Login  
 
 
Go Back   Chamber of Secrets > Harry Potter > The Cloak > The Pensieve

Severus Snape: Byronic/Gothic Hero



Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #41  
Old February 5th, 2007, 8:02 pm
alwaysme's Avatar
alwaysme  Female.gif alwaysme is offline
Queen of Apathy
 
Joined: 5123 days
Posts: 3,325
Re: Severus Snape: Byronic/Gothic Hero

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
I agree about Mary being the true heroine of the story - she rises above her own nature and learns to help others become better, too.
I loved how Mary helps Archie and Colin too. She helps bring warmth back into the home. It has been many years since I read the book but I remember the manor being described in a gloomy way very much like Archie's character.

Quote:
I do think Archibald is gloomy and rather pathetic - but that's a gothic hero, eh? They are all depressed, introspective, obsessive, and somehow frozen.
Absolutely.


Quote:
I enjoyed reading the Archie parts of Secret Garden again because of the "garden" and "key" images. He has kept Colin locked up while he has run away, and he's kept his own feelings locked up.
Exactly. I think Archie just felt that running away from his problems would help make the pain go away. I also think he felt by keeping his son locked away he could preserve him somehow, unlike his dead wife. Basically the fear of what could happen next in life.


Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #42  
Old February 5th, 2007, 8:13 pm
SusanBones's Avatar
SusanBones  Female.gif SusanBones is offline
Inconceivable!
 
Joined: 5656 days
Location: in a galaxy far, far away
Posts: 4,090
Re: Severus Snape: Byronic/Gothic Hero

I find Heathcliffe to be a rather despicable character. I can't find much to like about him. He doesn't seem to be redeemable either. He has made most of his problems by his actions. I don't find much to compare Heathcliffe and Snape to. Snape is similiar in that he holds a grudge. Neither of them seem to have many friends. Only book 7 will tell us if Snape also loved a woman who married another man. And book 7 will tell us if Snape becomes redeemed.

Archie in Secret Garden is redeemed by love. He has experienced the love from his dead wife, just as Harry has experienced the love from his parents. Lillias sends a message through a dream and some could say she sent a message through Martha Sowerby, which are both given out of love. Mrs Sowerby was motivated by love of the children to contact Archie. She did it in a loving manner, rather then in an accusatory way. Harry's greatest strength will be love. The greatest agent for change in Secret Garden was love.

I have read Secret Garden many times, but never saw the similiarites before.



Last edited by SusanBones; February 5th, 2007 at 8:19 pm.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old February 5th, 2007, 10:26 pm
alwaysme's Avatar
alwaysme  Female.gif alwaysme is offline
Queen of Apathy
 
Joined: 5123 days
Posts: 3,325
Re: Severus Snape: Byronic/Gothic Hero

Quote:
Originally Posted by SusanBones111 View Post
I find Heathcliffe to be a rather despicable character. I can't find much to like about him. He doesn't seem to be redeemable either. He has made most of his problems by his actions. I don't find much to compare Heathcliffe and Snape to. Snape is similiar in that he holds a grudge. Neither of them seem to have many friends. Only book 7 will tell us if Snape also loved a woman who married another man. And book 7 will tell us if Snape becomes redeemed.
I think that Heathcliff is much worse than Snape personality wise but at the same time I did feel compassion for him. I always felt that Wuthering Heights was such a tragic story of love lost and situations gone bad,this of course doesn't excuse Heathcliff's actions but I really did feel for him. I think the whole lack of love/thwarted love backstory is something that goes along with most gothic heroes and I expect Snape's backstory will have elements of this.


Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old February 6th, 2007, 3:55 am
Chievrefueil's Avatar
Chievrefueil  Female.gif Chievrefueil is offline
Hogwarts Graduate
 
Joined: 5715 days
Location: The Steam Room
Age: 49
Posts: 2,159
Re: Severus Snape: Byronic/Gothic Hero

Interesting discussion on The Secret Garden. I’ve never read it, but it sounds like I should.

Regarding Wuthering Heights, the biggest proponent of the parallels between Snape and Heathcliff, I think, was The Black Adder. She posted this on “Deconstructing the Marauders v.8” (one of the few versions of this thread not entirely deleted) back in February 2005:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Black Adder

Earlier on this thread, SIP and I were discussing some similarities between the Harry Potter series and Wuthering Heights, and the more we've looked at that gothic novel, the more parallels we've seen. For some time I've suspected that JKR was using the idea of it's two generational plotting, where it becomes up to the children to "make right" the tragic missed opportunities and cruelties of the older generation.

In both stories you have the Byronesque, dark character, Heathcliff and Snape, each made cruel and embittered by the injustices they've experienced (And Ralph Fiennes in the movie even throws his billowing cloak around like Snape!). Each "came into his own" as it were by seeking his fortune through illegal or dark means before his "return". Each seeks to avenge himself by inflicting a similar injustice upon the children/child of his enemies.

