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  #701  
Old January 4th, 2012, 2:02 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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Originally Posted by Wab View Post
The impression I got from the books is that Snape's motivations (if they can be simply expressed) boil down to anger. It's a common recruitment tool in RL extremist groups -- find people who feel or are badly treated and give that anger an external target. Snape was angry at the world and James' bullying gave him a concrete target.

And, yes, based on the book and the 2008 prequel James was at times a bully.
Snape's bigotry seems to have predated any contact with James, so blaming Snape's anger or bigotry on James is a stretch. Also, Snape's bigotry wasn't aimed at pureblood James, it was aimed at Muggles and Muggleborns. I guess James qualified for Blood Traitor status, as he objected to bigotry. In the book, Snape did go after and harass James and the Marauders, but its a chicken and egg thing when it came to who did what to whom. Trying to make Snape's actions just a reaction to James seems very offbase.

As for James being a bully during fifth year, that was fully explored and dealt with in the books, in my opinion-- most notably in OotP. What wasn't dealt with in earlier books was the bullying Snape engaged in as a student, which is what I feel TPT tackled.

And I'm not even sure where your coming from with your opinion-as-fact statement about James in the prequel. I don't see it.


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  #702  
Old January 4th, 2012, 2:25 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
Not as bad as the 'now you see them, now you don't' barrels in The Two Towers ...
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Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
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Not comfortable with Voldemort's hugging Draco -- just didn't fit, even though I can see what they might have been trying to do by having Draco not respond...showing that he wasn't coming to Voldemort's side or because of Lucius, he was only coming to his mother because she called to him.

I thought this was hilarious. In a good way. To me it just showed that Film Voldemort was kind of losing it.
I connected this with Voldemort's previous announcement: "Harry Potter is dead! Now you put your faith in me." He's trying to take Harry's place for these people. Hugging Draco is a manipulative attempt to supplant what he percieves as Harry's approach to leading them. Made my skin crawl. And I thought Fiennes was particularly brilliant in portraying how uncomfortable LV was with affection.


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  #703  
Old January 4th, 2012, 2:48 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
I connected this with Voldemort's previous announcement: "Harry Potter is dead! Now you put your faith in me." He's trying to take Harry's place for these people. Hugging Draco is a manipulative attempt to supplant what he percieves as Harry's approach to leading them. Made my skin crawl. And I thought Fiennes was particularly brilliant in portraying how uncomfortable LV was with affection.
Oh, I agree, it was seriously icky. Who would want to be hugged by Voldemort?! It is plain what Film Draco felt about that.


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  #704  
Old January 4th, 2012, 2:50 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

I'm sure these have been mentioned, but they bear repeating:

- Lavender Brown being dead. The book is fairly vague on this (she's attacked by Greyback, but it's never stated that it was a fatal attack), but the movie actually shows her dead body, as well as Parvati and Professor Trelawney mourning in the Great Hall. I dunno, it just feels gratuitous to add her to the list of casualties.
- Bellatrix exploding. The effect didn't even look very good. I always pictured Molly's final attack as a blast that hits Bellatrix so hard, the force and the impact of it is enough to kill her, rather than the spell itself.
- Voldemort dissolving into little flakes. Sure, I guess it looks more "climactic", but I think it'd be more fitting for him to just fall down dead. It proves that, despite all his misguided efforts to become immortal, he's still human in the end.
- Harry breaking the Elder Wand in half and throwing it off the bridge. Putting aside the fact that it's totally out of character, something tells me the Elder Wand should be a bit more indestructible than that. I remember people in the theater actually laughing at this moment, because it was just so unexpected.


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  #705  
Old January 4th, 2012, 3:57 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
If the film-makers were going to show Snape calling Lily Mudblood, then it's only fair they also show the context in which he called her that, i.e. he was being bullied by James at the time. The scene shows neither boy in a pleasant light. Showing this might have helped the audience get a glimpse of why Snape took a wrong turn in his youth, but I don't think it would have been aided the portrayal of Harry's father in the final film. So I can understand why the film-makers axed all of that.
I don't see it that way - no matter what the context, Snape was in the wrong, and inexcusably so, to throw a racist epithet at Lily. Audiences would have seen the charming Bellatrix carve that word into Hermione's arm and know that it was a terrible thing.

And what about the prophecy - the only one that makes look bad is Snape, and it was excluded. Without Snape's mistakes, it's not the Prince's Tale, it's just about a boy who loved a girl who loved someone else. Then she dies, through no fault of innocent movie-Snape and he's so very sad. Snape's story is about redemption - how many times has that been mentioned - yet, that doesn't come up in the movies, because Snape's misdeeds, Snape's worst actions are excluded. TPT is not a good rendition, because it leaves out the most important element - Snape's redemption - his change from being low and amoral enough to be willing to help destroy a family to someone who worked against Voldemort and tried to keep people safe. Without the redemption and change, it isn't accurate at all.

