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Why was Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor? v3



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  #41  
Old April 19th, 2010, 8:05 am
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Re: Why was Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor? v3

IMO, JKR put Pettigrew in Gryffindor as a plot device. She needed someone close enough to the Potters to be able to betray them. Pettigrew wasn't very brave, look at the way he pleaded for his life in the Shrieking Shack, and before that how terrified he (as Scabbers) was once he knew Sirius was out of Azkaban and hot on his trail.

It's possible that when he was Sorted, he asked to be put with the friends he had made on the train. Since the students are Sorted in alphabetic order, he knew that Black and Lupin were in Gryffindor, and there was little doubt that James Potter would end up there too. Since the Hat wasn't too sure where to put him, maybe it just went with what Pettigrew asked, the way it did with Harry.

Wilfitz, Good point that Snape should have been in Gryffindor, but here too it may be a plot device. For that matter, Hermione, with her brains, should have been in Ravenclaw - and why was Marietta in Ravenclaw? She doesn't come out as all that smart. Maybe someone should start threads on those characters who seem to have been Sorted into the "wrong" House.


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Old April 19th, 2010, 8:35 pm
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Re: Why was Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor? v3

Perhaps another quality that distinguishes Gryffindors is mule-like stubbornness. Consider:

Hat: You'd be good in Slytherin.
Harry: NO!
Hat: You sure?
Harry: YES!

Harry: Draco is a DE.
R&H: Not likely.
Harry: Yes, he is.
Dumbledore: Forget it.
Harry: I'm going to catch him.

Harry: Snape's bad
Dumbledore: Snape's good
Harry: no
DD: yes
Harry: no

F&G: We are opening a joke shop!
Molly: Over my deceased body!
F&G: Still doing it.
Molly: Even after I destroy your inventory?
F&G: Apparently, yes.

So, I can just see this:

Sirius and James: Go away!
Peter: No.
S&J: Please
Peter: No.

Hence, a Gryffindor.


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Old May 4th, 2010, 6:05 am
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Re: Why was Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor? v3

peter was a good, loyal and true Gryffindor when he was sorted there. he changed later on.


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Old May 4th, 2010, 6:06 am
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Re: Why was Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor? v3

I can also see pettigrew being the type to 'ask' the sorting hat to be put into gryffindor.


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Old May 4th, 2010, 12:19 pm
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Re: Why was Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor? v3

Quote:
Originally Posted by heathurrr View Post
I can also see pettigrew being the type to 'ask' the sorting hat to be put into gryffindor.
We know that the sorting hat takes into consideration your House of choice, so I would agree that that is the only way PP would have been sorted into Gryffindor .


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  #46  
Old May 24th, 2010, 6:17 am
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Re: Why was Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor? v3

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Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
peter was a good, loyal and true Gryffindor when he was sorted there. he changed later on.
Could you tell me what in canon supports this statement? We only know him as a tag-along with the coolest trio in school. I didn't see anything that showed him as "good, loyal and true" - but I may have missed it, in which case I apologize.

Quote:
Originally Posted by heathurrr View Post
I can also see pettigrew being the type to 'ask' the sorting hat to be put into gryffindor.
As I see it, the Hat goes for the House qualities first, and only takes the sutdents' wishes when they show qualities of different Houses (It thought Harry could do well in Slytherin, and Hermione certainly would have fitted in Ravenclaw, but they both showed enough Gryffindor traits to be Sorted there.) I know I'm contradicting my earlier post, but I've thought more about it since, and the more I think about it, the less Gryffindor traits I see in PP.

I'm sticking with my explanation of it being a plot device, because JKR needed someone close enough to the Potters and the Marauders to be able to betray them.

On the thread "Did the Hat Mis-Sort Key Characters", Lunatic posted the link to a very interesting fan fic, in which the Sorting Hat comes out and says that he had deliberately sent some students where they did not belong. This is fan fic, not canon, but the idea really appealed to me, as applied to Wormtail.



Last edited by Muggle_Magic; May 24th, 2010 at 6:21 am.
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  #47  
Old May 24th, 2010, 6:56 am
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Re: Why was Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor? v3

Quote:
Originally Posted by willfitz View Post
Perhaps another quality that distinguishes Gryffindors is mule-like stubbornness. Consider:

Hat: You'd be good in Slytherin.
Harry: NO!
Hat: You sure?
Harry: YES!

