Little Questions Answered v.21

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

Well, without the Potters dying there's no Love Protection for Harry. Which means there's nothing to destroy Voldemort's body and the Wizarding War just continues.

So Harry would grow up in what's basically a Police State, or worse.

I think Harry's protection came because Voldemort decided to honour Snape's request and gave Lily three chances to step aside. Otherwise I don't think such a protection could have occurred. James died and yet that couldn't save Lily. Lilly's death on the other hand gave Harry a protection because Voldemort decided to honour Snape's request and then went on to kill her. That I think protected Harry.

[ShadowSonic]

The reason it worked for Lily and not James was because Voldemort gave her a chance to actually do something. He killed James too quickly for James to do much except reach for his wand.

With Lily, she started screaming about killing her instead of Harry. Voldemort then got impatient and just AK'ed her on the spot, inadvertently creating an agreement between them (she said to kill her and not Harry, him killing her meant he agreed via actions). Thus he could not kill Harry because he'd accidentally agreed to her terms.

If he'd just knocked her out, or shoved her aside, or killed her before she could say anything, then there'd be no protection and they'd all be dead.

[The_Green_Woods]

Why did Voldemort give Muggleborn Lily a choice to live that he did not give Pureblood James? Voldemort was against Muggleborns. I don't think he would have given Lily a choice to live without reason. So if I have to search for a reason, then the only reason that seems possible to me is that Voldemort, for some reason decided to honour Snape's request to him to spare Lilys life. I believe Harry's protection came because of that. Not anything else.

[ShadowSonic]

Well, was Lily armed with a wand at the time? Voldemort killed James because he had his wand. He probably didn't see her as a threat right then and there, someone not worth his attention.

It wasn't so much a real choice to live, IMO, it was him just wanting to kill this Prophecy Baby first and foremost. Lily was unarmed and (in his mind) not a threat so he could just shove past her. Unfortunately he lost his temper and killed just when she coincidentally said just the right thing to create the love protection.

[The_Green_Woods]

I don't think James or Lily were having their wands with them when they were killed; I'm not sure though. Lily and James defied Voldemort three times and they were also members of the Order that stood against Voldemort. Many members were targets and many were killed by Voldemort personally. I think the Potters were targets too, because they along with the Longbottoms defied Voldemort and survived three times. I think Voldemort saw her and James as a threat long before the Prophecy. If Voldemort gave her a chance to step aside I think it was because he wanted to spare her for Snape who had requested Voldemort for her life.

[MrSleepyHead]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

Well, was Lily armed with a wand at the time? Voldemort killed James because he had his wand. He probably didn't see her as a threat right then and there, someone not worth his attention.

It wasn't so much a real choice to live, IMO, it was him just wanting to kill this Prophecy Baby first and foremost. Lily was unarmed and (in his mind) not a threat so he could just shove past her. Unfortunately he lost his temper and killed just when she coincidentally said just the right thing to create the love protection.

Voldemort notes that both James and Lily are wandless (James having left his on the couch after entertaining Harry). It also seems that Voldemort did indeed give Lily "a real choice to live" - see below:

DH He could hear her screaming from the upper floor, trapped, but as long as she was sensible, she, at least, had nothing to fear... He climbed the steps, listening with faint amusement to her attempts to barricade herself in... She had no wand upon her either... How stupid they were, and how trusting, thinking that their safetey lay in friends, that weapons could be discarded even for moments... He forced the door open, cast aside the chair and boxes hastily piled against it with one lazy wave of his wand... and there she stood, the child in her arms. At the sight of him, she dropped her son into the crib behind her and threw her arms wide, as if this would help, as if in shielding him from sight she hoped to be chosen instead... "Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!" "Stand aside, you silly girl... stand aside now." "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead --" "This is my last warning--" "Not Harry! Please... have mercy... have mercy... Not Harry! Not Harry! Please -- I'll do anything --" "Stand aside. Stand aside, girl!" He could have forced her away from the crib, but it seemed more prudent to finish them all...

However, I do agree that even if Voldemort intended to kill Lily after Harry, his giving Lily a choice that she refused in an effort to protect her son cemented the love/blood protection. James was not given such a choice. Similarly, in DH, Harry was given the choice by Voldemort to meet him in the forest to "save" his friends or to hide, in which case he would enter the battle and kill more of his friends. Harry choosing to sacrifice himself instead of others - a choice Voldemort voiced - instilled that love protection in the fighters of Hogwarts, too.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

If Voldemort gave her a chance to step aside I think it was because he wanted to spare her for Snape who had requested Voldemort for her life.

