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The Marauders: Group Character Analysis v.2



View Poll Results: If you could choose one of the Marauders' Animagus forms...
Dog 126 55.26%
Stag 41 17.98%
Rat 3 1.32%
Animagi are not as cool as werewolves! 20 8.77%
Obligatory pony option 38 16.67%
Voters: 228. You may not vote on this poll

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  #201  
Old July 13th, 2010, 9:33 am
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Re: The Marauders: Group Character Analysis v.2

POA - Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs'That was still really dangerous! Running around in the dark with a werewolf! What if you've given the slip and bitten somebody?'

'A thought that still haunts me,' said Lupin heavily. 'And there were near misses, many of them. We laughed about them afterwards. We were young, thoughtless - carried away with our own cleverness.'
bold mine

I don't think they took steps to be careful. Lupin himself says they did not. He feels guilty years later of what could have happened and he himself says that there were many near misses, which luckily for them did not turn into disasters imo.

Lupin's life made him so starved for the right kind of attention that he went to extreme lengths to be on the right side of those who did not see him as a monster. That is indicative of his many actions throughout the Books, where he compromises prudence, good judgement and an sense of doing the right thing so that people/friends would continue to be friendly with him. Keeping quiet in the SWM, keeping quiet about Sirius's animagus form in POA, roaming around knowing well he was endangering many people, not to mention his own life and those of his friends and betraying Dumbledore's trust is another indication of that compromise which he did almost all through his life imo.


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  #202  
Old July 14th, 2010, 1:28 am
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Re: The Marauders: Group Character Analysis v.2

For the poll, I picked a dog because it's the most convenient, though the pony option was very tempting. Anyway....

---

1. Sirius would have died for his friends and expected the same from Peter. Was this unfair or was this an integral part of being a Marauder?
Perhaps it is a high expectation, but it makes sense from his perspective. By the time the Marauders graduated Hogwarts, they likely saw each other as brothers. I think Sirius saw them as his actual family and thought Peter felt the same way, but was shocked when proven otherwise.

On the other hand, Peter saw that he had no choice in the matter; it was either death or join Voldemort. No matter how Sirius felt, Peter would have come out as the bad guy for choosing to save his life. Personally, I think it's always wrong to let a whole family die just to save yourself and especially so if one of the people is a best friend. I can't really blame Sirius for thinking the same.

2. How did James' and Sirius' particularly close friendship influence Remus and Peter? Did they feel left out or inferior?
Maybe Remus got jealous every once in a while - who knows? I doubt it was a huge problem, anyway. Sirius and James understood each other because they were so alike. I don't think Remus could have shared that closeness with either of them because he was too different. He was modest, sensible, and a bit cautious, quite unlike the daredevils James and Sirius made themselves known as.

3. Why was Remus the main suspect in 1981? Did Peter have a walk-over to discredit Remus if he did so at all?
It's pretty clear in the books why Sirius thought Remus was the prime suspect. The only "walk-over" Peter had over Remus was that he was not intelligent. Sirius never would have dreamed that Peter would be the Death Eater instead of the more intelligent friend, Remus.

4. James, Sirius and Peter became Animagi for Remus. Was this noble or adventurous?
Initially, noble. They wanted to be there for their best friend who had to suffer alone, judging by the amount of destruction in the Shrieking Shack. After a while, the Marauders realized how much freedom they had on the full moons and explored Hogwarts and Hogsmeade.

5. What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?
Obsession? That's a bit too strong, IMO. James just seemed to have a normal crush on her.

6. How did Lily influence the dynamics within the Marauders? Did she become the fifth Marauder, so to speak?
Well, there's no knowing for sure because we never see her interact with the group as a whole. Maybe she changed the relationship slightly because she married James? She was definitely close with them though, given her concern for Peter and friendliness towards Sirius.

7. James chose Sirius as godfather. Were Remus and Peter understanding or hurt by this decision?
If they didn't see that coming, I'd be very surprised!

8. Peter betrayed his friends. Was he ever happy with this decision and do you think that his friends would be able to forgive him if they had the chance?
Well, happy may not be the right word to use. I have a feeling that at the back of his mind he felt guilty for what he had done, but that is just a guess. As for the last question, no, Peter's friends would never have forgiven him. He killed two of his best friends and had another friend serve his punishment for the rest of his life.

9. Was joining the Order a joint decision or was peer pressure involved? For instance, did James and Sirius lead the way and Remus and Peter follow?