Harry: Draco is a DE.
R&H: Not likely.
Harry: Yes, he is.
Dumbledore: Forget it.
Harry: I'm going to catch him.

Harry: Snape's bad
Dumbledore: Snape's good
Harry: no
DD: yes
Harry: no

F&G: We are opening a joke shop!
Molly: Over my deceased body!
F&G: Still doing it.
Molly: Even after I destroy your inventory?
F&G: Apparently, yes.

So, I can just see this:

Sirius and James: Go away!
Peter: No.
S&J: Please
Peter: No.

Hence, a Gryffindor.
This is a good point. Gryffindors seem quite . . .determined.


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Old May 27th, 2010, 6:33 pm
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Re: Why was Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor? v3

I kinda posted the response in the mis-sorted character thread, but here's my say:

I think people are sorted into houses based on the qualities they most highly prize. So that's how Hermione ends up in Gryffindor instead of Ravenclaw. Same thing with Wormtail. He worshiped James and Sirus growing up, and idolized their bravery. So daring and bravery were most important to him, like they were to Godric Gryffindor. You can be smart and cunning (Ravenclaw and Slytherin) but it depends on which one you think is most important. And that's going to determine which one is your dominate trait.

So...to sum it all up. I think 11 year old Peter thought bravery was most important - therefore, Gryffindor!


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Old May 27th, 2010, 8:26 pm
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Re: Why was Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor? v3

I think Peter was extremely brave in school -- not just in a selfish way either. Imgaine the trust he must have in his friends at that age. He turned himself into rat when his friends were a stag, a large dog and werewolf! Any of the three of them could have killed him on the spot -- especially Lupin who really didn't possess his senses when he transformed. But they didn't and they protected him on their adventures He made the leap as animagus and took the leap that his friends would protect him from being caught.


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Old May 28th, 2010, 1:47 am
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Re: Why was Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor? v3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muggle_Magic View Post
IMO, JKR put Pettigrew in Gryffindor as a plot device. She needed someone close enough to the Potters to be able to betray them. Pettigrew wasn't very brave, look at the way he pleaded for his life in the Shrieking Shack, and before that how terrified he (as Scabbers) was once he knew Sirius was out of Azkaban and hot on his trail.
I disagree. I think this (and other potentially controversial Sortings like those of Regulus, Snape, Neville, etc.) are not exceptions to the Potterverse's immutable rules committed by Rowling in the name of her plot, but rather, important thematically. If it is our choices that show what we are, what we are is not a fixed, immutable thing intrinsic to us and capable of correct determination with or without the use of magic. So Sorting is not this highly meaningful thing people make it out to be, a way to tell the smart from the stupid, the good from the bad, or what have you. It's a way to divide students evenly into four houses for school purposes, and to give the worldviews and values of the school's founders a home in the school. The "missorted" characters, as I see it, are examples of this important point.


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  #51  
Old May 28th, 2010, 3:48 am
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Re: Why was Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor? v3

The more I think about, the more I feel that Peter is thought to be misplaced only because he turned out "bad." You don't have to be good to be in Gryffindor. You have to have daring, nerve, and chivalry. It takes daring and nerve to betray your friends, the Order, and Dumbledore. He was chivalrous more or less as Death Eaters are like knights for Voldemort.


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  #52  
Old May 28th, 2010, 4:58 am
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Re: Why was Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor? v3

Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBug View Post
I think people are sorted into houses based on the qualities they most highly prize.
I'm not so sure about that. It's the qualities you have, and maybe the potential, not the qualities you admire and wish you had, that are determining factors - at least that's how I understand it. Harry was never much for "pure blood" or "cunning", yet the Hat considered him for Slytherin. But, like his parents, he was undoubtedly brave. And he would have nothing to do with Slytherin. For the Hat, the only other option was Gryffindor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
I think Peter was extremely brave in school -- not just in a selfish way either. Imgaine the trust he must have in his friends at that age. He turned himself into rat when his friends were a stag, a large dog and werewolf!
I'm not sure that one actually chooses what one will become as an Animagus, I mean I don't think Pettigrew decided to become a rat of his own will. He just did whatever it took to become an Animagus, and he turned into what was closest to his character - a rat, in every sense of the term. However, I must admit that I never liked Wormtail very much and I admit to being biased against him - though what I just posted is deducted from what I read in the books. None of them knew what animal they would be turned into.