I'm not suggesting the parallels are exact; JKR has created her own story to be sure, but still the similarities that exist are striking. In WH when Hindley dies, Heathcliff says to the boy,
Quote:
” "Now my bonnie lad, you're mine. Let's see if one tree won't grow as crooked as another with the same wind to twist it."
Heathcliff disinherits Hindley's heir, Hareton, and makes him into a servant just as he was treated by the boy's father.

Now Heathcliff's hatred for the young Catherine Linton, and her being almost the spitting image of her mother Cathy, I remembered, but Hareton was the revelation as I watched the Ralph Fiennes/Juliette Binoche movie version again (it's been a few years since I saw it or read the book). First of all, the name—Hare-ton—is quite close to "Harry" don't you think? (and for those who remember past discussions, another reference to a "rabbit" himmmm? ). The thing is, Hareton doesn't grow as "crooked" as did Heathcliff. In fact, he is remarkably kind-hearted and insightful. To the young Catherine's bewilderment, he defends and shows kindness even to his tormentor Heathcliff. The movie doesn't tell us much of Hareton's mother (I've got to get a hold of the book still), but I find it significant that his mother died in childbirth…

At the end of the movie, the narrator tells us that the happiness of Catherine and Hareton came at a price, a "lost" generation and three deaths. I find some very curious similarities here, which is another reason why I believe that JKR will make Snape's redemption come by way of "the children".

The only thing that's disturbing about all this is that now I'm convinced that if Snape is killed during the 6th or 7th books, he's going to end up a ghost at Hogwarts! "The country folk say that he still walks…"
When TBA posted this, I had not yet read Wuthering Heights. Having read it now, I’m less sympathetic to Heathcliff than she was, since he never did anything to redeem himself, unlike Snape. As she says, it was only after Heathcliff’s death that the younger generation were able to reconcile. However, Snape has no children (of his own or that he has raised), so any reconciliation that occurs must be through himself. James is dead, so any reconciliation would have to be with Harry, which I think is likely.

Jane Eyre has recently been mentioned here and, as luck would have it, I just finished reading that story yesterday. As has been pointed out, Rochester fits the mold of a Gothic Hero, just as Snape does. There were 2 passages yesterday that distinctly reminded me of Snape, though neither were about Rochester:
“May your eyes never shed such stormy, scalding, heart-wrung tears as poured from mine. May you never appeal to Heaven in prayers so hopeless and so agonised as in that hour left my lips; for never may you, like me, dread to be the instrument of evil to what you wholly love.”
The Gothic Hero is often the instrument of evil to what he wholly loves, he doesn’t just dread it. As a Gothic Hero, then, Snape must have loved Lily, as he was literally the instrument of her doom in delivering the prophecy to Voldemort.

The second passage that made me think of Snape was this:
[His] eyes, though clear enough in a literal sense, in a figurative one were difficult to fathom. He seemed to use them rather as instruments to search other people's thoughts, than as agents to reveal his own: the which combination of keenness and reserve was considerably more calculated to embarrass than to encourage.
Would anyone hazard a guess as to whom this description belongs?

I do believe that Rochester’s general story arc parallels Snape’s rather well and might be used to help predict how Snape’s story might end. Rochester became embittered by a wrong done to him as a young man—he felt trapped into marriage by his family and his wife’s family:
“I was not the eldest son of my house … my father was an avaricious, grasping man … it was his resolution to keep the property together; he could not bear the idea of dividing his estate and leaving me a fair portion: all, he resolved, should go to my brother, Rowland. Yet as little could he endure that a son of his should be a poor man. I must be provided for by a wealthy marriage. He sought me a partner betimes ... Mr. Mason, he found, had a son and daughter; and he learned from him that he could and would give the latter a fortune of thirty thousand pounds: that sufficed. When I left college, I was sent out to Jamaica, to espouse a bride already courted for me. My father said nothing about her money; but he told me Miss Mason was the boast of Spanish Town for her beauty: and this was no lie. I found her a fine woman, in the style of Blanche Ingram: tall, dark, and majestic. Her family wished to secure me because I was of a good race; and so did she. They showed her to me in parties, splendidly dressed. I seldom saw her alone, and had very little private conversation with her. She flattered me, and lavishly displayed for my pleasure her charms and accomplishments. All the men in her circle seemed to admire her and envy me. I was dazzled, stimulated: my senses were excited; and being ignorant, raw, and inexperienced, I thought I loved her… Her relatives encouraged me; competitors piqued me; she allured me: a marriage was achieved almost before I knew where I was. Oh, I have no respect for myself when I think of that act!--an agony of inward contempt masters me. I never loved, I never esteemed, I did not even know her...