The only one who would not have chosen to join the Order if he had the choice would be Peter. I believe James, Sirius, and Remus were all interested in fighting Voldemort.

10. How do the Marauders compare to Fred and George? Do you think that they, and especially James and Sirius, were worse or just as (un)funny as the Weasley twins?
James and Sirius were probably worse in that they played pranks on people they didn't like more than Fred and George. (That's not to say that the twins never did that, just not as often.) Overall, I think the Marauders did some more extreme things, like becoming illegal Animagi. They were similar in that they were seen as the funny ones in school, had a knack for breaking rules, and were widely popular.

11. Did Deathly Hallows change your mind about the Marauders? Do you think that they were portrayed favourably or came out badly?
It didn't change anything about them for me. Sirius and Peter were portrayed the same. James was portrayed a bit better when the readers saw him play with Harry and found out about his unwavering trust. Remus, IMO, is the one who was portrayed negatively because he was about to run out on his pregnant wife.

12. Which Marauder do you like best and what are the traits that endear him to you? Did the other Marauders appreciate these traits?
Sirius! adfoot: I love his loyalty, courage, humor, and overall complexity. He is definitely not perfect, but his flaws make me like him even more as a character.


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  #203  
Old July 15th, 2010, 2:27 am
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Re: The Marauders: Group Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by Beatifically View Post
Maybe Remus got jealous every once in a while - who knows? I doubt it was a huge problem, anyway. Sirius and James understood each other because they were so alike. I don't think Remus could have shared that closeness with either of them because he was too different. He was modest, sensible, and a bit cautious, quite unlike the daredevils James and Sirius made themselves known as.
I agree on the closeness. I think Remus probably wasn't as forward as the other two and may have held something of himself back. Even after they discovered his secret, I doubt he was willing to be as close as they were, maybe something which came from hiding that secret for so long.

Quote:
5. What did the other Marauders think about James' obsession with Lily?
Obsession? That's a bit too strong, IMO. James just seemed to have a normal crush on her.
I agree, I have no clue as to where this obsession idea comes from. I think it's more fanon than canon. James doodled Lily's initials (loads of teens do that when it comes to a crush) and asked her out once. Then they started dating in seventh year, and eventually married. I don't see any evidence of obsession, just a normal crush.


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  #204  
Old July 15th, 2010, 6:39 am
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Re: The Marauders: Group Character Analysis v.2

I've always felt that James and Sirius were closer to each other than they were to the other 2 friends. I think they formed a group within a group. While the 4 were friends, I think it was Sirius and James who were the leaders and both went to lengths to accommodate each other. I think they had a friendship not unlike the one between Snape and Lily. James was a wonderful friend and it showed how much he cared for Sirius even after the werewolf incident, he was prepared to swear that Sirius would rather die than betray James imo.

@James Obsession :: I think James was obsessed; seeing he offered incentives for Lily to go out with him in the SWM, I think he was not prepared to take 'No' for an answer. Of course we don't know if he approached after again and again after the SWM, but he must have at least asked her out once, since they became a couple in their seventh year imo. Unless Lily asked him out.


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  #205  
Old July 16th, 2010, 2:01 am
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Re: The Marauders: Group Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
@James Obsession :: I think James was obsessed; seeing he offered incentives for Lily to go out with him in the SWM, I think he was not prepared to take 'No' for an answer. Of course we don't know if he approached after again and again after the SWM, but he must have at least asked her out once, since they became a couple in their seventh year imo. Unless Lily asked him out.
Will reply in the James Potter thread.


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  #206  
Old July 16th, 2010, 12:16 pm
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Re: The Marauders: Group Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
POA - Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs'That was still really dangerous! Running around in the dark with a werewolf! What if you've given the slip and bitten somebody?'

'A thought that still haunts me,' said Lupin heavily. 'And there were near misses, many of them. We laughed about them afterwards. We were young, thoughtless - carried away with our own cleverness.'
bold mine

I don't think they took steps to be careful. Lupin himself says they did not. He feels guilty years later of what could have happened and he himself says that there were many near misses, which luckily for them did not turn into disasters imo.

