Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

[MinervasCat]

Dumbledore "deserted" his post, too, under duress. If he'd gotten killed before he could return, or something else kept him from returning, does that mean he wouldn't have gotten his portrait in the Headmaster's office?

Severus probably could have stayed as Headmaster if he'd wanted to hurt McGonagall, Flitwick, and the others chasing him. He could have gotten LV followers and replaced the entire staff in the first place, making sure there was no dissension in the ranks. But, he was one of the "good guys," and he was there to help protect the students as best he could without giving himself away. He knew the other teachers would do the same thing under the Carrows as they did under Umbridge. During the encounter with McGonagall and Co. he used only defensive spells, then left rather than having to take harsher action. He never used an offensive spell during that entire duel, just as he never used anything other than defensive spells on Harry during The Flight of the Prince. So, I don't see his "deserting" his post under those circumstances that much different than Dumbledore leaving to keep from "going quietly" to Azkaban.

[MsJPotter]

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

Here is what Harry Potter says on the question of whether Severus Snape was or was not Headmaster during the year in which he functioned formally in that capacity:

"Albus Severus... you were named for two headmasters of Hogwarts. One of them was a Slytherin and he was probably the bravest man I ever knew."

So according to Harry, his child is named for two headmasters. One of those headmasters is Severus Snape.

Well he had to give the poor kid some reason why he stuck him with that name. It doesn't change the reality that the school didn't recognise him as Headmaster IMO, and it don't change the fact that Harry went to bat for Snape, otherwise there never would've been a portrait of Snape in the Headmaster's office. That fact still remains that Snape wasn't appointed by any kind of legal standard, so he wasn't Headmaster IMO

[Pearl_Took]

Aww, the Snape thread. Just a few months more ...

Originally Posted by MsJPotter

Well he had to give the poor kid some reason why he stuck him with that name.

JKR had her reasons for wanting Harry to name his son after both Dumbledore and Snape, which she makes clear in the text:

"Albus Severus Potter, you were named after two headmasters of Hogwarts. One of them was a Slytherin and he was probably the bravest man I ever knew."

That's author intent right there, and a neat, cathartic way of wrapping up a redemptive character arc. Clever Jo!

It doesn't change the reality that the school didn't recognise him as Headmaster IMO,

JKR says in one of her post-DH interviews that a portrait of Snape doesn't appear because he abandoned his post before dying or officially retiring. That seems clear enough. Hogwarts is a building with magical properties, not a sentient being and the castle therefore couldn't be expected to 'know' that Snape was actually working for Dumbledore, not Voldemort.

None of that changes the reality that Harry recognised the truth about Snape after his death, i.e. that he had risked his life in the service of Dumbledore and the Order, and therefore wanted to honour Snape in some way.

It all made sense to me when I read DH for the first time. And Harry is a generous person. Being a Gryffindor, he prizes courage highly, and has plenty of it himself (and how!) so is able to give generous tribute to Snape's particular brand of courage.

It is amusing to speculate what Snape might have thought of Harry naming his son after him - - but that is outside the remit of canon as we have been given it.

and it doesn't change the fact that Harry went to bat for Snape, otherwise there never would've been a portrait of Snape in the Headmaster's office.

Harry 'went to bat for Snape'? But there isn't a portrait of Snape in the Headmaster's office. Have I missed something here? I'm not on Pottemore ... is this new 'canon' that has been added? (I mean, I've read some great fanfics on this very subject but it's not actually Rowling's canon, is it?)

That fact still remains that Snape wasn't appointed by any kind of legal standard, so he wasn't Headmaster IMO

That is true, since to all extents and purposes he was a Death Eater. That was the part he was playing. As I said, Hogwarts is not a sentient being, so had no way of 'knowing' this.

[TreacleTartlet]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

So where did he get his apparent dislike of Muggles? It's unlikely that it came from his mother - she had married a Muggle which would indicate she harbored no bigotry toward them. If her wizarding relatives hated Muggles, they probably didn't have much contact with the Snape family. I think Severus began thinking "them" and "us" due to his own experience. His Muggle father was an abusive man and didn't like magic. Since he was alone in the park before he met Lily, it was probable that he was shunned by his Muggle schoolmates as well and possibly persecuted for being different.

Petunia evidently knows him by reputation. 'You're that Snape boy!' (DH, The Prince's Tale). As Petunia had never met him before, it seems to me that she probably heard about him from other children. She also she knows where he lives as she goes on... 'They live down Spinner's End by the river,' she told Lily, and it was evident from her tone that she considered the address a poor recommendation.

So I think Severus probably stood out as different to the Muggle children, for them to talk about him.