I agree. It was Lily's choice to die for her child rather than save her own life that allowed Harry to live. Lily would not have had that choice had Snape not asked Voldemort to spare her and had Voldemort not offered to spare her for Snape. Otherwise, I expect Voldemort would have killed James and then killed Lily without fuss (no "stand aside") before killing Harry. Therefore, Snape asking Voldemort to spare Lily (and Voldemort acting on that request) is paramount to Harry receiving the blood/love protection.

[OldMotherCrow]

James did not have his wand when he ran out to face Voldemort. I don't think Lily had her wand either. If she did she made no attempt to use it. I think the point of that was that neither were at that moment any threat to Voldemort when he chose to murder them, i.e., there was no "justification' for killing them.

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

Well, without the Potters dying there's no Love Protection for Harry. Which means there's nothing to destroy Voldemort's body and the Wizarding War just continues.

So Harry would grow up in what's basically a Police State, or worse.

I agree with this. The war would continue on. I think that without the destruction of Voldemort's body, Voldemort's Horcuxes would work weeble wobble-like to keep him around even if anyone managed to kill him.

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I think Harry's protection came because Voldemort decided to honour Snape's request and gave Lily three chances to step aside. Otherwise I don't think such a protection could have occurred. James died and yet that couldn't save Lily. Lilly's death on the other hand gave Harry a protection because Voldemort decided to honour Snape's request and then went on to kill her. That I think protected Harry.

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

The reason it worked for Lily and not James was because Voldemort gave her a chance to actually do something. He killed James too quickly for James to do much except reach for his wand.

With Lily, she started screaming about killing her instead of Harry. Voldemort then got impatient and just AK'ed her on the spot, inadvertently creating an agreement between them (she said to kill her and not Harry, him killing her meant he agreed via actions). Thus he could not kill Harry because he'd accidentally agreed to her terms.

If he'd just knocked her out, or shoved her aside, or killed her before she could say anything, then there'd be no protection and they'd all be dead.

I agree with ShadowSonic that Voldemort and Lily created a contract, because Voldemort opened negotiations and Lily counter offered, then Voldy inadvertently agreed to her terms by taking her up on her offer to kill her "instead". Voldy could have just Stupified her when he walked in the room, but he decided to present his murderousness as a choice she was making instead.

I think Voldemort did consider sparing her because of Snape's request, but it is Voldemort's personality foible that turned that into a contract, because he decided he needed to talk to her and turn it into a choice for her rather than just incapacitate her and get on with murdering Harry. I think Voldemort liked presenting his victims with cruel choices, because he liked to make his victims feel like the cruelty he inflicted was somehow something they chose. Or maybe he truly feels magnanimous when he does that-- he does genuinely seem to feel like he can murder whomsoever he wants, like their lives belong to him, so maybe he feels big when he offers people these false choices. Because Lily didn't choose what he offered, but instead countered with an offer of her own, this time it cme back to bite Voldemort for breaking the agreement. I think the same thing happened at the end of Deathly Hallows, when Voldemort agreed not to attack the castle if Harry came to him (this time terms Voldemort picked himself), and then Voldemort immediately went to attack the castle after he got Harry. I guess the lesson here is beware what magical contracts one enters into!

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow

I agree with ShadowSonic that Voldemort and Lily created a contract, because Voldemort opened negotiations and Lily counter offered, then Voldy inadvertently agreed to her terms by taking her up on her offer to kill her "instead". Voldy could have just Stupified her when he walked in the room, but he decided to present his murderousness as a choice she was making instead.

I think Voldemort did consider sparing her because of Snape's request, but it is Voldemort's personality foible that turned that into a contract, because he decided he needed to talk to her and turn it into a choice for her rather than just incapacitate her and get on with murdering Harry. I think Voldemort liked presenting his victims with cruel choices, because he liked to make his victims feel like the cruelty he inflicted was somehow something they chose. Or maybe he truly feels magnanimous when he does that-- he does genuinely seem to feel like he can murder whomsoever he wants, like their lives belong to him, so maybe he feels big when he offers people these false choices. Because Lily didn't choose what he offered, but instead countered with an offer of her own, this time it cme back to bite Voldemort for breaking the agreement. I think the same thing happened at the end of Deathly Hallows, when Voldemort agreed not to attack the castle if Harry came to him (this time terms Voldemort picked himself), and then Voldemort immediately went to attack the castle after he got Harry. I guess the lesson here is beware what magical contracts one enters into!

