Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v.5

[Moriath]

I didn't expect to ever do this again but here we go with another version!


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Originally Posted by cardinalguy I also had the impression they kept the whole cupboard thing a secret from everybody. When Harry's first Hogwarts letter is addressed "the cupboard under the stairs," Vernon wonders how they know (thinking they may have surveillance on the house) and immediately moves Harry to Dudley's second bedroom. Originally Posted by HedwigOwl Also, the invisibility booster failed during the trip, and Ron had to risk lowering under the cloud cover to make sure they were going in the same direction as the train: So they were at a disadvantage because they couldn't stay cloaked, yet needed to check on their direction. Originally Posted by meesha1971 Good example. I should have included that one. The Dursleys were very image conscious so they were careful with how they behaved towards Harry in public and concocted stories for the neighbors that made them think Harry was unstable. Like many abused children, Harry never told anyone what they were doing to him. That changed when he went to Hogwarts - though even there, I don't think he actually told anyone the full extent of the abuse he suffered. Not in great detail anyway. That's true. But Fred and George didn't use the invisibility booster when they took the car to rescue Harry. It wasn't even mentioned at that point. It's not really clear in the books, but I've always wondered if Arthur installed the invisibility booster because of them taking the car to rescue Harry - the booster being faulty implied that it might have been recently installed and had not been tested yet. Or maybe he'd just never mentioned it before so the kids never knew about it. Either way, they didn't use it that night. Still, the booster was faulty so, even though Ron tried to use it, it didn't provide any benefit for him and Harry.

Use it wisely!

[twinsrule26]

Originally Posted by Moriath

I didn't expect to ever do this again but here we go with another version!

Good to see you remembered how.

There was no need for Fred and George to use it at night . I do agree that it could have been a new addition to the car ,but I can't see Arthur not testing something to make sure it worked properly . Maybe it was so new an invention that Arthur didn't know it would fail after a few hours of continuous usage. Arthur could have just done a short test of say 1 hours length and thought it was fine.

[Chelsie]

Hermione get hit by a dark spell in the DOM, which nearly claims her life. So, why then, does she not express any interest in finding out more about the spell?

I think this is odd; most people, let alone Hermione, would be inquisitive or try to be knowledgeable about what tried to kill them. In HBP, it never concerns her.

[Fawkesfan1]

Originally Posted by Chelsie

Hermione get hit by a dark spell in the DOM, which nearly claims her life. So, why then, does she not express any interest in finding out more about the spell?

I think this is odd; most people, let alone Hermione, would be inquisitive or try to be knowledgeable about what tried to kill them. In HBP, it never concerns her.

Good point, Chelsie. But I think that it might be due to the fact that they were in danger. So she just never had the chance or the time to do that.

[Chelsie]

But HBP was just another school year, and even though the danger was more pronounced in the WW, they were safe at Hogwarts. Hermione had a lot of time on her hands, what with her going to parties and scheming against Ron, she could just as easily afforded some time looking up information in the library about the curse. The school had dark magic books she could have peeked at. It would have given her something to do.

*Not that I wanted her to be seduced by it, but it would have been nice if one of the trio had the gumption to say 'hey, we're in a war, so let's look at these books so we can see what other spells we are up against- and possibly learn some, too'.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by Chelsie

Hermione get hit by a dark spell in the DOM, which nearly claims her life. So, why then, does she not express any interest in finding out more about the spell?

I think this is odd; most people, let alone Hermione, would be inquisitive or try to be knowledgeable about what tried to kill them. In HBP, it never concerns her.

She may very well have found out about it. We have no way of knowing. After all, we didn't know that she knew about Fiendfyre until it came up.

[purplehawk]

Originally Posted by willfitz

She may very well have found out about it. We have no way of knowing. After all, we didn't know that she knew about Fiendfyre until it came up.

We do know that Poppy told her the spell would have been much worse had Dolohov been able to articulate the actual word(s). From that, I assumed that the nurse had told Hermione something about the spell.

[mexicant]

Originally Posted by Chelsie

Hermione get hit by a dark spell in the DOM, which nearly claims her life. So, why then, does she not express any interest in finding out more about the spell?

