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Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6



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  #441  
Old March 5th, 2012, 6:53 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by sparrowinwinter View Post
That is very possible, maybe Albus did tell him what really happened that day when Sirius escaped and told him about Pettigrew. Then again, maybe not, maybe he only found out after returning to Voldy and seeing Pettigrew.

Yes...he didn't appear to want Sirius dead so much in OotP, though I think he was very much enjoying himself while provoking and snarking at him and he definitely didn't shed a tear when he died. In fact, he might have even made a mental note to thank Bellatrix. I'm just joking, but bottom line, he really really really really hated Sirius.
I think once Snape understood the situation, he accepted that Sirius had not betrayed the Potters. In PoA, like everyone else, he didn't know what was going on. He is shocked to see Sirius in the castle at the end of GoF, but he accepts his right to be there and he shakes hands with him.

No, Snape wasn't fond of Sirius, and there's no reason why he should be. But I don't think he would have thanked Bellatrix for killing Sirius, and I personally don't believe he wanted Sirius dead, mainly because it would be one less protector for Harry. At the beginning of HBP, Dumbledore wasn't sure that Kreacher would be loyal to Harry instead of Bellatrix, and she was possibly the heir apparent for the House of Black. While Sirius was alive (and at home) in Grimmauld Place, the Order still had a safe and mostly protected headquarters. After Sirius's death, it was in shambles and chaos. I don't think Snape wanted that because it meant that Harry was out on the street. If Sirius had still been alive, Harry would have had an extra home besides Privet Drive.

(There's a scene in OotP, I think, in which Harry is on the subway with Mrs. Weasley and he sees a sign for "Home Insurance." That's what Harry needed most, but it was taken away when Sirius died.)


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  #442  
Old March 7th, 2012, 2:37 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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No, Snape wasn't fond of Sirius, and there's no reason why he should be. But I don't think he would have thanked Bellatrix for killing Sirius, and I personally don't believe he wanted Sirius dead, mainly because it would be one less protector for Harry. At the beginning of HBP, Dumbledore wasn't sure that Kreacher would be loyal to Harry instead of Bellatrix, and she was possibly the heir apparent for the House of Black. While Sirius was alive (and at home) in Grimmauld Place, the Order still had a safe and mostly protected headquarters. After Sirius's death, it was in shambles and chaos. I don't think Snape wanted that because it meant that Harry was out on the street. If Sirius had still been alive, Harry would have had an extra home besides Privet Drive.
It was just a joke And I don't know wether or not he wanted him dead as in wishing to kill/see him get killed but I'm afraid his reaction might just have been something like "Oh that's very... *cough* good riddance *cough cough* unfortunate." I might be wrong of course but Snape was very childish when it came to Sirius in the sense that he couldn't let go of what had happened between them all those years ago. He still saw it with the same eyes as he had then instead of looking at it through the eyes of an adult. By the end of book 7, he matures a lot so perhaps then, he would have been able to 'forgive' Sirius and at least not to hate him. Unfortunately Sirius died two books too early so we'll never know that


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  #443  
Old March 7th, 2012, 3:47 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

Without going into it too much, I think what went on between Snape and Sirius in their childhoods is something that doesn't vastly change in how it is perceived between adulthood and childhood. Nor do I think forgiveness is really necessary for maturity (it's the reasoning behind it that counts, IMO).

Personally, I'd say Snape took the news of Sirius' death with either indifference or concern that the Order (and Harry) had lost an asset. He never did like Sirius, and I doubt he felt very sad over the whole thing, but I don't think he'd take death lightly enough to be pleased. Sirius' death did throw the ownership Grimmauld Place into question for a period, causing the Order to vacate from it until they could be sure it really was Harry's.


