she could see them and/or overhear what they were saying. We know other students would have witnessed it because it happened in the library where other students would have been present so it's very possible Ginny did as well. The gossip not reaching Ron prior to the ball doesn't change the fact that other students would have been in the library to witness that. The library was a public place after all.

Just because you confide in someone about one thing, doesn't mean you have to spill all of your secrets. Again, weren't you arguing about how often Harry lies and keeps secrets, not only from Hermione but from Ron as well, his two biggest confidants? I see no reason Hermione couldn't have discussed Krum with Ginny but never told her about Ron. In fact, it'd be quite weird and unusual if Ginny asked Hermione for advice or Hermione offered it unprompted but Hermione didn't share anything personal as well. I know we see Hermione as the unrewarded helper of Harry all the time, but usually friendship (even casual friendship) is a two-way street.

I think that is unlikely simply because Hermione and Ginny were never shown to be that close. Hermione would never have said anything to Ginny about Krum because that would involve discussing her feelings about Ron as well. Hermione's romantic interest was always in Ron and that was the entire reason why she was never interested in Krum beyond being friends. She wanted Ron to ask her to the ball and only accepted Krum's invitation because of Ron's troll comment from what we're shown. Immediately after the ball, she directly told Ron he should ask her out on a date. Any discussion about Krum would have to involve Hermione explaining why she was not interested in Krum - which also means Ginny never would have made the assumption about them snogging because she would have known the whole story from the start.

I do agree that it is very possible that Ginny asked Hermione questions, but from what we're shown, Hermione would not have answered them - or she would have given vague answers to avoid lying like she did with Ron in POA regarding how she was attending two classes at the same time. That could certainly play into Ginny's assumption because refusing to answer or giving vague responses would leave Ginny open to make various assumptions, IMO.

The difference between what Hermione knows about Cho and Ginny knows about Hermione is that Hr & G are at the very least acquaintances and house mates, whereas nothing connects Hr & Cho. Hermione HAD to overhear things and make assumptions because it was the only way she could know. But it is well within the scope of Ginny's and Hermione's relationship to discuss things, and not only that but to discuss boys in particular.

It's within the scope of their relationship for Ginny to ask Hermione questions and talk about herself a lot as well as for Hermione to give Ginny advice. That is consistent with Ginny's characterization - as well as her early crush on Harry and knowing that Hermione was one of Harry's best friends. However, we have no evidence that would support the reverse being true - and quite a bit of evidence that demonstrates the opposite because Ginny never knew anything significant about Hermione from what we're shown.

Regardless of what Hermione may or may not have said to Ginny in GOF, if they had been close friends in any capacity, Hermione would have turned to Ginny for comfort when she was so hurt and angry in HBP. Yet Ginny didn't even know Ron and Hermione were fighting during that time and was never seen even speaking to her during that time - let alone trying to comfort her. Ironically, it was Luna who noticed Hermione was upset - and knew it was because of Ron - and tried to comfort Hermione. Likewise, Hermione never knew about Ron and Ginny's argument so it does not appear that she and Ginny were talking to each other at all at that time.

And I don't know why you think Ginny would be influenced by the article. Harry and Ron thought it all poppycock until Hermione confessed that the part about Krum WAS indeed correct. If Ginny liked Harry like we know she did, it makes more sense to either confront Hermione directly about the article, or to assume all of it was a fabrication.

Harry and Hermione knew it was poppycock because it was written about them. They had to tell Ron it was poppycock. Harry also had to tell Molly it wasn't true. Ginny wouldn't have confronted Hermione about it at that time - she wasn't dating Harry nor was she part of their inner circle at that time.

To be clear, I'm sure Ginny did not believe that Harry and Hermione were dating or that Hermione was stringing both boys along. That wasn't what I meant. It's more likely that Ginny would have assumed that Hermione and Krum were dating and Rita made up the love triangle so she could feature Harry in the article as well. We have to remember that Rita did use some truth in her articles - she twisted facts around for sensationalism, but she did use true facts along with the lies. Hermione did go to the Yule Ball with Krum. Krum did have feelings for Hermione and had told her that he had never felt that way about another girl before. Krum did invite Hermione to visit him in Bulgaria that summer. People were gossiping about Hermione and Krum before the article came out so Ginny would have seen the article as confirmation that Hermione was dating Krum, IMO.

Actually, thank you for raising this point because in the past I've thought Rita's articles were the perfect catalyst for Ginny and Hermione to talk more seriously. If Ginny had ever had the same insecure suspicions Ron did about H/Hr, I could see her finally having the courage to confront Hermione about them in the face of their articles and their expanded relationship after spending the summer together at the Burrow. Hermione assuring Ginny that she wasn't Harry's girlfriend after the first article could've opened the door to them talking more at school and the discussion of dates before the ball. The second article imo is perfectly timed for Hermione to give her advice to Ginny about pursuing Michael. It's very easy to imagine Hermione giving this advice based on her own experience with a wistful look in her eye without mentioning the name of the boy she herself is trying to move on from while still hoping he'd notice her.

Ginny would have known all along that Harry and Hermione were not dating. She saw them together at the Burrow and in the common room after all and their behavior towards each other was never romantic at all. Ginny never had any insecurities about Harry being friends with Hermione. It was quite the opposite from what we're shown - it appears Ginny saw Hermione as a good source of information about Harry because they were friends. It was Cho who was insecure and jealous about Hermione - but that was in OOTP.

I could see Ginny asking Hermione about Krum - particularly after the article - but as I said above, I think Hermione would refuse to answer her questions or give vague answers to avoid lying because she wasn't good at lying.

Anyway, it's clear to me you like things spelled out in text to believe them. That's certainly understandable. But then as a R/Hr shipper, I'm curious if you think they had a 'friendship' off page? Because on the page, the only things I know they did together when Harry wasn't around was play chess, do homework, and talk about Harry. Of course, I don't believe that was the extent of their off-page relationship, but I do have to infer the rest and I'm wondering what your feelings are on the matter.

I wouldn't say it has to be spelled out specifically on page - after all, there is a lot of textual evidence regarding events that occurred off page. For example, we know that Hermione spent time alone with Ron in the hospital wing after he was poisoned because Ron mentioned it to Harry. We also know that Ginny and Hermione came to see Harry while he was unconscious after he was hit in the head with a bludger because Ron told him about it. We know that Ron and Harry didn't speak to each other during their detention with Snape in GOF because Harry's thoughts reveal that - the detention itself occurred off page. A lot of things happen off page that Harry is told about after the fact - or overhears something about after the fact.

My point is that there must be some type of textual evidence to support Ginny's claim. We can't just assume something happened off page without any textual evidence to support that. For example, Jo could easily have shown Hermione coming in late for one of the trio's practice sessions and telling them she had been taking a walk with Krum. The event itself would have occurred off page, but we would have textual evidence to support the two of them spending time together outside of the library - apart from their one date at the Yule Ball and the brief time by the lake after the second task where they were surrounded by other people. Jo could also have added little details to that scene that would indicate they did more than walk - Hermione's hair being disheveled, her robes being rumpled, blushing when she mentioned the walk - which would isolate her reaction to Krum rather than connecting it to Ron the way her blush about his invitation was connected to Ron asking her about it.

Likewise, she could have had Parvatti and/or Lavender come over and ask Hermione questions because they had seen her leave the library with Krum. She could have them ask Harry questions because Hermione wouldn't tell them anything - similar to having Lavender ask Harry why Ron didn't take Hermione to the Yule Ball. She could have had Harry see Hermione and Krum together in what he thought was an intimate moment and steer Ron away so he wouldn't see them. There are a lot of ways Jo could have put textual evidence in GOF that would support the claim that Hermione and Krum were making out at some point during that book, but she chose not to do so and I think that is significant.

There's nothing to support that Hermione cares one lick for the privacy of anyone but herself. She certainly has no problem asking Harry straight up about the kiss even when it was apparent he wasn't going to say anything himself, nor with asking him about his Valentine's date when once again Harry kept his mouth shut.

Asking Harry directly about the kiss and the date was not a violation of his privacy - he could have refused to tell her about those things after all. It's not like Hermione followed him around to spy on him or learned Legillimency so she could get information out of him without his consent. Harry chose to answer her on both occasions. Telling someone else what Harry told her in confidence would be a violation of his privacy because he never consented to that.

In fact, she is the one who tells us, Ron and Harry that Ginny is dating Michael which doesn't show much respect for Ginny's privacy. Even if it wasn't told to Hermione in-confidence, she obviously believed Ginny didn't want Ron to know, yet told him anyway. No, I see quite a lot of evidence that Hermione doesn't have a strong sense of privacy when it comes to others.

From what we're shown, it wasn't a secret that Ginny was dating Michael Corner - other people knew about it after all. Ginny wasn't hiding the relationship. Ron hadn't noticed anything because they weren't spending time with Ginny at that point - not at Hogwarts. Ginny chose not to say anything to her brothers directly because they were all very overprotective of her, but there's no indication that she was ever trying to keep that a secret or that she told Hermione that in confidence. She certainly had no problem in announcing that she was going to go talk to Michael in front of Ron and the twins after Umbridge's decree disbanding all groups. That was a very different situation from Harry's kiss with Cho, IMO.

Actually, perhaps the most relevant example is when Hermione tells Harry that Ron is jealous after his name pops out of the goblet. Obviously Hermione over-simplified the situation to the point that she made things worse, but nevertheless she wasn't at all hesitant to reveal something very personal about Ron to Harry because she hoped it would help Harry to understand and reconcile with Ron. So if Hermione thought telling Ginny would help her, then yeah I completely believe she was capable of 'betraying Harry's trust.'

I do agree that Hermione oversimplified things and she didn't have all the facts to draw a more accurate conclusion from because she didn't witness the argument or hear what they said to each other - and telling Harry that certainly did make the situation worse, IMO. However, Hermione was only speculating and sharing her conclusions with Harry. That didn't violate Ron's privacy because it was not something Ron told her in confidence.

Exactly. If it was an assumption which caused all that damage in HBP, why wasn't the record ever set straight? Why, when it could've been cleared up with a question from Harry to Hermione, or from overhearing Ron and Hermione discussing it like they did the Slughorn invite, or at the wedding in DH?

Because it wasn't significant to the overall story. That was something that was resolved between Ron and Hermione in private. That wasn't something Harry would have felt comfortable discussing with Hermione - as evidenced by his thoughts about it in HBP. He wasn't even comfortable discussing it with Ron and tried to avoid discussing it - which was part of why he spent so much time sitting in silence while they ranted. Nor was it something Hermione would have even considered discussing with Harry - particularly when she didn't know about Ginny saying that to Ron. After it was resolved, I can't see either of them dragging it all out again for Harry's benefit because his only concern was that things were okay between them. Harry didn't need to know all the details - or really want to. It didn't matter to him how they resolved it - just that they did.

Initially, I thought that it would be significant - I expected that issue to come up again in DH with Hermione finding out about what Ginny said and confronting her about it. However, in hindsight, there really wasn't a plausible way for that to happen because it was such a private thing - and was most likely resolved during Hermione's off page visits to Ron in the hospital wing in HBP. There is a distinct difference in their behavior and interaction with each other after that so we know that they resolved some of those issues at that time. There's no evidence as to whether or not Hermione ever confronted Ginny about it, but their relationship wasn't significant to the story at all so that's not really an issue that needed to be resolved on page. Ron may have decided not to tell Hermione who told him that to prevent any more arguing - or Hermione might have confronted Ginny about it in private and that played a part in Ginny being so irritated with her after the Sectumsempra incident. We can only speculate, but it's not really important. What matters is that we can see the issue was resolved between Ron and Hermione.

I understand that you doubt anything happened, but I still fail to see why Ginny would make this assumption, Harry (who has very little experience of his own and knows Hermione better than the reader) would agree with the assumption no questions asked, and Ron who knows Hermione best out of anyone accepts it once he can no longer delude himself with wishful thinking all because "that's what people do when they date," yet you are writing all these posts with the premise "That's NOT what Hermione and Krum did."

Why did not one of Hermione's friends (and regardless of how close anyone thinks Ginny and Hermione were or weren't, she at least knew more about Hermione than 95% of the rest of the characters) end up with a different assumption than your assumption when she had access to all the same facts you did (if not more)? What about Harry, whose eyes filter everything for us?

Because the reader knows more information than either Ginny or Harry due to the objective, third person narrator. Harry didn't know Hermione very well at all - as demonstrated by his assumption that Hermione would be attracted to Krum simply because he was a famous Quidditch player. The reader knows that Hermione didn't care about that at all - Harry did not from what we're shown. Ginny knew even less about Hermione than Harry did. Hermione had to share a room with Ginny at the Burrow and Grimmauld Place because they were the only girls, but she spent the majority of her time with Harry and Ron. Ginny was the outsider at that time - they didn't include her. That begins to change in OOTP, but they still limit what they say in front of Ginny and stick to the stuff they learn about the Order and the fight against Voldemort for the most part.

I agree that Ron knew Hermione best and he should have known she would never have lied to him that way - particularly since he was always the one who could tell when she was lying. At the very least, Ron should have tried to talk to Hermione about it so she could give her side of the story instead of giving her the cold shoulder that week. However, Ron was also extremely insecure and he let his fears get the best of him. He couldn't be objective about it because of his feelings and his fears were primarily rooted in his doubts about himself. He couldn't see any reason why Hermione would ever be attracted to him and felt she should be attracted to someone like Krum - or Harry - because he considered both of them to be superior to him. They were both famous, they both had money, they had both been chosen as champions, they were both really good at Quidditch - and so on. Ron was projecting his own doubts about himself. Realizing that he was completely wrong about all of that was part of Ron's journey and the largest part of that was realizing and accepting his own self worth. He couldn't see how wrong he was about Hermione until he was able to see how wrong he was about himself.

And I think you overlooked my point: Ginny made her statement to embarrass Ron, to show that everyone else was kissing and knew it was okay except for Ron who treated it like something disgusting because he'd never been kissed. But if she was only assuming, then Harry and Hermione might NOT have kissed anyone either. Harry was right there and could've said "Well I never kissed Cho" and they could've found Hermione who might've said "I never kissed Viktor." Ginny would've looked like an idiot. Not only would her attempt to embarrass Ron fail miserably, but it actually would make her look more like the scarlet woman Ron suggested she was by showing that she was the only one out there snogging people.

Ginny wanted to prove the point that kissing was no big deal - I agree with you there. However, she was also way off base regarding Ron's reaction because he wasn't trying to say that kissing was disgusting or even that Ginny shouldn't kiss her boyfriend at all. It was the location Ron objected to because they were in a public corridor where anyone could walk up on them - as Ron and Harry did - and he didn't want people saying bad things about his sister. Of course, that's also what makes Ron choosing to the the same thing with Lavender - to an even greater degree because the common room was even more public and there was already a crowd of people there - hypocritical.

There are various issues with Ginny's argument though - the assumptions she was making were only part of the problem. Primarily the issue was privacy because the corridor was a public place. Using Harry as an example was a bad choice because Cho kissed him in the Room of Requirement after everyone else had left so they were completely alone. Hermione assumed Harry and Cho had kissed that night because she knew they liked each other and had noticed that Cho stuck around - that's why she asked Harry about it when he got back to the common room. That's also a possibility for Ginny's assumption because she would have been at that meeting and could have noticed that Cho stuck around as well. Still, that example creates a large hole in Ginny's argument because Harry and Cho did not choose to kiss in a public location.