"Eating" death seems to symbolize overcoming death, not causing it. JKR's original name for LV's cohorts was to have been Knights of Walpurgis. Walpurgis is a festival, exactly six month's before All Hallow's Eve, that celebrates Spring, which is the renewal of life. I think LV's naming his followers Death Eaters was supposed to have somewhat religious connotations about his own quest for eternal life.

Ah...this takes me back to the discussions in the old days.

And Umbridge knew the password to DD's office too (Fizzing Whizbee.) She takes Harry to DD just before Fudge tries to arrest him and DD flees the school. Right after that, the school does not allow her entrance to the Headmaster's office, password or no password.

When DD sends Harry to his office after Sirius is killed, Phineas says:

As Snape did inhabit the Headmaster's office for a year,it seems to me that the office must have recognised him as the rightful Head, or it would have barred him password or no password as it did Umbridge.

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

But there isn't a portrait of Snape in the Headmaster's office. Have I missed something here? I'm not on Pottemore ... is this new 'canon' that has been added?

Pearl, it's from an interview in 2007.

JK Rowling Web Chat, 30th July 2007 Laura Trego: Was the absence of snapes portrait in the headmasters office in the last scene innocent or deliberate J.K. Rowling: It was deliberate. Snape had effectively abandoned his post before dying, so he had not merited inclusion in these august circles. J.K. Rowling: However, I like to think that Harry would be instrumental in ensuring that Snape’s portrait would appear there in due course

Here's a question. I was wondering did living and working at Hogwarts affect and/or serve to affirm Snape's seeming inability to let go of the past?

[iluvseverus]

Regarding the Snape was/wasn't Headmaster theory, I'd like to add:
Firstly, Snape had complete access to the Headmaster's office. It didn't seal up like it did for Umbridge, so we have to assume that the castle did accept him as HM.
Secondly, the portraits helped him and did his bidding. We know that Phineas Nigellus was spying for him. The portraits are 'duty bound to serve the currrent Headmaster' (sorry, can't find the exact quote), so it seems unlikely that the portraits, even Phineas, would aid him if he weren't Headmaster.
I haven't been through the 2 pages of posts above, so I apologise if these points have been mentioned already.

Sigh..posting on the Snape thread..makes me feel so nostalgic. I havn't posted in quite a while, but I remember the quibbling, the charged arguments, the moderators having to intervene
RIP Chamber of Secrets! You'll be missed sorely.

.

[ignisia]

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

Aww, the Snape thread. Just a few months more ...

Ah, the memories.

I agree with the points iluvseverus and TT have brought up regarding Snape as headmaster. I would also like to suggest that if the castle is somewhat sentient and is able to "know" persons and their intentions, it may have made the decision itself. I believe Umbridge got to the headmaster position through entirely legal means (by which I mean Fudge created laws that let her exercise such power) and yet her intentions were to harm the students, so the castle rejected her. Snape was a long-standing and long-trusted member of faculty, had protected students before, and promised sincerely to do it again-- legal or not, the castle may have seen him as worthier than Umbridge. Just a theory, since I'm really not sure what the castle is, it's so full of magic.

Originally Posted by TT

Here's a question. I was wondering did living and working at Hogwarts affect and/or serve to affirm Snape's seeming inability to let go of the past?

Hmm...well, I think seeing Harry walking down the same halls and the same grounds as James once did probably helped heighten the comparison. Also, Severus being under DD's employ gave the headmaster more opportunities to discuss the previous/impending war and the promises Snape made to him. So I'd say it did help keep Severus' mind on the past, but the past could inspire in him both good and bad.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet

And we see Phineas Nigellus reporting directly to Snape about the whereabouts of Harry, addressing him as Headmaster. Actually Phineas may have been happier serving a Slytherin Head than a Gryffindor one.

I would hope that a grown man and Headmaster would have grown up and gotten a grip when it came to school Houses. If his portrait had that childish attitude, it was quite pathetic behaviour, IMO.

[quote]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

When Harry meets Hagrid on his 11th birthday (1991) Hagrid says that LV began recruiting followers 20 years previous (1971) and it's not clear when he actually began attacking Muggles (and wizardkind for that matter.)

Clearly from canon, he had been carrying out attacks for some time by Snape's fifth year. He was not called "You-Know-Who" for nothing. There was a reason why people feared to speak his name.

Since he was alone in the park before he met Lily, it was probable that he was shunned by his Muggle schoolmates as well and possibly persecuted for being different.

IMO, this is speculation.

Harry blew his aunt up so that she floated up into the air; if the magic had suddenly ceased, she could have plummeted to her death. Older Harry did not Stun Stan Shunpike for exactly that reason.

From the living room ceiling? I very much doubt that counts as plummeting, or that it would have killed her.

Harry did not stun Stan because he did not want to be responsible for the death of someone he considered innocent - not even in self-defence. That's just the kind of person he was.