I honestly don't think Minerva McGonagall thought she'd be a cat, or that Rita Skeeter that she'd be a bug (though there is something about being a fly on the wall, which would fit her pretty well. But she became a beetle, not a fly).

Anyway, I'm siding with those who think that Pettigrew didn't belong in Gryffindor. Not because he turned out bad, but because he showed himself a coward. Just my opinion.


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  #53  
Old May 28th, 2010, 9:26 am
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Re: Why was Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor? v3

Quote:
Originally Posted by FleurduJardin View Post
I'm not so sure about that. It's the qualities you have, and maybe the potential, not the qualities you admire and wish you had, that are determining factors - at least that's how I understand it. Harry was never much for "pure blood" or "cunning", yet the Hat considered him for Slytherin. But, like his parents, he was undoubtedly brave. And he would have nothing to do with Slytherin. For the Hat, the only other option was Gryffindor.
I should have clarified. I think the sorting hat takes the qualities you most highly prize out of the ones you have.

And about the Animagus, you do pick what you get to be. (Which makes it so much more awesome!) :o) James and Sirius transformed into large creatures on purpose so they could "corral" Lupin in werewolf form, and Peter transformed into a rat so he could push the knob on the whomping willow so they could go down the tunnel. Lupin explains this in PoA. But on a side note: why did Peter have to transform into a small animal to push the knot. Couldn't they just put a spell on a stick to fly and hit it?


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  #54  
Old May 28th, 2010, 8:13 pm
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Re: Why was Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor? v3

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Originally Posted by LittleBug View Post
I should have clarified. I think the sorting hat takes the qualities you most highly prize out of the ones you have.
I get you, but I still think that bravery is not a quality that Pettigrew had. Just my opinion, of course.

Quote:
And about the Animagus, you do pick what you get to be. (Which makes it so much more awesome!) :o) James and Sirius transformed into large creatures on purpose so they could "corral" Lupin in werewolf form, and Peter transformed into a rat so he could push the knob on the whomping willow so they could go down the tunnel. Lupin explains this in PoA. But on a side note: why did Peter have to transform into a small animal to push the knot. Couldn't they just put a spell on a stick to fly and hit it?
I missed that, thanks for setting me straight. Though to tackle a werewolf, I'd have chosen a gorilla or a bear rather than a stag and a big dog, LOL. And there are small animals as agile but more likeable than a rat...

Good point about how they could have used a stick and magic - or a long flexible stick, for that matter.


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Old May 28th, 2010, 8:37 pm
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Re: Why was Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor? v3

Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBug View Post

And about the Animagus, you do pick what you get to be. (Which makes it so much more awesome!)
The specific animal form is not chosen by the wizard, it is instead determined by their personality and inner traits. This means the person's Animagus form is a reflection of their inner nature.

19 October 2000

quote Does the animal one turns into as an Animagi reflect your personality?

Very well deduced, Narri! I personally would like to think that I would transform into an otter, which is my favorite animal. Imagine how horrible it would be if I turned out to be a cockroach!


March 4, 2004:

quote
Q: When you turn into an Animagus, can you choose what animal you become? Or does this get "assigned" to you?

JKR: No, you can't choose. You become the animal that suits you best. Imagine the humiliation when you finally transform after years of study and find that you most closely resemble a warthog.


Interview in 2005

quote Robert Dawson for Asda - If you were an animagus, what would you like to be?

JK Rowling: This always amuses me this idea. You see, you do not know what you are going to be until you have done it, so you might spend half a decade trying to turn into an animal and then find out you were a slug or something, which would be most unpleasant.


So when Peter turned into a rat, when he finally mastered the Animagus transformation, he was displaying elements of his inner nature which were quite predominate at that time. Imo.



Last edited by Annielogic; May 28th, 2010 at 8:52 pm. Reason: added quote
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Old May 28th, 2010, 8:41 pm
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Re: Why was Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor? v3

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Originally Posted by Annielogic View Post
So when Peter turned into rat, when he finally mastered the Animagus transformation, he is displaying elements of his inner nature which is quite predominate at that time. Imo.
That was exactly my point, thanks for confirming it.


