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  #721  
Old January 5th, 2012, 10:35 am
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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Originally Posted by FleurDeLaPointe View Post
I think this would be my last question regarding this line of discussion.

If for instance the books were to follow how the films were, would you have these criticisms in the first place? For instance what if Harry broke the Elder wand in the books and threw it into the chasm as it happened in DH2? Would that somehow make DH2 so much better because their deviation is lessened?

I'd rather not have the answer "I don't know it didn't happen that way we may never know," but I want you to think about the question and answer as honestly as possible.
What can I say as you ask me not to speak about book canon, but lets look at what you say. What if Rowling had written that Harry had snapped the Wand instead of putting it away where no one could find it. It's hard to imagine Rowling being such a poor writer to tell the truth. I admire the way she weaves the threads of her narrative into a kind of tapestry. Truth to tell the film more than anything else shows how when you change one thread in her storyline that then impacts on another line you didn't see at the time. It wasn't until Noldus wrote what a great scene it was when Harry broke the wand that it got me to thinking why I didn't like the scene. I've never watched the film again, I had no intention of watching it again. I was really angry when I left the theater. DH1 wasn't that bad, I quite enjoyed it so my hopes were kind of high. I think it was my crushed hopes that made me take such a strong stance against the film. Even those that liked it can point to a scene or two that they hated. Back to Harry and his snapping the Wand in half. The first thing that bothered me about that, and all the other people in the theater who laughed when they saw the scene, was how puny the Wand looked when he snapped it. I've stated before that I think as the most powerful wand in the world it would not have looked...so beat up as it did in the film. I remember how strong the Horcruxes were, how the Stone was practically indestructible and Harry's cloak looked new in the film and this was confirmed by canon. So it didn't make sense to me that the Elder Wand could be just, snapped n half like it was in the film. If the Wand could be so easily destroyed I think Dumbledore would have done it before he foresaw what a problem it could e if Voldemort ever got his hands on it and turned it on Harry. Dumbledore did see the problem.

So that's my first quibble, how it could be snapped like a rotten twig in the first place.? My second is Harry's characterization. Why is Harry breaking a Wand in half that nobody knows is the Elder Wand, the Deathstick etc., etc. Nobody knows he has it. Ollivander does not believe it really exists and Mr Lovegood believes so many strange things that the WW laughs at him for, who is going to take seriously his claim that the fairy tale Hallows are real. Would anybody today go looking for Cinderella's pumpkin coach? There is no dialog between Voldemort and Harry in the film about the Wand. For a film titled Deathly Hallows it never mentions the Hallows after the first 15 minutes.
So back to why Harry is breaking the Wand, well he says in the film that he wants a quiet life and who could blame him, but why is breaking the Wand necessary for this? Who is going to come after the Wand? Nobody knows about it. So is he breaking the Wand so he wont be tempted to use it? He is the Master of the Wand after all, he is the only one on that bridge who could use it. But we know that Harry would never use it, don't we? Well that is something we will never know. Rowling never wrote the disposal of the Wand in that fashion, so the question of Harry being unable to trust himself with the Wand never arises, except when you start looking for a rational reason why Harry in the film felt it was imperative that he broke the Wand then and there.

The thing with the Malfoys came up in my mind when I started to pull those threads. Harry's own wand is broken and he does not repair it. This leaves him with Draco's wand. This led me to remember the last shot of the Malfoys walking to England from the remotest part of the Scottish Highlands. A landscape that in the film has the alarming tendency to spring forth prototype Grand Canyons. And poor Narcissa has on high heels...and there isn't a wand that this PureBlood Wizard family have in their possession to share. Now some may think that they can survive without a wand, I think she, Lucius and Draco would not have the faintest idea of how to survive in a world without a wand. There may be a very few wizards in the world that can do wandless magic but I think we never see one, in the book or in the film. Harry has in his possession the last wand of the Malfoy family. In the book Harry's characterization is such that he felt that he owed Narcissa and he is genuinely a kind person. He saved Draco in the ROR, would he see Narcissa wandless? In the book there is time to deal with this, there is no dramatic stomping away to an uncertain future. The Malfoys are still there and presumably manage a way to get to their home. I'm just saying that it is not inconceivable that Harry gave Narcissa Draco's wand to use till they could get others. It fits in with the text IMO and with Harry's character.

This has gone a long time and I've made it as clear as I could. Maybe I have errors in judgment in there, I'm not perfect and I'm not saying that anybody who reads this is bound to agree with me. What I do ask is a fair reading without saying 'You don't see things my way so your wrong.' I find myself comparing the film to the book, that's true. The film is an adaptation of the book, what else can I compare it to?