What would Severus had seen? Even less than Harry, I suspect. At the time that Severus graduated, DD was about 94 years old - not as spry as when he was younger, even for a wizard. Would LV have noised it about that he was afraid of DD? His propaganda would have been quite the contrary, I think.

And yet, it was commonly said that Voldemort feared Dumbledore.

If Severus viewed DD as being more powerful, I think he would have joined the good side. Since he did not, it is very probable Severus believed Dark magic and Dark wizards were more powerful and so his first impression about the vanquisher in the prophecy may well have been that it had to be a Dark wizard.

IMO, that shows Snape's values and priorities right there. That cruelty and malice are always more powerful. Rather reminds me of Dumbledore's discussion with Voldemort when he applied for the job. IMO, there is a certain kind of character who considers Dark Magic better, and they're generally people to avoid at all costs, IMO.

But let's say Snape's first impressions were that "the one" would be a baby, on the "good" side and whose parents were members of the Order (though I think that would have put the Potters at the top of the list of candidates for LV to go after and I don't think Snape would have passed on the prophcy if he thought it would endanger Lily - which is an agrument for the fact that he was not thinking that way.)

Of course Snape wouldn't have passed on the prophecy if he believed it would have endangered Lily. That's the whole point of his decision to change sides. It was fine to endanger innocent victims, just not Lily. It was fine to cause grief to other people, just not to Severus Snape.

I keep asking this question. What difference does it make who he though the prophecy referred to? He knew it would get someone killed and he did not care. Contrary to what Snape believed, it did not just become wrong when Lily was targetted. It was wrong, it was callous, and it does not matter who he thought the victim would be.

What if Snape had become fed up with LV and his DE's? (He switches side awfully fast when DD asks him to.) The prophecy also said ". . . the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches . . . " The part that Severus had does not say the Dark Lord might be able to vanquish the vanquisher. What if he gave LV the prophecy in order to destroy him? And that is actually what happened.

According to Dumbledore in OotP and HBP, the unnamed spy/Snape hurried to tell Voldemort because it concerned his master most deeply. Snape had no way of knowing that Voldemort would weaken himself by going after the target.

"Eating" death seems to symbolize overcoming death, not causing it. JKR's original name for LV's cohorts was to have been Knights of Walpurgis. Walpurgis is a festival, exactly six month's before All Hallow's Eve, that celebrates Spring, which is the renewal of life. I think LV's naming his followers Death Eaters was supposed to have somewhat religious connotations about his own quest for eternal life.

IMO, the DEs were not some religious organisation, nor did anyone believe they were. Everyone knew them for what they were - a group of murderous bigots. There is nothing renewing or life-affirming about the DEs, nothing good or positive about them.


[quote]

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

Severus probably could have stayed as Headmaster if he'd wanted to hurt McGonagall, Flitwick, and the others chasing him. He could have gotten LV followers and replaced the entire staff in the first place, making sure there was no dissension in the ranks.

IMO, Voldemort did not want that. If he'd wanted that, he could have done it easily, ordered Snape to lead a merry crew of thugs at Hogwarts. However, Voldemort was the one really in charge that year, no matter what titles he gave to others - Minister for Magic, Headmaster of Hogwarts. IMO, Voldemort wanted to keep those who had been close to Dumbledore under the eye of his lieutenant rather than at large stirring rebellion.


[quote]

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

That's author intent right there, and a neat, cathartic way of wrapping up a redemptive character arc. Clever Jo!

There is only redemption if Snape's crimes and flaws are his own doing and his own responsibility, completely and utterly. There is no redemption arc is Snape's crimes are minimised, if his mistakes are other people's fault. That is my problem with discussion of a so-called redemption arc.

[MinervasCat]

Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet

Here's a question. I was wondering did living and working at Hogwarts affect and/or serve to affirm Snape's seeming inability to let go of the past?

Dumbledore was very emphatic, right after Lily was killed, that Voldemort wasn't dead. He made sure that Severus understood that and made protecting Harry from LV's resurgence a reason for going on. I don't know how anyone could avoid living partly in the past knowing what lay ahead.

IMO, the years before Harry arrived were spent by DD and Severus in training and honing skills they knew would be needed. Severus may have been decent at Occlumency, but, at 20-21, I doubt he was a match for LV. I think he spent a good bit of time working on that and his Legilimency skills with Dumbledore, and on learning more about the Dark Arts and how to defend against them. I'm not saying he didn't have some time off, but I do think that most of his school breaks were spent on perfecting the necessary skills in preparation for Voldemort's return.