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  #444  
Old March 7th, 2012, 6:47 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by ignisia View Post
Without going into it too much, I think what went on between Snape and Sirius in their childhoods is something that doesn't vastly change in how it is perceived between adulthood and childhood.
That's what I said :P

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Nor do I think forgiveness is really necessary for maturity (it's the reasoning behind it that counts, IMO).
Yes, that's true but as a child, when you understand less about the workings of this world, when everything is simpler than when you are an adult, if someone plays a prank on you, it's somewhat normal to think "But so and so did that to me. Why should I forgive him. I don't want to. I hate him" But when you're an adult, however moronic that prank might have been, and however much you may have disliked the person in question, a mature way of thinking would be "Yes, so and so did that to me and yes, it was stupid and yes, I hated him for that, but he was a stupid child then and there's absolutely no point in me holding a grudge for that." Especially that it was so important for the few people in the Order to work together. Snape did not do that, instead he kept provoking Sirius, exactly like a petulant child would have. So yes, the reasoning behind forgiveness is what matters but maturity is often needed in order to find those reasons (hope you're following me) It's not the case here anyway since Snape didn't forgive Sirius.


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  #445  
Old March 7th, 2012, 7:23 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

Just on a side note: That so-called "Werewolf Prank" that Sirius pulled on young Severus wasn't just an innocent prank... it could easily have resulted in Severus' death, or at the very least his being mauled (and possibly infected) if James hadn't intervened. In that light, I'm not quite so willing to believe that Severus was just "holding a grudge" for no good reason.

Actually I'm quite impressed that he was willing in GoF - if only after some prodding from Dumbledore - to shake hands with Sirius, let bygones be bygones and work together with him for the greater good. Also, already in PoA he accepted to work alongside Lupin and prepare the Wolfsbane Potion for him... and later after the Shack meeting, in spite of his threats to deliver Sirius to the Dementors, he "only" put him onto a stretcher and sent to the castle, albeit with Fudge in it.

Remember, these were a guy who had tried to get him killed (or at least didn't didn't have any problem with that outcome, which to me is *already* a chilling thought) and the person/being that might have killed him... I'm not sure that I would have accepted all that, under the circumstances.

Sirius however is a different matter IMHO. After the Shack meeting, with Severus unconscious, he not only Floats him along through the tunnel but needlessly bumps his head against the ceiling on the way. And as far as the baiting in OotP goes: if memory serves me well (does anyone have the books on hand?) it was Sirius who started it, by denying Severus the authority to conduct the Occlumency lessons with Harry as ordered by Dumbledore. I'm not so sure that it is (only) Severus who is "holding a grudge" and clinging to the past here.


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  #446  
Old March 7th, 2012, 7:50 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
Just on a side note: That so-called "Werewolf Prank" that Sirius pulled on young Severus wasn't just an innocent prank... it could easily have resulted in Severus' death, or at the very least his being mauled (and possibly infected) if James hadn't intervened. In that light, I'm not quite so willing to believe that Severus was just "holding a grudge" for no good reason.

Actually I'm quite impressed that he was willing in GoF - if only after some prodding from Dumbledore - to shake hands with Sirius, let bygones be bygones and work together with him for the greater good. Also, already in PoA he accepted to work alongside Lupin and prepare the Wolfsbane Potion for him... and later after the Shack meeting, in spite of his threats to deliver Sirius to the Dementors, he "only" put him onto a stretcher and sent to the castle, albeit with Fudge in it.

Remember, these were a guy who had tried to get him killed (or at least didn't didn't have any problem with that outcome, which to me is *already* a chilling thought) and the person/being that might have killed him... I'm not sure that I would have accepted all that, under the circumstances.

Sirius however is a different matter IMHO. After the Shack meeting, with Severus unconscious, he not only Floats him along through the tunnel but needlessly bumps his head against the ceiling on the way. And as far as the baiting in OotP goes: if memory serves me well (does anyone have the books on hand?) it was Sirius who started it, by denying Severus the authority to conduct the Occlumency lessons with Harry as ordered by Dumbledore. I'm not so sure that it is (only) Severus who is "holding a grudge" and clinging to the past here.
Oh I'm not saying that Sirius wasn't very much wrong and that the prank was stupid, dangerous and horrible. Snape did have reason to hate him but my point was that he refused to look at it from a more mature perspective, he refused to acknowledge that it happened a long time ago and at the time, Sirius was an arrogant, stupid, irresponsible teenager and that it was of absolutely no use to anyone to continue holding that grudge. It's a very delicate thing with them two...they were both wrong and neither was willing to make any effort to mend their relationship.