I think this is odd; most people, let alone Hermione, would be inquisitive or try to be knowledgeable about what tried to kill them. In HBP, it never concerns her.

I think that we just don't know what she did or did not do. With the books written from Harry's point of view, we only know what he is doing at all hours of the day. We know Hermione was constantly in the library, so she very well may have looked it up. Then again, she might also have wanted nothing to do with a curse that hurt her so badly.

[Chelsie]

I find that difficult to believe tbh, no offense. Hermione doesn't strike me as a character to stick her head in the sand. JKR missed a trick IMO. When I read that hermione knew of fiejdfyre, I got chillbumps (in a good way).

How did wizards know the blood status of other wizards? In diagon ally, lucius says something about HG not having magical blood, but how could he know? PB families who brought into that 'pure blood is superior' mantra have been known to blast off family members who married wrongly or wronged the family. For all Lucius knew, hermione could have been half blood. I'd like to know how house elves and paintings knew.

Draco Malfoy says he got his coin idea from the DA, but how? The whole point of the coins were so they were inconspicuous. So how could he have known about them?

[BurrowGhoul]

I got the impression from something Ron said that there weren't very many pureblood families left any more. Since Lucius did not know her family, it was easy for him to deduce that she was not a pureblood. And, because the Grangers were in Diagon Alley dressed as Muggles and exchanging Muggle money, her blood status was pretty clear.

As far as the paintings go, they could travel from one to the other, so news could travel very quickly. I can't speculate on house elves, they have a magic of their own, but much like servants in Victorian England, they blend into the background, and many people are indiscreet when they don't realize someone is listening.

[MrSleepyHead]

Originally Posted by Chelsie

I find that difficult to believe tbh, no offense. Hermione doesn't strike me as a character to stick her head in the sand. JKR missed a trick IMO. When I read that hermione knew of fiejdfyre, I got chillbumps (in a good way).

Hermione presumably does a lot of things off-page that we don't know about. I agree that she's not the type of character who wouldn't be interested in finding out about the spell that almost killed her, but her investigation simply may not have found its way on page/under discussion. For instance, we didn't know that she 'stole' the Horcrux books until it cropped up during a conversation; perhaps this was something that wasn't included on page because it didn't progress the plot. In any way, it seems like a pretty limited spell to me (nonverbal makes it less powerful, it's close range) that is intended for great harm: not the type of curse Hermione would likely use.

Originally Posted by Chelsie

How did wizards know the blood status of other wizards? In diagon ally, lucius says something about HG not having magical blood, but how could he know? PB families who brought into that 'pure blood is superior' mantra have been known to blast off family members who married wrongly or wronged the family. For all Lucius knew, hermione could have been half blood. I'd like to know how house elves and paintings knew.

I think BurrowGhoul offers good explanations for why Lucius knew Hermione was Muggle-born, though I would add that it seems clear from the text (CoS) that Draco specifically told his father that Hermione had no magical ancestry.

Originally Posted by Chelsie

Draco Malfoy says he got his coin idea from the DA, but how? The whole point of the coins were so they were inconspicuous. So how could he have known about them?

This is a good question. Though it's not supported by the text, it is (very slightly) possible that Marietta's confession included something about the coins, and Umbridge relayed that information to the Inquisitorial Squad. Or, perhaps the Inquisitorial Squad's raid upon the Room of Requirement discovered a Galleon or two, and Draco was perceptive enough to realize that the serial code around the edges was actually code for dates and times. Or, maybe, he just overheard members of the D.A. talking about it when he could act as a 'spy' for the Inquisitorial Squad. Basically, there doesn't seem to be a definite answer, but I don't find it implausible that Draco was able to discover the Protean Charm communication mechanism.

[wolfbrother]

Weren't the Galleons charmed so that the serial number would reflect the time and date of the next meeting? How did Draco manage to use it to communicate other things with Rosmerta?

[sjcuk13]

I always got the impression that because the whole confession and the "battle" afterwards were secret everyone knew about it and the majority of the details. At one point the narrative dose say that despite a few things (Fudges head being turned into a pumpkin) Harry is surprised by how accurate the rumors are.
The other possibility is that as Marietta confessed everything to Umbridge she knew about the coins and told the Inquisitorial Squad what they were this wouldn't have taken Draco long to realize that it was the same charm as Voldemort used on him .... I think I am right in saying he had gained his Dark Mark by the time he used the coin.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

Weren't the Galleons charmed so that the serial number would reflect the time and date of the next meeting? How did Draco manage to use it to communicate other things with Rosmerta?