I think that demonstrates just how angry and embarrassed Ginny was in that situation because she really wasn't thinking things through. Not only could she have been wrong - as you pointed out - but Ron could also have countered her argument by pointing out that Harry and Ginny were not kissing in public. Ginny got lucky in that Ron was too angry about her claiming Hermione was making out with Krum to think of that. However, that's normal for an argument - people often say things without thinking them through when they are angry.

Now, it might've been worth the risk if she knew how devastated Ron would be over Hermione kissing Krum. But you and I agree that she didn't intend to have that effect, so for me, that's just a very big assumption and a very big risk for her to take for what should've been a very small expected payoff.

Honestly, I don't think Ginny was intentionally trying to hurt Ron. I think she just wanted to make the point that kissing was no big deal and totally missed the point Ron was trying to make about it being a public location. Likewise, Ginny was already operating under a huge misconception with her assumption that it was Ron who told the twins about her dating Dean - which she had snapped at him about when they went to the joke shop and the twins interrogated her. Ron hadn't even seen the twins prior to that day so they found out some other way, but Ginny blamed him for that anyway and had been angry with him over it for a while. Ginny was making a lot of assumptions in that situation - assuming that her brothers didn't want her to kiss anyone at all was one of them.

Overall, I think Ginny was just rebelling against what she saw as her family trying to keep her in the "baby sister" mold forever. She wanted to prove she was grown up, but she wasn't really mature enough to pull it off because, every time she tried to prove that, she made very immature choices. I do think that Ginny's behavior in HBP is realistic - she was 15 and that really is a very difficult and awkward age because, as much as you want to believe you're grown up and think you have all the answers, you're not quite there yet.

Uh, I think Ron needed to feel attractive to girls considering how he acted when Hermione went on about how fanciable Harry was right in front of him, so no that wasn't something unique to Hermione. And no, a one-sided romance doesn't count. Otherwise, Ron already had that with Rosemerta and Hermione with Lockhart. What you say is true in that it all helped Hermione feel more attractive, but that doesn't equate to being experienced romance. Furthermore, if feeling unattractive was Hermione's only problem and it was solved by the end of GoF, there would've been nothing to stop her from moving in on Ron from the start of OotP on. Yet the invitation to Slughorn's Ball (the next time Hermione inarguably demonstrates her interest in Ron) doesn't come for over a year and a half after the Yule Ball.

I agree that Ron needed to realize that girls could find him attractive - there is a similarity between Ron and Hermione there in that they were both very insecure and they each had doubts about the other returning their feelings because of their own doubts about themselves. However, Ron also needed to learn that there was more to being in a romantic relationship than just making out all the time and that was the bigger issue with his relationship with Lavender because he had always demonstrated a somewhat shallow view of dating and relationships in that regard.

Hermione didn't need that - she already knew what she wanted in a relationship. Romantic experience is not limited to actually being in a relationship with someone and/or having physical interaction like kissing. Being actively courted - even when you don't return those feelings - is also romantic experience because there are lessons to be learned there. Hermione realizing that guys could find her attractive was only part of her journey, but it was an important first step.

Also - because I forgot to mention it before - the quote you mentioned where Jo talked about Harry and Hermione getting action wasn't quite accurate. What Jo actually said was that Ron thought Hermione had gotten some action. Accio Quote is not loading so I can't look up the interview for the exact quote, but this has come up before and Jo's comment was framed around Ron's perception of those events rather than what actually happened. And after Ginny dropped that bombshell, that is what Ron thought and that influenced his later decisions.

No, feeling unattractive was not Hermione's only hindrance to a romance with Ron. And I don't see the fact that Hermione knew she wanted Ron as meaning she couldn't like Viktor too. By HBP Ron knew he wanted Hermione, yet he still went and got off with Lavender and even might've genuinely liked her at the start. Ginny liked Harry yet dated Michael and Dean. Why do we want to hold Hermione to a different standard than all of her peers?

Actually, Jo has confirmed that Ron was never emotionally involved with Lavender. Ron made that choice because he wanted to prove a point to both Ginny and Hermione. Ginny because she made fun of him for not kissing anyone and Hermione because he thought she had lied to him and wanted her to see that someone else wanted to kiss him too. He chose Lavender because she had been flirting with him and that was a boost to his wounded ego. That's why the shine wore off so quickly and he began avoiding Lavender whenever possible - and that was part of his lesson in realizing that there was a lot more to being in a relationship than making out all the time.

It's not about what Hermione could do - it's about what she did do and what is presented in the text. Jo could have done a lot of things with that scenario - as I said before. Instead, she chose to show on page that Hermione only wanted to be friends with Krum so the evidence presented in GOF is contradictory to Ginny's claim in HBP that they were making out. And not being romantically attracted to Krum certainly does not mean that Hermione did not like him. Obviously she liked him - she thought he was a nice guy and wanted to be friends with him. She wouldn't have wanted to be friends with him if she didn't like him.

As Jo said, these relationships were not really about physical experience. They were about emotional growth - and Ron needed more emotional development so his experience was more extensive than Harry's or Hermione's because of that. Hermione's journey wasn't entirely about realizing that another guy could find her attractive, but that was the primary concern in GOF - that's where we first discover Hermione's vanity and that she doesn't see herself as pretty. That was the significance of her experience with Krum.

I agree that there were other issues that Hermione had to deal with, but those were also specific to her relationship with Ron and she had to deal with those things with Ron. Ron had to work through those issues as well - their mutual insecurities, problems with communication, and neither of them being willing to take the risk of admitting their feelings without being 100% certain that they were reciprocated. Ron and Hermione had to complete that part of their journey with each other.

And saying that the invite to Bulgaria counts as "getting some action" is total interpretation on your part and I see no evidence in any interview discussing romance or snogging that JKR would agree with you on that one.

Jo never said that Hermione actually got any action either - only that Ron thought she had. Still, any romantic interaction counts in that regard. That's just how romance works. The invitation was very intimate because Krum was from another country and he was asking Hermione to leave her home to be with him. Even Krum asking Hermione to the Yule Ball would count as action in that respect.

Yes, but the differences here were that you were both on the same page. There was a connection as you say. Well, connections go two ways, yet you're saying Hermione felt nothing but friendship for Viktor in return.

Attraction can be an immediate response. Harry was immediately attracted to Cho without ever having spent any time with her - or even speaking to her. He fantasized about her in GOF long before he ever got up the courage to actually talk to her. Attraction is not about connections - and that's where that ends because Hermione didn't feel any romantic attraction or connection to Krum. Krum was attracted to Hermione long before he spoke to her.

I do agree that Hermione not being bowled over by Krum's fame would've been very attractive to him, but an actual lack of feelings? I'm sorry, but I don't see how that's a turn on for anyone. Push him to make more of an effort because she's playing hard to get? Certainly. But actually make his feelings deeper? No, that's completely illogical and I don't think it makes any sense whatsoever.

It's not uncommon for people to want something even more simply because they can't have it. I wouldn't go so far as to say Krum wanted Hermione because she had no feelings. I think it was more about the challenge actually. She was different from all those other girls because she didn't throw herself at him and wasn't impressed by his fame at all. He actually had to put some effort into getting her attention. I think Krum did believe that Hermione could return his feelings and that's why he thought Harry was the reason she didn't after Rita's article came out. To hear Krum tell it, the only thing he and Hermione did when they were together was talk - about Harry.

Sorry but now I'm confused. They did spend more time together than what we saw? But I thought you said all her time was accounted for, that she was too busy, that Ron and Harry would've noticed her missing and gone to the library to look for her.

You're making two points in different places that contradict one another. You say all her time is accounted for, yet admit meetings did go on that we never got to see.

All of her time was accounted for - including those times she saw Krum in the library. It's not necessary to directly show it on page to account for it - Hermione's on page explanation suffices. For example, Hermione's research for SPEW involved a great deal of time in the library, but none of that was shown on page because Harry didn't go with her. That time was still accounted for because Hermione told them where she was - and eventually explained what she had been doing.

As I said before, I never said Hermione only spent time with Krum on three occasions. I said she only spent time with Krum in three locations - the library, the Great Hall during the Yule Ball, and by the lake after the second task. We know she spoke to him several times in the library because she talks about it on page. It's not how often they saw each other that is significant here - it's the location because those were public places where they were surrounded by other people and would not have been making out.

So why should I assume that Hermione informed the boys of every meeting when we know that isn't the case, or why every meeting had to be in the library when again there's no hint in the books that this was the situation? What I do know is that they must've met more than the three times in the books, and that Hermione has shown herself more than capable of withholding information about her relationship with Viktor from Harry and Ron on multiple occasions. These two things are absolutely facts based on no assumptions whatsoever. So, no I don't think we got anywhere close to the whole story on what went down between them.

No assumption is necessary because all of that is explained on page. Hermione tells them about seeing Krum in the library. She does tell them when she's going to the library - or they were with her. And Hermione showed herself capable of refusing to answer questions, but not lying - Ron could always tell when Hermione was lying. She told them that she had a date admitted that she didn't want to say who it was because she thought they would laugh at her. And she knew they would find out at the Ball anyway so it was a moot point.

The point being that Harry and Ron always knew where Hermione was because she always told them - even in POA when she was dodging explanations she told them about going to those classes that were scheduled for the same times. She just refused to explain how she was doing it.

There's no indication that Hermione only saw Krum as a friend either. Every blush Hermione gets when mentioning Viktor very well could be to do with Ron, but since we have the example of Lockhart, there's support that they could've been for Krum as well.

Hermione says herself several times that she and Krum were never anything more than friends - she put a great deal of effort into convincing Ron of that so he would stop being jealous of Krum.

Well I feel just the opposite. If McLaggen had truly 'forced' himself on Hermione, there would've been enough of a commotion for someone to notice and step in. Which leads into your next point.

Presuming the menton of mistletoe was more than just a joke, I think it much more likely that McLaggen surprised her with a kiss than actually forced himself on her. To me, such a thing isn't all the traumatic to a girl who has already been kissed. Disgusting, yes which is why she does everything she can to avoid him, but not traumatized. I see her squirreling her way out of his arms and away from his lips before making some excuse to flee the scene. To me, this perfectly fits with Cormac's attitude when he talks to Harry and Hermione's disheveled appearance

I guess I'm having trouble picturing how you imagined Hermione getting disheveled while escaping McLaggen, which is why I don't really understand what you're suggesting.

Not necessarily. Force doesn't always involve violence after all and I doubt Hermione wanted to cause a scene. She was embarrassed enough as it was I think. Catching her by surprise would still be force because Hermione neither wanted to invited him to kiss her and it's obvious there was a struggle because Harry notes that Hermione looks like she fought her way out of Devil's Snare.

From the way Hermione describes it, it appears that McLaggen maneuvered her under the mistletoe and tried to kiss her with Hermione struggling to get away from him - which is why she was so disheveled when Harry saw her. McLaggen was very conceited and probably thought she was just playing hard to get. Regardless, Hermione did say she escaped and I think that is enough to know that he did not succeed in forcing an unwanted kiss on her.

No, but neither was the issue of the Firebolt either. By that point, what did it matter who sent it to Harry. Yet we're told so Hermione could get her "I told you so" in at the end of PoA.

Actually that was important because Harry's relationship with Sirius had changed by then and knowing the Firebolt did come from Sirius and was a gift sent out of love was important to Harry. Jo mirrors this moment in DH with Harry finding out that Sirius was the one who gave him first broom when he was a year old as well. That's important to Harry's relationship with Sirius and his grief over losing him after such a brief time.

Whether the kiss happened may not've been a relevant plot point by the end of HBP, but it definitely is an important character point for all three members of the trio in terms of trust, honesty and openness. Revealing that Hermione HADN'T kissed Krum would've certainly prompted a response from Ron and Hermione (probably not Harry, admittedly). Whereas revealing that she HAD kissed Krum would've prompted nothing more than a regretful 'oh, yes' out of Hermione.

Not really. That was a private matter between Ron and Hermione and we didn't get to see how all of those private issues were resolved because that happens off page and neither Ron nor Hermione ever discuss such things with Harry. The same is true for Ron choosing to start dating Lavender after he had accepted Hermione's invitation to Slughorn's part - we know they discussed this and resolved it because their behavior towards each other - as well as Hermione's attitude towards Lavender - changes significantly after Ron is poisoned. How they resolved it and what they said to each other was never revealed on page because it was a private moment and neither of them discussed it with Harry.

That's the limitation of third person limited omniscient. Presenting the story from Harry's POV limits what can be revealed regarding secondary characters like Ron and Hermione. We don't get their thoughts at all and if Harry is not there to witness it, we don't know what they're saying or doing unless they actually tell Harry about it. Or someone else does. Harry has to see it or hear about it in order for the reader to know what happened.

Likewise, that would only be significant to the characters if Ginny was right about her assumption because that would mean that Hermione intentionally lied to Ron every time she told him that she and Krum were never anything more than friends when they were actually carrying on a secret romantic relationship that they hid from everyone. That would be a very negative aspect to add to Hermione's character and that all of Ron's doubts and fears had been right all along. And that's not what we're shown at all. Hermione's just not the type of person who would do something that horrible. If she had been dating Krum, then she would have told them that she was dating Krum in GOF. She wouldn't have hidden it - she would have asked Krum to join her for meals and invited him to Hosgmeade for a date where everyone could see them. It would also mean that Ginny intentionally and callously betrayed Hermione's confidence - and if Hermione was dating Krum in secret and lying about it she certainly would have told Ginny not to say anything to anyone. Ginny could be immature and rude at times, but she was not the type of person who would deliberately betray someone she considered a friend.

That's a large part of why Ginny's assumption falls apart when you look at what is actually presented in GOF. There was never any reason for Hermione to hide a romantic relationship if she had been involved in one - or to lie about it afterward if that had been the case. She had no reason to keep a secret like that. She wasn't dating Ron at the time - nor had either of them admitted their feelings for each other. That's a scenario that simply does not work and it is not consistent with Hermione or Ginny's characterizations at all, IMO.

Ginny being wrong in her assumption has no impact because she was wrong. Hermione did not lie in that scenario. Ginny did not betray anyone. That comes down to Ginny misconstruing information and Ron making a mistake by not discussing it with Hermione. Those are issues that they needed to resolve, but they weren't significant to the story so they could be resolved off page with the reader only seeing the results.

Yes, but what Amortentia smelled like to Hermione wasn't a relevant plot point whatsoever. Whether Hermione kissed Krum or not created an entire subplot in HBP which eventually tied into the main plot. And the evidence doesn't HAVE to exist in GoF to support Ginny's assumption. She believes it, Harry believes it, Ron believes it and it's never refuted on page and I believe it's supported by JKR's quotes about the trio's love lives following the release of HBP. We as readers have gone off of far less when trusting JUST Harry's gut feelings before. There was no evidence in GoF because it would've completely ruined the surprise of it in HBP, so of course JRK didn't want to include evidence in that book to hinder a plot she was saving for two books later. This isn't a mistake or a flaw or bad writing. Rather it's very skillful use of misdirection: everyone was wondering after GoF whether Hermione would visit Krum or not. OotP makes it appear that this was highly unlikely if not impossible. Readers sit back, believing they have all the answers onto to be hit in HBP with information they probably hadn't even considered.