"My bride's mother I had never seen: I understood she was dead. The honeymoon over, I learned my mistake; she was only mad, and shut up in a lunatic asylum. There was a younger brother, too--a complete dumb idiot … My father and my brother Rowland knew all this; but they thought only of the thirty thousand pounds, and joined in the plot against me.

"These were vile discoveries; but except for the treachery of concealment, I should have made them no subject of reproach to my wife, even when I found her nature wholly alien to mine … I perceived that I should never have a quiet or settled household, because no servant would bear the continued outbreaks of her violent and unreasonable temper, or the vexations of her absurd, contradictory, exacting orders--even then I restrained myself: I eschewed upbraiding, I curtailed remonstrance; I tried to devour my repentance and disgust in secret; I repressed the deep antipathy I felt…

"My brother in the interval was dead, and at the end of the four years my father died too. I was rich enough now--yet poor to hideous indigence: a nature the most gross, impure, depraved I ever saw, was associated with mine, and called by the law and by society a part of me. And I could not rid myself of it by any legal proceedings: for the doctors now discovered that MY WIFE was mad-- her excesses had prematurely developed the germs of insanity.”
So, Rochester was wronged and it led him to commit wrong acts himself. It led him to return to England, pretending that he didn’t have a wife. It led him to travel Europe, taking one mistress after another. When he’d finally found a woman who he considered a “soul-mate,” it led him to the point that he “would have sullied [his] innocent flower--breathed guilt on its purity” by tricking her into a polygamous marriage. In doing so, he’d have been her ruin—her salvation is attributed to divine intervention, not to Rochester’s restraint.

Likewise, from what we see, Snape was wronged as a child, both at home and as a student. Although it’s impossible to say that his having become a Death Eater was directly related to having been abused, it must have been an influence on him. Therefore, Snape’s response to a wrong act was to commit a wrong act, as did Rochester and as do Gothic Heroes. And, if Snape loved Lily, his acts led to her ruin when he gave Voldemort the prophecy. Unfortunately, there was no divine intervention for them.

Rochester was only redeemed when he showed remorse and repentance, which he didn’t do right away. He continued to think that he was justified in his actions, despite Jane running away and him believing her likely dead. He was a strong man who was smote down to become an invalid, losing both his sight and his left hand. It was only afterwards that he began to regret his prior actions:
“…You know I was proud of my strength: but what is it now, when I must give it over to foreign guidance, as a child does its weakness? Of late, Jane--only--only of late--I began to see and acknowledge the hand of God in my doom. I began to experience remorse, repentance; the wish for reconcilement to my Maker. I began sometimes to pray: very brief prayers they were, but very sincere.

"Some days since: nay, I can number them--four; it was last Monday night, a singular mood came over me: one in which grief replaced frenzy--sorrow, sullenness. I had long had the impression that since I could nowhere find you, you must be dead. Late that night-- perhaps it might be between eleven and twelve o'clock--ere I retired to my dreary rest, I supplicated God, that, if it seemed good to Him, I might soon be taken from this life, and admitted to that world to come, where there was still hope of rejoining Jane.

"I was in my own room, and sitting by the window, which was open: it soothed me to feel the balmy night-air; though I could see no stars and only by a vague, luminous haze, knew the presence of a moon. I longed for thee, Janet! Oh, I longed for thee both with soul and flesh! I asked of God, at once in anguish and humility, if I had not been long enough desolate, afflicted, tormented; and might not soon taste bliss and peace once more. That I merited all I endured, I acknowledged--that I could scarcely endure more, I pleaded; and the alpha and omega of my heart's wishes broke involuntarily from my lips in the words--'Jane! Jane! Jane!'"

"Did you speak these words aloud?"

"I did, Jane. If any listener had heard me, he would have thought me mad: I pronounced them with such frantic energy."

"And it was last Monday night, somewhere near midnight?"

"Yes; but the time is of no consequence: what followed is the strange point. You will think me superstitious,--some superstition I have in my blood, and always had: nevertheless, this is true-- true at least it is that I heard what I now relate.

"As I exclaimed 'Jane! Jane! Jane!' a voice--I cannot tell whence the voice came, but I know whose voice it was--replied, 'I am coming: wait for me;' and a moment after, went whispering on the wind the words--'Where are you?'”
This is evidence of Rochester’s redemption because Jane heard him calling in her soul or mind and the words he describes having heard whispered on the wind were the words she replied. It was this that made her search for him again.

We know from Dumbledore that Snape was remorseful for what he had done in giving Voldemort the prophecy. We know that Snape’s actions show repentance, as he has risked his life to spy for the Order. All we have yet to see his evidence of his redemption.

To make a different parallel with Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights, neither Rochester nor Heathcliff forgave those who had wronged them, as Snape has not forgiven James. On the other hand, Jane did forgive those who had wronged her, in particular her aunt who treated her cruelly, even while she was on her deathbed years later. Although Jane parallels Lily, I believe she also parallels Harry. It’s likely that Harry will forgive those who have wronged him—the Dursleys and Snape.