Lupin's life made him so starved for the right kind of attention that he went to extreme lengths to be on the right side of those who did not see him as a monster. That is indicative of his many actions throughout the Books, where he compromises prudence, good judgement and an sense of doing the right thing so that people/friends would continue to be friendly with him. Keeping quiet in the SWM, keeping quiet about Sirius's animagus form in POA, roaming around knowing well he was endangering many people, not to mention his own life and those of his friends and betraying Dumbledore's trust is another indication of that compromise which he did almost all through his life imo.
Lupin did not say they did not take steps to be careful. On the contrary, he explains all the things they did to be careful and explicitly stated that he was less dangerous when the Marauders were with him because his mind was less wolfish. There were near misses, but if they had not been careful, those near misses would have been fatalities, severe injuries, and/or others being afflicted with the werewolf transformation. Nothing like that happened because they were careful and James and Sirius were always there to make sure Lupin did not hurt anyone.

Lupin made mistakes like everyone does. The Marauders should have gone to Dumbledore with their ideas to help Lupin - I'm certain he would have admired how much they cared for their friend and helped them go about that even more safely than they did on their own. And they wouldn't have been breaking any rules had they done it that way. But they were teenagers and, naturally, they didn't believe an adult authority figure would be supportive. He didn't always intervene when his friends did something wrong, but he did lecture them about their behavior and sometimes make them feel bad about themselves for it. We see Hermione do the same thing with Harry and Ron. She didn't always stop them from breaking the rules, but she did lecture them and sometimes they felt bad about it. Teenagers do these kinds of things all the time. This is normal.

I don't fault Lupin's behavior in POA at all - I consider that misplaced guilt because, what Lupin knew, wasn't going to be of any help in figuring out how Sirius was getting inside the castle. Out of the seven tunnels Lupin knew about, there was only one that Sirius could have used to enter the castle - the one that led to Honeydukes. Sirius was not using that tunnel because he was safely on Hogwarts grounds and hiding in the forest. He would have had to face the dementors to go into Hogsmeade and there was no need for him to do that. Nor did he use his animagus form to get inside the castle - which is what they were trying to figure out. He was in human form both times and was seen. It was never revealed how Sirius was getting into the castle, but he wasn't doing it by any means that Lupin would have been aware of. We also know that Lupin was keeping an eye on things himself - particularly after he confiscated the Marauder's Map from Harry. Had there been any indication that Sirius was using the tunnel or his animagus form to get inside the castle, I have no doubt that Lupin would have reported it. Sirius was using his animagus form on the grounds, but the only thing that Lupin would have accomplished by telling anyone about Sirius being an animagus would have been to prevent the truth from being revealed and aiding the Ministry in administering the dementor's kiss to an innocent man. That would not be something to be proud of, IMO.

Lupin had a lot of misplaced guilt. He wasted a lot of time worrying about what could have happened instead of appreciating what did happen. He felt guilty because he was a werewolf even though that wasn't his fault and he couldn't have prevented it. He felt guilty that his friends cared about him so much that they did something illegal to help him. He felt guilty about falling in love with Tonks. He felt guilty about marrying Tonks. He felt guilty when Tonks found out she was pregnant. That was part of Lupin's tragedy - just as he started accepting that he could be happy and didn't have anything to feel guilty about, he was killed.

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Originally Posted by FurryDice View Post
I agree on the closeness. I think Remus probably wasn't as forward as the other two and may have held something of himself back. Even after they discovered his secret, I doubt he was willing to be as close as they were, maybe something which came from hiding that secret for so long.
I agree. Lupin did that as an adult as well - particularly in his relationship with Tonks. It was hard for him to accept that he had done nothing wrong and had nothing to feel guilty about. As I said above, that was part of the tragedy - he died just as he accepted that.

Quote:
I agree, I have no clue as to where this obsession idea comes from. I think it's more fanon than canon. James doodled Lily's initials (loads of teens do that when it comes to a crush) and asked her out once. Then they started dating in seventh year, and eventually married. I don't see any evidence of obsession, just a normal crush.
I agree. I think James probably asked Lily out more than once, but I wouldn't say that was an indication of obsession. He had feelings for Lily and wanted her to give him a chance. He did something stupid in attempting to bargain with her for a date - and that came across more as begging her for a chance than anything else to me - but Lily called him on it and told him no - explaining her reasons why as well. James didn't hide his feelings or try to force the issue when Lily told him no. On the contrary, he actually listened to what she was saying and made an effort to change the things about himself that she didn't like.