Whether or not Hermione kissed Krum was not important at all because the underlying issue there was the lack of communication. That was a situation that could have easily been avoided if Ron had simply gone to Hermione and discussed it with her. Likewise, Hermione could have confronted Ron and demanded that he explain why he was suddenly mad at her when she hadn't done anything. That was the root of the problem - neither of them even attempted to discuss it. Learning how to communicate with each other to avoid issues like this was part of Ron and Hermione's journey. We get enough information to know that they did resolve it and we see the results in that they have much better communication with each other after this experience.

In order for Ginny's claim to be true, the evidence must be present on page in GOF because that's where the kiss would have occurred. There's no getting around that. Harry believing it is irrelevant because his believe is based on an incorrect assumption in and of itself - he thinks Hermione would want Krum because he's a famous Quidditch player. Ginny believing it is irrelevant as well because there is no evidence to support her claim. Ron believing it was shown to be due to his insecurities and part of his journey was realizing that he was wrong about all of that.

What they believe is not always what actually happened. Ginny and Hermione believed that Molly was inviting Tonks over in hopes that Bill would fall for her and dump Fleur, but that is not supported by the text - though it was never confirmed or denied on page. It's more likely that Molly was inviting Tonks over simply to comfort her because of the situation with Lupin. It's certainly possible that she might have hoped Bill and Tonks might get together, but it's not very likely since she was so supported of Tonks being with Lupin and criticized him for rejecting her. Harry believed Draco had the Dark Mark in HBP - it was never revealed on page whether or not he actually did. As I said before, there were a lot of questions left unanswered at the end of the series because it simply was not possible to tie up every single loose end - Jo acknowledged that even before DH came out. She knew fans would still have lots of questions - that's why she created Pottermore after all.

We have no idea about Ginny's thought process. None whatsoever. So we have no idea whether or not it's like Harry's. And Harry knew Hermione extremely well, as far as her life at Hogwarts was concerned. Wouldn't you agree, considering he manages to use this knowledge to anticipate when Hermione is going to annoy him and what to say and do in order to avoid it was often as possible?

Harry didn't know Hermione very well as a person. He knew her habits and learned to predict how she might react to certain situations based on his observations, but he never really understood why she did those things. In terms of romance, Harry didn't have a clue - he thought Hermione would kiss Krum just because he was a famous Quidditch player so we know he was way off base there. Likewise, Ginny was shown to have a very similar personality and thought process to Harry many times so I would say it is very likely that she also assumed Hermione would be attracted to Krum because he was a famous Quidditch player. Parvatti shared a dorm with Hermione for six years and makes a similar assumption about Hermione and McLaggen.

And yes, Harry's assumption are proven wrong by the text. This supports rather than damaged my statement. When assumptions are wrong, they are cleared up. This is not the same as things left unanswered like the third amortentia smell. I'm talking about characters believing one thing and learning they are wrong. For instance, Hermione assumes Tonks loved Sirius and Harry buys into it only to be proven wrong at the end of the book.

I'd be more than happy to concede this point if there is some evidence where at least two of the main characters make an assumption that is wrong yet are never corrected. But I don't believe any exists.

Actually, it was Harry who assumed Tonks was in love with Sirius. Hermione assumed that Tonks was suffering from survivor's guilt - and it was never revealed on page whether or not Hermione was right about that. The issue with Lupin does not rule out survivor's guilt and it certainly could have been the combination of the two that caused Tonks to become so depressed that she had difficulty with her morphing abilities. We can only speculate about that because it was never revealed though. Harry also makes jokes about Madame Pince and Filch dating - we never got anything further on that either, but many fans have speculated about the possibility since Harry brought it up.

If it is an issue that is important to the plot, it must be resolved on page to show whether the assumption was right or wrong. Minor issues like the possibility of Tonks suffering from survivor's guilt and whether or not Hermione kissed another boy a couple years back were not significant to the plot and could be resolved off page because all that mattered there was the end result.

Another example was Harry's assumption that Draco had the Dark Mark in HBP - it was never revealed whether or not he had the Dark Mark at that time. He probably did, but we can't say that with any certainty. Molly and Hermione both assumed that Sirius was attempting to recreate his friendship with James through Harry, but it was never revealed on page whether or not that was the case - and that's still an issue that gets debated among fans to this day. Luna and her father assume that Fudge was part of various conspiracies - like having a secret army of fire creatures - but it was never revealed on page whether or not they were right about any of that. Harry and his friends assume they were wrong, but it's never addressed specifically on page. They also believe in creatures like the Crumple-Horned Snorckack, but it was never revealed on page whether the creature actually existed. Jo mentioned in an interview that Luna never found one, but that doesn't rule out the existence.

No, that leaves you with two acceptable options. Hermione kissing Krum off page fits perfectly fine into the books from where I am sitting. And it doesn't contradict a single line of text in GoF either.

It contradicts everything presented in GOF actually because there was no means, motive, or opportunity for Hermione to have been making out with Krum in that book. It can only be a poorly constructed retcon or an assumption made by Ginny from what we're shown.

Snogging is not just a simple kiss. It's British slang for making out - Ron and Lavender were snogging in the common room. Now, I could see Hermione letting Krum give her a peck on the cheek - or maybe even a peck on the lips with their mouths closed - to be polite during the Yule Ball - though even that seems unlikely with Harry witnessing them saying good night because he would have said something if that had happened, IMO. I cannot see Hermione making out like Ron and Lavender were with a boy she barely knew and demonstrated no romantic attraction to at all.

And it does put Hermione in a bad light, but it's not like Hermione ever was this perfect little angel so many fans thought of her as. I don't see how it paints Ginny in a negative way...oh you mean by confessing Hermione's confidences? Yes, I suppose Hermione would have the right to be upset about that. But at the same time, Hermione dug her own grave, not only by being so secretive about Krum in the first place, but by not telling Ginny about her feelings for Ron.

Deliberately hiding a romantic relationship and lying about it for over two years does a lot of damage to Hermione's characterization actually. It changes how she was presented entirely. The issue is not Hermione being perfect, but rather being a decent person who would never use and manipulate people in such a manner. Hermione was never presented as such a deceptive, manipulative person - on the contrary, she was terrible at lying and I really can't see Hermione being so cruel to both Krum and Ron in such a horrible way.

As for Ginny, that would mean she is cold, callous person who would intentionally betray a friend's confidence - more so because, if that were the case, then Hermione would also have specifically instructed Ginny not to tell Ron because she would have put so much effort into her lies to convince him that she and Krum were never anything more than friends in that scenario. While I don't see any evidence that would suggest Ginny and Hermione were very close, I can't see Ginny deliberately trying to hurt Hermione like that either.

And even if it WAS an assumption made by Ginny, how does that fit Ginny's personality? What other assumptions does Ginny make of that magnitude?

It fits into her personality in that Ginny liked to gossip. Gossip isn't always wrong so sometimes Ginny was right, but there were times when it appeared that she was wrong as well - like Ginny and Hermione assuming Molly was trying to fix Bill of with Tonks so he would dump Fleur. It also fits into her personality in that she would say things without thinking them through when she was angry - which Ron did quite a bit as well.

Originally Posted by birdi86

But Hermione does lead a boy on - Cormac. She boasts about how easy he'll be to snag, and does so for the sole purposes of hurting Ron by taking the guy who nearly beat him for Keeper.

Hermione never boasted that McLaggen would be easy to snag. She told Harry that she asked him to the party because she thought he would irritate Ron the most - her other option being Zacharias Smith. Asking McLaggen to a party is not leading him on, IMO. Just because she asked him to a party did not obligate her to kiss him - or anything else.

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I doubt that Ron would have known the difference because Ron did not know about Krum's invitation until the conversation in OOTP when Hermione is writing to Victor, there's no mention of it at all in GOF (I've just re-read the section at the end of the 2nd task, and the end of the book where Hermione explains about Rita Skeeter...it's always mentioned in the most general of terms, as "private conversation", not one detail). There's nothing at all mentioned about Victor's invitation. So it would be very easy for Hermione to tell Ron the truth about the part of the summer she spent with her parents, and Ron would have no reason to believe there was anything more to be told or ask any questions because he simply did not know about it at that point.

Actually, Hermione told Harry and Ron about Krum inviting her to visit him in Bulgaria after Rita's article about her came out in GOF. The invitation was mentioned in the article and Hermione admitted that part was true. Ron was quite upset and kept asking Hermione what she said to Krum, but Snape interrupted them before Hermione could finish her answer.

Also, Harry notes in OOTP that Ron and Hermione have been writing to him all summer and that he could tell they were together from their letters. Ron later reveals that they went to stay at Grimmauld Place about a week after school had ended so we know that Hermione did not go to Bulgaria. She spent that week with her parents and then went to Grimmauld Place from what we're shown.

Hermione's parents realize she's not like an ordinary muggle. They already give her quite a bit of flexibility because they understand she belongs to the magical world. Hermione comes early to Diagon Alley in POA and stays at the Leaky Cauldron, goes to the Burrow/Quidditch World Cup in GOF, and leaves holiday (skiing) with her parents because Dumbledore tells her what's going on with Harry's freaking out. I doubt there would be any problem with Hermione's traveling for a few days over the summer break. Hermione's parents were doing what they believed was best for their daughter -- letting her lead as far as what she needed (or wanted) to do regarding acclimation to the magical world.

There is a huge difference between Hermione's parents leaving her in the care of Arthur and Molly at The Leaky Cauldron, the Burrow, and Grimmauld Place - having met them and knowing Hermione would be sharing a room with their daughter - and letting her travel alone to another country to stay with a boy they did not know, whose parents they had never met, and without a daughter for her to share a room with. Hermione was only 15 at that point after all. Likewise, Krum was 18 and already had a professional career so he was probably living on his own by then - and I certainly can't see any parent allowing their 15 year old daughter to go stay with an 18 year old boy in another country with no adult supervision.

[TenderHooligan]

Originally Posted by meesha1971

And all the students who were making out with each other were doing so in the garden with Snape very obviously rooting them out and calling them by name. Hermione and Krum were not there - they were in the Great Hall with hundreds of other witnesses.

Where does it say all the students making out were in the garden? Which page is that on? Because I thought there were a handful of named students which Snape caught. In fact, he didn't catch Harry and Ron, so obviously it was possible that some students escaped notice. And there is a chunk of time where we cannot pinpoint Hermione's presence at the Ball. She ran off after her fight with Ron and isn't seen again until much later back on the dance floor with Krum. Maybe she just ran to the loo, or maybe went and talked with Ginny. Or maybe she ran to any of a dozen different places where Krum found her, comforted her and got her back out on the floor. We don't know, but just because we didn't see it isn't evidence it didn't happen.

Anyway, I wasn't even implying that they kissed at the ball, just that Rita might not have even known about Krum/Hermione until the Second Task, or at least until sometime after Hermione's encounter with Rita in Hogsmeade mid-January. She would have no reason to think the pretty girl with Viktor Krum is the Hermione Granger she wrote about in her first article about Harry and would have no reason to follow her around yet. So even IF Rita stuck to Hermione likes flies to honey, there was a minimum of two weeks where Hermione and Krum would've been free of her bug eyes.

Likewise, Harry witnessed Hermione and Krum saying good night to each other after the ball and there was no kissing involved. There is no evidence presented in the text that would suggest there was ever any kissing - or any romantic interest on Hermione's part at all. And from a literary standpoint, in order for Ginny's claim in HBP to be true, there must be evidence within GOF to support it. We should be able to go back to GOF and find the exact moment where that kiss occurred. We can't do that because Hermione was never alone with Krum - they were always surrounded by other people in the library, the Great Hall during the ball, and by the lake after the second task.

[staff edit] There mustn't be anything of the sort. Why must we be able to pinpoint the moment? Must we pinpoint the moment of Harry's and Ginny's second kiss to know it happened? No, but it can be inferred from the text.

All of which is consistent with Hermione seeing Krum on various occasions in the library, their one date at the Yule Ball, and the brief time by the lake after the second task. There is nothing presented in GOF that would support them ever seeing each other in any other location and there were always people in those locations so they would never have been alone. Krum's frustration and confrontation with Harry demonstrates that he wasn't succeeding in courting Hermione - she wasn't interested in him romantically and he thought that was due to her having feelings for Harry. That proves that they were never making out with each other - which is what "snog" actually means - because Krum would have had no reason to doubt Hermione's feelings if she was making out with him, IMO. From what we're shown, Krum was frustrated because Hermione did not respond to him romantically.

No, Krum's encounter with Harry is evidence that the situation wasn't going exactly to his liking and he believed Harry might be a reason for that. That's it. It doesn't prove that they hadn't snogged (I already knew what it meant, but thanks). Maybe Krum wanted to have sex with Hermione but she said no. Or maybe they were snogging like mad but she still hadn't answered him about Bulgaria (or maybe even shot him down) and was confused. Maybe she had admitted she liked him but said she couldn't be his girlfriend. There are dozens of explanations for why Krum wanted to talk to Harry, only one of which is because Hermione rebuffed him completely from a romantic perspective. And that really doesn't make sense, otherwise why would Krum be relieved after talking to Harry? If Hermione was totally uninterested, why is he still trying 5 months after the fact?

It is noted on page that Hermione was with Harry and Ron during her free time at that point in the story. No, she wasn't with them 24/7, but we also have to account for the 10 classes she had in her schedule. It's also noted that McGonagall eventually gave the trio permission to use the transfiguration classroom during their free periods - which was more convenient for them than having to search for an empty classroom to practice in. Hermione's time is accounted for on page - 10 classes, breaks between classes spent with Ron and Harry, meal times spent with Ron and Harry, free periods spent with Ron and Harry, Hogsmeade trips spent with Ron and Harry, the time after curfew spent in the Gryffindor common room with Ron and Harry, overnight in her dorm with Parvatti and Lavender.

They don't start training for the third task until late May. So yeah, for a month she wouldn't have had time for Krum. But she had five months before that where she did. And regardless, if Hermione had time to go to the library during the fall term (which we know she did repeatedly), she'd have the time to do so again in the spring and summer terms up until late May.

And no, the book does not cover every free period, every break, every open period in her schedule. It doesn't. In fact, the book never shows us Hermione overnight in her dorm, none of the books do. She could be up there gabbing away with the girls or knitting elf-hats or writing "I LOVE RON" a million times in her diary. We don't know because the books do not account for that. What they do account for is what's exactly written on the page (and even then, we have to content with Harry's bias much of the time), and a few hints here and there about the time not covered in detail.

The only times Hermione was not with Ron and Harry were the classes she had that they didn't, overnight when she was asleep, and the times she went to the library alone - and it is noted on page that she was not studying in the library during the time she was helping Harry prepare for the third task. Harry felt guilty that helping him cut into Ron and Hermione's study time, but Hermione told him she was fine with it because they were learning so much about DADA.

Again, you're making out like they spent months preparing for the third task when it was one month out of six after the Yule Ball. Second, in every book there are points where Hermione runs up to the boys out of nowhere, usually coming from the library but occasionally other places as well. The trio is even busier fifth year, yet Hermione has the time and ability to talk to all those students in other houses about the D.A., the time to go to the owlry to mail letters home and to Viktor, to write her parents, to talk to Ginny, none of which is accounted for on-page nor noticed by the boys until after the fact.

