The NFL Football Thread v2

[jordmundt6]

I think the animosity between cities has far more to do with it. The first time the Niners were good, the Raiders didn't exist yet. When the Raiders were dominant (with the Dolphins and Steelers in the '70s) the Niners were good but not great for part of it and downright AWFUL for the rest of the time. The Raiders and Niners were both good teams in the '80s. I think the Niners missed the playoffs twice in 10 years (the year the Bears won their title and the year after the Catch) and the Raiders were similarly relevant. They won in...was it two strike-shortened years? 1980 and 1983? However, there were no great collisions between the two franchises in that decade. The Niners lost a close and hotly disputed NFC title game to the Redskins as a prelude to the Raiders' last championship. In the '90s, the Niners were good but flummoxed by injury ('91 loss to the Giants that shortened Montana's career and opened the door for Young) and brash new dominance (two straight NFC Title Game losses to the Cowboys). Then they got stuck behind the Favre machine (including an NFC Title Game loss in...'97, was it? The Raiders were good but not great in the '90s First Bo got hurt, then they got thrashed by the Bills. Then, they were stuck in the much more celebrated and heated rivalry with the resurgent Chiefs. The only truly significant Niners/Raiders moment I can remember in my lifetime is the game where Rice scored three touchdowns to...wasn't that to own the touchdown record outright, or was it to pass Largent for touchdown receptions? Anyway, I think it was a Monday Night game and Young was forcing the ball to Rice to get the record. That is IT for big Niners/Raiders moments. The other significant moment--Rice being forced out of San Fran and heading to Oakland to prove he still had the talent for the game. They were real threats to win the Super Bowl tiwice (Tuck Rule Game and Gruden's TB Super Bowl). The rivalry with the Rams is more storied and heated.

[TheLastHorcrux]

ESPN reporting that the Colts have signed Kerry Collins as Peyton Manning's new backup. While I have some concerns about Collins, he's a much better QB than Painter or Orlovski. Orlovski will almost certainly be cut or moved to the practice squad in the next few days, Painter may follow once Manning is ready to play.

[magic_is_might]

Originally Posted by agilefalcon16

While I agree with you, the fact that the mishap occured at a 49ers/Raiders game does not surprise me. There is a huge rivalry not only between the fans of the two teams, but of the residents of the two cities as well.

No, I'm definitely not surprised - it's definitely expected between teams with great rivalries. Living in Illinois as a Packer fan - it can be bitter sometimes, considering Bears/Packers is one of the longest rivalries. I've never seen a fight like I saw on TV among 49/Raider fans, but the action is still despicable

[jordmundt6]

I'm really not sold on this. I don't know if Collins will be able to learn the offense fast enough, and I don't know if he's durable enough to withstand the Houston rush. Plus, there appears to be disquiet in the ranks over this.

Help me out. How is Raiders vs. Niners a great rivalry? As I stated in an earlier post, there aren't many memories or pivotal games associated with that rivalry. Really the rivalry between the cities was probably best captured during the Quake Series in '89, but that's baseball, not football.

[flimseycauldron]

I'm not entirely sold on Collins either, but he is better than what Indy's got now. I'd rather see someone like Kurt Warner...on second thoughts he'd be too good for them.

[jordmundt6]

Kurt Warner was forced to leave for the same reason Steve Young was forced to leave. Concussions. If he didn't have a history of them doing the following.

1. Sign Warner to a two year deal for as low as he'd take with the understanding that he's a security blanket and a mentor for Manning's heir apparent.

2. Obtain a quality young or youngish quarterback to school behind Manning and set him up as the heir apparent (a Flynn trade, or if they could wait, signing Flynn as a free agent next off-season) and have Warner mentor him and serve as the Colts' security blanket (much like Doug Flutie for the late '90s Bills).

However, because of concussions, that's not an option.