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  #447  
Old March 7th, 2012, 7:56 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

I don't think Snape was bothered at all about Sirius' death. I don't think he actively wished for it but he probably would have supressed a smirk when he heard the news. Sirius and James were responsible for trying to make his time at Hogwarts miserable and short of Sirius doing something monumental, I don't think he would have ever forgiven him.


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Originally Posted by sparrowinwinter View Post
Oh I'm not saying that Sirius wasn't very much wrong and that the prank was stupid, dangerous and horrible. Snape did have reason to hate him but my point was that he refused to look at it from a more mature perspective, he refused to acknowledge that it happened a long time ago and at the time, Sirius was an arrogant, stupid, irresponsible teenager and that it was of absolutely no use to anyone to continue holding that grudge. It's a very delicate thing with them two...they were both wrong and neither was willing to make any effort to mend their relationship.
To be honest, I think it was Sirius' job to try and mend it. Sirius was not just responsible for the werewolf prank but also for countless attempts at bullying him. If it was me, I certainly wouldn't have forgiven and forgotten it, heck, I might have even tried to arm twist Dumbledore into making sure that Sirius was not around when I was around. IMO just because someone does something when they are young doesn't mean that they don't have to face the consequences and can be written off as "immature and stupid". As it was, I think Snape took great pleasure in the knowledge that Sirius hated being cooped up.



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  #448  
Old March 7th, 2012, 8:00 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by sparrowinwinter View Post
Oh I'm not saying that Sirius wasn't very much wrong and that the prank was stupid, dangerous and horrible. Snape did have reason to hate him but my point was that he refused to look at it from a more mature perspective, he refused to acknowledge that it happened a long time ago and at the time, Sirius was an arrogant, stupid, irresponsible teenager and that it was of absolutely no use to anyone to continue holding that grudge. It's a very delicate thing with them two...they were both wrong and neither was willing to make any effort to mend their relationship.
Hmmm, I think this maturity issue is much more complicated than one might expect. As a teenager is a very fragile being ( I would know), naturally, they are very impressionable at that point in their lives. But that is not the main reason here. As others have stated, Sirius endangered Snape's life. And to Snape, it may appear that Sirius is remorseless for it. Is Sirius sorry that he took such measures? It is never stated, but I think I can safely say that organizing the basic extermination of a person is not something that is easily forgiven, or likely to be forgiven, for that matter. Maturity, within the story, is only found in characters like Dumbledore and Harry. And even then, if maturity were to be something associated with the ability to forgive, why, I feel even a great majority of adults in the real world would fail at such a test.


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  #449  
Old March 7th, 2012, 9:03 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

OK, guys. Far too much character-bashing and misusing the Snape thread to list other characters' perceived failings as human beings. IT'S THE SNAPE THREAD, not the Sirius/James/Harry/Lily/whoever thread.

Please read the No Snape vs Marauders rule



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  #450  
Old March 7th, 2012, 9:18 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by sparrowinwinter View Post
It was just a joke And I don't know wether or not he wanted him dead as in wishing to kill/see him get killed but I'm afraid his reaction might just have been something like "Oh that's very... *cough* good riddance *cough cough* unfortunate."
There is something pretty definite we can say about Snape at the time of Sirius's death at the end of OotP. That is, Snape was at that point already someone who would go out of his way to check on Sirius's safety, when given a reason to suppose Sirius's life was in danger: we learn from Dumbledore that after being told by Harry of Sirius's supposed capture by Voldemort, Snape checked to make sure that Sirius was safe at 12 GP.


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  #451  
Old March 8th, 2012, 2:30 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
There is something pretty definite we can say about Snape at the time of Sirius's death at the end of OotP. That is, Snape was at that point already someone who would go out of his way to check on Sirius's safety, when given a reason to suppose Sirius's life was in danger: we learn from Dumbledore that after being told by Harry of Sirius's supposed capture by Voldemort, Snape checked to make sure that Sirius was safe at 12 GP.
I think this fits in well with the scene from TPT where Dumbledore asks "How many men and women have you watched die?” and Snape retorts "Lately only those whom I could not save."