Last edited by MsJPotter; January 5th, 2012 at 10:37 am.
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  #722  
Old January 5th, 2012, 3:09 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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It was just poorly executed: Why did the other Weasleys stand around passively in the background rather than help her? They were not seen preoccupied fighting anyone else. Where was the intensity throughout and impact for killing of one of the most hated characters in the series? Lost due to a predictably choreographed duel.
I do agree that it was poorly done - I wanted more fire in Molly's famous line and more energy and emotion in that fight.

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For all the invalid critisism about Harry being out of character for snapping the wand and for not catching up with Narcissa to give her his wand, why are there no complaints about the satisfied look on Molly's face after killing a person? Once again I suspect nuance in characterization (or lack of thereof as in this case) doesn't matter as much as the relief of the filmmakers sticking to canon.
Characterisation throughout the films, including DH2, has been shoddy and not in keeping with the books, IMO. I don't see why this is the one example to settle on.

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Which is entirely not what I said. I said the anger was pre-existing but his treatment at Hogwarts pushed him over the edge.
His decisions, his responsibility, nobody else's.


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  #723  
Old January 5th, 2012, 5:00 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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Naturally. Not everybody's opinions are as black and white as you might think. Yes, DH 2 was in my opinion a great film, but certainly not perfect. Nothing really is. However some of us choose to judge these films based on their cinematic qualities as opposed to how much they resemble the books.
I wasn't expecting perfection, I really wasn't. I was expecting a film that was above average. This was a film adapted from a book I loved. Maybe I loved it too much, maybe I knew it too well. And it started out good. Helena Bonham Carter's Hermione was hilarious. The production values through out the films have consistently been wonderful. As much as I dislike the film scripts and direction, I have to admit the world presented in it is pretty much spot on, well except for the WW costumes, but I can accept that it's easier to go to Top Shop and buy up 50 teeshirts and jeans than design costumes for the Trio and the other students. And robe is kind of indefinite, so OK, Muggle clothing is easier. But it's still a cheap way out.
Great cinema for me is not a spectacular shot. A spectacular shot is...spectacular, but it still has to make sense in the storyline. It's no use having a great shot of the Malfoys just leaving, but not if someone then asks, with perfect sincerity...'How are they going to get where they're going?'. If a mundane question makes anybody scratch their head and wonder the same thing then that spectacular shot becomes a lot less spectacular. A spectacular shot of Harry snapping the Wand in half is spectacular, and it could be a legitimate interpretation that he just wanted rid of the darn thing so nobody would come after it, but then IMO, little things start to beg to be asked. Who knew besides the Trio what the Wand actually was? Why didn't Harry mend his own wand first? How come the Wand was so easy to break when the Stone was next to being indestructible and the Cloak was like new? And if Harry didn't break the Wand to live a quiet life free from future hassle from the nonexistent horde that knew about the Wand then why did he break it? Distrust of himself perhaps? That's the next logical reason. He didn't trust himself not to use it in the future. Logic does play a part in cinema, the plot has to make sense. All the spectacular shots in the world does not help if what they are showing is upside down logically.
Of course if the spectacular shot is of something that is logical, such as Omar Sharif riding his camel out of the desert through a shimmering heat haze...then you have something magical and special.


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  #724  
Old January 5th, 2012, 6:16 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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The production values through out the films have consistently been wonderful. As much as I dislike the film scripts and direction, I have to admit the world presented in it is pretty much spot on, well except for the WW costumes, but I can accept that it's easier to go to Top Shop and buy up 50 teeshirts and jeans than design costumes for the Trio and the other students. And robe is kind of indefinite, so OK, Muggle clothing is easier. But it's still a cheap way out.
Maybe, but I suspect that was done in an effort to maintain relatability with the audience. I think Yates and Heyman were concerned with teenagers identifying with the trio in more ways than one. It seems a lot of HP fans, as they grew up along with the series, wanted to see it get more hard-edged and "cooler", thus the many complaints about the first two films even though those capture the spirit (and in most cases, letter) of the first two books very well.


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  #725  
Old January 5th, 2012, 6:24 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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Maybe, but I suspect that was done in an effort to maintain relatability with the audience. I think Yates and Heyman were concerned with teenagers identifying with the trio in more ways than one. It seems a lot of HP fans, as they grew up along with the series, wanted to see it get more hard-edged and "cooler", thus the many complaints about the first two films even though those capture the spirit (and in most cases, letter) of the first two books very well.
The Muggle clothing for the kids started, I believe, in PoA. I've read somewhere (or maybe seen on a DVD feature) that the primary reasoning behind the change was that the kids just did a better job of acting when they were dressed in more comfortable garb.

So yes, I'd personally like to see the kids dressed in Wizarding robes. But on film, I'll take better acting over more accurate attire. These were, after all, child actors, not adult professionals. And if the filmmakers needed to make this sort of concession in order to get better performances, then I'm fine with that.