__________________


Not that he's important to the story or anything...

Snape's Army Headquarters

Does your personality determine what your favorite Harry Potter character is?
Click here
to help find out!

Original avatar artwork by mirrorcradle
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old February 6th, 2007, 5:19 am
silver ink pot's Avatar
silver ink pot  Female.gif silver ink pot is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 6139 days
Location: Shining Snape's Halo
Age: 59
Posts: 9,778
Re: Severus Snape: Byronic/Gothic Hero

Chiev: Bravo! Bravo! I thoroughly enjoyed reading your great post!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiev
The Gothic Hero is often the instrument of evil to what he wholly loves, he doesn’t just dread it. As a Gothic Hero, then, Snape must have loved Lily, as he was literally the instrument of her doom in delivering the prophecy to Voldemort.
Yes! It's the plot twist in all these stories - the person they love, they somehow wrong in a horrible way. I do think that is one key to the Gothic Hero - the love for one person and the regret have to be connected.

The supernatural message that Jane receives from Rochester is much like the one received from "Lilias" by Archibald Craven. In both cases, people must come back and face the truth, for good and bad.

Jane isn't able to forget Rochester even though she realizes he isn't a totally "good" person, and I agree that Jane and Harry parallel eachother.

Jane has been raised as an orphan in her Aunt's house and tormented by a spoiled cousin. Her aunt treats her cruelly, then turns her over to a religious fanatic at a school where all the children are dying of whooping cough and not getting enough to eat. When she finally goes off to be a governess for Mr. Rochester's foster daughter, it is the first time in her life that she feels free - much like Harry's experiences at Hogwarts compared to the Dursleys.

What's interesting is that we actually have two "dark" men in Jane Eyre. The horrible schoolmaster and Mr. Rochester. JKR would like us to believe that Snape is the "equal" of Mr. Brocklehurst, who is described in almost Death Eater fashion:

I looked up at -- a black
pillar! -- such, at least, appeared to me, at first sight, the
straight, narrow, sable-clad shape standing erect on the rug: the
grim face at the top was like a carved mask, placed above the shaft
by way of capital.


That sounds like Snape, but his face is different:

HE, for it was a man, turned his head slowly towards where I stood,
and having examined me with the two inquisitive-looking grey eyes
which twinkled under a pair of bushy brows, said solemnly, and in
a bass voice, "Her size is small: what is her age?"


Interesting, his eyes "twinkle" like Dumbledore's, and his eyes are grey like Sirius's - but also Lucius Malfoy's.

He is then described again as having a big nose - like Snape - and his speech to Jane makes her more angry than contrite - just like Harry's first potions class:

"Come here," he said.

I stepped across the rug; he placed me square and straight before
him. What a face he had, now that it was almost on a level
with mine! what a great nose! and what a mouth! and what large
prominent teeth!

"No sight so sad as that of a naughty child," he began, "especially a
naughty little girl. Do you know where the wicked go after death?"

"They go to hell," was my ready and orthodox answer.

"And what is hell? Can you tell me that?"

"A pit full of fire."

"And should you like to fall into that pit, and to be burning there
for ever?"

"No, sir."

"What must you do to avoid it?"

I deliberated a moment; my answer, when it did come, was objectionable:
"I must keep in good health, and not die."

"How can you keep in good health? Children younger than you die
daily. I buried a little child of five years old only a day or
two since, -- a good little child, whose soul is now in heaven.
It is to be feared the same could not be said of you were you to
be called hence."


I believe Mr. Brocklehurst is a parallel to Lucius Malfoy, who because of his money and connections thinks he runs Hogwarts and is always interfering. We are told that later he is removed by more "sympathetic" men. He is also like Umbridge, in his neglect of the students and his humiliating punishments.

When Jane meets Rochester - she finds him just as frightening in some ways as Mr. Brocklehurst, and Rochester also pushes Jane to tell the truth.

But while Brocklehurst is more like Voldemort/Lucius/Umbridge in the accusations of lying, Rochester asks his questions more out of curiousity and later love for her. It's very interesting.

One other thing - I do find Hareton in Wuthering Heights to be a parallel to Harry - he's a survivor who still loves in spite of his circumstances.


__________________


"It may have escaped your notice, but life isn't fair."
~ Severus Snape, OotP movie


Severus Snape ~ Bloomsbury Books Favorite HP Character

Severmore ~ NEW Harry Potter Network ~ LJ Dungeon
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old February 6th, 2007, 12:41 pm
SusanBones's Avatar
SusanBones  Female.gif SusanBones is offline
Inconceivable!
 