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Old May 28th, 2010, 8:45 pm
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Re: Why was Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor? v3

Quote:
The question is pretty simple, why was peter in Gryffindor? We see him showing bravery at times but thats only in self-serving, a trait fit for Slytherin so why did the sorting hat put him in Gryffindor? Did the sorting hat go wrong for once?
A common mistake people make from my observations is that too many seem to think that all "evil" people belong in Slytherin, and Slytherin is itself "evil".

But not all Slytherins fit into a narrow definition of "self-serving". Lucius cared more about his son than serving Voldemort, even though loyalty to Voldemort may have been more able to guarentee personal survival.


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Old May 28th, 2010, 8:46 pm
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Re: Why was Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor? v3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Annielogic View Post
The specific animal form is not chosen by the wizard, it is instead determined by their personality and inner traits. This means the person's Animagus form is a reflection of their inner nature.

March 4, 2004:

quote
Q: When you turn into an Animagus, can you choose what animal you become? Or does this get "assigned" to you?

JKR: No, you can't choose. You become the animal that suits you best. Imagine the humiliation when you finally transform after years of study and find that you most closely resemble a warthog.


Interview in 2005

quote Robert Dawson for Asda - If you were an animagus, what would you like to be?

JK Rowling: This always amuses me this idea. You see, you do not know what you are going to be until you have done it, so you might spend half a decade trying to turn into an animal and then find out you were a slug or something, which would be most unpleasant.


So when Peter turned into rat, when he finally mastered the Animagus transformation, he is displaying elements of his inner nature which is quite predominate at that time. Imo.
That seems like such an undersight by JKR to me. Why bother trying to transform into animals at all if they didn't know they wouldn't be things a werewolf could kill? And in the book Lupin does explain that they transformed into large animals so they couldn't be harmed by him. I wonder if this is JKR contradicting herself. (Wouldn't be the first time.) Also, Rita Skeeter is an animagus as well and that's how she gets her scoops. How did she know she'd be something small enough to spy on people? It just seems silly to put all that work in if you can't choose what you want to be. If Peter had transformed into something large, their whole plan of getting down the whomping willow would have been ruined and they transformed into animagus for nothing. (Again, I still don't see why they couldn't have used a stick like Snape did.)


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Old May 28th, 2010, 8:54 pm
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Re: Why was Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor? v3

That's true. From book canon we actually know that James and Sirius decided to transform into something large, but that Peter didn't manage to transform into anything larger - this statement seems to imply that the wizard can choose as long as he's gifted enough to perform the spell into a large animal (as in: smaller animal is easier).

I think JK's statements from the interviews actually make more sense to me, but I don't quite bring them together with book!canon either.

Just... back to the thread question I'd say the whole animagus plot still shows some bravery on Peter's site. Sure, he had lots of help and I think it's to question if his motivation was rather to be with the cool gang in a cool event than to genuinly help out Remus; still it was 'brave' (for those who agree that bravery can be positively and negatively motivated).


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Old May 28th, 2010, 9:08 pm
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Re: Why was Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor? v3

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Originally Posted by gertiekeddle View Post
That's true. From book canon we actually know that James and Sirius decided to transform into something large, but that Peter didn't manage to transform into anything larger - this statement seems to imply that the wizard can choose as long as he's gifted enough to perform the spell into a large animal (as in: smaller animal is easier).
Lupin indicates "Sirius and James transformed into such large animals, they were able to keep a werewolf in check", I read that to mean they happened to transform into large animals, he doesn't say that's what they decided beforehand, which they adapted into their original plan to keep Lupin company. They found the substantial size of the animals proved useful to keep a werewolf under control. Oh well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gertiekeddle View Post
Just... back to the thread question I'd say the whole animagus plot still shows some bravery on Peter's site. Sure, he had lots of help and I think it's to question if his motivation was rather to be with the cool gang in a cool event than to genuinly help out Remus; still it was 'brave' (for those who agree that bravery can be positively and negatively motivated).
Yes, I agree, there would need to be some nerve and bravery, because an animagus transformation could go so horribly and drastically wrong. There was great risk, on personal level, involved. Imo.



Last edited by Annielogic; May 28th, 2010 at 9:24 pm. Reason: to clarify
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