And I think you're forgetting weekends here. On a nice spring day, why would Harry and Ron accompany Hermione to the library when they could go outside or sleep late or play a game of chess? No, sorry they do not spend every waking minute outside of class together and to suggest that they do is [staff edit]/

Actually, they did know. They knew when Hermione went to the library because she always told them and they knew Krum had been hanging around the library a lot because Hermione complained about the giggling fangirls being a distraction. Ron made a logical deduction based on the facts he knew and Hermione confirmed that he was correct. That wasn't a difficult deduction to make since the only time Hermione was not with Ron and Harry was during the classes they did not have with her, at night while she was asleep, and the times she went to the library without them. Since Krum obviously did not barge into any of Hermione's classes to ask her to the ball and no boy could get into the girls' dormitory, the only place Krum could have asked Hermione was in the library.

You're right, it wasn't a difficult deduction. But they didn't 'know'. She could've bumped into him outside the loo or on the way to dinner or a dozen different places.

While we can't pinpoint the specific day that Krum asked Hermione, we can determine that it was at some point between Ron's troll comment and the night he asked Hermione to go as as last resort - and there were only a few days between those incidents as I recall.

Yes, but again it cannot be pinpointed exactly. So your point about pinpointing the date of any possible kiss or further interaction is moot imo.

The books also show us that Hermione always tells Harry and Ron where she is going if she is not going to be spending time with them. Her time is never unaccounted for. They know her class schedule, they know her habits, and she always tells them when she goes to the library.

Actually the book does a good job of showing us the opposite. There are multiple occasions across multiple books where Hermione runs off without informing the boys of her destination or reasons. In fact, just in GoF we find out that Hermione at some point made a trip down to the kitchens where she discovered Dobby without telling either of the boys about it first.

But you do make a good point: Hermione is a creature of habit and the boys know her routines. After so long, they probably do know that she always spends six hours every Saturday morning in the library or goes to the owlry Tuesday mornings before breakfast or whatever. They probably expect her to follow these patters save when something unusual comes up. Hermione could easily use this advantage, getting up one Saturday and leaving before the boys wake, only instead of going to the library per usual, she goes for a stroll with Viktor before they both go to the library to start on work. Hermione returns to the boys to eat lunch together, Ron might make a comment about homework or studying and Hermione can reply without ever having to lie or sound suspicious in the least.

That's not the entire point though. The point is that, in order for Ginny's claim in HBP to be true, there must be some direct evidence presented on page in GOF that shows Hermione kissed Krum. The reader should be able to go back and pinpoint exactly when and where Hermione and Krum were making out with each other - which, again, is the definition of snogging. Unexplained absences are only one possibility for that. Others would include showing Hermione and Krum on page in a romantic capacity as a couple - Hermione eating meals with him, holding hands, inviting him to Hogsmeade for a date, etc... There must be at least one piece of evidence presented on page in GOF to support Ginny's statement in HBP and that simply does not exist in GOF.

[staff edit]
Let's think: Hermione had 7 birthdays over the course of the series, 6 that occurred at school, five of which happened after the trio became friends. Not once do we hear about any presents the boys might've gotten her. But it is a very safe assumption that they must've given her something based on the fact that Ron and Hermione always get Harry birthday presents and the trio all exchange Christmas presents as well. yet there is nothing the reader can point to about Harry and Ron discussing ideas or shopping for gifts or Hermione using said-gifts or thanking them. Are you going to tell me they didn't buy her presents or maybe that they forgot her birthday six years in a row because there's no evidence to support otherwise?

Hermione told Ron at the Yule Ball that she only wanted to be friends with Krum - that the whole point of the ball was to make friends. She also told Ron after the ball that, if he didn't like her going on a date with someone else, he should ask her out first and not as a last resort - which proves her romantic interest was in Ron because she wouldn't be telling Ron to ask her out on a date if she was romantically interested in Krum, IMO. In OOTP, Hermione states several times that she and Krum are just friends - or pen pals. Hermione put a great deal of effort into convincing Ron and she and Krum were never anything more than friends.

Actually here's what Hermione said:

"This whole tournament's supposed to be about getting to know foreign wizards and making friends with them!" said Hermione hotly.

She never tells Ron she only wants to be friends with Krum. Never, not once in GoF or OotP or anywhere in any book. And here's what she had to say about him in OotP:

'So what if I am?' said Hermione coolly, though her face was a little pink. 'I can have a pen-pal if I--'

She never calls him just her friend or just her penpal. A person can be a romantic interest and a penpal, just as Ron was both a best friend and a romantic interest. One doesn't discount the other. In fact, it's quite clear to me that Hermione did the opposite of convincing Ron he was just a friend. Because that's all she would've had to say if it were the truth. Just say "I don't fancy him and he's just a friend." There, end of story. No, instead she brings up his name but gets upset when Ron is jealous, writes long letters to him in front of Ron's face, practically teasing him with it until she gets a response. She compliments Krum repeatedly in both GoF and OotP while calling Ron names like "most insensitive wart" and "emotional range of a teaspoon" and "thick" and gosh knows how many others besides. No, Hermione was anything but clear to Ron about her feelings for both him and Viktor until after Christmas 5th year where she starts to finally show improvement.

And yes, she was romantically interested in Ron. Okay? Isn't it possible for someone to be interested in more than one person? Didn't Ron continue to try and flirt with Rosemerta in HBP even though he clearly liked Hermione and was also dating Lavender at the time? People are allowed to like more than one person.

Hermione is not a good liar - and Ron in particular always knows when Hermione is lying. She doesn't lie unless she feels it is absolutely necessary - i.e. McGonagall telling her not to tell anyone about the time turner - but she never gets away with it because it's always obvious that she's lying. Hermione didn't lie about having a date for the ball - she was honest and told them she didn't want to say who it was because she thought they would laugh. She wasn't secretive about talking to Krum in the library and freely talked about their conversations and things Krum told her. She was honest about Krum's feelings for her and that he had invited her to visit him over the summer - as well as revealing that she wasn't interested and didn't answer him because she was more worried about Ron and Harry at the time. She was honest about writing letters to Krum - and receiving letters from him in return. Hermione never lied about her friendship with Krum from what we're shown.

Hermione lied to everyone in the D.A. about the parchment they signed and no one suspected a thing until Hermione told the boys about it. She lied to Umbridge and convinced her to follow her into the F. Forest. She lied to Bellatrix under the effects of tortue in Malfoy Manor. I think the girl knows how to lie just fine.

Yes, she has a more difficult time lying to Ron, but again she doesn't have to lie directly to him, at least not as far as we can see. Ron never goes so far as to ask her anything too directly so she gets away with half-truths and partial answers. Or she just ignores him like she does when he wants to know how she answered Krum after the 2nd task or when she returns from saying goodbye to him at the end of GoF.

Maybe you are right. Maybe Hermione was honest about Krum. But unfortunately, Hermione started everything off on the wrong foot by keeping her secrets, by refusing to tell the boys about her date, but not telling them about what Krum said to her until after Rita's article came out, by not telling Ron she'd stayed in touch with Viktor until she accidentally (or imo purposely) let his name slip when discussing the D.A. She tells them things, but only after they're out in the open and she doesn't have a choice. Sorry, but her behavior from the start does not fit someone being completely honest.

It wouldn't be a big deal as far as the story goes and that is the point. There was already gossip going around about Hermione and Krum during GOF - particularly after Rita's article came out. Hermione even got hate mail because the general public assumed the article was true.

It was a big deal to Ron in HBP because he had finally come around to accepting that Hermione was telling him the truth about never being anything more than friends with Krum. It's easy to ignore random gossip from people who didn't really know anything and a vicious tabloid style article that both Hermione and Harry considered laughable. It's much more difficult to ignore your own sister telling you that that the girl you're in love with has lied to you and the gossip was true. That's what upset Ron the most I think - the implication that Hermione had lied to him about never being anything more than friends with Krum.

Glad we agree on something. Finding out about the kiss, while hard, was nothing compared to implication that Hermione had been lying to him for years, imo. But I think that only strengthens my reasoning that if it was mere assumption by Ginny and a failure on Ron's part to try and get Hermione to confirm the truth, there would've been more of an effort in the book to set the story straight. Effectively, it turns Hermione from an equal partner in the mess she and Ron made in HBP to a complete and utter victim.

No, for one thing, that again just makes Hermione look too angelic and flawless imo. JKR never wanted her to appear perfect, and that's exactly what this situation would do. And second, if she was totally innocent, there's no way Hermione would let Ron get away with making such a huge assumption about her that paints her in a bad light.

Actually, Neville knew - he even told Ron that Hermione turned him down because someone else had already asked her and Ron passed that on to Harry. Neville did not tell Ron that it was Krum, but we can't say that he didn't know because they never ask him. I would also include the students that would have been in the library at the time - at least some of them would have known.

There is no evidence of any private meeting between Hermione and Krum at all during the time frame of GOF. They met in the library several times, at the Yule Ball, and by the lake during the second task - all of which were public locations with other people around. And, yes, Krum's fangirls were always following him around - this was confirmed after Rita's article because the fangirls in particular were very angry at the idea of Krum dating Hermione. Harry noted them shooting angry looks at Hermione. In order for Hermione and Krum to have had any private meeting where they could make out, there must be evidence for that on page.

Again, you argue that Hogwarts is this huge gossip mill, and say there must've been witnesses to Krum asking Hermione because they couldn't possible have found ten seconds to be alone. Yet you want me to believe that no one talked about how Viktor Krum asked plain old Hermione Granger to the Yule Ball? There were over two weeks between the Ball's announcement and the Ball itself and at least a week between the time find out Hermione had a date and the actual Ball, yet word never makes it to Gryffindor tower? Ron's only asking Hermione every five minutes who she's going with, yet he's completely oblivious to any rumors going around that she's going with Viktor Krum, who was someone else Ron probably would've paid attention to any rumors circulating.

Rita wasn't interested in writing about the truth or all the exact details. She went for sensationalism - picking and choosing the details that she could twist around for the most dramatic story. Her articles do not reveal everything she knew about Harry - they only reveal what she considered the most sensational details that would make the most dramatic story to sell papers and magazines. She got information from any source she could and used her animagus form to hide herself so she could eavesdrop on people without them being aware of it. She was running out of "brave little orphan Harry chosen as champion" stories and looking for a fresh angle - even trying to get Hagrid to give her dirt she could use.

Again, it was presented on page that Rita targeted Hermione specifically because of their confrontation in Hogsmeade over the article about Hagrid. Rita saw an opportunity to kill two birds with one stone - another tabloid style article featuring Harry with a fresh angle that would turn the public against Hermione at the same time. And it worked - as all the hate mail Hermione received because of that article demonstrates.

Yes, and...?

We don't know that Harry was the only one who ever saw a big dog on Hogwarts grounds. Harry never told anyone that he saw the dog at Hogwarts because he was afraid it was a Grimm. We do know that he was not the only one who ever saw Crookshanks - in particular, Ron saw him and complained about Hermione letting the cat roam around like that.

Yes, exactly. [staff edit] We don't know if anyone else saw Sirius, just as we don't know if anyone ever saw Krum and Hermione walking or together or whatever. Unlike you, I don't believe everyone at Hogwarts is a gossip hound, I don't believe krum had a parade of followers 24/7 who watches his every move, I don't believe Rita glued herself to Hermione's neck for a month straight. So for me, it's very easy to believe that Krum and Hermione found semi-private moments together to talk or hold hands or even kiss. And if someone saw them, unless it was one of Krum's fanclub or a Slytherin, I don't see why they'd run around shooting their mouth off about it.

We also know that Hogwarts is not a place where secrets can be kept. Harry's confrontation with Quirrellmort in the dungeon had no witnesses - not even Ron and Hermione - but the entire school knew what had happened down there within a few days. Nobody was around when Harry stabbed the basilisk with Gryffindor's sword - at least nobody who was conscious - yet people knew about that as well because the portraits told other students about it. The portraits, the ghosts, and Peeves pretty much ensure that there is no real privacy at Hogwarts from what we're shown. Likewise, locations like the library and the Great Hall were not private because there were always other students around.

And we also know the trio are far more inquisitive than the average student and have far more tools at their disposal (Hermione's brain, the cloak and marauder's map) to investigate them. Some secrets do get out. Others, do not. For instance, no one knew Harry could do a Patronus until the first D.A. meeting, no one knew what really happened the night Sirius escaped, no one knew about how all the Champions were cheating (well, some people obviously did, but it wasn't a widely known secret).

And again, we know that Percy and Penelope had a secret relationship that no-one knew about until Ginny spilled the beans. Likewise, Ginny's and Michael's relationship occurs almost completely off-page even though Ron was no doubt very interested in it after Hermione told him they were dating. Yes, Krum was more high-profile than either of them, but I'm not suggesting he and Hermione were 'dating' or meeting every day or anything as serious as Percy and Penny. A half hour every week is nothing, really. We know Harry found that much time repeatedly to do things that went unnoticed by Rita or teachers or the ghosts and portraits. So I have no trouble believing Hermione and Krum could've done so as well.

Actually, Hermione does spend all of her free time with Ron and Harry in GOF. To be clear, by free time, I mean the times that were not spent in class or studying in the library. The free periods they had, meal times, weekends, Hogsmeade weekends, etc... The only times that Hermione was not with Harry and Ron were the classes she had that they did not, the times she went to the library to study and they didn't - which actually wasn't very often because Harry and Ron preferred to study with Hermione so she would help them with their work - and when she was asleep in her dorm. Also, during the time that Harry and Ron were fighting, Hermione was dividing her time between them - thought she spend most of her free time during that time period helping Harry learn the summoning charm.

Actually, this is all conjecture. Unless you can point to someplace in the book that effectively says "Hermione spends all of her free time with Ron and Harry"? I won't even be picky. It doesn't even have to be in GoF. If you can find a line or passage that confirms that statement, then I'll be convinced that it was impossible for Hermione to ever meet with Krum outside of the three meetings we know are canon.

Because I don't believe it. The books almost never cover an entire weekend day in full unless it's a Hogsmeade visit or Quidditch match. There's no sort of confirmed weekend routine with the trio where we know how they spend their days off. It seems to change every time to reflect surrounding events. So to assume that that they spend 16 hours straight with one another every Saturday and Sunday is just that: an assumption.

The text says they never did anything like that because there's no evidence in the text that would even suggest it. They spent time together in the library, but that was the extent of it. As far as the text shows, Hermione was never alone with Krum - they were always in places where other people were around.

Likewise, the corridors at Hogwarts are not private places either - as was clearly demonstrated by Harry and Ron walking up on Ginny kissing Dean in HBP.

[staff edit]
Because there's no line that says "And then Harry saw Krum kiss Hermione" or "'Yes, Harry,' said Hermione, looking abashed, 'I kissed Viktor'" does not prove that a kiss did not take place.

And Harry's adventures were also well known and talked about - as we see in OOTP when various students start listing off the things he had done over the years and explaining how they found out about them even though nobody else was around to witness most of those things. Every time Harry sneaked out, the Fat Lady knew about it - and she would have told her friend, Vi, who would have told other portraits, who would have said something to other students - and so on and so forth.

A lot more assumptions here. But let's say you're right. Let's say that many of Harry's adventures WERE known to other students and portraits and ghosts, etc. Obviously not everyone knows everything, otherwise there wouldn't have been a need for the D.A. to recount some of the stories they'd heard in the Hog's Head. And the trio (or at least Harry) seemed unaware they were talked about.