Joined: 5656 days
Location: in a galaxy far, far away
Posts: 4,090
Re: Severus Snape: Byronic/Gothic Hero

I was wondering if you saw any similiarities between Hareton and Neville? Hareton seemed to be in the background quite a bit, if I remember correctly, trying not to make waves. He was able to get past the ruthlessness of his guardian, just as Neville moved beyond his grandmother's autocratic ways.

I read Jane Eyre in 8th grade, a very long time ago. But I remember some of it, so it must have impressed me. I think I will read it again, with the Gothic hero characters in mind.


Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old February 6th, 2007, 1:56 pm
ignisia's Avatar
ignisia  Female.gif ignisia is offline
Leader of the GLITTELUTION
 
Joined: 5109 days
Location: Sitting in a Tin Can
Age: 31
Posts: 4,418
Re: Severus Snape: Byronic/Gothic Hero

Quote:
Originally Posted by SusanBones111 View Post
I was wondering if you saw any similiarities between Hareton and Neville? Hareton seemed to be in the background quite a bit, if I remember correctly, trying not to make waves. He was able to get past the ruthlessness of his guardian, just as Neville moved beyond his grandmother's autocratic ways.
There is one similarity I recall. In the first couple books, Neville is notorious for his clumsiness, a bit like how Hareton was uneducated.


__________________
I am incapable of hating someone who, instead of using a spell to guard the Sorcerer's Stone, uses a logic puzzle.
I'm sorry.



VIVA LA GLITTELUTION
Looking for a home away from home?
Hogsmeade ~ Apparate.me
Avatar by SIP
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old February 7th, 2007, 10:17 am
silver ink pot's Avatar
silver ink pot  Female.gif silver ink pot is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 6139 days
Location: Shining Snape's Halo
Age: 59
Posts: 9,778
Re: Severus Snape: Byronic/Gothic Hero

Here's the online book of Wuthering Heights:

http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext96/wuthr10.txt

I was just scanning through this and came across a scene in which Mr. Earnshaw comes home drunk and pulls Hareton out of a cupboard where he is being "hidden."

Wuthering Heights, CHAPTER IX

HE (Hindley) entered, vociferating oaths dreadful to hear; and caught me in
the act of stowing his son sway in the kitchen cupboard. Hareton
was impressed with a wholesome terror of encountering either his
wild beast's fondness or his madman's rage; for in one he ran a
chance of being squeezed and kissed to death, and in the other of
being flung into the fire, or dashed against the wall; and the poor
thing remained perfectly quiet wherever I chose to put him.

'There, I've found it out at last!' cried Hindley, pulling me back
by the skin of my neck, like a dog. 'By heaven and hell, you've
sworn between you to murder that child! I know how it is, now,
that he is always out of my way. But, with the help of Satan, I
shall make you swallow the carving-knife, Nelly! . . .

'Oh!' said he, releasing me, 'I see that hideous little villain is
not Hareton: I beg your pardon, Nell. If it be, he deserves
flaying alive for not running to welcome me, and for screaming as
if I were a goblin. Unnatural cub, come hither! I'll teach thee
to impose on a good-hearted, deluded father. Now, don't you think
the lad would be handsomer cropped? It makes a dog fiercer, and I
love something fierce - get me a scissors - something fierce and
trim! Besides, it's infernal affectation - devilish conceit it is,
to cherish our ears - we're ***** enough without them. Hush,
child, hush! Well then, it is my darling! wisht, dry thy eyes -
there's a joy; kiss me. What! it won't? Kiss me, Hareton! Damn
thee, kiss me! By God, as if I would rear such a monster! As sure
as I'm living, I'll break the brat's neck.'

Poor Hareton was squalling and kicking in his father's arms with
all his might, and redoubled his yells when he carried him up-
stairs and lifted him over the banister. I cried out that he would
frighten the child into fits, and ran to rescue him.


Holding him over the banister like that reminds me of Neville being held out the window by his great uncle and bouncing to show he is a wizard. But it also reminds me of the stories JKR tells about she and her sister playing a game on the stairs as children, in which one of them would pretend to fall to their death.

The cupboard reference reminds me of Harry, but of course, in the books, Neville does wear bunny slippers. (PoA)


__________________


"It may have escaped your notice, but life isn't fair."
~ Severus Snape, OotP movie


Severus Snape ~ Bloomsbury Books Favorite HP Character

Severmore ~ NEW Harry Potter Network ~ LJ Dungeon
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old February 8th, 2007, 3:15 am
Chievrefueil's Avatar
Chievrefueil  Female.gif Chievrefueil is offline
Hogwarts Graduate
 
Joined: 5715 days
Location: The Steam Room
Age: 49
Posts: 2,159
Re: Severus Snape: Byronic/Gothic Hero