By the time we get to DH2, the pattern was established. And anyway, don't the Trio where Muggle clothes in the book while they're on the run? Or was that just what I was seeing in my own mind while I was reading?


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  #726  
Old January 5th, 2012, 7:33 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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The Muggle clothing for the kids started, I believe, in PoA. I've read somewhere (or maybe seen on a DVD feature) that the primary reasoning behind the change was that the kids just did a better job of acting when they were dressed in more comfortable garb.

So yes, I'd personally like to see the kids dressed in Wizarding robes. But on film, I'll take better acting over more accurate attire. These were, after all, child actors, not adult professionals. And if the filmmakers needed to make this sort of concession in order to get better performances, then I'm fine with that.

By the time we get to DH2, the pattern was established. And anyway, don't the Trio where Muggle clothes in the book while they're on the run? Or was that just what I was seeing in my own mind while I was reading?
Whatever the reasoning behind the decision, I never really saw this as a big deal. For one thing, we can obviously draw a generational line and suppose that younger witches and wizards had a tendency to adopt different customs and fashions, and I think it's not hard to accept that Muggle tendencies might be among them.

But beyond that explanation, let's not forget that of the trio, two grew up as Muggles and had little notion of robes to begin with. Just as jeans and t-shirts would be more comfortable for the actors, they would have likely been for the characters as well.

Where Ron is concerned, I don't think he grew up in a terribly insular environment, what with his father's love of Muggle technology. In contrast to certain families in which purity and pride were emphasized, I don't think there's any particular reason why Ron would be required to wear robes except in the same perfunctory way as Muggleborn students.


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Old January 5th, 2012, 7:44 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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So yes, I'd personally like to see the kids dressed in Wizarding robes. But on film, I'll take better acting over more accurate attire. These were, after all, child actors, not adult professionals. And if the filmmakers needed to make this sort of concession in order to get better performances, then I'm fine with that.

By the time we get to DH2, the pattern was established. And anyway, don't the Trio where Muggle clothes in the book while they're on the run? Or was that just what I was seeing in my own mind while I was reading? :lol
Hermione had robes in her beaded bag when they fell off the dragon into the lake, though the texyt does mention that Harry had a tear in his jeans. The girl liked to be prepared. There was robes hanging in Grimmauld Place kitchen.The Trio must have looked like wizards to the Snatchers. So, yes I think they must have been wearing Wizard Robes.



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  #728  
Old January 5th, 2012, 11:31 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

If the discussion here is going to be snappy and sarcastic, with people simply arguing with each other instead of trying to be polite, agree to disagree and get on with discussing the topic, the thread would be better off closed.


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  #729  
Old January 5th, 2012, 11:47 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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Why the attitude toward 'childrens books'? A book is either good or bad, not grown up or child.
This is like arguing that, for example, the handling of the theme of racism in HP stands comparison to the handling of the same theme in Schindler's List.

There is no possible comparison.


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  #730  
Old January 5th, 2012, 11:52 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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This is like arguing that, for example, the handling of the theme of racism in HP stands comparison to the handling of the same theme in Schindler's List.

There is no possible comparison.
I agree there's no comparison, but I think that's because it's fantasy universe compared with horrible real-world events, moreso than because it's childrens' fiction and adult fiction.


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  #731  
Old January 6th, 2012, 5:12 am
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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This is like arguing that, for example, the handling of the theme of racism in HP stands comparison to the handling of the same theme in Schindler's List.

There is no possible comparison.

I beg, most humbly to differ. It doesn't usually do well to just give chidlren, when we are education them, all the straight and horrid facts right up front. A little fiction pointed in the correct direction, will give them the gentle thought processes that lead up to higher thinking and cognition. Very much like being able to handle the them of racism in comparision to the handling of Schindler's list.


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  #732  
Old April 14th, 2012, 5:09 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

Near the end.
Harry should get his wounds treated then he fixes his broken wand.


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  #733  
Old May 23rd, 2012, 7:59 am
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

The elder wand has been cracked, first when Voldemorte took down the defences of Hogwarts then when his own curse went back through it instead of killing Harry. As Harry was the true owner of the wand I can see that he would have the power to snap it and discard it. Then again looking at the solid Draco wand he was using, I couldn't see that snapping easily but then Harry's own wand was snapped when Hermione's curse rebounded in Godric's Hollow. We need Ollivander to give us a lesson in wandlore to figure it out.


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  #734  
Old May 23rd, 2012, 4:25 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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Originally Posted by ccollinsmith View Post
The Muggle clothing for the kids started, I believe, in PoA. I've read somewhere (or maybe seen on a DVD feature) that the primary reasoning behind the change was that the kids just did a better job of acting when they were dressed in more comfortable garb.
I became a fan of the series after I saw POA the film. Part of it was the grander scale of Cuaron's world set in real-life places and not just all filmed on stages or at picture-perfect castles with perfectly manicured lawns - it was more relatable to me while still being stylized. Part of it, too, was the wardrobe choices and putting the kids in jeans and sweatshirts. I related to them more in those kinds of cloths than I ever did when they were wearing stuffy prep-school outfits made up to look like wizard robes.