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By its very nature, an adaptation simplifies and compresses the source material. I've never seen any TV of film adaptation of a book which didn't do either of those two things, to some degree.
There's simplifying and compressing and there's changing the characters entirely. If they'd left out Bella's fondness for torture and cruelty and just left her obsessed with Voldemort, that would be changing her in a big way. Removing the depths Snape sank to, and his redemption storyline changes the character - it sanitises and whitewashes him.


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TPT allowed Snape his confession for his part in it, in my opinion, especially about what he had done to estrange Lily. I think excising that from the film would drastically change Snape, as he is then portrayed as an innocent who never reached enlightenment because he didn't need to;
I think that's a good point. I think TPT was about Snape acknowledging his mistakes, no longer hiding them away. He was admitting how he had hurt Harry - and Harry's family, by passing on the prophecy, not whining about how Lily loved someone else, which is what the movie version seems to focus on. It's about Snape recognising his mistakes and acknowledging them to the person he hurt most, not about Snape brooding because Lily loved someone else.

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Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
That is not what I said. What I said was that SWM gives a context as to why Snape hurled a racial insult at Lily. And, personally, I don't think the film narrative needed any of that.
Whatever the context, a racial insult is inexcusable. Whatever the context, Snape lashed out and hurt Lily, rather than the people who were hurting him. I think that makes Snape look pretty darn bad, myself and I don't consider the bullying as an extenuating circumstance for racist bile.

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And I don't agree at all that the films reduced Lily's character in such a way. Nowhere is she portrayed as a 'mere object of a crush'. The Lily childhood scenes were touching, and while Geraldine Somerville doesn't have much screen time, she does a lot with it! I really like her Lily, who comes over as a strong, loving woman.
I don't think movie-Lily comes across as strong. We don't see her at her strongest. Twice, book-Lily turned down the option of flouncing off into the sunset with a DE and instead chose what she held dear -first, her conscience and values, and later, her son.

We don't see Lily refusing to be part of Snape's DE path; we don't see Lily refusing to stand aside. As OldMotherCrow puts it, she's "reduced to the object of a crush". Apparently, all that matters in the movie version is that Snape wanted her, and she loved someone else. She's not the brave young woman who refused to stand by a DE, she's not the brave young woman who refused to stand aside and watch her child die.


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Originally Posted by Wab View Post
And, yes, based on the book and the 2008 prequel James was at times a bully.
Really? I got the impression from the prequel that while James was cheeky, he and Sirius actually saved the policeman from the DEs (Snape's colleagues, by the way). Big difference between rudeness and attempted murder, IMO.

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Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow View Post
As for James being a bully during fifth year, that was fully explored and dealt with in the books, in my opinion-- most notably in OotP. What wasn't dealt with in earlier books was the bullying Snape engaged in as a student, which is what I feel TPT tackled.
I agree. TPT was about Snape's flaws, and his growth away from being a dangerous criminal to being someone with respect for the lives of others. The movie version completely overlooks the idea of Snape's change and development; there's no redemption, because movie-Snape is a sad little innocent.

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
I connected this with Voldemort's previous announcement: "Harry Potter is dead! Now you put your faith in me." He's trying to take Harry's place for these people. Hugging Draco is a manipulative attempt to supplant what he percieves as Harry's approach to leading them. Made my skin crawl. And I thought Fiennes was particularly brilliant in portraying how uncomfortable LV was with affection.
I find that scene really creepy. It weirded me out, but I do think that it worked - it was Voldemort's way of unnerving people even more - they wouldn't know what to expect from him.

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Originally Posted by jbwarner86 View Post
- Lavender Brown being dead. The book is fairly vague on this (she's attacked by Greyback, but it's never stated that it was a fatal attack), but the movie actually shows her dead body, as well as Parvati and Professor Trelawney mourning in the Great Hall. I dunno, it just feels gratuitous to add her to the list of casualties.
jbwarner86! I wasn't sure about that, either - I liked it that it was left ambiguous in the book - I like the idea of Lavender surviving Greyback's attack, just as Bill did.


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- Voldemort dissolving into little flakes. Sure, I guess it looks more "climactic", but I think it'd be more fitting for him to just fall down dead. It proves that, despite all his misguided efforts to become immortal, he's still human in the end.
I agree. I think that was really shown in the book - his death was a "mundane finality", not a bizarre explosion into confetti.