Thanks for the compliment, SIP. I agree that superficially, Snape does seem like Brocklehurst, the minister "patron" of the school Jane attended. His treatment of the girls seemed cruel; although, in his misguided ultra-Puritanical way, he was trying to better the girls and believed he was acting for their benefit. That is essentially where the parallel ends, though, because there was nothing further to Brocklehurst. It's the story arc of Rochester that parallels Snape's story arc, even though they are not exactly the same as men.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SusanBones111 View Post
I was wondering if you saw any similiarities between Hareton and Neville? Hareton seemed to be in the background quite a bit, if I remember correctly, trying not to make waves. He was able to get past the ruthlessness of his guardian, just as Neville moved beyond his grandmother's autocratic ways.
It didn't occur to me to think about Neville when I was reading Wuthering Heights, but, in retrospect, I don't really have the sense that Neville and Hareton were similar. It's true that Hareton learned how to live with Heathcliff, but I don't think he was as timid as Neville. He would willfully do something that would risk Heathcliff's displeasure, if he wanted to do it--such as making a garden for Cathy Linton, if I remember correctly. I don't see Neville doing something on purpose that would make his grandmother or Snape angry with him. With Neville, it seems more ineptness.

Heathcliff's abuse of Hareton Earnshaw was really in neglect--the perfect "poetic justice." Heathcliff was made "low" by Hareton's father (Heathcliff's foster brother*)--so low that Cathy Earnshaw (Heathcliff's foster sister*) could never think of marrying him, though she loved him. Heathcliff's vengeance was to make Hareton low--he didn't exactly harm Hareton, but he failed to teach Hareton proper manners, how to read, etc. As a young adult, Hareton begins to understand how he has been wronged and that he has no tools with which to improve his situation. At this point in the story, he was very sensitive to criticism like Neville is, but, unlike Neville, his response to criticism was anger, not anxiety.

*On the off chance someone reading this thread doesn't know the story of Wuthering Heights...


__________________


Not that he's important to the story or anything...

Snape's Army Headquarters

Does your personality determine what your favorite Harry Potter character is?
Click here
to help find out!

Original avatar artwork by mirrorcradle
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old February 8th, 2007, 6:56 am
silver ink pot's Avatar
silver ink pot  Female.gif silver ink pot is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 6139 days
Location: Shining Snape's Halo
Age: 59
Posts: 9,778
Re: Severus Snape: Byronic/Gothic Hero

Chiev: Thanks for the background on Hareton - I admit that WH is a book I haven't read that closely before, but I'm catching up. I tend to get the characters mixed up sometimes. For some reason, Linton and Hindley seem similar to me, so if I interchange the names I apologize in advance.


__________________


"It may have escaped your notice, but life isn't fair."
~ Severus Snape, OotP movie


Severus Snape ~ Bloomsbury Books Favorite HP Character

Severmore ~ NEW Harry Potter Network ~ LJ Dungeon
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old February 10th, 2007, 12:54 am
SusanBones's Avatar
SusanBones  Female.gif SusanBones is offline
Inconceivable!
 
Joined: 5656 days
Location: in a galaxy far, far away
Posts: 4,090
Re: Severus Snape: Byronic/Gothic Hero

This thread has inspired me to read Jane Eyre again. Jane was forced to sleep in a small closet for awhile. She also reprimanded her aunt at one point, telling her that her dead parents could see how she was being treated and would not like it. That reminded me of Dumbledore reprimanding the Dursleys. Jane had to stay out of sight and was treated like she wasn't even there, like Harry was.


Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old February 10th, 2007, 4:36 am
ignisia's Avatar
ignisia  Female.gif ignisia is offline
Leader of the GLITTELUTION
 
Joined: 5109 days
Location: Sitting in a Tin Can
Age: 31
Posts: 4,418
Re: Severus Snape: Byronic/Gothic Hero

I noticed the similarities there too. She is also bullied by her cousins and (I believe) is kept mostly in the dark about her parents, like Harry.


__________________
I am incapable of hating someone who, instead of using a spell to guard the Sorcerer's Stone, uses a logic puzzle.
I'm sorry.



VIVA LA GLITTELUTION
Looking for a home away from home?
Hogsmeade ~ Apparate.me
Avatar by SIP
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old February 10th, 2007, 2:54 pm
Chievrefueil's Avatar
Chievrefueil  Female.gif Chievrefueil is offline
Hogwarts Graduate
 
Joined: 5715 days
Location: The Steam Room
Age: 49
Posts: 2,159
Re: Severus Snape: Byronic/Gothic Hero

Jane's mother married below her station, a poor minister, for love and was disowned by her family for it. Her parents died when she was just a baby and she went to live with her mother's brother, who had disagreed with the family about disowning his sister and loved Jane, perhaps better than his own children. At least the fact that he wanted to hold Jane all the time and always asked for her on his deathbed seemed to be a point of bitterness for his wife. Jane's uncle, then, also died when she was very young (a toddler) and he made his wife promise, on his deathbed, that she would take care of Jane like she was their child. Jane's aunt broke this promise. It reminded me of the evil stepmother from Cinderella more than Petunia, although I think Dumbledore expected Petunia to treat Harry as her own child and she did not. Growing up, like Harry, Jane knows nothing of her parents' story. She is only repeatedly told that they were poor and she is lucky to have been taken into a wealthy home, rather than being sent to a poor house. She does not know of any relatives on her father's side and believes she has none, although this is not true.