Being surrounded by the past and living with all of those memories practically every day must have had an effect. I do think it made letting go and moving on very difficult, if not almost impossible. Everywhere Severus turned there was something to remind him of Lily and what had happened between them, both good and bad. There had to be reminders of the bullying he had endured, as well. And, being Head of Slytherin House, he had to revisit the place where he'd made many of his worst decisions. How does one move on with that?

I wonder if Severus may have exiled himself to the dungeons and considered them "his" Azkaban, his own prison where he was serving a life sentence for the wrongs he'd done, especially in being a part of Lily's death.

[yorkiedoodle]

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

Being surrounded by the past and living with all of those memories practically every day must have had an effect. I do think it made letting go and moving on very difficult, if not almost impossible. Everywhere Severus turned there was something to remind him of Lily and what had happened between them, both good and bad. There had to be reminders of the bullying he had endured, as well. And, being Head of Slytherin House, he had to revisit the place where he'd made many of his worst decisions. How does one move on with that?

I wonder if Severus may have exiled himself to the dungeons and considered them "his" Azkaban, his own prison where he was serving a life sentence for the wrongs he'd done, especially in being a part of Lily's death.

I agree that being around all those reminders of Lily must have made it very difficult to move on in his life. But I don't think he'd have managed to put it behind him if he'd moved away and done something else. At Hogwarts his life had structure and I think he needed that - and if they were, as MinervasCat suggests, training for the return of Voldemort then his life had purpose.

[LyraLovegood]

Originally Posted by MinervasCat

...
I don't think, if a group of people are in danger, it would be unusual for someone to think of their loved one first and that would be their key focus. Even more so for someone as withdrawn as Severus, who doesn't have a lot of concern for other peoples' feelings through most of the books. Lily was his primary concern. We know he had a pretty stormy history with James, and it doesn't strike me as odd that he wouldn't give a tinker's damn about him. Not having been very loved as a child himself, Harry wouldn't have garnered much thought either. But, DD took care of that and Severus, himself, seemed ashamed that he'd not considered Lily's loved ones.
...

I don't think Lily was his primary concern. If Lily were his primary concern, he would have considered her point of view, not just what she meant to him. It seems to me that Snape's primary concern was always Snape. I agree with what MsJPotter said several pages ago: Snape wanted what he wanted. Snape wanted Lily, and Snape wanted power.

I don't think Snape wanted what was best for Lily, either. I think Snape wanted Lily for selfish reasons. She was pretty, she was magical, she was his first love... It seems to me Lily became an object Snape wanted to obtain, possess, and control. That's why, IMO, he became so angry when James Potter began preening in front of her and showing off his Quidditch skills: it diverted Lily's attention from Severus Snape.

I think Power was more important to Snape than Lily. If Lily had been his primary concern, would he not have realized that the Slytherin view of Muggleborns was hurtful to her and potentially dangerous? If Lily's best interests were Snape's primary concern, would he not have listened to her concerns about Avery and Mulciber? If his love for Lily were the kind of love that places the beloved's welfare above one's own desires...be they for power, for acceptance, for the Dark Arts, or for inclusion in the School House of Slytherin or the exclusive club of Death Eaters, I think he would have started making different choices when he was eleven years old.

If he loved Lily with "agape love" as the Greeks called it:
He would have understood Lily's love for her sister Petunia and nurtured it instead of undermining it.
He would have loved Lily's parents, her sister, for her sake, and later loved Harry and been at least cordial to James and Sirius and Remus, for her sake and later in her memory.
He would have been Sorted into another House, because Lily could never have been Sorted into Slytherin. Salazar Slytherin didn't even want Muggleborns in the school, much less in his House.
He would have picked friends in whatever House he was in who admired Lily for her magical ability, be it in Charms or in Potions or what-have-you, rather than friends who would despise her and use that foul epithet "mudblood" for her and everyone of her birth.
If Snape had loved Lily in any but a selfish, possessing way, I think he would have listened to her warnings about Avery and Mulciber's actions being evil.
If Snape had loved Lily in an admirable way, in my view, he would never have even considered being a Death Eater. If he had loved her for who she really was, instead of who he wanted her to be, I think he would have realized that his goal of being a powerful dark wizard would be repulsive to her, not impressive.
If Snape's primary concern had been for Lily and Lily's welfare when he went to Dumbledore to ask him to protect her, he wouldn't have needed Dumbledore to point out that Lily's family--her husband and her son--should be protected too. He would have seen that grief over her family would have been worse for her than whatever he had endured at Spinners End in the house of his parents had been for him IMO. He would have seen that losing your family is worse than being taunted for greasy hair or flappy clothes. He would have seen that traipsing about the countryside killing Muggles for sport was worse than hanging other wizarding students upside down on the grounds of Hogwarts.

This is all my opinion, the way I view and interpret Snape--his whole life, at least up to the moment Lily died.