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  #207  
Old July 16th, 2010, 3:27 pm
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Re: The Marauders: Group Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
Lupin made mistakes like everyone does. The Marauders should have gone to Dumbledore with their ideas to help Lupin - I'm certain he would have admired how much they cared for their friend and helped them go about that even more safely than they did on their own.
I don't think he would have allowed them to become Animagi, IMO. There were a lot of risks, a Ministry inquiry, e.t.c.


Quote:
Lupin had a lot of misplaced guilt. He wasted a lot of time worrying about what could have happened instead of appreciating what did happen. He felt guilty because he was a werewolf even though that wasn't his fault and he couldn't have prevented it. He felt guilty that his friends cared about him so much that they did something illegal to help him. He felt guilty about falling in love with Tonks. He felt guilty about marrying Tonks. He felt guilty when Tonks found out she was pregnant. That was part of Lupin's tragedy - just as he started accepting that he could be happy and didn't have anything to feel guilty about, he was killed.
I agree with this. Much of this stems from his lyncathropy. Being shunned and discrimminated by most of the wizarding world, he began to see himself through their eyes, as a monster. I don't think he actually felt he was worthy to have friends, and a family-he probably felt he didn't deserve them. All tragic stories are sad, but Remus' story was worse because the moment he accepted that he was worthy of love, he lost his life.


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  #208  
Old July 16th, 2010, 3:46 pm
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Re: The Marauders: Group Character Analysis v.2

Keeping quiet about Sirius's animagi form? I don't recall any of this? I imagine that Dumbledore was well aware of Sirius's animagi form. I imagine that Dumbledore indeed took advantage of the fact that both James and Sirius (and Peter!) were animagi. After all they were part of the First Order. In fact that there's nothing in canon (to my knowledge) to say that either Sirius or James continued to be unregistered animagi after school. As far as I can recall Sirius just said that he changed into a dog and it was the changing into a dog that helped him escape. Perhaps it never occured to Dumbledore or the Ministry that turning into animal could stop the Dementors from performing their duty. Perhaps running an advert for a big black dog would have recieved too many false reports to be able to check out.

But it's been a while since I've read PoA so if anyone has specific quotes to prove that no one knew Sirius was animagus I'd be greatful.


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Old July 16th, 2010, 4:01 pm
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Re: The Marauders: Group Character Analysis v.2

Dumbledore did not know until the end of POA that the 3 had become animagi, when Sirius told him.

'Sirius told me all about how they all became animagi last night, said Dumbledore smiling. 'An extraordinary achievement - not least keeping it quiet from me.' - Owl Post - POA


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  #210  
Old July 16th, 2010, 4:38 pm
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Re: The Marauders: Group Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
I don't fault Lupin's behavior in POA at all - I consider that misplaced guilt because, what Lupin knew, wasn't going to be of any help in figuring out how Sirius was getting inside the castle. Out of the seven tunnels Lupin knew about, there was only one that Sirius could have used to enter the castle - the one that led to Honeydukes. Sirius was not using that tunnel because he was safely on Hogwarts grounds and hiding in the forest. He would have had to face the dementors to go into Hogsmeade and there was no need for him to do that. Nor did he use his animagus form to get inside the castle - which is what they were trying to figure out. He was in human form both times and was seen. It was never revealed how Sirius was getting into the castle, but he wasn't doing it by any means that Lupin would have been aware of. We also know that Lupin was keeping an eye on things himself - particularly after he confiscated the Marauder's Map from Harry. Had there been any indication that Sirius was using the tunnel or his animagus form to get inside the castle, I have no doubt that Lupin would have reported it. Sirius was using his animagus form on the grounds, but the only thing that Lupin would have accomplished by telling anyone about Sirius being an animagus would have been to prevent the truth from being revealed and aiding the Ministry in administering the dementor's kiss to an innocent man. That would not be something to be proud of, IMO.
I think alerting Dumbledore to Sirius's being an animagi would've been the right thing to do in a situation like that. For quite some time, Lupin didn't know that Pettigrew had been the one to sell the Potters to Voldemort. He wouldn't have been being disloyal to an old friend, he would've been loyal to a new one (Harry). Although I'm glad such an event never occured, Lupin was wrong to let things progress that way; especially after Black got in the first time.


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  #211  
Old July 16th, 2010, 5:03 pm
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Re: The Marauders: Group Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods View Post
'Sirius told me all about how they all became animagi last night, said Dumbledore smiling. 'An extraordinary achievement - not least keeping it quiet from me.' - Owl Post - POA
Thanks! I think we can say plot contrivance!