I personally think that Brady Quinn (yeah, THAT Brady Quinn could learn the offense and has the skills that he could be a viable option as Manning's heir). He's 27 now, he'd be a reliable back-up (certainly better than anyone they have and more durable than Collins) and he has the skills that from age 30-34 or 35 he'd be a solid, even flashy starter as Peyton gracefully bows into retirement at age 38 or 39.

Note--I dislike the Colts quite a lot now. That wasn't always the case. I actually rooted for the surrpising Harbaugh Colts of the mid-'90s, and I liked Faulk even before he transplanted to St. Louis. If they had Warner as the stand-in for Manning this year and did well, it would actually be a pleasure to watch that offense work instead of teeth-grinding with grudging respect.

[magic_is_might]

I guess I'll see how Collins does tomorrow However, just remember that it's all preseason. Hopefully Manning will be back at the helm come regular season.

And it looks like the same old story is resurfacing again for my team - injuries

[LightningScar97]

I think Manning will miss the first 2 gmaes of the regular season. They'll lose to Houston but beat Cleveland in the first 2 games.

[jordmundt6]

I don't know if Houston has the instinct to finish games and I really don't know if three weeks of reps would be enough for Collins (even a healthy Collins) to beat an improving Browns team that would definitely smell blood in the water if Manning weren't around.

I think it's stupid of the Colts to persist in not even trying to make a long-term plan for Manning's eventual successor. They risk imploding like the Cardinals if the neck injury doesn't heal properly and accumulating problems force Manning to retire two or three years before anyone might expect that he would. No one wants to be on that NFC West carousel. Seriously, it's three teams without a quarterback (well...if Kolb lives up to the hype, maybe we're down to just two teams). Arizona still makes this list with Kolb unproven. There is no plan in San Fran. Charlie Whitehurst is a capable backup, but I don't think he's a franchise quarterback (mercifully they've abandoned the Jackson experiment). So, out of the entire division, only St. Louis has a long-term plan (provided the offensive line improves and Bradford doesn't get POUNDED). That's just sad.

[magic_is_might]

Originally Posted by jordmundt6

I think it's stupid of the Colts to persist in not even trying to make a long-term plan for Manning's eventual successor. The risk imploding like the Cardinals if the neck injury doesn't heal properly and accumulating problems force Manning to retire two or three years before anyone might expect that he would.

Good point. Manning is, what, 35 years old? He's getting old, NFL-wise. 40 years old is basically the oldest for a typical QB. And his injuries/surgeries don't help. Teams with older QB's should already be preparing for the future, and that starts with looking into younger QB's.

[flimseycauldron]

Originally Posted by magic_is_might

Good point. Manning is, what, 35 years old? He's getting old, NFL-wise. 40 years old is basically the oldest for a typical QB. And his injuries/surgeries don't help. Teams with older QB's should already be preparing for the future, and that starts with looking into younger QB's.

Hmm, I agree to a certain extent. However Manning has two great things in his favor. He sits behind one of the best offensive lines in the league. It's easy to be a great QB when you rarely get hit or pressured. Secondly, the Colts, while a good team, are easily in one of the worse divisions in the league. And since you play each team in your division twice a year that's less time Manning has being challenged, both physically and mentally. He's nowhere near in as bad a shape as many QBs in the league are at his age (really this is the first real time his health has ever been up in the air) and there's a reason for that.

Originally Posted by jordmundt6

I don't know if Houston has the instinct to finish games and I really don't know if three weeks of reps would be enough for Collins (even a healthy Collins) to beat an improving Browns team that would definitely smell blood in the water if Manning weren't around.

I love Houston. They are my "pet" team. So much potential but they never seem to fire on all cylindars and they're never consistent. The Colts, even with Collins should handle them. The Browns, too, suffer from inconsistency but they have been around the block a time or two. They can exploit some of Indy's weaknesses but I still think Indy can pull it out.