So then why isn't it possible for people to have seen Hermione and Krum together and gossiped about it? Just as with the stories about Harry, it wouldn't mean the entire school had to know. A quidditch player kissing a girl is juicy gossip I'm sure, but hardly more interesting than fighting off a hundred dementors or killing a basilisk.

Again, there must be direct evidence on page to demonstrate Hermione ever doing something like that - either witnessed by Harry or Hermione telling Harry about it - in order for that to be true. If there is no barking, there is no dog. As I said before, the lack of evidence doesn't prove anything - it only makes it more unlikely.

No, there must be direct evidence to prove that it is indeed true. It can still be true without such concrete evidence.

[staff edit]

Considering what we see of Hermione and Ginny, I would say that Neville is far more likely because Hermione would never confide anything personal to Ginny from what we're shown. She and Ginny didn't spend any time together at school in GOF. They were in different years so they had different schedules and were in different dorms since the students were divided up by year as well as by house.

And yet, they share a room for three summers in a row, and at Christmas, seem to get along just fine since they hang out while the boys played quidditch in GoF and were seen listening to Mrs. Weasley's stories in PoA. They were good enough friends that Hermione felt comfortable offering romantic advice (and no, Hermione offering romantic advice is not the same as her offers to help with school) and Ginny felt comfortable taking it and confiding in her about Michael.

What evidence is there that Hermione and Neville are even on that level of friendship?

However, I actually think the most likely scenario there would be Ginny being in the library at the time where she could see them and/or overhear what they were saying. We know other students would have witnessed it because it happened in the library where other students would have been present so it's very possible Ginny did as well. The gossip not reaching Ron prior to the ball doesn't change the fact that other students would have been in the library to witness that. The library was a public place after all.

No, we don't 'know' anything because we don't see the scene through Harry's eyes and Hermione's account of it is brief and nonspecific. Krum had been going there for weeks trying to work up the courage to talk to her. I find it incredibly likely that he would've found it much easier to approach Hermione when there wasn't an audience present.

People saw Krum ask Hermione and gossip about it, but Harry and Ron don't hear a word of it? Okay, I can accept that. But then if they are ever seen together in the future, Harry, Ron or Rita would've heard about it for sure? Why? Why is the gossip about Krum taking her to the ball kept on the down low, but gossip about a kiss would be sure to reach the ears of every man, woman and child in England?

I think that is unlikely simply because Hermione and Ginny were never shown to be that close. Hermione would never have said anything to Ginny about Krum because that would involve discussing her feelings about Ron as well. Hermione's romantic interest was always in Ron and that was the entire reason why she was never interested in Krum beyond being friends. She wanted Ron to ask her to the ball and only accepted Krum's invitation because of Ron's troll comment from what we're shown. Immediately after the ball, she directly told Ron he should ask her out on a date. Any discussion about Krum would have to involve Hermione explaining why she was not interested in Krum - which also means Ginny never would have made the assumption about them snogging because she would have known the whole story from the start.

Why? Why would discussing Krum require her to discuss her feelings for Ron? And again why can't she have feelings for Viktor? Why do her feelings for Ron mean that he is the only male she can ever think about as more than just a friend when no other real person or fictional character is bound by that same restriction?

[staff edit]

It's within the scope of their relationship for Ginny to ask Hermione questions and talk about herself a lot as well as for Hermione to give Ginny advice. That is consistent with Ginny's characterization - as well as her early crush on Harry and knowing that Hermione was one of Harry's best friends. However, we have no evidence that would support the reverse being true - and quite a bit of evidence that demonstrates the opposite because Ginny never knew anything significant about Hermione from what we're shown.

Regardless of what Hermione may or may not have said to Ginny in GOF, if they had been close friends in any capacity, Hermione would have turned to Ginny for comfort when she was so hurt and angry in HBP. Yet Ginny didn't even know Ron and Hermione were fighting during that time and was never seen even speaking to her during that time - let alone trying to comfort her. Ironically, it was Luna who noticed Hermione was upset - and knew it was because of Ron - and tried to comfort Hermione. Likewise, Hermione never knew about Ron and Ginny's argument so it does not appear that she and Ginny were talking to each other at all at that time.

[staff edit] I don't see why it would be consistent with Ginny's characterization for her to "talk about herself a lot", especially at the time of GoF where we only saw the faintest cracks in Ginny's until-then very introverted shell. Where else in the books does Ginny talk about herself a lot so that I can see how it is consistent with her character.

[staff edit]

Relationships change. In GoF Ginny is a nobody, nothing special. By HBP she is one of the most popular and pretty girls at Hogwarts, is on her second boyfriend and is on the Quidditch team and already helped win a Quidditch Cup by stepping in for the banned Harry Potter. Plus she probably got more attention from fighting at the Ministry. Hermione meanwhile was being more proactive in her pursuit of Ron. Ginny and Hermione would not treat each other the same way in HBP as they might've in GoF. And relationships aren't always necessarily one-way. Their friendship might've peaked in early OotP shortly after they left Grimmauld Place where they spent the longest, most concentrated amount of time together in the series. Back at school, Hermione was busy with prefect duties and S.P.E.W. and preparing for owls and Ginny had a boyfriend and quidditch soon thereafter. It is not hard to believe that the girls were friends and friendly, but not so close that they didn't let themselves drift away from one-another as circumstances arose.

Also, Hermione did not seek comfort with anyone. For the most part, she put up a front and just ignored Ron, something that most people were probably used to-Ginny included. Harry sees her breakdown because he is her best friend (or second after Ron) and Luna just happens to be in the loo when Hermione runs in, so yes she witnesses it as well. IMO, Ginny had no reason to intervene with Hermione in HBP unless she realized it was her comment that started everything (which she might not've since the big blowout didn't happen until after the quidditch match/lavender which was a good week after the Ginny/Ron altercation), and Hermione wasn't the type to seek comfort from anyone, until the end of HBP when Ron stepped up to the plate.

Harry and Hermione knew it was poppycock because it was written about them. They had to tell Ron it was poppycock. Harry also had to tell Molly it wasn't true. Ginny wouldn't have confronted Hermione about it at that time - she wasn't dating Harry nor was she part of their inner circle at that time.

Actually, they didn't have to tell Ron. Ron was surprised to find out that any of Rita's article was true until Hermione told him that she got the part about Krum correct. You're right that Harry did have to tell Molly, but Ginny is not Molly and has far more chances to observe the trio than Molly does.

To be clear, I'm sure Ginny did not believe that Harry and Hermione were dating or that Hermione was stringing both boys along. That wasn't what I meant. It's more likely that Ginny would have assumed that Hermione and Krum were dating and Rita made up the love triangle so she could feature Harry in the article as well. We have to remember that Rita did use some truth in her articles - she twisted facts around for sensationalism, but she did use true facts along with the lies. Hermione did go to the Yule Ball with Krum. Krum did have feelings for Hermione and had told her that he had never felt that way about another girl before. Krum did invite Hermione to visit him in Bulgaria that summer. People were gossiping about Hermione and Krum before the article came out so Ginny would have seen the article as confirmation that Hermione was dating Krum, IMO.

But why? Why would Ginny accept half the article as an assumption and believe the second? That's illogical for any person (even though it turned out to be exactly the truth). And no, there was no gossip going around about Hermione and Krum, at least not mentioned on-page. I find it a huge assumption that Ginny would just assume Rita Skeeter, someone she had to know had lied repeatedly before (remember, the Weasleys badmouthed Skeeter over the summer before 4th year, even though Molly believed the article anyway when it was about Harry). Ginny is a pretty insightful character actually (or at least she isn't particularly gullible). Even if she believed what Skeeter said about Hermione and Krum, I think she'd want evidence for herself to confirm it.

Ginny would have known all along that Harry and Hermione were not dating. She saw them together at the Burrow and in the common room after all and their behavior towards each other was never romantic at all. Ginny never had any insecurities about Harry being friends with Hermione. It was quite the opposite from what we're shown - it appears Ginny saw Hermione as a good source of information about Harry because they were friends. It was Cho who was insecure and jealous about Hermione - but that was in OOTP.

I could see Ginny asking Hermione about Krum - particularly after the article - but as I said above, I think Hermione would refuse to answer her questions or give vague answers to avoid lying because she wasn't good at lying.

But why? Why would Hermione refuse to answer Ginny's questions if nothing was going on with Krum? I can maybe understand her embarrassment and reluctance around Ron, at least in GoF, to talk about Krum. But why NOT talk to Ginny if she asked? She wouldn't even have to involve her feelings about Ron to answer in the negative about Viktor.

That leads right back into Hermione's suspicious behavior whenever Krum is involved from the get go. If nothing happened, why not just say "Nothing Happened"? If she doesn't fancy him, why not say "I don't fancy him"? Why all the vague replies or the changing of topics or refusals to answer?

No, one thing I know: when there's smoke, there's usually fire.

I wouldn't say it has to be spelled out specifically on page - after all, there is a lot of textual evidence regarding events that occurred off page. For example, we know that Hermione spent time alone with Ron in the hospital wing after he was poisoned because Ron mentioned it to Harry. We also know that Ginny and Hermione came to see Harry while he was unconscious after he was hit in the head with a bludger because Ron told him about it. We know that Ron and Harry didn't speak to each other during their detention with Snape in GOF because Harry's thoughts reveal that - the detention itself occurred off page. A lot of things happen off page that Harry is told about after the fact - or overhears something about after the fact.

My point is that there must be some type of textual evidence to support Ginny's claim. We can't just assume something happened off page without any textual evidence to support that. For example, Jo could easily have shown Hermione coming in late for one of the trio's practice sessions and telling them she had been taking a walk with Krum. The event itself would have occurred off page, but we would have textual evidence to support the two of them spending time together outside of the library - apart from their one date at the Yule Ball and the brief time by the lake after the second task where they were surrounded by other people. Jo could also have added little details to that scene that would indicate they did more than walk - Hermione's hair being disheveled, her robes being rumpled, blushing when she mentioned the walk - which would isolate her reaction to Krum rather than connecting it to Ron the way her blush about his invitation was connected to Ron asking her about it.

Likewise, she could have had Parvatti and/or Lavender come over and ask Hermione questions because they had seen her leave the library with Krum. She could have them ask Harry questions because Hermione wouldn't tell them anything - similar to having Lavender ask Harry why Ron didn't take Hermione to the Yule Ball. She could have had Harry see Hermione and Krum together in what he thought was an intimate moment and steer Ron away so he wouldn't see them. There are a lot of ways Jo could have put textual evidence in GOF that would support the claim that Hermione and Krum were making out at some point during that book, but she chose not to do so and I think that is significant.

There is textual evidence to support Ginny's claim. I have been providing it since we started on this line of discussion. I have no absolute proof to give you, but I have given plenty of textual evidence to support the possibility. More than you have against the claim since many of your paraphrase-ings of the text have been inaccurate and misconstrued.

Yes, Jo could've easily shown Hermione coming in late. The thing is, she wanted it to be a shock, not only to Ron but to the reader when she revealed it in HBP. Even if Harry and Ron didn't notice Hermione's peculiar behavior, a good reader would've. It simply wasn't her intention to foreshadow that a kiss or a relationship was taking place. That is the significance.

Asking Harry directly about the kiss and the date was not a violation of his privacy - he could have refused to tell her about those things after all. It's not like Hermione followed him around to spy on him or learned Legillimency so she could get information out of him without his consent. Harry chose to answer her on both occasions. Telling someone else what Harry told her in confidence would be a violation of his privacy because he never consented to that.

It wasn't a violation of privacy, but it wasn't respectful either. It was Hermione, having a question and wanting to know the answer. Typical behavior. Harry in fact tells us he was planning to keep it to himself and wouldn't have said anything had Hermione not questioned him. The respectful thing would be to wait and let Harry bring it up on his own if he wanted. Hermione asking the question put Harry in the position of either revealing information a few seconds ago he'd decided to keep to himself or lying directly to his friends.

This isn't a bad thing Hermione does, mind you. It's typical friend behavior. I'm just saying that it in no way respects Harry's privacy.

From what we're shown, it wasn't a secret that Ginny was dating Michael Corner - other people knew about it after all. Ginny wasn't hiding the relationship. Ron hadn't noticed anything because they weren't spending time with Ginny at that point - not at Hogwarts. Ginny chose not to say anything to her brothers directly because they were all very overprotective of her, but there's no indication that she was ever trying to keep that a secret or that she told Hermione that in confidence. She certainly had no problem in announcing that she was going to go talk to Michael in front of Ron and the twins after Umbridge's decree disbanding all groups. That was a very different situation from Harry's kiss with Cho, IMO.

A different situation yes, but nevertheless Hermione herself tells us Ginny didn't tell Ron on-purpose, but Hermione tells him anyway. I don't know why Ginny doesn't care later on. Maybe Ron said something to her off-page and she got over it, maybe Hermione told her she told Ron and Ginny just accepted it. Whatever the reason and whatever the reaction, it is a fact (if we believe Hermione's word) that she purposely told Ron something Ginny did not want Ron to know at the time.

I do agree that Hermione oversimplified things and she didn't have all the facts to draw a more accurate conclusion from because she didn't witness the argument or hear what they said to each other - and telling Harry that certainly did make the situation worse, IMO. However, Hermione was only speculating and sharing her conclusions with Harry. That didn't violate Ron's privacy because it was not something Ron told her in confidence.

We don't know what Ron did or didn't tell her. We are not privy to any sort of discussion they had after Harry's name came out of the Goblet and he joined the other champions or what they discussed before hermione met up with Harry the next morning. It makes sense that Hermione inferred it, but she may have inferred it based on other things Ron told her in confidence which, imo, is a violation of privacy, if a minor one. The same can be said of how Hermione tells Harry that Ron misses him. This is a very big difference from how Harry treats similar situations. With Hermione, she discusses her friends feelings with each other in the hopes it gets them to reconcile. With Harry, he keeps his mouth shut even when he has a good understanding of the problem between Ron and Hermione. Neither handling of the similar situations is good or bad, but it is very obvious which one is more respectful of people's privacy.

Because it wasn't significant to the overall story. That was something that was resolved between Ron and Hermione in private. That wasn't something Harry would have felt comfortable discussing with Hermione - as evidenced by his thoughts about it in HBP. He wasn't even comfortable discussing it with Ron and tried to avoid discussing it - which was part of why he spent so much time sitting in silence while they ranted. Nor was it something Hermione would have even considered discussing with Harry - particularly when she didn't know about Ginny saying that to Ron. After it was resolved, I can't see either of them dragging it all out again for Harry's benefit because his only concern was that things were okay between them. Harry didn't need to know all the details - or really want to. It didn't matter to him how they resolved it - just that they did.

Initially, I thought that it would be significant - I expected that issue to come up again in DH with Hermione finding out about what Ginny said and confronting her about it. However, in hindsight, there really wasn't a plausible way for that to happen because it was such a private thing - and was most likely resolved during Hermione's off page visits to Ron in the hospital wing in HBP. There is a distinct difference in their behavior and interaction with each other after that so we know that they resolved some of those issues at that time. There's no evidence as to whether or not Hermione ever confronted Ginny about it, but their relationship wasn't significant to the story at all so that's not really an issue that needed to be resolved on page. Ron may have decided not to tell Hermione who told him that to prevent any more arguing - or Hermione might have confronted Ginny about it in private and that played a part in Ginny being so irritated with her after the Sectumsempra incident. We can only speculate, but it's not really important. What matters is that we can see the issue was resolved between Ron and Hermione.