Afterwords--well, I think it's debatable that he served Dumbledore and worked to defeat Voldemort when (if) he returned for altruistic reasons. Maybe he wanted to defeat Voldemort because he realized that he was wrong to have joined up with him in the first place.

Or maybe he wanted to defeat Voldemort at his second coming because he personally felt wronged by the way Voldemort killed Lily after Snape had asked him to spare her. I don't see where anything in canon directly contradicts the possible interpretation that Snape's primary motive was vengeance, because he LOST what he loved most.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by MsJPotter

Dumbledore gave him the password didn't he? After all Harry got into the office and he wasn't the Headmaster.

I got the impression that it was Snape who changed the password to "Dumbledore" once the battle at Hogwarts commenced (none of the DEs would have thought Snape would choose such a password after all).

Although technically Snape wasn't appointed by the Board, I think that Dumbledore, being the last properly appointed headmaster, arranged for his own replacement (Snape) with enchantments on the office and with the portraits cued in on his wishes...they could, after all, see Snape working with D's portrait to help the trio as they worked against Voldemort. So in that regard, Snape was a true headmaster working (however limited by circumstance) for the good of Hogwarts and its students.

[Pearl_Took]

Originally Posted by FurryDice

There is only redemption if Snape's crimes and flaws are his own doing and his own responsibility, completely and utterly. There is no redemption arc is Snape's crimes are minimised, if his mistakes are other people's fault.

In all my years of posting on CoS, I've never minimised Snape's crimes, sins and mistakes. Of course joining the DEs was his fault, as was his taking the Prophecy to Voldemort which put Lily and her family in such danger. He's not a nice man ... but nice is not the same thing as 'not capable of greatness, despite some stonking great character flaws.'

That is my problem with discussion of a so-called redemption arc.

Here's Jo on the subject: "I knew from the beginning what Snape was. Do I think he's a hero? To a point, I do, but he's not an unequivocally good character. Snape is a complicated man. He's bitter. He's ... spiteful. He's a bully. All these things are still true of Snape, even at the end of this book. But was he brave? Yes, immensely. Was he capable of love? Very definitely. So he's-- he's a very-- he was a flawed human being, like all of us. Harry forgives him--- as we know, from the epilogue, Harry-- Harry really sees the good in Snape ultimately. I wanted there to be redemption and I wanted there to be forgiveness. And Harry forgives, even knowing that until the end Snape loathed him unjustifiably. It's totally, totally unfair that he loathes him so much but anyway." 29 July, 2007

So there we have it. Snape = flawed, bitter, capable of hanging onto a grudge (and how) and yet also capable of great love and determination to do the right thing (at last), despite the seething cauldron of love and hate within him. Harry sees the good in Snape, ultimately. As Jo said, and as I saw on the page.

Originally Posted by LyraLovegood

Snape wanted Lily, and Snape wanted power.

As a nine year old kid, he was obviously hungry for friendship with Lily. At nine years old, I hardly think he desired power. Jo's portrait of him is of an obviously lonely child who looks odd and seems very isolated. He is clearly desperate for friendship with another magical child. As a kid, I think he wanted acceptance. We know very little about his relationship with his mother, but clearly his relationship with his father was far from happy.

It also seems the case that someone has taught the young Snape that Slytherin is the best House and that Gryffindor is 'all brawn and no brain'. Where did he get that attitude from? Kids aren't born prejudiced. And the young Snape's view that Slytherin equals the best and Gryffindor equals a loser house is the exact reverse image of the young James Potter, who is proud of Gryffindor values (nothing wrong with that of course) but also seems to regard all Slytherins as potential Dark Lords in the making. Later on, the desire for great magical power certainly seems to have become a snare and a temptation for the teenage Snape - otherwise he wouldn't have been so drawn to the DEs.

I don't think Snape wanted what was best for Lily, either. I think Snape wanted Lily for selfish reasons. She was pretty, she was magical, she was his first love... It seems to me Lily became an object Snape wanted to obtain, possess, and control. That's why, IMO, he became so angry when James Potter began preening in front of her and showing off his Quidditch skills: it diverted Lily's attention from Severus Snape.

I see this a bit differently. Snape is certainly rather possessive towards Lily and I think that comes partly from a massive insecurity - who else ever accepted Snape the way that Lily obviously did? As for wanting to control her, he leaves her well alone after she tells him to get out of her life forever.

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I got the impression that it was Snape who changed the password to "Dumbledore" once the battle at Hogwarts commenced (none of the DEs would have thought Snape would choose such a password after all).

Good point.

... So in that regard, Snape was a true headmaster working (however limited by circumstance) for the good of Hogwarts and its students.

Yes, I agree.