Her one cousin, John, is very much like Dudley--a violent bully who is indulged too much by his mother. He ends up nearly ruining the family by gambling away their wealth when he is older. (It's not a major plot point.) At the beginning of the book, there is an altercation between John and Jane for which Jane is punished, which leads to an incident with Jane, after which her aunt decides to send her to a harsh religious school for poor girls. I don't recall that Jane ever lived in a cupboard. I think she stayed in the nursery with her cousins, but, before she left for school, she was given the task of keeping the nursery clean for her cousins.

From seeing the movies about Jane Eyre, I'd gotten the impression that her time at school was horrible, but that wasn't so much the case in the book. The environment of the school was very harsh when she arrived and she did endure a small amount of humiliation at the hand of Brocklehurst (see above for the discussion of his similarity to Snape), but it was not as much as I'd have thought based on the movies. The situation also improved very shortly after Jane's arrival and she spent many happy years there. One other similarity to Harry is that she stayed at the school over holidays; unlike Harry, she stayed even over summer holidays.

It's interesting to have a book like Harry Potter that mixes genres so seamlessly. It's part adventure/fantasy and part Gothic romance, I think. Although Harry's story matches Jane's harsh upbringing, the majority of Harry's part of the story is adventure/fantasy; while, the majority of Snape's part of the story is Gothic romance. I wonder if other genres can be found in the stories of the various other characters? I haven't really thought about that yet.


__________________


Not that he's important to the story or anything...

Snape's Army Headquarters

Does your personality determine what your favorite Harry Potter character is?
Click here
to help find out!

Original avatar artwork by mirrorcradle
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old February 10th, 2007, 5:25 pm
Liselle's Avatar
Liselle  Female.gif Liselle is offline
Knower of things
 
Joined: 6207 days
Location: Ireland
Posts: 3,565
Re: Severus Snape: Byronic/Gothic Hero

This is quite an interesting thread and i've held off posting here for awhile, trying to get my thoughts together. I don't want to out and out say that Snape is Byronic or Gothic hero or he is not a Byronic or Gothic hero. The more I think about it though the more I come down on the side that Snape is just too nasty to be a hero in any stretch of the word.

I agree with you that Snape shares quite a few of Heathcliff traits and likenesses, only perhaps even worse. I think like with Heathcliff, we feel sorry for Snape because of what we've seen of his childnood. For me though, sympathy with or for Heathcliff disappears in his treatment of Isabella, likewise the way that Snape treated Lily and treats many of his students make it difficult for me personally to think well of him....I think that Snape is just too close to the edge to qualify for the Byronic/gothic hero. In the books, Rowling never describes Snape with the kind of language that would be appropriate for such a hero. He has more in common with Bill Sykes from Oliver Twist in that Sykes is a "career criminal associated with Fagin, and an eventual murderer. He is very violent and aggressive, prone to sudden bursts of extreme behaviour." We've seen Snape display all these traits although it can be argued that it could be taken in another light.

Course as Lady Caroline Lamb would have it, Snape definitely is a bit mad, bad and dangerous to know!

Quote:
It's interesting to have a book like Harry Potter that mixes genres so seamlessly.
Absolutely, I'd have to say that there's almost an element of Asop's Fables in there.

There's great reading here actually, I do like what we can draw from Jane Eyre as well, although I'd Rochester pinned as more a less a goodie in comparasion to Heathcliff!


__________________
“Perhaps that is the secret. It is not what we do, so much as why we do it.”

Last edited by Liselle; February 10th, 2007 at 5:28 pm. Reason: pesky spelling
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old February 10th, 2007, 5:46 pm
Chievrefueil's Avatar
Chievrefueil  Female.gif Chievrefueil is offline
Hogwarts Graduate
 
Joined: 5715 days
Location: The Steam Room
Age: 49
Posts: 2,159
Re: Severus Snape: Byronic/Gothic Hero

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liselle View Post
The more I think about it though the more I come down on the side that Snape is just too nasty to be a hero in any stretch of the word.

...I think that Snape is just too close to the edge to qualify for the Byronic/gothic hero. In the books, Rowling never describes Snape with the kind of language that would be appropriate for such a hero. He has more in common with Bill Sykes from Oliver Twist in some ways.