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  #706  
Old January 4th, 2012, 4:59 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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But [the Elder Wand] didn't belong to him. It's allegiance switched to him, but the actual, physical wand belonged to Draco.... I just don't see how showing him repairing his wand and telling Ron and Hermione he was going to dispose of the Elder Wand by putting it back where it belonged, wherever he decided that would be would make such a difference to his morality. In the film this wouldn't be a problem as nobody knew about it so there wouldn't be any Young Guns coming after him to get the Elder Wand..
Replied to in the Elder Wand Thread


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  #707  
Old January 4th, 2012, 5:07 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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I think that was really shown in the book - his death was a "mundane finality", not a bizarre explosion into confetti.
"a bizarre explosion into confetti" -

I completely agree with this, and think it's the perfect description. The most disappointing moment to me in the entire film, above all else, was this moment. Voldemort should have been shown to be nothing less than a dead body, and worthy of nothing more special than what the others who died got. In fact, he deserved less, i think. He should have been left there with the other bodies for awhile, with no one standing over him and mourning him.

So what if he didn't have a complete soul, and supposedly that was the reason he became confetti? He had a complete body (well, minus nose, hair, etc.). He deserved a mundane ending.

My opinion.


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  #708  
Old January 4th, 2012, 6:25 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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I agree. I think that was really shown in the book - his death was a "mundane finality", not a bizarre explosion into confetti.
I don't mind seeing Bellatrix explode, but I wanted to see Voldemort drop down dead.


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  #709  
Old January 4th, 2012, 6:51 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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I don't mind seeing Bellatrix explode, but I wanted to see Voldemort drop down dead.
Didn't we all? Well I'm sure that Kloves and Yates thought that Voldemort dissolving into confetti filled some artistic purpose, I think it was to get a 3D effect into the last part of the film myself. I wouldn't have minded so much if it did fulfill a purpose other than how 3D works, but it didn't fit into the storyline. As you and others have said, death was Voldemort's greatest fear. Dissolving into artistic flakes is not the same as just one more dead body lying in the grounds. The dead body is finality, Voldemort was not special, and his dead body would have shown that. It also would have proved that he was dead. The lack of curiosity shown in Harry's stroll through Hogwarts was...astounding. Filch was more interested in picking up bricks than asking what happened to Voldemort.


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  #710  
Old January 4th, 2012, 7:05 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

But you can SEE the fear on Voldemort's face as he realises that his death is imminent. Turning into confetti still means the end of his existence! - which is what he feared. I'm not crazy about the confetti effect, and I'd have preferred a dead body. But what Voldemort feared most did come upon him.

As for the subdued ending, it bothered me at first but I liked it more on subsequent viewings.


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  #711  
Old January 4th, 2012, 7:55 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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Didn't we all?
Ummmm, no.

I actually liked it either way. The movie version was a good ending as well. There is no body to memorialize, to enshrine, to mark that this monster even existed. After all his murders and machinations to ensure his immortality, at death he had even less than every other human being is afforded. I thought it very symbolic.


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  #712  
Old January 4th, 2012, 8:31 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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Ummmm, no.

I actually liked it either way. The movie version was a good ending as well. There is no body to memorialize, to enshrine, to mark that this monster even existed. After all his murders and machinations to ensure his immortality, at death he had even less than every other human being is afforded. I thought it very symbolic.
^ This! Plus, for me personally I had mixed emotions about Voldemort's death in the film. On one hand there was it was satisfying because he realises what's happened and screams in pain and fear - which is what he deserves. But on the other hand I really felt sorry for him! And I think the birds-eye-view shot of Voldemort dissolving away and panning up to the sunrise is absolutely stunning! One of my favourite shots in the entire saga. If Voldemort was just a dead body, I don't think any of that could have happened.


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  #713  
Old January 4th, 2012, 8:37 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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But you can SEE the fear on Voldemort's face as he realises that his death is imminent. Turning into confetti still means the end of his existence! - which is what he feared. I'm not crazy about the confetti effect, and I'd have preferred a dead body. But what Voldemort feared most did come upon him.

As for the subdued ending, it bothered me at first but I liked it more on subsequent viewings.
We saw it, the make up made it a bit difficult actually, but whatever, we the audience saw something. The general population of the characters in the film universe saw nothing. I kind of think that was important, Voldemort was not threatening the audience in the theater, he was a character in the film who was threatening the other characters. It was important in the context of the film that his death was confirmed, it really wasn't. I know, the confetti was a great visual effect, that added nothing to the story.