***


Of one thing Harry is left in no doubt - that Snape really had loved his mother. He taunts Voldemort with this as they duel for the final time - Harry wanted to let Voldemort know that his so-called right hand man had been nothing of the kind.

After all, Harry sees the unvarnished truth in Snape's memories - memories that don't always paint Snape in a very flattering light, it's not as if Snape has doctored them in any way. Even as he is dying, he seems to have enough control to release the memories that will tell Harry everything he needs to know. And he hides nothing from Harry. Which is why I find his death so tragic and moving. After hiding the truth from 'Potter's son' so effectively all his life, in his dying moments he has absolutely nothing left to lose. Harry's astonishment and compassion reflected my own.

Treacle posed a good question, now I have a new one (which might avoid going over the same ground over and over before we say farewell to this excellent thread forever ):

- What DID make Harry approach the dying Snape, do you think? Harry-centric question, but obviously Snape-related.

[Fawkesfan1]

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

In all my years of posting on CoS, I've never minimised Snape's crimes, sins and mistakes. Of course joining the DEs was his fault, as was his taking the Prophecy to Voldemort which put Lily and her family in such danger. He's not a nice man ... but nice is not the same thing as 'not capable of greatness, despite some stonking great character flaws.'



Here's Jo on the subject: "I knew from the beginning what Snape was. Do I think he's a hero? To a point, I do, but he's not an unequivocally good character. Snape is a complicated man. He's bitter. He's ... spiteful. He's a bully. All these things are still true of Snape, even at the end of this book. But was he brave? Yes, immensely. Was he capable of love? Very definitely. So he's-- he's a very-- he was a flawed human being, like all of us. Harry forgives him--- as we know, from the epilogue, Harry-- Harry really sees the good in Snape ultimately. I wanted there to be redemption and I wanted there to be forgiveness. And Harry forgives, even knowing that until the end Snape loathed him unjustifiably. It's totally, totally unfair that he loathes him so much but anyway." 29 July, 2007

So there we have it. Snape = flawed, bitter, capable of hanging onto a grudge (and how) and yet also capable of great love and determination to do the right thing (at last), despite the seething cauldron of love and hate within him. Harry sees the good in Snape, ultimately. As Jo said, and as I saw on the page.



As a nine year old kid, he was obviously hungry for friendship with Lily. At nine years old, I hardly think he desired power. Jo's portrait of him is of an obviously lonely child who looks odd and seems very isolated. He is clearly desperate for friendship with another magical child. As a kid, I think he wanted acceptance. We know very little about his relationship with his mother, but clearly his relationship with his father was far from happy.

It also seems the case that someone has taught the young Snape that Slytherin is the best House and that Gryffindor is 'all brawn and no brain'. Where did he get that attitude from? Kids aren't born prejudiced. And the young Snape's view that Slytherin equals the best and Gryffindor equals a loser house is the exact reverse image of the young James Potter, who is proud of Gryffindor values (nothing wrong with that of course) but also seems to regard all Slytherins as potential Dark Lords in the making. Later on, the desire for great magical power certainly seems to have become a snare and a temptation for the teenage Snape - otherwise he wouldn't have been so drawn to the DEs.



I see this a bit differently. Snape is certainly rather possessive towards Lily and I think that comes partly from a massive insecurity - who else ever accepted Snape the way that Lily obviously did? As for wanting to control her, he leaves her well alone after she tells him to get out of her life forever.



Good point.



Yes, I agree.


***


Of one thing Harry is left in no doubt - that Snape really had loved his mother. He taunts Voldemort with this as they duel for the final time - Harry wanted to let Voldemort know that his so-called right hand man had been nothing of the kind.

After all, Harry sees the unvarnished truth in Snape's memories - memories that don't always paint Snape in a very flattering light, it's not as if Snape has doctored them in any way. Even as he is dying, he seems to have enough control to release the memories that will tell Harry everything he needs to know. And he hides nothing from Harry. Which is why I find his death so tragic and moving. After hiding the truth from 'Potter's son' so effectively all his life, in his dying moments he has absolutely nothing left to lose. Harry's astonishment and compassion reflected my own.

Treacle posed a good question, now I have a new one (which might avoid going over the same ground over and over before we say farewell to this excellent thread forever ):

- What DID make Harry approach the dying Snape, do you think? Harry-centric question, but obviously Snape-related.

Great points! I think it probably was someone in his family who taught him to be that way, at least to an extent. People don't learn how to hate out of thin air.

Good point about Snape and his love (originally) for Lily. He did leave her alone after she told him to stay out her life for good. He still loved her, but he seemed to respect her wishes (for the most part) in regards to that. Did it give him an excuse to be cruel to Harry like he was? No. But at least he was able to prevent LV from taking over the wizarding world. Which in itself is brave.