I don't understand why Voldemort would open a contract with Lily who he considered his enemy and who he intended to kill long before the Prophecy. I do think that without Snape's request and Voldemorts intention to honour Snape's request, Lilys death would not have created the protection that Harry received.

There is no reason in the Books to my understanding for Voldemort to open a dialogue/contract with Lily when he had just killed James and when Lily knew he was intending to kill baby Harry.

I think Snape was the reason (taking the Prophecy) Voldemort targeted the Potters specifically (to kill Harry), though I do believe they were pretty high on the list of wanted people long before the prophecy, but I also think it was because of Snape that Harry got his protection that ensured his survival in the end.

That this type of protection would be received by Harry is something No one would have never known or planned for, so the Potters need not have died.

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead

I agree. It was Lily's choice to die for her child rather than save her own life that allowed Harry to live. Lily would not have had that choice had Snape not asked Voldemort to spare her and had Voldemort not offered to spare her for Snape. Otherwise, I expect Voldemort would have killed James and then killed Lily without fuss (no "stand aside") before killing Harry. Therefore, Snape asking Voldemort to spare Lily (and Voldemort acting on that request) is paramount to Harry receiving the blood/love protection.

I think it was the fact Lily never refused Voldemort's offer. By that act she did not negate or cancel Voldemorts plan to honour Snape's request. Voldemort started to honour Snape's request and then went back on it. When he backed out and killed Lily, Snape's request merged with Lilys and gave Harry the protection Snape wanted for Lily and Lily wanted for Harry against Voldemort, to Harry.

[purplehawk]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I think it was the fact Lily never refused Voldemort's offer. By that act she did not negate or cancel Voldemorts plan to honour Snape's request. Voldemort started to honour Snape's request and then went back on it. When he backed out and killed Lily, Snape's request merged with Lilys and gave Harry the protection Snape wanted for Lily and Lily wanted for Harry against Voldemort, to Harry.

Curmudgeonly Old Lady here. I don't believe Snape had anything to do with the charm Lily bestowed on Harry when she gave her life trying to save him. Snape's request was obviously on Voldemort's mind when he entered that bedroom, but that's as far as it went. The protection came from a loving mother pleading for her child's life, asking to be killed instead so that he might be spared. There's no Snape in that at all.

[OldMotherCrow]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I don't understand why Voldemort would open a contract with Lily who he considered his enemy and who he intended to kill long before the Prophecy. I do think that without Snape's request and Voldemorts intention to honour Snape's request, Lilys death would not have created the protection that Harry received.

Snape's request is what caused Voldemort to not outright kill Lily, as I understand it, but had nothing to do with the protective magic. I don't think Voldemort's intention to honor Snape's request had anything to do with the protection, because Voldemort did not honor the request, and the agreement that got honored wasn't the one either Snape or Voldemort wanted, but the one Lily offered.

There is no reason in the Books to my understanding for Voldemort to open a dialogue/contract with Lily when he had just killed James and when Lily knew he was intending to kill baby Harry.

Well, that's why I was talking about Voldemort kind of thinking differently than normal people. Offering that kind of choice to a mother is just sickening, in my opinion. For Voldemort, either outcome he "wins", and gets to demonstrate his power over other people's lives. In fact, he kills Lily more because he decides she's inconvenient than anything else.

I think Snape was the reason (taking the Prophecy) Voldemort targeted the Potters specifically (to kill Harry), though I do believe they were pretty high on the list of wanted people long before the prophecy, but I also think it was because of Snape that Harry got his protection that ensured his survival in the end.

I think the books state that the protection was magic from Lily's sacrifice.

That this type of protection would be received by Harry is something No one would have never known or planned for, so the Potters need not have died.

The protective magic that Lily invoked seems to be a known but obscure type of protection. Both Dumbledore and Voldemort knew that it is an old type of magic.

I think it was the fact Lily never refused Voldemort's offer. By that act she did not negate or cancel Voldemorts plan to honour Snape's request. Voldemort started to honour Snape's request and then went back on it. When he backed out and killed Lily, Snape's request merged with Lilys and gave Harry the protection Snape wanted for Lily and Lily wanted for Harry against Voldemort, to Harry.

