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  #341  
Old April 7th, 2004, 10:20 am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupin_Lady
With Tonks though, she could be acting like she is a young chick. With the Legimancy, like I sadi, we haven't seen her around Dumbledore (or Snape) for that matter. And so what if she's in the Order, and fought at the MOM? She could be a double agent.

As for Madame Maxim, true, that she would be a bit obvious, but what if she were sort of an associate? She doesn't have to attend all the meetings or whatever, she just shows her loyalty by getting the giants to side with the DE's. She wouldn't have killed Hagrid, she would have given herself away.
As for being headmistress at Beuaxbatons, well we have no evidence that that school was any better than Durmstaung, and look at Karkaroff....
We haven't seen Tonks around Dumbledore or Snape, but we do know that she has been in meetings that one or both of them went to (unless I'm mistaken, we saw her in a meeting Snape attended). Whether that would allow them to expose her if she were a traitor, I'm not sure. For one thing, I doubt they use legilimency all that often on those they trust. But I do think they both tend to know when they are being lied to. I trust Tonks at the moment and will until she does something to make me change my mind.

As for Madam Maxime, she could conceivably have killed Hagrid or (if she wants to keep her cover) allowed him to be killed. It would have been easy to let Hagrid die and she could (truthfully) tell Dumbledore that he was killed by giants. While that might make him suspicious, it wouldn't blow her cover and it get's rid of one of Dumbledore's close allies. And I really can't see why a Death Eater or associate of the Death Eaters would help Hagrid with Grawp, so I don't think she is on Voldemort's side.


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  #342  
Old April 8th, 2004, 4:44 am
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The reason I don't like Tonks is that she could be anyone or anything. The fact that she can change her look at will freaks me out. She has been everything form a young child to an old woman. So in theory, she could be anyone.
Plus she's only been on the aurour/order scene for 4 years (including training). Guessing she was about 24, she could have had a few years in with the DE's.
Her family background is one bad one. I know that Sirius was a good Black, and his cousin (Tonk's mum) was ok, but they addmittedly were the black sheep (no pun intended) of that family. Had any of Tonk's other relatives got in her ear, she could be easily persuaded. She also has the same family structure as Tom Riddle; A witch mother, muggle father. I know this doesn't count for much, but it's played a role before. JKR has said herself that Tonks is one of her favourite characters, but it doesn't change my opinion, you can like the baddies (I like Bellatrix, despite her being evil, blah blah, blah. I just like her auror).

But it's mainly that she could be ANYONE and we would never know. As for her been in those meetings that Lanc mentioned, maybe she was in those meetings, but it's not like Snape was looking her right in the eyes and concentrate. I get the impression that he would sit rather quiet and avoid eye contact. Don't mistake Legimancy with mind reading. It takes eye contact and concentration.


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  #343  
Old April 8th, 2004, 7:09 am
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Can Tonks really be anyone? We know that she can change her appearance but can
she change from a woman into a little girl??? I think she can only change her hair, her
nose...etc, but not the whole of her
I don't know... But as far as I know, she had nothing wrong, her family background even showed that she wasn't th same as the other Blacks...(her name wasn't shown on the family tree)
I doubt she was a bad people


  #344  
Old April 8th, 2004, 6:26 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jordmundt6
he is on the side of good and did immediately contact Dumbledore about the brother wand that Harry chose and does have professional scruples that we saw hinted at in GoF.
I always thought that was professional interest as opposed to scruples but of course you could be right.

Lupin Lady you raised a valid point about Tonks, the fact that she can physically change into anyone is a bit unnerving although I'm sure that its not meant to be. I don't think that Tonks is a DE, but I do think that she is impressionable and someone with a stronger personality could sway her either way.