I think he did it out of empathy, as much as he hated Snape, he saw him mortally wounded and came over to him while he was still living, not to mention, he was able to get a hold of his (Snape's) memories, which helped provide him with a picture of the man, which no one else, but Dumbledore knew about.

Like you said, these memories didn't always paint him in a good light, but it shows that he didn't mess with them, which is a good thing, unlike Slughorn, who did mess with his own, for whatever reason.

[ignisia]

I agree with Pearl and Fawkesfan's points. I would also add that prejudice is not the only thing learned in early life. One of the things I really enjoy about Snape's backstory is just how (for want of a better word) logically it plays out. A child neglected by parents and shunned by other children is likely to be very lonely and to need friends to fill that void. Someone with such a turbulent home life is unlikely to approach life, family, and love from the same viewpoint as someone with a happy, normal family. I'm not surprised Severus and Lily didn't see eye-to-eye in their teenage years, and I suspect it'd be highly unlikely for either of them to change their minds, coming from where they did.

Originally Posted by Pearl

What DID make Harry approach the dying Snape, do you think? Harry-centric question, but obviously Snape-related.

Like Fawkesfan, I do think empathy was involved. Despite Harry's feelings toward the man, he was dying, and quite horribly. I don't think Harry could just leave him alone like that.

Also-- and I have nothing to back this up, 'cause it's just a feeling I get-- I think this was also an echo of the compulsion that led Harry to follow the Silver Doe. Harry himself didn't know why he was approaching Snape, but there is a spiritual vein that runs through the books (DH in particular) and I think this was one instance of a power beyond Harry urging him forward.

[Fawkesfan1]

Originally Posted by ignisia

I agree with Pearl and Fawkesfan's points. I would also add that prejudice is not the only thing learned in early life. One of the things I really enjoy about Snape's backstory is just how (for want of a better word) logically it plays out. A child neglected by parents and shunned by other children is likely to be very lonely and to need friends to fill that void. Someone with such a turbulent home life is unlikely to approach life, family, and love from the same viewpoint as someone with a happy, normal family. I'm not surprised Severus and Lily didn't see eye-to-eye in their teenage years, and I suspect it'd be highly unlikely for either of them to change their minds, coming from where they did.



Like Fawkesfan, I do think empathy was involved. Despite Harry's feelings toward the man, he was dying, and quite horribly. I don't think Harry could just leave him alone like that.

Also-- and I have nothing to back this up, 'cause it's just a feeling I get-- I think this was also an echo of the compulsion that led Harry to follow the Silver Doe. Harry himself didn't know why he was approaching Snape, but there is a spiritual vein that runs through the books (DH in particular) and I think this was one instance of a power beyond Harry urging him forward.

Good point, iggy. Considering he came from such a bad background, it's amazing he came out with an ounce of sanity. He went through a lot of stuff in his family life, and in his school life... both of which left him very bitter. At the end of the day though, it didn't give him the right to lash out at the students like he did at times. It was wrong -- Period. No matter how much pain and anguish was there... there's no excuse for it. Even if Harry reminded him of James, he wasn't him. It was kind of similar to how Sirius thought of him, he looked so much like his friend, that at times he thought he'd gotten him back. So in a way, both of them thought that the person that they knew was back again in some form.

It would have been wrong to have just let him suffer and die. Good point on that. Maybe.

[MerryLore]

Originally Posted by LyraLovegood

If he loved Lily with "agape love" as the Greeks called it:
He would have understood Lily's love for her sister Petunia and nurtured it instead of undermining it.

In my mind, all humans "have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), and love for another does not make you into a perfect person. Agape love means you see the other person as they are, warts and all, and you continue to love them, even though you know they aren't going to change for you.

Snape loved Lily, even though

she didn't understand him
she wanted him to change
she walked away from him
she would not accept his apology or forgive him
she dated and later married a man who had tormented him
she bore than man a child

I'm not saying Lily made the wrong decision in walking way, and she has every right to choose whom to marry. Snape's love for her does not obligate her in any way.

Agape love does not mean, IMHO, that he loves the people she loves, or suddenly morphs into a different, nearly saintly, person. Actually, i think love often comes with an element of jealousy, and a degree of unhappiness if that person chooses another.

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

- What DID make Harry approach the dying Snape, do you think? Harry-centric question, but obviously Snape-related.

I think Harry didn't want anyone to die but would rather see them in Azkaban if they deserved it (he even gave Voldemort a chance to express remorse). He'd seen many people die, however - Cedric, Dumbledore, Sirius, etc - but it was usually by Avada Kedavra, which appears to be almost immediate. Here Harry was looking for the snake, and he saw the snake attack Snape - very gruesome - and Snape did not die immediately. He was probably bleeding, in pain from the attack and the venom, and while mortally wounded, he was conscious. He was also lying on a dirty floor. I think Harry, being who he was, would have compassion for anyone in that position.