As I understand it, Snape requested that Voldemort spare Lily if Voldemort was able to kill her son, which is what caused Voldemort not to kill her outright, but Voldemort could have easily fulfilled Snape's request by incapacitating her. Instead Voldemort tried to get her to agree that if she stood aside and let him murder her son then he would let her live. Lily did not step aside, but offered that Voldemort kill her in exchange for Harry's life. Voldemort then killed Lily. Voldemort and Lily were the ones who negotiated the contract between them, and Lily was the one who paid for it with her life. Her sacrifice fueled the protection. No one else involved in the deal did any sacrificing. I don't think Snape and Voldemort had any sort of magical contract between them, and of the two, only Voldemort died, and that was as a result of reneging on his contract with Lily.

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow

Snape's request is what caused Voldemort to not outright kill Lily, as I understand it, but had nothing to do with the protective magic. I don't think Voldemort's intention to honor Snape's request had anything to do with the protection, because Voldemort did not honor the request, and the agreement that got honored wasn't the one either Snape or Voldemort wanted, but the one Lily offered.

So, if Severus hadn't asked for Lily's life, Voldemort would have actually stopped and talked to her? Why? IMO he'd have killed her immediately just like he did James and then pop the kid.

[ShadowSonic]

For sadism, maybe? If he really intended to honor Snape's request, he wouldn't have bothered talking to her at all and just knocked her out or something.

Seems like he only half-considered Snape's request.

[OldMotherCrow]

Originally Posted by snapes_witch

So, if Severus hadn't asked for Lily's life, Voldemort would have actually stopped and talked to her? Why? IMO he'd have killed her immediately just like he did James and then pop the kid.

That's what I think, too. Thought I had clearly stated that in my post: "Snape's request is what caused Voldemort to not outright kill Lily".

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

For sadism, maybe? If he really intended to honor Snape's request, he wouldn't have bothered talking to her at all and just knocked her out or something.

Seems like he only half-considered Snape's request.

Yeah, probably sadism. Voldemort may have let her live had she stepped aside, but as she didn't, I think she quickly ceased to be entertaining to him, and he seemed to feel that her being an inconvenience to him was the bigger issue. I also don't think Voldemort thinks much of his followers either, so even an easily filled request by one of them isn't going to get priority over inconvenience.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by purplehawk

Curmudgeonly Old Lady here. I don't believe Snape had anything to do with the charm Lily bestowed on Harry when she gave her life trying to save him. Snape's request was obviously on Voldemort's mind when he entered that bedroom, but that's as far as it went. The protection came from a loving mother pleading for her child's life, asking to be killed instead so that he might be spared. There's no Snape in that at all.

What could be the charm that allows Lily to bestow on Harry the ability to stop killing curses. It was such a wonder, a one of its kind even in the Wizarding World that Harry was called the BWL. No one had ever stopped the killing curse ever before. No kind of sacrifice could do it.

Lily stood in front of her baby, wanting to protect him somehow, just as James did downstairs. James's death did not protect Lily, and I think the situation at Godrics Hollow was somewhat similar to the situation between Harry and Peter in POA. Dumbledore called it magic of the deepest kind.

I think that magic was pure intent in an extremely charged atmosphere. Accidental magic occurs when small children are emotionally charged and I think the magic that happened at Godrics hollow was like that.

Voldemort came with the intention to spare Lily. That intention was because of Snape's request. Voldemort himself was extremely charged up emotionally because he thought he was going to remove the one obstacle to his immortality. Lily was emotionally charged because she was dealing with a betrayal of someone they thought a friend, the death of her husband and facing not only her own death but also the death of her beloved baby.

All those emotions exploded when Voldemort killed Lily and cast the AK on Harry. Voldemort was reduced to a spirit because two people wanted someone other than Voldemort to live and Voldemort started off by honoring Snape's request.

I think without Snape's request, Voldemort would have never asked Lily to step aside. That is the most important thing that happened in that room, because without Snape's request Voldemort would have killed Lily straight away, like he did James and then whatever Lily wished, it would have never translated into any kind of protection.

James did try and hold off Voldemort. He shouted to Lily asking her to take Harry and run. Yet that did not result in a protection for Lily, because no one asked Voldemort for James's life and Voldemort never agreed to spare James.