I always saw this statement as rejecting Dumbledore's plan to have Harry die on an ethical basis (respect for the sanctity Life), and I think this example w/Sirius is a good bit of evidence that Snape did in fact have an ethical concern for others, even if he did not care about them personally. (I think he developed this set of ethics over the years that Voldemort was gone...)


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  #452  
Old March 8th, 2012, 4:39 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

Even Dumbledore said some wounds ran too deep to heal. So, he realized that there are things that happen to us in our childhoods that, no matter how much we "grow up," will impact us for the rest of our lives. He was talking to Harry about the animosity between Severus and James, but I think it can be related to the entire werewolf incident and all of those involved. And, he may have known of other things that happened to Severus, as a student, that had led to a bitterness he was not able to outgrow, no matter who the "pranksters" were.

IMO, the impact of the joke has to do with the overall personality of the target of the joke and how well they can handle ridicule. I think that we can agree Severus had very low self-esteem as a young man, and, as we see, even into his adult life. So, the impact of any ridicule would have been even more biting than someone who could have just let it slide off their back, so to speak. It seems he was just not able to get over it completely, and, no matter how old he got, there was still a certain amount of bitterness, which we see reflected in the bickering that still went on between the two.

I do think there was a change in Severus, though, as he was able to accept that Sirius did not betray the Potters and was not a willing part of Lily's death. Despite the bickering at Grimmauld Place, it was nothing compared to his caps lock rage in the Shrieking Shack.


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  #453  
Old March 8th, 2012, 8:19 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

In Spinner's End I believe Snape does toast Bellatrix for directly bringing about Sirius' death, though how much of that can be attributed to keeping his cover is unknown.

He also claims that information he provided Voldemort was critical in bringing about Sirius' (and Emmeline Vance's) demise as well. Again, is this to solidify his cover or did he give the Dark Lord inportant information on Sirius? As a spy, keeping lies to a minimum in order to keep your story straight is crucial. Bellatrix could have checked out what Snape was claiming, so why give her a lie that could compromise him if it turned out not to be true?

I've often wondered what information Snape gave Voldemort about Sirius. Snape requested that Sirius remain behind to inform DD what was happening the night Harry went to the ministry. If Snape's info to LV about Sirius was not correct, he was compromising himself to keep Sirius safe.


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  #454  
Old March 9th, 2012, 12:46 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

But, when Harry told him Sirius was being held at the Ministry he went to check on him. Why would he have done that when he could have just let Voldemort torture and kill him. I don't think anyone but Dumbledore knew the entire Prophecy, so LV couldn't have gotten much information out of him, but he could have done him some serious damage while trying.

I think toasting Bella was just to play his part, and he could have told LV something as simple as the fact that Sirius was an Animagus, or something else that might have seemed important to LV, but didn't really mean anything in the long run. At that point in his life, I don't see him doing anything like that to anyone that wasn't necessary. If he gave info on Vance or anyone else IMO, it was at Dumbledore's direction.


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  #455  
Old March 9th, 2012, 1:21 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

After rereading and thinking about it further, the info he gave LV may not have been specifically about Sirius but the Order in general. If the Order showed up at the MoM looking for Harry, LV may have been suspicious if Snape didn't know about it (or withheld that info, basically the same thing.)


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  #456  
Old March 9th, 2012, 1:22 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

I'd take much of what Snape says in Spinner's End with a pinch-- no, more like a cup-- of salt. That chapter is, after all, there to throw us off-track in preparation for Snape killing Dumbledore at the end of HBP. Snape spends much of it explaining how he is on Voldemort side, something DH reveals to us is certainly not the case.