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Old July 16th, 2010, 6:24 pm
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Re: The Marauders: Group Character Analysis v.2

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I don't think he would have allowed them to become Animagi, IMO. There were a lot of risks, a Ministry inquiry, e.t.c.
There were risks in learning to become an animagus because it was something that was difficult to do, but the only thing the Ministry required for the animagi transformation is that animagi register themselves - what type of animal they became, special markings, etc... Hermione explained that in POA. As far as we're shown, it was not like apparition where you had to be a certain age and get a license as well. Human transformation was part of the curriculum at Hogwarts. The Marauders taught themselves how to do it earlier than they would have learned in following the scheduled curriculum - rather like Harry learning how to do the difficult Patronus Charm in his third year instead of his sixth and all the defensive magic the DA learned - but the only thing they did that was illegal was not registering themselves. Had they gotten Dumbledore's permission, they would probably have also been registered as animagi. Though that is debatable - Dumbledore didn't always follow Ministry regulations himself.

Quote:
I agree with this. Much of this stems from his lyncathropy. Being shunned and discrimminated by most of the wizarding world, he began to see himself through their eyes, as a monster. I don't think he actually felt he was worthy to have friends, and a family-he probably felt he didn't deserve them. All tragic stories are sad, but Remus' story was worse because the moment he accepted that he was worthy of love, he lost his life.
Yeah - Lupin always made me very sad because he didn't seem to feel that he was worthy of anything that would bring happiness. His death was really the only one that caught me by surprise because I was expecting him to remain the last surviving Marauder after he had accepted that he had nothing to feel guilty about and was happy.

Quote:
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I think alerting Dumbledore to Sirius's being an animagi would've been the right thing to do in a situation like that. For quite some time, Lupin didn't know that Pettigrew had been the one to sell the Potters to Voldemort. He wouldn't have been being disloyal to an old friend, he would've been loyal to a new one (Harry). Although I'm glad such an event never occured, Lupin was wrong to let things progress that way; especially after Black got in the first time.
I look at the situation as a whole because there was a lot more at stake than just loyalty and friendship - which didn't factor into Lupin's decision initially in POA. I can understand where Lupin would be reluctant to say anything because of his misplaced guilt and how he felt about the dementor's kiss even when he still believed Sirius was guilty. Not to mention the oddities of the two break-ins raising doubt about Sirius' guilt as well as the fear that he was after Harry.

Again, we see similar behavior from Hermione - albeit for different reasons. When she figured out that Lupin was a werewolf, she believed that he was keeping it a secret from everyone. The right thing to do would have been for her to report her discovery right away - which is what Snape was hoping for when he gave the assignment on werewolves to the DADA class - but she chose not to say anything because she respected him as a teacher and she did not want him to lose his job because some people discriminated unfairly against werewolves.

I give credit to Lupin for what he did because, even with his misplaced guilt about it, he didn't turn a blind eye to the danger. He kept an eye on things and watched for evidence that Sirius was using the tunnel or his animagus form to enter the castle - particularly after he got the map back from Harry. He made sure that Harry would not go wandering off recklessly - i.e. using the tunnel to go to Hogsmeade - by confiscating the map and making him realize what he had risked by reminding him of what his parents had done for him. He knew that Harry would go to Hagrid that night and used the map to keep watch on the situation.

The technicalities of what is right and wrong can be picked apart very easily, but the big picture is often more important than regulations or laws. Intention and method are very significant as well. Hermione looked at the big picture when she chose not to say anything about Lupin being a werewolf. She wasn't trying to endanger anyone. Lupin was the best DADA teacher they ever had and she didn't want to lose a good teacher and she didn't want him to lose his job because some people discriminated unfairly against werewolves. Lupin chose not to reveal that Sirius was an animagus because of his own misplaced guilt and the fear of losing Dumbledore's trust - and I believe he also had increasing doubts as the year progressed about whether or not Sirius was really guilty as well. He wasn't trying to endanger anyone and he kept watch over things on his own. Had Sirius actually been using the tunnel or his animagus form to get into the castle, I have no doubt that Lupin would have gone to Dumbledore. Since it was obvious that Sirius was not using either to get in, Lupin couldn't do anything more than the other teachers had done because he had no idea how Sirius was actually getting into the castle any more than they did. When it was all said and done, they discovered that Sirius was innocent so I would say that Lupin did the right thing.