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow

Snape's request is what caused Voldemort to not outright kill Lily, as I understand it, but had nothing to do with the protective magic. I don't think Voldemort's intention to honor Snape's request had anything to do with the protection, because Voldemort did not honor the request, and the agreement that got honored wasn't the one either Snape or Voldemort wanted, but the one Lily offered.

But why would Voldemort want to spare Lily, a Muggleborn and an enemy? I think it was for Snape. That was the agreement Voldemort backed out when he started to honour Snape's request and then backed out. That ended up in giving Harry his protection imo.

I think the books state that the protection was magic from Lily's sacrifice.

Lilys sacrifice enabled the protection because of Snape's request. That's why James's sacrifice did not save Lily. what Lily did that night was that she never refused Voldemorts order to step aside, which I think would have cancelled the agreement with Snape. Had that happened, I think Harry would have died, because Lily refused to accept Snape's request of Voldemort for her life.

Had she stepped aside too, I think Harry would have died. But Lily simply stood there asking Voldemort to spare Harry, keeping Snape's request about which she knew nothing, alive. When she died she passed on that request of Snape to Harry, who received the protection Snape wanted for Lily and Lily wanted for Harry.

The protective magic that Lily invoked seems to be a known but obscure type of protection. Both Dumbledore and Voldemort knew that it is an old type of magic.

I believe it was a magic based on the basest and most powerful form of magic. Emotion and intent.

As I understand it, Snape requested that Voldemort spare Lily if Voldemort was able to kill her son, which is what caused Voldemort not to kill her outright, but Voldemort could have easily fulfilled Snape's request by incapacitating her.

If Voldemort had stunned her or incapacitated her, I think Harry would have died that night.

Instead Voldemort tried to get her to agree that if she stood aside and let him murder her son then he would let her live.

Let her live because of Snape's request imo.

Lily did not step aside, but offered that Voldemort kill her in exchange for Harry's life.

Snape asked for Lily; Lily asked for Harry. It was a kind of a sub lease imo.

Voldemort then killed Lily.

So Snape's request went to Harry, who Lily wanted to keep alive.

Voldemort and Lily were the ones who negotiated the contract between them, and Lily was the one who paid for it with her life.

The agreement was between Snape and Voldemort for Lily. Since Voldemort dis honored that agreement, it went to Lilys beneficiary, Harry.

Her sacrifice fueled the protection.

I think her death transferred the protection to her son.

[Sereena]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I think without Snape's request, Voldemort would have never asked Lily to step aside. That is the most important thing that happened in that room, because without Snape's request Voldemort would have killed Lily straight away, like he did James and then whatever Lily wished, it would have never translated into any kind of protection.

It's true that had Voldemort Stunned her or killed her right away Harry would have died. It's also true that had Lily acted differently, either by attempting to fight Voldemort like James did or by standing aside or running away, Harry would have died. It's not only Snape's actions which matter, which you seem to imply in your post. It's the actions of all three characters involved, including Voldemort himself who decided first to just ask her to step aside instead of forcing her, and then decided to kill her either way and thus enabling the magic to work. Of course Snape's request was important, that's rather obvious, IMO. But it's just one cog in the machinery, not the only important one.

[ShadowSonic]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

What could be the charm that allows Lily to bestow on Harry the ability to stop killing curses. It was such a wonder, a one of its kind even in the Wizarding World that Harry was called the BWL. No one had ever stopped the killing curse ever before. No kind of sacrifice could do it.

Statistically speaking, this had to have happened before. Dumbledore and Voldemort knew what kind of magic had been used to create the Protection and both identified it as "Ancient" which means this sort of thing has been happening since ancient times.

I think with Harry, it's not so much the wonder of the protection as it is that he is the most High Profile case. Situations like his (someone sacrificing themselves for another) are kind of common. It's just that in his case, it involved someone High Profile like Voldemort and ended the Major War happening. So it attracted more attention and more effort was put into Harry's case to scare off the Death Eaters.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by Sereena

It's true that had Voldemort Stunned her or killed her right away Harry would have died. It's also true that had Lily acted differently, either by attempting to fight Voldemort like James did or by standing aside or running away, Harry would have died. It's not only Snape's actions which matter, which you seem to imply in your post. It's the actions of all three characters involved, including Voldemort himself who decided first to just ask her to step aside instead of forcing her, and then decided to kill her either way and thus enabling the magic to work. Of course Snape's request was important, that's rather obvious, IMO. But it's just one cog in the machinery, not the only important one.