It's significant to possible the biggest subplot of the series: Ron's and Hermione's relationship. I agree that it could've and probably was resolved in private. But don't you think if Hermione learned Ginny had lied and Ron had believed her and as a result she spent 6 months of 6th year in misery, we would probably see it affect Hermione and her temperament through Harry's eyes at some point? Why couldn't Jo write a scene where Harry notices Hermione being frostier than usual to Ron since their reconciliation while Ron was even more humble in her presence? Or where Ginny marches up to Quidditch practice looking upset and mentions something about Hermione having a go at her? Or what about when Ginny digs into Hermione about the HBP book/Quidditch after Harry hurt Daco? Knowing Hermione's character that would've been the perfect chance to shove something like that assumption back in Ginny's face. No, surely such a big lie/assumption and the effects it caused would've come into play in some way once the story was set straight in private.

Because the reader knows more information than either Ginny or Harry due to the objective, third person narrator. Harry didn't know Hermione very well at all - as demonstrated by his assumption that Hermione would be attracted to Krum simply because he was a famous Quidditch player. The reader knows that Hermione didn't care about that at all - Harry did not from what we're shown. Ginny knew even less about Hermione than Harry did. Hermione had to share a room with Ginny at the Burrow and Grimmauld Place because they were the only girls, but she spent the majority of her time with Harry and Ron. Ginny was the outsider at that time - they didn't include her. That begins to change in OOTP, but they still limit what they say in front of Ginny and stick to the stuff they learn about the Order and the fight against Voldemort for the most part.

I agree that Ron knew Hermione best and he should have known she would never have lied to him that way - particularly since he was always the one who could tell when she was lying. At the very least, Ron should have tried to talk to Hermione about it so she could give her side of the story instead of giving her the cold shoulder that week. However, Ron was also extremely insecure and he let his fears get the best of him. He couldn't be objective about it because of his feelings and his fears were primarily rooted in his doubts about himself. He couldn't see any reason why Hermione would ever be attracted to him and felt she should be attracted to someone like Krum - or Harry - because he considered both of them to be superior to him. They were both famous, they both had money, they had both been chosen as champions, they were both really good at Quidditch - and so on. Ron was projecting his own doubts about himself. Realizing that he was completely wrong about all of that was part of Ron's journey and the largest part of that was realizing and accepting his own self worth. He couldn't see how wrong he was about Hermione until he was able to see how wrong he was about himself.

First, I think Harry's comment about hermione liking Krum was meant to illustrate his cluelessness about girls in general than anything about his understanding of Hermione in particular. After all, we know Harry already suspects she likes Ron at this point who is not a famous quidditch player. No, it's more likely it's general cluelessness, or a shrewd attempt to point out the obvious because he simply doesn't want to really think about why Hermione fancies anyone.

Actually sixth year we know from Harry that he spent a ton of time with Ginny, which means either they split into groups of two, or Hermione hung out with Ginny as well. And before fourth year, Hermione and Ginny were together without the boys more than the trio was alone together.

Or maybe, because Ron does know Hermione best, he could reflect and look back and realize just how suspicious her behavior really was? It just doesn't make sense to use the argument that Ginny and Harry don't know Hermione so they believe the assumption, but Ron does know Hermione but also believes it. That's backward logic imo.

I know your views on the Harry/Hermione friendship, but I think you are taking it a bit far and painting Harry in an incredibly bad light. Even if Harry doesn't understand Hermione as a person, he knows her better than anyone save Ron-and that includes her parents. Ron I can give a pass because like you said his insecurities and such would cloud his thinking, but it's pretty pathetic if Hermione's second best friend in all the world didn't know her at all. Whatever your beliefs, I find it very difficult to believe that was JKR's intention.

Honestly, I don't think Ginny was intentionally trying to hurt Ron. I think she just wanted to make the point that kissing was no big deal and totally missed the point Ron was trying to make about it being a public location. Likewise, Ginny was already operating under a huge misconception with her assumption that it was Ron who told the twins about her dating Dean - which she had snapped at him about when they went to the joke shop and the twins interrogated her. Ron hadn't even seen the twins prior to that day so they found out some other way, but Ginny blamed him for that anyway and had been angry with him over it for a while. Ginny was making a lot of assumptions in that situation - assuming that her brothers didn't want her to kiss anyone at all was one of them.

Overall, I think Ginny was just rebelling against what she saw as her family trying to keep her in the "baby sister" mold forever. She wanted to prove she was grown up, but she wasn't really mature enough to pull it off because, every time she tried to prove that, she made very immature choices. I do think that Ginny's behavior in HBP is realistic - she was 15 and that really is a very difficult and awkward age because, as much as you want to believe you're grown up and think you have all the answers, you're not quite there yet.

I might agree if we didn't see Ginny pranking Ron earlier in HBP, making fun of him when he snogs Lavender or again on the Quidditch pitch on multiple occasions. The stuff about kissing Muriel's picture was not to make a point about how kissing wasn't a big deal but to make Ron feel small (which she had every right to, considering Ron had just tried calling her a b****)

I don't know if her assumption about Ron was inaccurate. Ron may not've seen the twins, but he very well could've written to them. And he doesn't deny either of Ginny's comments blaming him for telling.

Otherwise, I agree with you about Ginny's behavior. Very fitting for an average 15 year-old girl.

I agree that Ron needed to realize that girls could find him attractive - there is a similarity between Ron and Hermione there in that they were both very insecure and they each had doubts about the other returning their feelings because of their own doubts about themselves. However, Ron also needed to learn that there was more to being in a romantic relationship than just making out all the time and that was the bigger issue with his relationship with Lavender because he had always demonstrated a somewhat shallow view of dating and relationships in that regard.

Hermione didn't need that - she already knew what she wanted in a relationship. Romantic experience is not limited to actually being in a relationship with someone and/or having physical interaction like kissing. Being actively courted - even when you don't return those feelings - is also romantic experience because there are lessons to be learned there. Hermione realizing that guys could find her attractive was only part of her journey, but it was an important first step.

Also - because I forgot to mention it before - the quote you mentioned where Jo talked about Harry and Hermione getting action wasn't quite accurate. What Jo actually said was that Ron thought Hermione had gotten some action. Accio Quote is not loading so I can't look up the interview for the exact quote, but this has come up before and Jo's comment was framed around Ron's perception of those events rather than what actually happened. And after Ginny dropped that bombshell, that is what Ron thought and that influenced his later decisions.

But before Lavender, I don't think Ron saw relationships as just "someone to make out with all the time". Yes, we see him interested in the physical side of things with Fleur and Rosemerta, but Hermione was gaga over Lockhart's looks and looks were the start of Harry's crush on Cho. I'm sure Ron did learn the lesson that relationship cannot just be snogging, but I don't think that was the lesson he needed to learn.

Mostly I think they both needed the same thing: confidence and a sense of self-worth. And I don't see Ron's view on relationships as shallow in the least. He gets to go to the ball with Padma, the prettiest girl in the year and doesn't give her one second of attention. Actually one thing I find funny is how everyone (not you, just most people in general) assume Lavender is some sexy, sultry seductress that Ron was drooling over for her looks. When in reality, she was probably the least attractive girl in their year in Gryffindor. We already know Paravati's the best looking from Dean, and Hermione is confident enough in her looks to assume she can get both Cormac and Zacharias Smith to go out with her. I think the thing that attracted Ron to Lavender was merely the attention she showed him, the praise she gave him compared to Hermione's constant belittling insults. Of course, they weren't very compatible so instead of annoy/bore each other by talking, they just snogged.

And I agree that romance doesn't have to equal kissing, but I don't think being pursued by someone you are not interested in counts either. That's not romance, that's an inconvenience, one that caused Hermione a lot of trouble in the long run. Hermione doesn't have to do any pursuing of her own, but she has to at least be somewhat receptive for it to count imo.

Thank you for pointing out the quote. I'll take a look back at it at some point.

Actually, Jo has confirmed that Ron was never emotionally involved with Lavender. Ron made that choice because he wanted to prove a point to both Ginny and Hermione. Ginny because she made fun of him for not kissing anyone and Hermione because he thought she had lied to him and wanted her to see that someone else wanted to kiss him too. He chose Lavender because she had been flirting with him and that was a boost to his wounded ego. That's why the shine wore off so quickly and he began avoiding Lavender whenever possible - and that was part of his lesson in realizing that there was a lot more to being in a relationship than making out all the time.

It's not about what Hermione could do - it's about what she did do and what is presented in the text. Jo could have done a lot of things with that scenario - as I said before. Instead, she chose to show on page that Hermione only wanted to be friends with Krum so the evidence presented in GOF is contradictory to Ginny's claim in HBP that they were making out. And not being romantically attracted to Krum certainly does not mean that Hermione did not like him. Obviously she liked him - she thought he was a nice guy and wanted to be friends with him. She wouldn't have wanted to be friends with him if she didn't like him.

As Jo said, these relationships were not really about physical experience. They were about emotional growth - and Ron needed more emotional development so his experience was more extensive than Harry's or Hermione's because of that. Hermione's journey wasn't entirely about realizing that another guy could find her attractive, but that was the primary concern in GOF - that's where we first discover Hermione's vanity and that she doesn't see herself as pretty. That was the significance of her experience with Krum.

I agree that there were other issues that Hermione had to deal with, but those were also specific to her relationship with Ron and she had to deal with those things with Ron. Ron had to work through those issues as well - their mutual insecurities, problems with communication, and neither of them being willing to take the risk of admitting their feelings without being 100% certain that they were reciprocated. Ron and Hermione had to complete that part of their journey with each other.

Could I get a quote or evidence or something about when and what JKR said? I can't remember reading something like that.

And I wholeheartedly disagree. In GoF I see Hermione enjoying the attention, the romantic attention, she is getting from Krum. It's still holding Hermione to a different standard if every other character jumped at the chance for romance (physical or emotional) except Hermione, that at fourteen she was already committed to the love of her life and the man she would marry that she had nothing to learn from being involved with Krum romantically or that she felt absolutely nothing but friendship for anyone ever save Ron. Not saying that isn't possible for people in general, but based on how immature Hermione was emotionally speaking, I don't find it very likely in her case.

And while I do remember JKR talking about how Ron needed more growth than the other two, I just don't accept that. I think that's Jo dumbing down her character for whatever reason. The locket shows that Ron is anything but shallow emotionally speaking and it's very easy to see the threads of it rooted throughout HBP.

Also, it doesn't make much sense to bring up the notion that Hermione considers herself physically unattractive and then solve that problem all in the same book and have that be her only obstacle to romance in general. Both Harry and Ron are given far more complications than just that.

Jo never said that Hermione actually got any action either - only that Ron thought she had. Still, any romantic interaction counts in that regard. That's just how romance works. The invitation was very intimate because Krum was from another country and he was asking Hermione to leave her home to be with him. Even Krum asking Hermione to the Yule Ball would count as action in that respect.

It's not romantic if Hermione doesn't feel anything but friendship for him. Neville inviting Hermione to the ball would not count as romantic because she didn't have any feelings for him. Going to the party with Cormac wouldn't count as romantic because she had no feelings for him. For Hermione to experience romance, she must FEEL romantic feelings. And Jo tells us Hermione got her experience with Krum.

Attraction can be an immediate response. Harry was immediately attracted to Cho without ever having spent any time with her - or even speaking to her. He fantasized about her in GOF long before he ever got up the courage to actually talk to her. Attraction is not about connections - and that's where that ends because Hermione didn't feel any romantic attraction or connection to Krum. Krum was attracted to Hermione long before he spoke to her.

And attraction does not equal deep feelings. They can go hand in hand, but they don't have to. Harry no doubt was still physically attracted to Cho at the end of OotP but couldn't feel anything for her emotionally.

Just because Krum was attracted to Hermione physically (imo, a relatively moot point in his pursuit of her anyway), doesn't mean he's going to feel more deeply about her than any other girl he's ever met. Feelings don't work that way, otherwise half of all men would be in love with supermodels instead of their wives

It's not uncommon for people to want something even more simply because they can't have it. I wouldn't go so far as to say Krum wanted Hermione because she had no feelings. I think it was more about the challenge actually. She was different from all those other girls because she didn't throw herself at him and wasn't impressed by his fame at all. He actually had to put some effort into getting her attention. I think Krum did believe that Hermione could return his feelings and that's why he thought Harry was the reason she didn't after Rita's article came out. To hear Krum tell it, the only thing he and Hermione did when they were together was talk - about Harry.

I agree. I can totally understand if Krum pursued Hermione because she said "no" or because he enjoyed the thrill of the chase. What those things don't correlate to is genuine feelings. Because what you describe very often goes away as quickly as it appears: it's fleeting, it's shallow, it's not something that prompts the sort of language Krum uses at the 2nd task or a long-term, long-distance friendship. Even if he pursued her all year just for the thrill of the chase, that doesn't mesh with writing letters back and forth for a minimum of 6 months after they part.

And Krum didn't imply all they did was talk about Harry. He didn't even mention his own side of those conversations. And we already know Hermione talked to Krum about more than Harry as we overheard their conversation at dinner. And we know they did more than talk because we saw them dance at the Ball.

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No assumption is necessary because all of that is explained on page. Hermione tells them about seeing Krum in the library. She does tell them when she's going to the library - or they were with her. And Hermione showed herself capable of refusing to answer questions, but not lying - Ron could always tell when Hermione was lying. She told them that she had a date admitted that she didn't want to say who it was because she thought they would laugh at her. And she knew they would find out at the Ball anyway so it was a moot point.

1) That Hermione was completely forthcoming in disclosing every encounter she and Krum had to the boys when doing so was unnecessary. 2) That she always tells the boys where she's going when they don't accompany her (I already proved this one wrong with the kitchen situation) 3a) That Ron can always tell when Hermione is lying and 3b) Therefore Hermione never lies to Ron 4) That Hermione really thought the would laugh at her (pretty unlikely considering neither boy even comes close to laughing at the Ball). 5) That not revealing the identity of her date was the only time she withheld info (also proved wrong since she didn't tell them about the invite to Bulgaria and probably wouldn't have had the article not come out).

None of these things are "explained on page" anywhere I can see. I understand how someone could come to these conclusions, but none of them are definitely, and some are outright false and disproven in the text.

The point being that Harry and Ron always knew where Hermione was because she always told them - even in POA when she was dodging explanations she told them about going to those classes that were scheduled for the same times. She just refused to explain how she was doing it.

And my point is that Hermione doesn't always tell them. Most of the time is not always. Besides her visit to the house-elves in the kitchens, I also distinctly recall Hermione showing up and Ron asking her where she's been, to which she replies "the library" in either books 1 or 2. And I'm sure if I really thought about it or looked through them, I could find more.

Either way, my point stands.

Not necessarily. Force doesn't always involve violence after all and I doubt Hermione wanted to cause a scene. She was embarrassed enough as it was I think. Catching her by surprise would still be force because Hermione neither wanted to invited him to kiss her and it's obvious there was a struggle because Harry notes that Hermione looks like she fought her way out of Devil's Snare.