Originally Posted by jordmundt6

I think it's stupid of the Colts to persist in not even trying to make a long-term plan for Manning's eventual successor. They risk imploding like the Cardinals if the neck injury doesn't heal properly and accumulating problems force Manning to retire two or three years before anyone might expect that he would. No one wants to be on that NFC West carousel. Seriously, it's three teams without a quarterback (well...if Kolb lives up to the hype, maybe we're down to just two teams). Arizona still makes this list with Kolb unproven. There is no plan in San Fran. Charlie Whitehurst is a capable backup, but I don't think he's a franchise quarterback (mercifully they've abandoned the Jackson experiment). So, out of the entire division, only St. Louis has a long-term plan (provided the offensive line improves and Bradford doesn't get POUNDED). That's just sad.

I think Kolb is a wash. I've really got nothing to back that up except instinct, though. As far as Indy making long term plans ---- they suffer from the "Manning Effect". They don't know how to operate without an ace QB. Their whole style of play needs a Manning, Brees, or Brady QB and, let's face it, there aren't alot of those types of QBs in the pipeline. They need to adjust their style of play rather than try to shoehorn a QB into their existing structure.

[magic_is_might]

Originally Posted by flimseycauldron

Hmm, I agree to a certain extent. However Manning has two great things in his favor. He sits behind one of the best offensive lines in the league. It's easy to be a great QB when you rarely get hit or pressured. Secondly, the Colts, while a good team, are easily in one of the worse divisions in the league. And since you play each team in your division twice a year that's less time Manning has being challenged, both physically and mentally. He's nowhere near in as bad a shape as many QBs in the league are at his age (really this is the first real time his health has ever been up in the air) and there's a reason for that.

Oh, I agree. He's definitely not as battered as many other QB. His o-line sees to that. But fact remains that he has only a few good years left. The Colts should begin to have some future plan in place. Unfortunately, it's inevitable.

I think Kolb is a wash. I've really got nothing to back that up except instinct, though. As far as Indy making long term plans ---- they suffer from the "Manning Effect". They don't know how to operate without an ace QB. Their whole style of play needs a Manning, Brees, or Brady QB and, let's face it, there aren't alot of those types of QBs in the pipeline. They need to adjust their style of play rather than try to shoehorn a QB into their existing structure.

I don't want to say for sure that Kolb is a wash since I just haven't seen enough of him playing to know for sure, but I agree - time to adjust your style of play instead of trying to force a QB into your current system. Change is difficult, but resisting it doesn't work in the NFL. If your system is broken or inefficient - fix it or your team is going to remain at the bottom of your division.

[flimseycauldron]

Originally Posted by magic_is_might

And it looks like the same old story is resurfacing again for my team - injuries

I love how the Pack stays under the radar. I didn't know they had alot of injuries so early on. Have you watched any of their preseason? How do they look?

[magic_is_might]

Originally Posted by flimseycauldron

I love how the Pack stays under the radar. I didn't know they had alot of injuries so early on. Have you watched any of their preseason? How do they look?

Well, Clay Matthews was out for a game, but I think it was minor - he should be back. Zombo, a LB, is now out with a broken shoulder. Not too many injuries, but I hope we have no more. We were lucky to have depth in our team roster last year that let us win the SB with 15 or so injuries affecting key players. I can't imagine doing another year of injuries again. I'd like to see my team at full strength and see our our potential with all our starters in (although I think our back-ups did a fine job last year).

Did not get to see the Browns game (living in Illinois is quite a disadvantage because it's really difficult to get all the Pack games here without paying a lot of money). We lost the Browns game, which is disappointing. But I saw replays and thought we did pretty well. I saw the Cards game and again, they played well.

Definitely looking forward to tonight - I actually get the Pack/Colts game

I just hope we get some kind of running game going this year, now that our RB, Grant, is back. Our running game is one of our glaring weaknesses.

Anyway, I've been keeping an eye out on the Patriots, and although their pre-season games were against the Jaguars and the Buccs (no offence meant), they're looking pretty sharp

[flimseycauldron]

Originally Posted by magic_is_might

Well, Clay Matthews was out for a game, but I think it was minor - he should be back. Zombo, a LB, is now out with a broken shoulder. Not too many injuries, but I hope we have no more. We were lucky to have depth in our team roster last year that let us win the SB with 15 or so injuries affecting key players. I can't imagine doing another year of injuries again. I'd like to see my team at full strength and see our our potential with all our starters in (although I think our back-ups did a fine job last year).