I'm not sure Snape would normally want anyone to see that, but in this case I think he felt relief, because he'd be able to share Dumbledore's instructions. I also think the fact that Harry did come to him, and Snape wanted Harry to finally see him as he really was, was the reason he gave Harry all those memories of himself and Lily. I think it worked - when Harry has his final showdown with Voldemort, there was no hesitation - he knew Snape loved Lily, and that Snape was on Dumbledore's side from the day Voldemort targeted Lily.

[LyraLovegood]

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took

As a nine year old kid, he was obviously hungry for friendship with Lily. At nine years old, I hardly think he desired power. Jo's portrait of him is of an obviously lonely child who looks odd and seems very isolated. He is clearly desperate for friendship with another magical child. As a kid, I think he wanted acceptance. We know very little about his relationship with his mother, but clearly his relationship with his father was far from happy.

It also seems the case that someone has taught the young Snape that Slytherin is the best House and that Gryffindor is 'all brawn and no brain'. Where did he get that attitude from? Kids aren't born prejudiced. And the young Snape's view that Slytherin equals the best and Gryffindor equals a loser house is the exact reverse image of the young James Potter, who is proud of Gryffindor values (nothing wrong with that of course) but also seems to regard all Slytherins as potential Dark Lords in the making. Later on, the desire for great magical power certainly seems to have become a snare and a temptation for the teenage Snape - otherwise he wouldn't have been so drawn to the DEs.

I don't understand viewing the nine year old Snape as a separate person from the fifteen year old Snape. I'm talking about the full character arc of nine-to-sixteen, a continuum of Snape's desires for (a) a relationship with Lily and (b) the power to make his own choices, choose his fate, shape his destiny or whatever you want to call it.

I think a nine-year-old who is, as many interpret the scant scenes of his home life at Spinners End abused at worst, unloved by one or both parents, or at the very least neglected--would very much desire the power at least to make somebody like them. And maybe that's where his ideas of vengeance actually began as well: perhaps he wanted his mean Muggle father to get some sort of comeuppance for not liking him very much and for yelling at his mom.

I see this a bit differently. Snape is certainly rather possessive towards Lily and I think that comes partly from a massive insecurity - who else ever accepted Snape the way that Lily obviously did? As for wanting to control her, he leaves her well alone after she tells him to get out of her life forever.

I don't think we have any canon to show that Snape left Lily alone starting at the age of sixteen. We have no scenes at all of his sixth or seventh year at Hogwarts. Do we know for sure that he didn't continue to hang around like a kicked puppy, hoping to be called back to her side and forgiven for calling her "mudblood?"

Originally Posted by MerryLore

In my mind, all humans "have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), and love for another does not make you into a perfect person. Agape love means you see the other person as they are, warts and all, and you continue to love them, even though you know they aren't going to change for you.

Snape loved Lily, even though

she didn't understand him
she wanted him to change
she walked away from him
she would not accept his apology or forgive him
she dated and later married a man who had tormented him
she bore than man a child

I'm not saying Lily made the wrong decision in walking way, and she has every right to choose whom to marry. Snape's love for her does not obligate her in any way.

Agape love does not mean, IMHO, that he loves the people she loves, or suddenly morphs into a different, nearly saintly, person. Actually, i think love often comes with an element of jealousy, and a degree of unhappiness if that person chooses another.

In my opinion there's a world of difference between agape love--which IMO is the kind of love Lily showed when she sacrificed herself to try to stop Voldemort from killing baby Harry--and the love that even a decent young man would show to his teenaged friend, the friend who fears his Housemates because of the things they do to other Muggleborn students. Snape didn't even listen to her opinions. He stopped listening when Lily said she knew James was an arrogant toe-rag. He went right back to his fantasy world, where Lily would fall in love with Snape if only Snape were the best at the Dark Arts that she despised. The world where Snape could protect Lily from the Death Eaters because Lily was the magical exception to the rule that Muggleborn witches were somehow inferior to half-bloods and pure bloods.

[MerryLore]

Originally Posted by LyraLovegood

In my opinion there's a world of difference between agape love--which IMO is the kind of love Lily showed when she sacrificed herself to try to stop Voldemort from killing baby Harry--and the love that even a decent young man would show to his teenaged friend, the friend who fears his Housemates because of the things they do to other Muggleborn students.

Love is a feeling and isn't always rational, IMHO. Thinking rationally, this makes sense, but it isn't how he viewed things.He saw life from a different perspective, albeit a highly flawed one. This doesn't mean he did not love Lily. Lily's choices probably didn't make sense to him, either.