Did Snape keep his mouth clamped shut in front of Voldemort? I doubt it, he wouldn't be much of a spy unless he gave some information, and he had to suspect Bellatrix would double-check his facts after she and Narcissa had left Spinner's End. But I don't think this means he gave anything really substantial to Voldemort. He'd have no inclination or need to endanger the Order that way, even if other DEs like Bellatrix were sniffing around. Elevation of even the most useless fact can be sneered away as simple bravado. The worst Bellatrix would think was that Snape exaggerated the importance of his information in an attempt at annoying her. Every other lie he fed her seemed to work wonders.

Plus, he knew by Spinner's End that he would soon be forced to kill Dumbledore, an act that, whatever Bellatrix's suspicions, would secure his position as a loyal DE. Given another few months, and he wouldn't care what she thought, Voldemort would be so pleased with him.

ETA2:
Quote:
If the Order showed up at the MoM looking for Harry, LV may have been suspicious if Snape didn't know about it (or withheld that info, basically the same thing.)
Edit: Oops, I looked at the Read-a-thon thread and now I get it! Sorry.


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  #457  
Old March 9th, 2012, 1:57 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
After rereading and thinking about it further, the info he gave LV may not have been specifically about Sirius but the Order in general. If the Order showed up at the MoM looking for Harry, LV may have been suspicious if Snape didn't know about it (or withheld that info, basically the same thing.)
I think Voldemort was suspicious of Snape after the MoM battle, and the reason he placed Wormtail at Spinner's End (HBP)to keep an eye on Snape.


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Old March 9th, 2012, 2:00 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
After rereading and thinking about it further, the info he gave LV may not have been specifically about Sirius but the Order in general. If the Order showed up at the MoM looking for Harry, LV may have been suspicious if Snape didn't know about it (or withheld that info, basically the same thing.)
Indeed. The actual text of the exchange between Bella and Snape reads:

HBP, "Spinner's End""And, while we are on the subject of the Order, you still claim you cannot reveal the whereabouts of their headquarters, don't you?"

"I am not the Secret-Keeper; I cannot speak the name of the place. You understand how the enchantment works, I think? The Dark Lord is satisfied with the information I have passed him on the Order. It led, as perhaps you have guessed, to the recent capture and murder of Emmeline Vance, and it certainly helped dispose of Sirius Black, though I give you full credit for finishing him off."


So, it is general information on the Order, and not on Sirius or Vance specifically, that Snape claims to have provided.

My own guess as to the information is that Snape may have told Voldemort the Order would try to stymie his attempts to steal the Prophecy by guarding the entrance to the Department of Mysteries, as we know they did. And as Voldemort would eventually have discovered anyway, by the time Nagini attacked Arthur Weasley if not earlier. (Arthur had no business hanging out at the Department of Mysteries after hours, he does not even work there).

If Vance happened to be the Order member on guard the night Lucius and Company showed up, this would make the information related to her death.


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  #459  
Old March 9th, 2012, 2:24 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
My own guess as to the information is that Snape may have told Voldemort the Order would try to stymie his attempts to steal the Prophecy by guarding the entrance to the Department of Mysteries, as we know they did. And as Voldemort would eventually have discovered anyway, by the time Nagini attacked Arthur Weasley if not earlier. (Arthur had no business hanging out at the Department of Mysteries after hours, he does not even work there).
It seems to me that for his information to have aided in eliminating Sirius, it would have needed to be a bit more recent. But it's possible that he could be exaggerating it's importance.

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Originally Posted by arithmancer View Post
If Vance happened to be the Order member on guard the night Lucius and Company showed up, this would make the information related to her death.
In "The Other Minister" Emmeline Vance is killed near the PM's office. I can't recall if that is also near the MoM or not.


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  #460  
Old March 9th, 2012, 2:44 am
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6

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Originally Posted by mirrormere View Post
In "The Other Minister" Emmeline Vance is killed near the PM's office. I can't recall if that is also near the MoM or not.
There is no reason to believe it is. However, Snape in his brief reference to her fate, refers to her "capture and murder". This suggests to me she was not murdered immediately where she was found, but rather captured, taken to another place, and later killed. I would guess she was left near 10 Downing St. to add to the disorder in the Muggle world.


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