Considering that most back-ups are rookies I'd say they did more than fine!

Originally Posted by magic_is_might

Did not get to see the Browns game (living in Illinois is quite a disadvantage because it's really difficult to get all the Pack games here without paying a lot of money). We lost the Browns game, which is disappointing. But I saw replays and thought we did pretty well. I saw the Cards game and again, they played well.

I hear ya. We only have basic cable so ESPN games and the like are difficult for us (especially MNF) It's always difficult to lose to a team that is considered subpar but the Browns are one of those hit or miss teams. And it's only preseason. Did Rogers play?

Originally Posted by magic_is_might

I just hope we get some kind of running game going this year, now that our RB, Grant, is back. Our running game is one of our glaring weaknesses.

Things will cetainly open up now he's back in the mix.

Originally Posted by magic_is_might

Anyway, I've been keeping an eye out on the Patriots, and although their pre-season games were against the Jaguars and the Buccs (no offence meant), they're looking pretty sharp

None taken. What was scary about the Jag game was that when our starters were in we dominated and opened a big lead. We didn't score a single point in the second half with our back-ups. If I was BB I would worry about that...

[LightningScar97]

I think the Colts will still win the division because the Texans just don't have the deffensive talent.

[magic_is_might]

Wow. Did not expect that. Extremely impressed with how we pulled 11 points in a few minutes, considering how poorly I thought we did earlier.

Great game Colts - I honestly thought you guys had it - I was sure there was no way our sloppy rookies would pull it off.

Despite our win, there are several things that I had a problem with. Our running game wasn't impressive, like usual. And our o-line? Rodgers was sacked like 3 times Also penalties. Penalties make and break games for our team. Especially the one that cost us our TD.

A very sloppy win, with a great last minute performance by Harell, but I'll take it.

EDIT: I thought I should comment that I have no idea what our QB's were trying to do in the facial hair department, especially Rodgers mutton chops/handlebar mustache thing he was going for

[TheLastHorcrux]

Tonight was the first time in a long time that I was satisfied with the Colts' defense. Considering that Green Bay has one of the better offenses in the NFL, I was glad to see our starters keep their starters in check. I think Chip Vaughn is gonna be filling out applications at McDonalds tomorrow though. 2 personal fouls for bonehead mistakes on consecutive plays during that late touchdown drive. I really think the Colts would have pulled it off if not for that. Coach Caldwell did NOT look happy. I wish I could say I was satisfied with Painter but I saw this movie several times when he was at Purdue. He occasionally has a solid game but will go back to typical Matt Painter football next time. Consistency is a foreign concept to him.

[LightningScar97]

I think Kerry Collins is an underrated QB.

[TheLastHorcrux]

Peyton Manning was re-activated today. While I expected this, I can't pretend I'm not relieved. I certainly hope, not just as a Colts fan but for the sake of the league as a whole, that he doesn't suffer any lasting negative effects from this surgery, either as a player or in his personal life. It sounds like he has been doing workouts on his own for a while now and will join team practice on a limited basis this week. He will probably not play in the final preseason game but hopes to be ready for week 1. I'll still probably pick Houston in that game because last time he missed the entire preseason it took him a few weeks to shake off the rust.

While I am always careful to avoid putting too much stock in preseason games, I was particularly surprised by the New England-Detroit game. The Lions bandwagon is filling quickly and for good reason- they are definitely not the pushover they were as recently as the first half of last year. But I never expected to see them walk all over the Patriots' starters like they did. Part of me wants to give the Patriots a pass because the players had legitimate concerns related to Irene bearing down on their homes and families, but at the same time tough things happen in life all the time. The players train themselves to be able to put issues like that aside for a few hours at a time and focus completely on football.