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  #714  
Old January 4th, 2012, 8:46 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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We saw it, the make up made it a bit difficult actually, but whatever, we the audience saw something. The general population of the characters in the film universe saw nothing. I kind of think that was important, Voldemort was not threatening the audience in the theater, he was a character in the film who was threatening the other characters. It was important in the context of the film that his death was confirmed, it really wasn't. I know, the confetti was a great visual effect, that added nothing to the story.
Good point - the last time Voldemort disappeared, he left no body, and fourteen years later, returned. Without proof of his death, people would fear that Voldemort could return again.


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  #715  
Old January 4th, 2012, 10:25 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

What bothered me the most about the film was the inclusion of the duel between Molly and Bellatrix. it disrupted the flow of the showdown sequence by cutting away from what the audience (at least I) wanted to see after almost 8 films: The final confrontation between Harry and Voldemort.

The Molly/Bellatrix duel felt like half-hearted fan-service because it failed to translate the theme of the book scene about the power of mother love to the screen in an impactful way due to the lack of gravity in its execution, but more importantly because it had no purpose in the film. The lack of build-up only served to emphasize how out of place it was and how little impact it made; Bellatrix disarming Ginny was a blink-and-you-miss-it moment and Molly was in my opinion too calm when shouting her infamous line given the gravity of the situation. It was just poorly executed: Why did the other Weasleys stand around passively in the background rather than help her? They were not seen preoccupied fighting anyone else. Where was the intensity throughout and impact for killing of one of the most hated characters in the series? Lost due to a predictably choreographed duel.

For all the invalid critisism about Harry being out of character for snapping the wand and for not catching up with Narcissa to give her his wand, why are there no complaints about the satisfied look on Molly's face after killing a person? Once again I suspect nuance in characterization (or lack of thereof as in this case) doesn't matter as much as the relief of the filmmakers sticking to canon.



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Old January 4th, 2012, 10:39 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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Good point - the last time Voldemort disappeared, he left no body, and fourteen years later, returned. Without proof of his death, people would fear that Voldemort could return again.
There were no witnesses in the courtyard. I know it's useless to complain about every scene in the film, I suppose I just think about the lost opportunities of the Harry Potter films and ask myself what did the screenwriter and director read. I know that an adaptation aint going to be a literal lifting of the text to the screen but I would have liked something that at least bore some resemblance to the text. The book was the reason I paid my money to see the film. I sure wouldn't have paid money to see HBP again.


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  #717  
Old January 4th, 2012, 10:52 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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....why are there no complaints about the satisfied look on Molly's face after killing a person? Once again I suppose nuance in characterization (or lack of thereof as in this case) doesn't matter as much as the relief of the filmmakers sticking to canon.
I didn't like how this scene was done as well, for all the reasons you stated. I didn't get the feeling Ginny was in danger, and I can't see Molly getting that smug look at the end, either.

In truth, everything up to and including the scene where Harry drops out of Hagrid's arms and fires a shot at Nagini was perfect, in my book. I liked nothing else that came after it, except for the epilogue, even though Ginny was made up to look like a 1950's housewife, Hermione looked like my grandma, and Ron didn't look like Ron at all. But I did enjoy the scene - the acting, script, etc.


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  #718  
Old January 4th, 2012, 11:00 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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There were no witnesses in the courtyard.
Actually, there were a few. And I suspect Neville saw it from the entrance door.


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Old January 4th, 2012, 11:41 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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Snape's bigotry seems to have predated any contact with James, so blaming Snape's anger or bigotry on James is a stretch. Also, Snape's bigotry wasn't aimed at pureblood James, it was aimed at Muggles and Muggleborns. I guess James qualified for Blood Traitor status, as he objected to bigotry. In the book, Snape did go after and harass James and the Marauders, but its a chicken and egg thing when it came to who did what to whom. Trying to make Snape's actions just a reaction to James seems very offbase.
Which is entirely not what I said. I said the anger was pre-existing but his treatment at Hogwarts pushed him over the edge.

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And I'm not even sure where your coming from with your opinion-as-fact statement about James in the prequel. I don't see it.
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  #720  
Old January 5th, 2012, 1:20 am
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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I know that an adaptation aint going to be a literal lifting of the text to the screen but I would have liked something that at least bore some resemblance to the text. The book was the reason I paid my money to see the film. I sure wouldn't have paid money to see HBP again.
I think this would be my last question regarding this line of discussion.

If for instance the books were to follow how the films were, would you have these criticisms in the first place? For instance what if Harry broke the Elder wand in the books and threw it into the chasm as it happened in DH2? Would that somehow make DH2 so much better because their deviation is lessened?

I'd rather not have the answer "I don't know it didn't happen that way we may never know," but I want you to think about the question and answer as honestly as possible.


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