Well, Rosmerta was also under Draco's Imperius Curse, so all he had to do was devise any kind of code and give Rosmerta the means to interpret it through that Imperius.

[meesha1971]

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead

Hermione presumably does a lot of things off-page that we don't know about. I agree that she's not the type of character who wouldn't be interested in finding out about the spell that almost killed her, but her investigation simply may not have found its way on page/under discussion. For instance, we didn't know that she 'stole' the Horcrux books until it cropped up during a conversation; perhaps this was something that wasn't included on page because it didn't progress the plot. In any way, it seems like a pretty limited spell to me (nonverbal makes it less powerful, it's close range) that is intended for great harm: not the type of curse Hermione would likely use.

I agree. We do know that Madame Pomfrey told them about the spell - Harry's thoughts reveal that at the end of OOTP. Hermione probably did look it up in more detail for the purpose of defense in case it was ever used again, but it never was used again so it never came up. At least not in the time frame of the story. The spell in and of itself was not an important plot point so what Hermione did or did not learn about it after the fact didn't have any impact.

I think BurrowGhoul offers good explanations for why Lucius knew Hermione was Muggle-born, though I would add that it seems clear from the text (CoS) that Draco specifically told his father that Hermione had no magical ancestry.

That's true. It's clear from the scene Harry witnessed at Borgin and Burke's that Draco had been complaining about such things all summer - to the point that Lucius was tired of hearing it. Considering that Lucius made a point to publicly embarrass Draco by mentioning his grades to a shopkeeper, I think it's likely that Draco was reprimanded when Lucius found out what his grades were to begin with. Draco's typical response to failure was to blame someone else so he would have been whining about the teachers showing favoritism to Hermione along with all the whining about Harry.

However, I think Lucius would have known regardless. The wizarding world is a small community and they seem to know everybody who is part of it. That makes it easier for muggleborns to be identified - they didn't grow up there and are obviously new faces. Seeing them in Diagon Alley while buying school supplies - witches and wizards would be able to tell which parents were muggles by their clothing as well as the need to exchange muggle money for wizard gold. Lucius pegged the Grangers as muggles on sight even without knowing those were Hermione's parents. First year muggleborns wouldn't have wizarding robes yet either. So I think a lot of it just comes down to witches and wizards knowing each other and being able to recognize muggles.

This is a good question. Though it's not supported by the text, it is (very slightly) possible that Marietta's confession included something about the coins, and Umbridge relayed that information to the Inquisitorial Squad. Or, perhaps the Inquisitorial Squad's raid upon the Room of Requirement discovered a Galleon or two, and Draco was perceptive enough to realize that the serial code around the edges was actually code for dates and times. Or, maybe, he just overheard members of the D.A. talking about it when he could act as a 'spy' for the Inquisitorial Squad. Basically, there doesn't seem to be a definite answer, but I don't find it implausible that Draco was able to discover the Protean Charm communication mechanism.

It seems most likely that Marietta would have told Umbridge about the coins in her confession - which would lead to others knowing about them as well. It's also possible that members of the DA talked about them after Umbridge was removed from the school. She was the reason they had to resort to such secrecy so, once she was gone, they wouldn't have felt it necessary to continue being so secretive. Harry didn't even see any need to continue the DA with Umbridge gone.

There's also the fact that Draco got the idea to sneak the poison into the school in a bottle of wine by eavesdropping on Harry and Hermione while they were talking in the library. Draco had used such tactics in the past as well. He found out about the plan to give Norbert to Charlie by tricking Ron into giving him the textbook he had stuck Charlie's letter in. I don't think any of that was intentionally carried out by Draco - it all sounded more like he got lucky in being in the right place at the right time and Ron giving him that particular book without realizing he was handing over the letter as well. But Draco was clever enough to take advantage of those things and use what he learned. He may have found out about the coins simply through eavesdropping on a conversation or even as part of the Inquisitor squad with Umbridge talking about them when he was around.