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  #213  
Old July 16th, 2010, 8:54 pm
UselessCharmMaster  Undisclosed.gif UselessCharmMaster is offline
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Re: The Marauders: Group Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
I give credit to Lupin for what he did because, even with his misplaced guilt about it, he didn't turn a blind eye to the danger.

Had Sirius actually been using the tunnel or his animagus form to get into the castle, I have no doubt that Lupin would have gone to Dumbledore. Since it was obvious that Sirius was not using either to get in, Lupin couldn't do anything more than the other teachers had done because he had no idea how Sirius was actually getting into the castle any more than they did.

When it was all said and done, they discovered that Sirius was innocent so I would say that Lupin did the right thing.
I would say Lupin was extremely lucky that Sirius wasn't a murderer. And as far as I remember Sirius in the Shack had enough time to kill the Trio before Lupin arrived. Even if Lupin was trying to control the situation, he wouldn't prevent Harry's death. And there was no time to go to Dumbledore.

If Sirius killed Harry, Lupin would spend the rest of his life asking himself about his own responsibility, and the answer could be quite bitter. Because when someone's life is in danger, you should give all the information that can help to stop the murderer. If you hide that information, you can't be sure you didn't help the murderer instead.


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  #214  
Old July 16th, 2010, 11:10 pm
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Re: The Marauders: Group Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster View Post
I would say Lupin was extremely lucky that Sirius wasn't a murderer. And as far as I remember Sirius in the Shack had enough time to kill the Trio before Lupin arrived. Even if Lupin was trying to control the situation, he wouldn't prevent Harry's death. And there was no time to go to Dumbledore.

If Sirius killed Harry, Lupin would spend the rest of his life asking himself about his own responsibility, and the answer could be quite bitter. Because when someone's life is in danger, you should give all the information that can help to stop the murderer. If you hide that information, you can't be sure you didn't help the murderer instead.
I totally agree with you, from a pure outside view I cannot understand why Lupin didn't tell Dumbledore all the information even if this meant loose part of Dumbledore's confidence. Had Sirius been a murderer, he would have been helping him.


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  #215  
Old July 17th, 2010, 2:39 pm
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Re: The Marauders: Group Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
There were risks in learning to become an animagus because it was something that was difficult to do, but the only thing the Ministry required for the animagi transformation is that animagi register themselves - what type of animal they became, special markings, etc... Hermione explained that in POA. As far as we're shown, it was not like apparition where you had to be a certain age and get a license as well. Human transformation was part of the curriculum at Hogwarts. The Marauders taught themselves how to do it earlier than they would have learned in following the scheduled curriculum - rather like Harry learning how to do the difficult Patronus Charm in his third year instead of his sixth and all the defensive magic the DA learned - but the only thing they did that was illegal was not registering themselves. Had they gotten Dumbledore's permission, they would probably have also been registered as animagi. Though that is debatable - Dumbledore didn't always follow Ministry regulations himself.
IMO to become Animagi, you need to follow some Ministry approved course.
Lupin says Animagi transformations were difficult and could go horribly wrong. The Marauders seemed to have researched it and learned how to do it in a sort of trial and error method. I wouldn't be surprised if Marauders transformed using some unique method than the one someone like McGonagall used.

I'm not sure Dumbledore would have allowed as it was very difficult procedure and they were just kids. On the other hand, Dumbledore might have helped them become one though. They'd have managed to become one faster.

To the marauders, Dumbledore would be just their headmaster. Harry and Dumbledore had a special relationship and we seem to think that everyone ought to have thought of Dumbledore the same way as Harry. I think most people were awed by Dumbledore and were reluctant to approach him.


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  #216  
Old July 17th, 2010, 6:06 pm
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Re: The Marauders: Group Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by UselessCharmMaster View Post
I would say Lupin was extremely lucky that Sirius wasn't a murderer. And as far as I remember Sirius in the Shack had enough time to kill the Trio before Lupin arrived. Even if Lupin was trying to control the situation, he wouldn't prevent Harry's death. And there was no time to go to Dumbledore.

If Sirius killed Harry, Lupin would spend the rest of his life asking himself about his own responsibility, and the answer could be quite bitter. Because when someone's life is in danger, you should give all the information that can help to stop the murderer. If you hide that information, you can't be sure you didn't help the murderer instead.
There are several factors to consider with that. First - the oddities of the two break-ins that were discussed on page. Sirius' behavior indicated that he was after someone other than Harry.