From the way Hermione describes it, it appears that McLaggen maneuvered her under the mistletoe and tried to kiss her with Hermione struggling to get away from him - which is why she was so disheveled when Harry saw her. McLaggen was very conceited and probably thought she was just playing hard to get. Regardless, Hermione did say she escaped and I think that is enough to know that he did not succeed in forcing an unwanted kiss on her.

Different opinions. My vision of the scene is the same, only that it would be far harder for Hermione to physically struggle against Cormac without causing a scene. That would be very noticeable if she had to shove him away or fight to break free. Rather, I imagine she was ruffled from Cormac's gropings but got away from him by making some excuse or other. Regardless, the situation is inconclusive at best.

Actually that was important because Harry's relationship with Sirius had changed by then and knowing the Firebolt did come from Sirius and was a gift sent out of love was important to Harry. Jo mirrors this moment in DH with Harry finding out that Sirius was the one who gave him first broom when he was a year old as well. That's important to Harry's relationship with Sirius and his grief over losing him after such a brief time.

You see, this is relevant, but not important imo. It adds a bit to the story and characters, but doesn't change anything. And while the parallel in DH is indeed very sweet, it's also unimportant and leaves no lasting impact on Harry or the story.

Don't get me wrong, I am glad we have these details included as they enrich the story, but they add far less to the story and characters than the revelation that Ginny made a wrong assumption would. The R/Hr subplot was still very much in full swing and very important to future events in DH (like Ron leaving), whereas by the time he finds the letter, Harry's motivators of Sirius and James both take a backseat to Lily and Dumbledore. In fact, the letter isn't so much important to Harry/Sirius as it to to later demonstrate Snape's devotion to Lily.

Actually, just typing that a thought struck me about another reason it doesn't make sense to me for R/Hr to clear up the kiss matter privately and have Ron learn such a kiss never took place; the entire locket scene as well as it's effect on Ron would've ben diminished greatly. I know it was about H/Hr mostly, but the overall message was that Ron wasn't good enough for Hermione. But to learn that she had never kissed Krum, had never truly liked Krum I think makes it far less believable for Ron to still be so insecure about Hermione's feelings for him.

Not really. That was a private matter between Ron and Hermione and we didn't get to see how all of those private issues were resolved because that happens off page and neither Ron nor Hermione ever discuss such things with Harry. The same is true for Ron choosing to start dating Lavender after he had accepted Hermione's invitation to Slughorn's part - we know they discussed this and resolved it because their behavior towards each other - as well as Hermione's attitude towards Lavender - changes significantly after Ron is poisoned. How they resolved it and what they said to each other was never revealed on page because it was a private moment and neither of them discussed it with Harry.

That's the limitation of third person limited omniscient. Presenting the story from Harry's POV limits what can be revealed regarding secondary characters like Ron and Hermione. We don't get their thoughts at all and if Harry is not there to witness it, we don't know what they're saying or doing unless they actually tell Harry about it. Or someone else does. Harry has to see it or hear about it in order for the reader to know what happened.

Except this is the first real time a serious fight between Ron and Hermione is cleared up off-page. We see the muttered 'thanks' after the troll incident first year, we see the teary hug from Hermione after Ron's declaration to help with Buckbeak third year, we see their unspoken agreement not to discuss the events of the Yule Ball. Obviously we're not privy to every moment or make-up between them, but HBP is the first time a fight of this magnitude is resolved off-page

[staff edit]

My point was that events that happen off-page have effects we can see on-page. After Harry goes off on R/Hr for fighting in OotP, we don't see them make up. But when Ron rejoins Harry, we see him support Hermione and continue to do so throughout most of the book-a stark contrast to his and Harry's opinions usually in-sync and in opposition to Hermione's. We don't see the bulk of Harry's and Ginny's relationship, but we see the effects of their time together in the few, short scenes we get of them sitting together joking about gossip and tattoos.

I'm just saying, don't you think Hermione would have a reaction to finding out how the mess started with a fabrication? And don't you think Harry would notice some change in her demeanor as a result: Hermione, who never lets things go, who always has to be right, who has trouble controlling her emotions? I'm just trying to be realistic here. If Hermione found out that Ginny made that assumption and blabbed to Ron, we would see some sort of evidence somewhere in the story. Since we don't, I can only conclude that either Ron and Hermione never discussed it (hard to believe from a realistic perspective, but in-line with the way JKR portrays their relationship much of the time) or they discussed it, Hermione didn't deny kissing Krum and Ron let the matter drop.

Likewise, that would only be significant to the characters if Ginny was right about her assumption because that would mean that Hermione intentionally lied to Ron every time she told him that she and Krum were never anything more than friends when they were actually carrying on a secret romantic relationship that they hid from everyone. That would be a very negative aspect to add to Hermione's character and that all of Ron's doubts and fears had been right all along. And that's not what we're shown at all. Hermione's just not the type of person who would do something that horrible. If she had been dating Krum, then she would have told them that she was dating Krum in GOF. She wouldn't have hidden it - she would have asked Krum to join her for meals and invited him to Hosgmeade for a date where everyone could see them. It would also mean that Ginny intentionally and callously betrayed Hermione's confidence - and if Hermione was dating Krum in secret and lying about it she certainly would have told Ginny not to say anything to anyone. Ginny could be immature and rude at times, but she was not the type of person who would deliberately betray someone she considered a friend.

It's significant either way, whether Hermione kissed Krum or not, whether she told Ginny or Ginny just assumed. Either way it paints someone in a bad light. In your way, Hermione looks like the poor victim and Ginny and Harry (and Ron sort of) are awful friends for 1) not believing their friend 2) making assumptions about her without asking her to confirm them 3) not understanding their friend well enough to tell the difference between a lie and the truth.

My way, Hermione is the one in a bad light, or rather a more complicated light. There's nothing wrong with liking more than one boy. She had no obligation to Ron to never kiss Viktor or to even tell him about it. It was a complicated situation with no easy answer and it was her right to keep those things private. But then I also don't feel bad for what she went through in HBP as it was ultimately a mess of her own making that lead to her situation.

I'm just of the opinion that Hermione is not a perfect little angel so I don't have the same difficulty you do in picturing her in a bad light.

Plus I don't see it as the crime of the century you portray it as either. I doubt she would've sat with krum or have him join her if they were dating and everyone knew or abandon Ron and Harry to spend every free moment with Krum. Just because I think they were somewhat involved doesn't mean I think of Hermione as a completely different person. And I don't know when or even if they ever got to the boyfriend/girlfriend stage in their relationship. She was a completely inexperienced 15 year old girl and handled it the best she could. She made a lot of mistakes, but so do most kids.

As for Ginny, she said some things when she was angry. Ron and Harry say some pretty awful things to each other in the tent that they never would've said otherwise. If Ron hadn't practically called her a slut, I'm sure Ginny wouldn't have said anything about Hermione. And even then, there's no way Hermione could've told Ginny "And don't say anything to Ron" without giving her feelings for Ron away. They might've had an unspoken agreement not to reveal each other's secrets, but clearly both girls don't apply the same rules when it comes to Ron and Harry.

That's a large part of why Ginny's assumption falls apart when you look at what is actually presented in GOF. There was never any reason for Hermione to hide a romantic relationship if she had been involved in one - or to lie about it afterward if that had been the case. She had no reason to keep a secret like that. She wasn't dating Ron at the time - nor had either of them admitted their feelings for each other. That's a scenario that simply does not work and it is not consistent with Hermione or Ginny's characterizations at all, IMO.

Ginny being wrong in her assumption has no impact because she was wrong. Hermione did not lie in that scenario. Ginny did not betray anyone. That comes down to Ginny misconstruing information and Ron making a mistake by not discussing it with Hermione. Those are issues that they needed to resolve, but they weren't significant to the story so they could be resolved off page with the reader only seeing the results.

There is a tremendous reason for Hermione to hide a relationship: Ron. Just because she likes Viktor doesn't mean she stops liking Ron. She didn't know what she was doing with Viktor or where it was going, and I think it highly likely that she didn't want to ruin any chance of things with Ron in the future when she had to know Krum was leaving at the end of the year which at the very least would make any sort of long term relationship quite difficult. Lots of people don't go around broadcasting their relationship until they're sure it's serious. Maybe she and Krum never got there, or maybe it took all year to get there and then he left.

Regardless, if she wasn't interested in Krum, there was no reason to be completely forthright about every detail of her and Krum's friendship. Her excuse that the boys would laugh at her is just that: an excuse. Why would she think they would laugh when they both idolized Krum before that point? Why not just come out and tell Ron "Of course I told Viktor I'm not going to Bulgaria"? No, Hermione probably guessed that her relationship with Krum wouldn't last and didn't want to give up on Ron as a possibility in the future, so she enjoyed Mr. Right Now and did her best not to let anything slip to Mr. Right.

Ginny being wrong has only a minor implication for Ginny since her relationship with Hermione is fairly minor, but it would have major implications for both the Ron/Hermione and Harry/Hermione relationships moving forward. Knowing that the two of the lacked trust, faith and confidence in her as a person, believed her not only capable of kissing Krum but hiding her relationship for 2 years would definitely have an impact on the trio on-page, even if it was only discussed off-page.

Whether or not Hermione kissed Krum was not important at all because the underlying issue there was the lack of communication. That was a situation that could have easily been avoided if Ron had simply gone to Hermione and discussed it with her. Likewise, Hermione could have confronted Ron and demanded that he explain why he was suddenly mad at her when she hadn't done anything. That was the root of the problem - neither of them even attempted to discuss it. Learning how to communicate with each other to avoid issues like this was part of Ron and Hermione's journey. We get enough information to know that they did resolve it and we see the results in that they have much better communication with each other after this experience.

In order for Ginny's claim to be true, the evidence must be present on page in GOF because that's where the kiss would have occurred. There's no getting around that. Harry believing it is irrelevant because his believe is based on an incorrect assumption in and of itself - he thinks Hermione would want Krum because he's a famous Quidditch player. Ginny believing it is irrelevant as well because there is no evidence to support her claim. Ron believing it was shown to be due to his insecurities and part of his journey was realizing that he was wrong about all of that.

What they believe is not always what actually happened. Ginny and Hermione believed that Molly was inviting Tonks over in hopes that Bill would fall for her and dump Fleur, but that is not supported by the text - though it was never confirmed or denied on page. It's more likely that Molly was inviting Tonks over simply to comfort her because of the situation with Lupin. It's certainly possible that she might have hoped Bill and Tonks might get together, but it's not very likely since she was so supported of Tonks being with Lupin and criticized him for rejecting her. Harry believed Draco had the Dark Mark in HBP - it was never revealed on page whether or not he actually did. As I said before, there were a lot of questions left unanswered at the end of the series because it simply was not possible to tie up every single loose end - Jo acknowledged that even before DH came out. She knew fans would still have lots of questions - that's why she created Pottermore after all.

Actually, it was Harry who assumed Tonks was in love with Sirius. Hermione assumed that Tonks was suffering from survivor's guilt - and it was never revealed on page whether or not Hermione was right about that. The issue with Lupin does not rule out survivor's guilt and it certainly could have been the combination of the two that caused Tonks to become so depressed that she had difficulty with her morphing abilities. We can only speculate about that because it was never revealed though. Harry also makes jokes about Madame Pince and Filch dating - we never got anything further on that either, but many fans have speculated about the possibility since Harry brought it up.

I agree that communication (or lack thereof) was a huge part of the situation, but it doesn't negate either the lack of trust which is also very important imo. If the kiss did happen, it was Hermione's lack of trust in Ron which resulted in her hiding the situation with Krum. You and I both agree that this perception would be even more devastating to Ron than the kiss itself. So in this scenario, the lack of trust is dealt with.

But if the kiss didn't take place, then it is Ron's lack of trust in Hermione to believe Ginny's assumption over Hermione's own word. In this scenario, the issue of trust isn't dealt with, something you think would be important considering it's going to be the trio against the world starting next book.

[staff edit]

Actually, it was confirmed that Bill wasn't the reason Molly invited Tonks over

"And I've told you a million times," said Lupin, refusing to meet her eyes, staring at the floor, "that I am too old for you, too poor... too dangerous..."

"I've said all along you're taking a ridiculous line on this, Remus," said Mrs. Weasley

Right here, we know that Mrs. Weasley knew about Tonk's feelings for Lupin and thus knew that she couldn't use her to break up Bill and Fleur. If you think that there's any question that she really was trying to get Bill and Tonks together after this passage, then I am afraid we are at an impasse because to me it is perfectly clear what Molly was doing with Tonks and it had nothing to do with Bill. That was a misperception that was cleared up 100% imo.

Same for Draco's Dark Mark. We never see it, but we are told he passed through the barrier that blocked anyone without a Dark Mark from crossing. Again, confirmed albeit in an indirect fashion.

So those aren't really evidence. And my point was never that there aren't some questions or mysteries left; rather, when one of the main characters makes a major assumption and is WRONG, the matter is cleared up at some point. And so far, the kiss would be the only such case that isn't. And no, I don't count Filch and Pince since even if Harry was right, it was clearly meant as nothing more than a joke. Nor is that a particularly major assumption.

If it is an issue that is important to the plot, it must be resolved on page to show whether the assumption was right or wrong. Minor issues like the possibility of Tonks suffering from survivor's guilt and whether or not Hermione kissed another boy a couple years back were not significant to the plot and could be resolved off page because all that mattered there was the end result.

Except Hermione kissing a boy was relevant to the plot. It drove a third of the lot in HBP. I don't know how that was irrelevant especially when the unstable trio played a role in the main plot of HBP by intersecting with Draco's activities in two major ways. Tonks survivor's guilt or lack of survivor's guilt or harry wondering about her survivor's guilt wasn't even it's own plot line, let alone a factor on any others.

I agree thought that important issues must be resolved. Last we hear was the Hermione kissed Krum. That's the last word on the matter and it's never refuted. That to me is resolution; we finally know what happened between her and Krum.

Another example was Harry's assumption that Draco had the Dark Mark in HBP - it was never revealed whether or not he had the Dark Mark at that time. He probably did, but we can't say that with any certainty. Molly and Hermione both assumed that Sirius was attempting to recreate his friendship with James through Harry, but it was never revealed on page whether or not that was the case - and that's still an issue that gets debated among fans to this day. Luna and her father assume that Fudge was part of various conspiracies - like having a secret army of fire creatures - but it was never revealed on page whether or not they were right about any of that. Harry and his friends assume they were wrong, but it's never addressed specifically on page. They also believe in creatures like the Crumple-Horned Snorckack, but it was never revealed on page whether the creature actually existed. Jo mentioned in an interview that Luna never found one, but that doesn't rule out the existence.

[staff edit] Draco has the mark because he passed through the barrier. That's certainty. Whether Sirius was attempting to recreate his friendship with James doesn't have to be a 'yes' or 'no' situation. That questions has a large degree of answers. Whether Draco has the mark or whether Hermione kissed Krum are not questions where "kind-of" can be an acceptable answer; it's either yes or no. It happend or it didn't. The Sirius question is a good one to debate because it's actually debatable depending on who you ask.

[staff edit]

Snogging is not just a simple kiss. It's British slang for making out - Ron and Lavender were snogging in the common room. Now, I could see Hermione letting Krum give her a peck on the cheek - or maybe even a peck on the lips with their mouths closed - to be polite during the Yule Ball - though even that seems unlikely with Harry witnessing them saying good night because he would have said something if that had happened, IMO. I cannot see Hermione making out like Ron and Lavender were with a boy she barely knew and demonstrated no romantic attraction to at all.