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  #345  
Old April 8th, 2004, 6:47 pm
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Okay, of the above ideas:
Fudge: Right now, that's where my loyalties lie. The article in the North Tower at mugglenet.com has me fully convinced until further evidence comes out, especially after Rowling said some of the fan sites have got it.
Tonks: One of my favorite characters. She's so down-to-earth and easy-going (a klutz, in fact), she's great with Hermione and Ginny, and she's just plain cool. I love the line about her hair making her look "peaky", partially because it's not a term I'd ever heard of before. I was Tonks for Halloween--with glow-in-the-dark purple hair. (My hair is short and spiky, so it was perfect.) She likes to transform her nose for dinnertime entertainment and change her hair according to whim, but I can't see her doubling as a DE. I know you said you didn't really think she was Lestrange, but she can't be, anyway--Lestrange was locked up in Azkaban while Tonks was in school.
About the Black family tree--Since all the pure-bloods are related somewhere anyway, wouldn't that make half the Order into black sheep? I would really hate to be under suspicion purely due to family ties.
Maxime--No, I don't think so. The giants may traditionally be on the dark side, but I think Voldemort has too much pure-blood pride to allow a half-giant--female, at that (yes, I know Lestrange is female)--into the DEs. Just because Karkaroff is a former DE and his school is known for the Dark Arts does not mean we can assume every other school has similar curriculum or every other headmaster is under suspicion. Madame Maxime has never shown anything but utter decorum and and trustworthiness, except when she was offended by Hagrid.


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  #346  
Old April 8th, 2004, 6:50 pm
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Tonks is a valuable asset for the Order, due to her metarmorphmagus status, just like she would be to the Death Eaters, but I don't think they know she's one, so I don't think she'll be singled out and forced to become a Death Eater, and I don't think she's one now either. It's too simple to have a metamorphmagi for a Death Eater.

Anyway, since the thread is called "The Three Missing Death Eaters", and Tonks definately can't be one of those, since she's way too young, maybe we should put her aside for the moment.

The Death Eater who left Voldemort for ever has to be a person who isn't a Death Eater now, but was one before. I know Fudge technically has the necessary qualifications, but since he's practically been working for Voldemort (through denying him etc.) during the whole OotP, I can't really see how he's left Voldemort forever, if he once was a Death Eater. So I can't really see him as that person.


  #347  
Old April 8th, 2004, 6:55 pm
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In his eyes, he wasn't working for Voldemort; he was denying the whole thing out of cowardice. It couldn't be true because he didn't want it to be true, and he would go to any lengths to make it not true in his little world. In his position, however, the way things worked in his little world meant that everyone else lived in it, too. I'm afraid my mind is made up until it's proven otherwise


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  #348  
Old April 8th, 2004, 7:14 pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pegasus
In his eyes, he wasn't working for Voldemort; he was denying the whole thing out of cowardice. It couldn't be true because he didn't want it to be true, and he would go to any lengths to make it not true in his little world. In his position, however, the way things worked in his little world meant that everyone else lived in it, too. I'm afraid my mind is made up until it's proven otherwise
maybe thats what he wants us to think......


Fudge is either the most blatent example of poor leadership or an extremely good liar (or actually unwitting pawn). Course he could be an example of all three but I don't think thats relevant in this situation.

Of the one who has left forever or the ones that Voldie-thing was talking about cannot be Tonks as Voldemort referred to the three as being male in particular. Thought...the one who was too cowardly to return could be wormtail though....I don't think that he was standing in the circle, and he was "punished" by Voldemort by having to cut off his hand for his rebirth (yes I know he called it reward) and then was given a silver coloured hand (could this hand be evil? a thing of Voldemort's to keep tabs on wormail in his absence?)


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  #349  
Old April 8th, 2004, 7:26 pm
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Wormtail doesn't make any sense. For one thing, he's there; for another, Voldemort talks at length about Wormtail in a completely different context. Wormtail returned before anyone else--he alone sought him when he was in hiding and nursed him along, as Voldemort already pointed out, even though he called it "clumsy care."
Karkaroff, however, fled in cowardice at the call of the Dark Mark--we find this out almost immediately in the book.


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  #350  
Old April 8th, 2004, 7:36 pm
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maybe but how many times did he tell Wormtail that he was a coward???


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  #351  
Old April 8th, 2004, 7:52 pm
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Voldemort simply likes the term. Really, on some levels, all the DEs are cowards (except perhaps Bellatrix, etc.)--but in this instance, it seems pretty obvious that Rowling was talking about Karkaroff. I really think it is a given, like how Harry got the Marauder's Map back after Book 4, and Rowling wasn't trying to be sneaky. In my opinion, the only thing she's expecting to surprise us with is the one who left him forever.