The one constant at Hogwarts is that it was nearly impossible to keep anything a complete secret. Like Dumbledore told Harry in the first book - what happened between him and Quirrell was a complete secret so "naturally, the whole school knows".

Originally Posted by wolfbrother

Weren't the Galleons charmed so that the serial number would reflect the time and date of the next meeting? How did Draco manage to use it to communicate other things with Rosmerta?

It would be simple enough to devise a numerical code to pass messages - you just have to assign each letter a number. The DA used the serial number because all they were passing was the time and date of meetings. But a numerical code could be used to pass any kind of message. That's likely what Neville did when they started using the coins again in DH - and how he was able to let those who were not at Hogwarts, but still had coins, know that Harry had returned and tell them to come back so they could overthrow Snape.

[SSJ_Jup81]

This is my first time in this thread, and I was wondering if this has been discussed. It's regarding PoA that I never thought about before until recently.

Now, as we all know, the twins have had the Marauder's Map since their first year at Hogwarts. Two years later, Ron starts Hogwarts. I'm pretty sure the twins were still using the map before handing it over to Harry. How come the twins never noticed Peter Pettigrew on the map? Well, not necessarily Peter, but how come they never noticed that someone was usually always tagging along with Ron? Or even Harry for that matter. How come he never noticed an extra person with Ron?

We know that Peter didn't disguise or hide himself or trick the map because Lupin saw him on it and as he said, "The map is never wrong".

[Yoana]

Originally Posted by SSJ_Jup81

Now, as we all know, the twins have had the Marauder's Map since their first year at Hogwarts. Two years later, Ron starts Hogwarts. I'm pretty sure the twins were still using the map before handing it over to Harry. How come the twins never noticed Peter Pettigrew on the map? Well, not necessarily Peter, but how come they never noticed that someone was usually always tagging along with Ron? Or even Harry for that matter. How come he never noticed an extra person with Ron?

That does seem like a hole; one explanation could be that they were rarely paying attention to their little brother on the map, being more interested in the areas around the secret tunnels' entrances or where teachers were. Plus, as they say, they'd long memorised everything of interest on the Hogwarts grounds by heart so they didn't need it anymore - that's why they gave it to Harry - so it's reasonable to assume they hadn't been using it that much by the time Ron came to Hogwarts. And when they did notice him and Pettigrew they probably assumed it was a schoolmate of his and never gave it a second thought.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by SSJ_Jup81

This is my first time in this thread, and I was wondering if this has been discussed. It's regarding PoA that I never thought about before until recently.

Now, as we all know, the twins have had the Marauder's Map since their first year at Hogwarts. Two years later, Ron starts Hogwarts. I'm pretty sure the twins were still using the map before handing it over to Harry. How come the twins never noticed Peter Pettigrew on the map? Well, not necessarily Peter, but how come they never noticed that someone was usually always tagging along with Ron? Or even Harry for that matter. How come he never noticed an extra person with Ron?

We know that Peter didn't disguise or hide himself or trick the map because Lupin saw him on it and as he said, "The map is never wrong".

It is something that has come up more than once on this thread. I think that popular explanations include all of what Yoana said, and in addition the fact that the scale of the map (to fit that much area onto one sheet of parchment) would probably not allow them to determine whether Peter was on Ron's person or else merely in the same room.

[Chelsie]

Colin Creevey is muggle, right? So what is he doing at Hogwarts in DH? I thought muggleborns were banned from Hogwarts, and were being rounded up by the ministry. I know there is apparition but they don't learn this until the 6th year. And, obviously, as a muggleborn he couldn't simply just walk around wizarding areas, for fear of capture. Was this ever explained?

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by Chelsie

Colin Creevey is muggle, right? So what is he doing at Hogwarts in DH? I thought muggleborns were banned from Hogwarts, and were being rounded up by the ministry. I know there is apparition but they don't learn this until the 6th year. And, obviously, as a muggleborn he couldn't simply just walk around wizarding areas, for fear of capture. Was this ever explained?

I don't think Colin was actually a student, I assumed he appeared for the battle. Haven't looked it up though, just what I remember!