I agree all three of them had a role to play, but I believe that the two of the three had a role only because of Snape's request. That's why I feel his request was the important thing that night. Snape's request allowed Lilys death to mean something, something huge, something unheard of, which James's death did not.

I feel that without Snape's request, that night would have resulted in the death of a family because of the betrayal of someone they thought a friend. For me it was Snape's request that changed everything, because it gave Harry a powerful protection against Voldemort.

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

Statistically speaking, this had to have happened before. Dumbledore and Voldemort knew what kind of magic had been used to create the Protection and both identified it as "Ancient" which means this sort of thing has been happening since ancient times.

I think Ancient could also mean powerful acts that may or may not have happened in the far past for which no reason or method was known. Since no one had any recollection of such acts, they may have concluded this was forgotten magic from the ancient past.

I think with Harry, it's not so much the wonder of the protection as it is that he is the most High Profile case. Situations like his (someone sacrificing themselves for another) are kind of common. It's just that in his case, it involved someone High Profile like Voldemort and ended the Major War happening. So it attracted more attention and more effort was put into Harry's case to scare off the Death Eaters.

I think an AK was like shooting someone with a gun with instantaneous effect. Just like it would be a wonder if someone could take a gunshot to the chest or head and still be unharmed and alive , I think Harry's life was a wonder because he survived an AK that until then could not be protected against.

[ShadowSonic]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I think Ancient could also mean powerful acts that may or may not have happened in the far past for which no reason or method was known. Since no one had any recollection of such acts, they may have concluded this was forgotten magic from the ancient past.

Well, Dumbeldore and Volemort both knew. It's just that before, said Acts of Protection might've involved spells other than the Killing Curse or no one really knew exactly what happened since the evil wizard killed by the reflected spell just died instead of surviving like Voldemort did.

I think an AK was like shooting someone with a gun with instantaneous effect. Just like it would be a wonder if someone could take a gunshot to the chest or head and still be unharmed and alive , I think Harry's life was a wonder because he survived an AK that until then could not be protected against.

Actually, we see later that you can evade and block the AK spell with physical objects. I think when they say it can't be blocked they mean by purely magical means it can't be blocked.

[Sereena]

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods

I feel that without Snape's request, that night would have resulted in the death of a family because of the betrayal of someone they thought a friend. For me it was Snape's request that changed everything, because it gave Harry a powerful protection against Voldemort.

Sure, but it was still a request done out of selfishness, right? As Dumbledore himself pointed out when Snape said he'd only asked Voldemort for Lily's life. I don't disagree that Snape's actions were important that night, but I disagree with the implication that he was a hero in that situation in some way. Remember that Snape's actions also contributed to the family being targeted in the first place. So in my mind it's something like this: minion tells psycho about a child who might grow up to destroy him, psycho identifies child and targets him and his family, minion is unhappy because the mother of the family happens to be someone he loves so he asks for her life to be spared as psycho does not need her dead in order to fulfill his purpose. I don't really see anything heroic here, though I agree that Snape has done other heroic acts in the series.

[The_Green_Woods]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

Actually, we see later that you can evade and block the AK spell with physical objects. I think when they say it can't be blocked they mean by purely magical means it can't be blocked.

Yes but that's not what I meant. I meant getting hit with an AK and surviving. i don't think one can get hit with an AK and still survive, which when Harry did became a thing of wonder. It was something unheard of until then. IIRC the fake Moody in GoF says that Harry Potter was the only one to survive the AK.

Originally Posted by Sereena

Sure, but it was still a request done out of selfishness, right? As Dumbledore himself pointed out when Snape said he'd only asked Voldemort for Lily's life. I don't disagree that Snape's actions were important that night, but I disagree with the implication that he was a hero in that situation in some way. Remember that Snape's actions also contributed to the family being targeted in the first place. So in my mind it's something like this: minion tells psycho about a child who might grow up to destroy him, psycho identifies child and targets him and his family, minion is unhappy because the mother of the family happens to be someone he loves so he asks for her life to be spared as psycho does not need her dead in order to fulfill his purpose. I don't really see anything heroic here, though I agree that Snape has done other heroic acts in the series.

Am answering in the Snape thread.