Yes, I know the difference between snogging and kissing. [staff edit] It doesn't matter to me whether Hermione snogged Krum or pecked him on the lips. A kiss is a kiss is a kiss and I think that's all Ginny was getting at. Harry didn't 'snog' Cho either based on what we saw in the RoR and his description to R&Hr, but he certainly didn't feel the need to amend her statement. So to me, if you want to say they didn't snog but only kissed, that's fine. I have no problem with that.

Deliberately hiding a romantic relationship and lying about it for over two years does a lot of damage to Hermione's characterization actually. It changes how she was presented entirely. The issue is not Hermione being perfect, but rather being a decent person who would never use and manipulate people in such a manner. Hermione was never presented as such a deceptive, manipulative person - on the contrary, she was terrible at lying and I really can't see Hermione being so cruel to both Krum and Ron in such a horrible way.

She blackmailed Skeeter, she used McLaggen to make Ron jealous, she confounded McLaggen because he said some foul things about her friends, she used the centaurs to get rid of Umbridge, she withheld the fact that she'd jinxed the D.A. parchment from people she was supposedly allied with, she belittled Ron constantly for the first half of OotP, she threatened the twins with writing their mother.

I don't know what else to say. Lying/hiding a romantic relationship from her friends is totally in line with a girl who does everything I just described. Why is it so hard to believe this one thing after all those other events?

Now, I don't think this makes Hermione an 'indecent' person. It makes her flawed, possible the most flawed in the trio. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I'm just tired of people ignoring those flaws when they're right there on the page. I'd go into Harry's and Ron's flaws to show that they're no better/worse, but this isn't their thread.

As for Ginny, that would mean she is cold, callous person who would intentionally betray a friend's confidence - more so because, if that were the case, then Hermione would also have specifically instructed Ginny not to tell Ron because she would have put so much effort into her lies to convince him that she and Krum were never anything more than friends in that scenario. While I don't see any evidence that would suggest Ginny and Hermione were very close, I can't see Ginny deliberately trying to hurt Hermione like that either.

You should probably move all the Ginny talk to the other thread. Regardless, I'm sorry that you judge her so harshly [staff edit] but I don't feel that way about her at all. And nothing I've stated indicates that Ginny was trying to hurt Hermione.

It fits into her personality in that Ginny liked to gossip. Gossip isn't always wrong so sometimes Ginny was right, but there were times when it appeared that she was wrong as well - like Ginny and Hermione assuming Molly was trying to fix Bill of with Tonks so he would dump Fleur. It also fits into her personality in that she would say things without thinking them through when she was angry - which Ron did quite a bit as well.

Wait why do you think Ginny likes to gossip? Because of that one instance where Hermione was also involved? How does ONE example make gossip a part of Ginny's character?

Um, I remember Hermione reporting on a good deal of gossip in both 5th and 6th year, so apparently she must love gossip too. At least more than Ginny does. And where else does she say things in anger without thinking? About the only other time I can think is the tantrum she throws during the battle in DH, and that's pretty understandable.

You and I clearly have very opposing views on Ginny and I don't see anything to support your ideas in the books. One instance where Ginny participates in gossip doesn't mean she likes to gossip. I could look at the instance where Hermione set the birds on Ron and use that as evidence that she's a sadist. But clearly, there's nothing else in the series to support that, just as there's nothing else that supports Ginny loving gossip. [staff edit] But really, this is the Hermione thread and Ginny shouldn't be discussed here.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by GingerCat1

Its in the chapter "Padfoot Returns". So as you can see Ron was well aware of the invitating in GoF and i think Ron would have known if Hermione went to Bulgaria considering Hermione came to Grimmauld Place less than a month after the holidays begun and i doubt Hermione could have kept it a secret from Ron if she did go as Ron would have asked her and if Hermione did go Ron would be able to tell that she was lying.

Thanks for the quote....I obviously read all around that passage while looking for it.

However, the fact remains (I think) that Hermione does not answer Ron one way or the other regarding whether or not she intended to visit, and I don't find any further discussion of it (that I can find, anyway) in OOTP. If Hermione did visit and HAD told Ron, I think there would have been an uncomfortable edge to their interactions with Ron imagining the worst scenario in his mind, and I didn't see that.

Originally Posted by meesha1971

Ron later reveals that they went to stay at Grimmauld Place about a week after school had ended so we know that Hermione did not go to Bulgaria. She spent that week with her parents and then went to Grimmauld Place from what we're shown.

Actually, we don't know if Hermione spent that time with her parents or not. For all we know, she could have told them that she needed to be with the Weasleys at Dumbledore's request, and not returned home at all. She certainly wouldn't have told them about the impending war and Grimmauld. If you have a quote from the book where Hermione says exactly when she got to Grimmauld and if/how long she may have spent at home prior to that, would you please post it up, because I can't find anything. Which means that Hermione could very well have gone to Bulgaria before joining the Weasleys. Also, if you have the quote from Ron that you refer to above, that would be helpful as well. Just because Ron was there a week later doesn't mean Hermione was. Arthur, Molly and Bill were in the Order and would have gone in early, along with Fred, George, Ron & Ginny. But there was no reason for Hermione to get there at the same time.

[HRW]

There's so much we don't know due to the entire story being from Harry's PoV that all we can do is just guess. Here's my take on it

1. I think there's a good chance Hermione did kiss Viktor Krum. It's never confirmed but it's never been denied either.

2. How Ginny would've known about the kiss (if it did take place) is again complete guesswork. Hermione could have told her, or she might have caught Hermione in the act, or someone might have told her or she was just making an assumption based on the fact that Viktor and Hermione were supposed to be dating.

3. I don't think Hermione had much feelings for Krum or even if there was something it was mainly down to her being flattered by someone like Krum showing an interest her. And any feelings for Krum in my opinion were largely overshadowed by her feelings for Ron. There are 2 separate occasions after the Yule Ball where Hermione is not best pleased at Fleur giving Ron attention. In she is described as being furious when Fleur kisses Ron. The second instance was at the end of the book.

4. I don't think she went to (or wanted to) Bulgaria. After Hermione and Krum meet for the last time in GoF (this is right after she gets annoyed by Ron sucking up to Fleur) she does not blush or does not return with her face flushing or anything. This is pure guesswork (like the rest of the post) but for me this is the conversation where she probably tells Krum they can't be more than friends. And even if she did want to go to Bulgaria I can't see her parents allowing it. Going to Diagon Alley or the Burrow alone is completely different. They know the Weasley's having met them before and it's in the same country. No sane parents would allow their 15 year old daughter to go to different country with a famous athlete no matter how independent that girl might be. And I can't see Hermione's parents being too impressed with her wanting to be off to Bulgaria right after she spends 10 months at Hogwarts.

[TenderHooligan]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Thanks for the quote....I obviously read all around that passage while looking for it.

However, the fact remains (I think) that Hermione does not answer Ron one way or the other regarding whether or not she intended to visit, and I don't find any further discussion of it (that I can find, anyway) in OOTP. If Hermione did visit and HAD told Ron, I think there would have been an uncomfortable edge to their interactions with Ron imagining the worst scenario in his mind, and I didn't see that.

Actually, we don't know if Hermione spent that time with her parents or not. For all we know, she could have told them that she needed to be with the Weasleys at Dumbledore's request, and not returned home at all. She certainly wouldn't have told them about the impending war and Grimmauld. If you have a quote from the book where Hermione says exactly when she got to Grimmauld and if/how long she may have spent at home prior to that, would you please post it up, because I can't find anything. Which means that Hermione could very well have gone to Bulgaria before joining the Weasleys. Also, if you have the quote from Ron that you refer to above, that would be helpful as well. Just because Ron was there a week later doesn't mean Hermione was. Arthur, Molly and Bill were in the Order and would have gone in early, along with Fred, George, Ron & Ginny. But there was no reason for Hermione to get there at the same time.

I just don't see Ron just letting the matter drop about Hermione visiting Bulgaria unless she either told him she didn't go/wasn't planning to go or that the time between the end of school and her arrival at Grimmauld Place made such a trip impractical if not outright impossible. At most there were three weeks between the end of school and her arrival at Grimmauld place (based on Harry's comments about Ron's and Hermione's letters) and it's implied that Ron wanted both Harry and Hermione to join them immediately. Obviously Harry had to stay put because of the Dursley's protection, but if Hermione's arrival was delayed more than a day or two, it only makes sense that he would ask her what kept her.

He knows Hermione hadn't answered Krum by March and she went off with him right before the train and that's essentially the last R/Hr interaction in GoF. It had to be on his brain. So if she did go before 5th year, the only conclusion I can arrive at is she directly lied to Ron, which doesn't quite gel with her usual strategy of talking around the truth.

Plus I agree with HRW's comment about the parental issue involved. Even if Hermione was set and planning to go to Bulgaria that summer, I doubt her parents would let her go alone or be ready to go with her the minute she got back from school. No, if a trip WAS planned, it makes more sense that it either didn't happen that summer or was planned for the Christmas hols and again got cancelled when Mr. Weasley was attacked. She could've gone before 6th year, but by then I get the impression that whatever went on between Hermione and Krum was over and that's a long trip to make just to tell someone 'I like you as a friend.'

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Thanks for the quote....I obviously read all around that passage while looking for it.

However, the fact remains (I think) that Hermione does not answer Ron one way or the other regarding whether or not she intended to visit, and I don't find any further discussion of it (that I can find, anyway) in OOTP. If Hermione did visit and HAD told Ron, I think there would have been an uncomfortable edge to their interactions with Ron imagining the worst scenario in his mind, and I didn't see that.

Hermione did not answer because Snape interrupted them. However, I think what she was saying prior to the interruption and her tone made it clear that she was going to tell them that she said no. And looking at the scene by the lake, it's pretty clear that Hermione was not interested, IMO. She wasn't paying much attention to Krum at all because she was so focused on Harry and Ron. Harry noted how Krum kept trying to draw her attention back to him.

Actually, we don't know if Hermione spent that time with her parents or not. For all we know, she could have told them that she needed to be with the Weasleys at Dumbledore's request, and not returned home at all. She certainly wouldn't have told them about the impending war and Grimmauld. If you have a quote from the book where Hermione says exactly when she got to Grimmauld and if/how long she may have spent at home prior to that, would you please post it up, because I can't find anything. Which means that Hermione could very well have gone to Bulgaria before joining the Weasleys. Also, if you have the quote from Ron that you refer to above, that would be helpful as well. Just because Ron was there a week later doesn't mean Hermione was. Arthur, Molly and Bill were in the Order and would have gone in early, along with Fred, George, Ron & Ginny. But there was no reason for Hermione to get there at the same time.

None of them every specifically say what date they arrived at Grimmauld Place. However, I think there is more than enough information provided to work out the general time frame. Here are the quotes that seem most relevant to me for figuring that out.

OOTP, pg 8 As far as Harry could tell from the vague hints in their letters, Hermione and Ron were in the same place, presumably at Ron’s parents’ house.

That implies that Ron and Hermione had been together all summer. If Harry had received an individual letter from Hermione that revealed she wasn't with Ron, it would have been noted, IMO. And, really, Hermione had no reason not to tell Harry if she was in Bulgaria. The same as she told him when she wrote to him from France.

OOTP, pg 10 And his reward was to be stuck in Little Whinging for four solid weeks, completely cut off from the magical world, reduced to squatting among dying begonias so that he could hear about water-skiing budgerigars!

This establishes the overall time frame from the end of term to Harry being attacked and subsequently taken to Grimmauld Place. Four weeks is not very long and, as Harry had previously noted, it appeared to him that Ron and Hermione had been staying in the same place that entire time. He assumed they were at the Burrow of course, but found out they were at Grimmauld Place.

OOTP, pgs 64-65 “We told Dumbledore we wanted to tell you what was going on,” said Ron. “We did, mate. But he’s really busy now, we’ve only seen him twice since we came here and he didn’t have much time, he just made us swear not to tell you important stuff when we wrote, he said the owls might be intercepted —”

From what Ron is saying here, it sounds as though he and Hermione arrived at Grimmauld Place together and received instructions from Dumbledore regarding their letters to Harry immediately.

That also comes back to Hermione's letters. If she had gone to Bulgaria, she would have written Harry before receiving Dumbledore's instructions so she wouldn't have been as cautious, IMO.

OOTP, pgs 70-71 “It was the first week back after term ended,” said Ron. “We were about to come and join the Order. Percy came home and told us he’d been promoted.”

OOTP, pgs 73 “Percy takes the Daily Prophet seriously,” said Hermione tartly, and the others all nodded.

I included that last quote because it sounds as though Hermione was there when Percy and Arthur argued. She's not saying they told her that or that it seems that way from what they have told her. She's speaking directly as though she heard that from Percy himself, IMO.

But Ron establishes that they went to Grimmauld Place within the first week after the school term ended and, with the other quotes, it sounds as though Hermione was already with the Weasleys and they went there together. I do think that Hermione would have taken at least a few days to spend with her parents, but it's certainly possible that she was taken to the Burrow. After all, Ron and Hermione's safety would have been a concern at that point since it was known they were Harry's best friends. I could see Dumbledore sending someone from the Order to speak with Hermione's parents and arranging for her to stay with the Weasleys for her protection.

I cannot see Hermione lying to her parents about staying with the Weasleys and sneaking off to Bulgaria. For one thing, she was only 15 at that point - she didn't turn 16 until September 19. She didn't learn how to apparate until she was 17 - in HBP. And Hermione couldn't do magic outside of school at that time regardless because she was only 15. Krum had returned home without her at the end of GOF. Sneaking off to Bulgaria on her own at the age of 15 without magic - I don't see that happening at all. For another, it would have been a simple matter for her parents to contact the Weasleys to verify that Hermione was going to stay with them - which they likely would do in order to make arrangements to take Hermione there or for the Weasleys to pick her up. Again, Hermione is only 15 years old here.

Nor can I see Hermione's parents allowing her to visit Krum in Bulgaria. Again, she's only 15. Her rights are limited to what her parents and the law will allow. Krum was at least 18 - possibly close to 19 at that point - and was already independent with a professional Quidditch career. I can't see any parent allowing their 15 year old daughter to travel alone to another country to stay with an 18-19 year old boy that they've never met. That is entirely different from leaving their daughter in the care of the Weasleys - whom they had met and knew had a daughter for Hermione to share a room with.

All in all, I think it's made pretty clear through the text and the circumstances in general that Hermione never went to Bulgaria.

ETA -

TenderHooligan - I haven't forgotten you. My response came out way too long and I'm editing it to make it a more reasonable length.

[cool_chick_div]

Someone mentioned Hermione's parents. I've always wondered how they reacted to Hermione spending so much time away from them; Hogwarts and with the Weasleys. I know she does go home at times. I can't recall all.

That got me thinking about how the muggle parents react to their children away for so long and then wanting to stay for Christmas and spend holidays with friends. I feel like Hogwarts may put some strain on these relationships. An instance is probably with Lily. I don't know, but that's for another thread.

I don't feel that Hermione's parents would also be to pleased that she put memory charms on them even if it was to protect them. i'm sure they would have been angry and concerned at first but then realize the importance of it and Hermione's role in the war.