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  #352  
Old April 8th, 2004, 7:57 pm
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I don't disagree with you actually on wormtail, I was just throwing out a random point for discussion. I think that the one who left him forever and the most faithful servents are the two that are going to catch people out but having said that although Karkaroff ran off as fast as his legs could carry him I don't think that its 100% cut and dry that he is the coward either.


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  #353  
Old April 8th, 2004, 8:31 pm
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I'm not a proponent of any of the theories against Crouch, Jr. being the most faithful Death Eater inside the school--that was handed right into our laps.


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  #354  
Old April 8th, 2004, 8:43 pm
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don't get me started on that one agian


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  #355  
Old April 8th, 2004, 8:53 pm
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Are you speaking of false veritaserum or of Rowling being "more subtle than that"? I don't agree with either.


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  #356  
Old April 8th, 2004, 9:05 pm
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My quibble is that its never actually proven definitively that Crouch was a death eater. At his hearing we don't get proof of what he is supposed to have done nor see the dark mark at anytime so it can't be said that he has one or not. After azkaban we still don't see the mark and the only confession we have from him is under veritaserum......and at that point he doesn't call himself a deatheater either.

I'm not saying that he is on or that he's not one, merely that we have no actual proof either way


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  #357  
Old April 8th, 2004, 9:14 pm
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Okay...I don't see any reason why we have to see his Death Mark to know that Voldemort referred to him as his most faithful servant, and Crouch then said that he was his most faithful servant...but I'll let it go, since we'll never convince each other. (I may just have to do some digging through the two scenes and see what I can throw at you, though...)


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  #358  
Old April 8th, 2004, 9:18 pm
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its one of those ones where its best to agree to disagree.....to me its all a little too neat to fit together but thats just my view!!!


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  #359  
Old June 5th, 2004, 7:09 am
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Interesting thread.


I think that the biggest problem with Snape being the "one who is lost forever" is that he goes back to Voldemort. The most important part about that is that he was not then tortured to death. Snape is also on friendly terms with many of the Death Eaters such as Malory. Why would this known Death Eaters continue to interact and be friendly with someone who betrayed them?


  #360  
Old June 6th, 2004, 8:25 pm
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I have a few thoughts on "The Three".

One has left me forever... he will be killed"
This line may indicate a traitor to Voldemort, or it could be someone sent on a mission from which he will never return. I think this could be Crouch Jr., if only because he was promptly killed by the Dementor when discovered. As we know, the Dementors were immediately revealed as joining the Dark Lord's cause. I think Voldemort ordered "The Kiss" on Crouch Jr. to keep Dumbledore from interrogating him (and finding out about Voldemort's plans and location).

The "coward" could be Karkaroff or Snape or Ludovic Bagman. I think Karkaroff is most likely.

The "faithful servant" could be placed on Snape or Bagman. Even though Crouch Jr. claims to be "his most faithful servant", this phrase is uttered by almost every Death Eater when confronted about Voldemort (including Bellatrix in the MoM fight with Harry).
Bagman can't possibly be as dense as he's made out to be. He was brought up on charges once for passing information to the Death Eaters, but joked his way out of it. That scene just seems too coincidental. Remember Winky's comment that Bagman was a "bad, bad man". He was also actively trying to help Harry win the TriWizard Tournament.
Snape may not even be considered a Death Eater by Voldemort (was he ever CONFIRMED as a former Death Eater?)... or a traitor... or he could be thought of as his most loyal servant. We heard the partial phrase to Quirrel in the first movie where Snape challenged him on his loyalties. Was Quirrel wavering in his decision to be Voldemort's host? Was Snape forcing him to stick to deal? Another curious thought is about Crouch Jr. and the Polyjuice Potion. We know Hermione is brilliant, and can manage anything, but that potion seemed complex and needed a month to brew. Was Snape helping Crouch Jr. with the potion, which made the entire Moody transformation and plan possible?


 
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