Second - Lupin could quickly contact Dumbledore at any time by using his patronus. That was how the Order communicated with each other because it was fast, efficient, and secure.

Third - on the night in question, Lupin was looking at the map and saw Pettigrew with the trio when they left Hagrid's hut. That was before Sirius showed up. Seeing Pettigrew's name is what made Lupin realize that Sirius was innocent so he already knew that Harry was not in any danger from Sirius when he left the castle to go to the Whomping Willow.

It wasn't a matter of luck - it was a matter of putting the pieces of the puzzle together and figuring out the truth. Since it was obvious that Sirius was neither using the tunnel nor his animagus form to enter the castle - not to mention the fact that Sirius was innocent - there was no reason for Lupin to feel guilty for not reporting that, IMO.

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Originally Posted by wolfbrother View Post
IMO to become Animagi, you need to follow some Ministry approved course.
Lupin says Animagi transformations were difficult and could go horribly wrong. The Marauders seemed to have researched it and learned how to do it in a sort of trial and error method. I wouldn't be surprised if Marauders transformed using some unique method than the one someone like McGonagall used.
There's no indication of that in the text. The Ministry required those who learned the animagus transformation to register themselves - just as they required people to get a license for apparating - but as far as we are shown, there was no law or regulation regarding learning how to do either. That would be a pointless law to make because it could not be enforced. Attendance at Hogwarts was not mandatory - it was optional. It was acceptable for parents to home-school their children if they wanted to instead of sending them to Hogwarts - in which case, things like the animagus transformation and apparition would either be taught by the parents or they would learn on their own - though both would still be optional. It was also acceptable for the students at Hogwarts to study ahead and learn more advanced spellwork and even invent their own spells and magical objects - Hermione was teaching herself NEWT level spellwork in her fifth year. Any student could do that if they wanted to - the library was available to all of them and had many resources outside of their textbooks for them to study and learn magic on their own.

As far as we are shown, it was not against the rules - or any laws - for the Marauders to teach themselves how to become animagi. What they did wrong was that they did not register themselves as animagi after they learned how.

Quote:
I'm not sure Dumbledore would have allowed as it was very difficult procedure and they were just kids. On the other hand, Dumbledore might have helped them become one though. They'd have managed to become one faster.
I wasn't referring to them learning how to become animagi - see above. I was referring to them helping Lupin after they had become animagi. At that point, they could have gone to Dumbledore and gotten his permission to keep Lupin company in the forest in their animal forms because Lupin was less dangerous in their company and James and Sirius became animals large enough to prevent Lupin from hurting anyone. There was no reason for Dumbledore not to allow them to do that as long as they stayed in the forest.

Dumbledore might have required them to register themselves in that event, but I think that is debatable because Dumbledore didn't always follow Ministry regulations himself.

Quote:
To the marauders, Dumbledore would be just their headmaster. Harry and Dumbledore had a special relationship and we seem to think that everyone ought to have thought of Dumbledore the same way as Harry. I think most people were awed by Dumbledore and were reluctant to approach him.
I agree. To most people, Dumbledore was an aloof figure - a powerful wizard in a position of authority with a lot of responsibilities. Harry had a unique relationship with Dumbledore because Dumbledore took a personal interest in protecting him because of the prophecy. That was not the case with any other student. Dumbledore didn't seek students out to have chats with them under normal circumstances. He sought Harry out and built up a more personal relationship with him because he knew what Harry was facing in his future. If Dumbledore had not done that, Harry would have continued to view him as an authority figure like all the other students. For the Marauders, that's what Dumbledore would have always been to them - their Headmaster as students and leader of the Order when they were adults.

Because of that, I can understand why they did not think they could go to him and ask permission to help Lupin. The reader can see that Dumbledore would not have punished them for learning advanced magic on their own or wanting to help their friend because we get to know him better through Harry. The Marauders didn't have that advantage so it is understandable why they would not have been willing to take the risk of telling him what they had done or ask permission to keep Lupin company.


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  #217  
Old July 17th, 2010, 6:51 pm
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Re: The Marauders: Group Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
Lupin did not say they did not take steps to be careful. On the contrary, he explains all the things they did to be careful
I don't think he talks of any preparation to make it safe for others who could not transform into animagi.

'A thought that still haunts me,' said Lupin heavily. 'And there were near misses, many of them. We laughed about them afterwards. We were young, thoughtless - carried away with our own cleverness.' - POA.