As the series continued I thought less and less about the distracting wardrobe and more and more about the characters so that by the time the trio are riding the dragon out of Gringotts it didn't matter to me if they were wearing robes, jeans or itsy bitsy teeny weenie yellow polka dot bikinis. (Though that would have been mighty distracting, )

I also think I remember JKR saying that students would wear jeans and tee shirts underneath the robes (at one point Harry, I think, is said to put something in the pocket of his jeans between classes) so I started picturing the robes as less like flowing fully-length dress-type things and more as sort of how they are in the films: like graduation robes but open down the front and instead of a white shirt, tie, sweater vest and black pants/skirts underneath the student could wear anything they wanted; their jeans and tee-shirts, skirts, blouses, whatever. This comfortably bridges the gap for me between stuffy prep-school clothing and muggle street cloths in the series and makes the wardrobe in the films okay for me.

Except for the 1970s vibe of everything. I just didn't get that at all and didn't like it at all. The colors, the cuts of the cloths, the fabrics chosen, the long hair on the boys... didn't like any of that.


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Old May 23rd, 2012, 7:28 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

How Voldemort was tissue paper all along. -.-

I wanted there to be a scene where they had to handle his corpse. I think it would have made the movie a bit more powerful. I don't know why, but, just....


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Old May 24th, 2012, 1:29 am
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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How Voldemort was tissue paper all along. -.-

I wanted there to be a scene where they had to handle his corpse. I think it would have made the movie a bit more powerful. I don't know why, but, just....
[Harry, Hermione, and Ron are standing on the viaduct.]

Ron [sniffing the air]: "Ew! What's that smell?"
Harry: "I don't know, but it's awful."
Hermione: "The smell is coming from Voldemort's corpse."
Ron: "How is that you know that?"
Hermione [exasperated]: "It's in Hogwarts: A History. It says that corpses smell."
Harry: "Well, let's get rid of it."

[The trio walk over to Voldemort's corpse and drag it to the precipice.]

Harry: "On the count of three, push. One, two, three!"

[The trio push Voldemort's corpse over the edge.]

Ron: "And down he goes! Alright!"

[Scene ends with Harry, Hermione, and Ron giving each other high-fives.]


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Old March 12th, 2013, 1:35 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

For some reason I was disappointed with Snape's death. I mean I was disappointed with it when I read the book because I always harbored a strange wish to see Snape and Voldemort duel. Though in the book I kind of thought "oh well, no could predict they'd be trapped in a floating orb with a giant snake. Poor Snape " In the movie though Voldemort kind of 'slashes' Snape in what was reminiscent to me as a non-verbal Sectumsempra! Then he's killed off by Nagini.

I know it's such a trivial and minute issue and I'm aware it's not that big of a deal, but my personal bias towards certain elements of the story leads me to feel indignant at certain embellishes/cuts in the films.


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Old March 12th, 2013, 6:51 pm
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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How Voldemort was tissue paper all along. -.-

I wanted there to be a scene where they had to handle his corpse. I think it would have made the movie a bit more powerful. I don't know why, but, just....
How Voldemort, Bellatrix and Nagini all turned to confetti when they died. Seriously?? Repetitive, making no sense and ignoring one of the big themes of the books (again).


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  #739  
Old March 13th, 2013, 3:25 am
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

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How Voldemort, Bellatrix and Nagini all turned to confetti when they died. Seriously?? Repetitive, making no sense and ignoring one of the big themes of the books (again).
Just to clarify, I don't think they were the same effects. Voldemort seemed to sort of peel away (as burning paper). Then, to my eye Bellatrix was shattered T-1000 style, then those fragments evanesced or something. And Nagini seems to have... half boiled half splattered. Given the overall propensity of the films to lean on the "puff of smoke" effect, I think you're right that they're insipidly similar, but I wanted to point out that they are distinct from one another.


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Old March 13th, 2013, 3:57 am
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Re: Things that bothered you about the final film

It's infuriating to me that Harry defeating Voldemort once and for all was more or less ignored by everyone else in the battle. I mean, Harry prevents Malfoy from destroying Neville's Remembrall in first year and everyone whoops, hollers and swarms him. He defeats, once and for all, the most powerful dark wizard of all time, and they incline their heads in his general direction. No one even tries to get a look.

It was incredibly anticlimactic, I feel.

I guess I never realized that the way that scene happened in the Great Hall in the books wasn't suspenseful and exciting, and was in such dire need of remodelling.


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