'Heavily' is the word used to describe how he was feeling and based on the content of the words he said, I thought it suggested guilt; guilt that they could have hurt others. IN fact Lupin goes on to say that they brushed it off, because they were young and probably because the attraction of being with others in such a terrible time was very, very desirable.

Quote:
and explicitly stated that he was less dangerous when the Marauders were with him because his mind was less wolfish.
But can it be considered reason enough to place others in danger?

Quote:
There were near misses, but if they had not been careful, those near misses would have been fatalities, severe injuries, and/or others being afflicted with the werewolf transformation. Nothing like that happened because they were careful and James and Sirius were always there to make sure Lupin did not hurt anyone.
Young and thoughtless were the words Lupin used and I don't think he meant he and the others were careful. They were young, the others were possibly excited and he Lupin was thrilled he had his friends with as he roamed as a werewolf. It was because they roamed the grounds and the village, which Lupin certainly was not allowed to, that there were near misses and this is what I think Lupin says too.

Quote:
Had there been any indication that Sirius was using the tunnel or his animagus form to get inside the castle, I have no doubt that Lupin would have reported it.
Whether Sirius used his animagus form or not; I think Lupin should have told Dumbledore so that Dumbledore could have warded the school against that and in that process he would have come to know the existence of another animagus, Peter. At least Lupin should have informed Dumbledore after Sirius broke into the Tower. Both times he was silent and imo wrong.

Quote:
He felt guilty when Tonks found out she was pregnant.
I don't blame him for leaving Tonks. It took a lot from him to leave her and I think that was why he was enraged when Harry did not understand that.


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  #218  
Old July 17th, 2010, 7:18 pm
UselessCharmMaster  Undisclosed.gif UselessCharmMaster is offline
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Re: The Marauders: Group Character Analysis v.2

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that. First - the oddities of the two break-ins that were discussed on page. Sirius' behavior indicated that he was after someone other than Harry.
Could you please give us the canon evidence of that?


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  #219  
Old July 17th, 2010, 8:26 pm
wolfbrother  Male.gif wolfbrother is offline
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Re: The Marauders: Group Character Analysis v.2

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Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post

There's no indication of that in the text. The Ministry required those who learned the animagus transformation to register themselves - just as they required people to get a license for apparating - but as far as we are shown, there was no law or regulation regarding learning how to do either. That would be a pointless law to make because it could not be enforced. Attendance at Hogwarts was not mandatory - it was optional. It was acceptable for parents to home-school their children if they wanted to instead of sending them to Hogwarts - in which case, things like the animagus transformation and apparition would either be taught by the parents or they would learn on their own - though both would still be optional. It was also acceptable for the students at Hogwarts to study ahead and learn more advanced spellwork and even invent their own spells and magical objects - Hermione was teaching herself NEWT level spellwork in her fifth year. Any student could do that if they wanted to - the library was available to all of them and had many resources outside of their textbooks for them to study and learn magic on their own.

As far as we are shown, it was not against the rules - or any laws - for the Marauders to teach themselves how to become animagi. What they did wrong was that they did not register themselves as animagi after they learned how.
IMO the Ministry required Animagi to register was so that they could identify the person in his animagi form. The reason being that Animagi transformations are most used for covert activities. To me, it doesn't make sense that the Ministry wouldn't try to regulate it. People who were becoming Animagi for spying would not walk in and register themselves. IMO becoming Animagi was a complex process where you had to join and pass a Ministry approved course. I don't think there was any "How to become Animagi" book anywhere which makes the marauders' feat all the more extraordinary.


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  #220  
Old July 24th, 2010, 9:12 pm
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Re: The Marauders: Group Character Analysis v.2

I'm sure i read somewhere that apparation was licenced in order to stop people who couldn't do it safely from injuring themselves.
(I can't remember which book but i'm pretty certain that it was arther weasley who says it.)
I always assumed that the test was like our driving test; you could practice as much as you like as long as you were accompanied by someone who has a licence but can't do it on your own untill you have proved that you are capable of doing it on your own.

I always thought that the rules for registering as an animagi had more to do with identification and tracking than actual safety.
For this reason i'd always assumed that, although they were taking a risk by attempting to becaome animagi they broke no rules untill they actually managed to complete the transformation succesfully, and they are certainly not the only ones who fall into this catagory, we know about Rita Skeeter and i'm sure there were other unregisterd animagi around.


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