*snip*

There's great reading here actually, I do like what we can draw from Jane Eyre as well, although I'd Rochester pinned as more a less a goodie in comparasion to Heathcliff!
If Snape is risking his life to help Harry destroy Voldemort, then those actions are heroic and that's all that's required of a Gothic Hero. Jane Eyre is told in restrospect by a character who loves Rochester and is married to him, so it's no surprise that he quickly becomes well-liked and sympathetic to the reader. However, looking at his actions alone, he often treated his young ward, Adele, with contempt, he strung along another young woman to make Jane jealous, he lied to Jane about having a mad wife in his attic, and tried to draw her into a sinful and false marriage, which at the time Jane Eyre was written would have been a lot worse than such a thing would be now. In today's world, Jane would only have been a victim. In the 19th century, she'd have been judged and condemned by all of society merely for her involvement in such a thing, even though she was innocent of wrongdoing. What's worse is that Rochester professed to love her, but thought only of himself. His actions were no less selfish than Heathcliff's actions.

In the Harry Potter books, Snape's story is told through an unsympathetic view point. The narrator does not know all of Snape's story and does not like Snape any better than Harry. If Snape's story was being told from his own point-of-view or through another character's, such as Dumbledore's, it would then be appropriate for JKR to describe Snape more clearly as a Gothic Hero. As she has written it, however, it's in the subtext.


__________________


Not that he's important to the story or anything...

Snape's Army Headquarters

Does your personality determine what your favorite Harry Potter character is?
Click here
to help find out!

Original avatar artwork by mirrorcradle

Last edited by Chievrefueil; February 10th, 2007 at 5:49 pm.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old February 10th, 2007, 6:02 pm
Liselle's Avatar
Liselle  Female.gif Liselle is offline
Knower of things
 
Joined: 6207 days
Location: Ireland
Posts: 3,565
Re: Severus Snape: Byronic/Gothic Hero

Everyone's entitled to their view points I always find it interesting how people can take the same book or character a completely different way!

I always found that Rochester was esentially a good if not selfish man caught in a place not wholly of his own making (Pretty much forced into a first marriage where just about everyone was lying to him). I also woudln't necessarily say that he treated Adele with contempt, Adele's only complaints is that no one can really understand her nurse Sophie and that Mr Edward isn't there as often as she would like. She's not treated cruely by him, he provides well for her, if a little impersonally. I guess he just can't relate to her, not that that is a good excuse. I do realise what Rochester did was wrong. Very wrong and I do know also that at the time of writing and the era it was set, it would have been a huge scandal. The main difference I'm trying to point out is that I don't think that Rochester was a cruel man where I find it very difficult to find redeeming features in Heathcliff who I do think was cruel.

But you could argue that circumstances and choices made both Heathcliff and Rochester what they are, similarily circumstances have made Snape what he is today. There comes a point in my opinion where sympathy for a character runs out because of the choices that they have made. There have been plenty of choices I'm sure made by all three characters that I wouldn't agree with.

Quote:
If Snape's story was being told from his own point-of-view or through another character's, such as Dumbledore's, it would then be appropriate for JKR to describe Snape more clearly as a Gothic Hero. As she has written it, however, it's in the subtext.
I'm not entirely convinced of this to be honest, JK Rowling herself doesn't always have the best of things to say about Snape, I also have trouble visualising the books from Dumbledore's point of view (no doubt they'd be fastinating) in this respect. He himself has said more than once that he trusts Snape and that's fine..great...wonderful but he's yet to convince Harry or the reader who engages in the story through Harry's point of view.

Ah well, each to their own I guess.


__________________
“Perhaps that is the secret. It is not what we do, so much as why we do it.”

Last edited by Liselle; February 10th, 2007 at 6:03 pm. Reason: rephrasing
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old February 10th, 2007, 6:28 pm
Chievrefueil's Avatar
Chievrefueil  Female.gif Chievrefueil is offline
Hogwarts Graduate
 
Joined: 5715 days
Location: The Steam Room
Age: 49
Posts: 2,159
Re: Severus Snape: Byronic/Gothic Hero

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liselle View Post
The main difference I'm trying to point out is that I don't think that Rochester was a cruel man where I find it very difficult to find redeeming features in Heathcliff who I do think was cruel.
I also found Heathcliff cruel, but not Rochester. As I stated several posts back, I don't think Heathcliff ever did anything to redeem himself, while Rochester accepted that his actions were wrong, in the end.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liselle View Post
I'm not entirely convinced of this to be honest, JK Rowling herself doesn't always have the best of things to say about Snape, I also have trouble visualising the books from Dumbledore's point of view (no doubt they'd be fastinating) in this respect. He himself has said more than once that he trusts Snape and that's fine..great...wonderful but he's yet to convince Harry or the reader who engages in the story through Harry's point of view.

Ah well, each to their own I guess.
JKR has been silent on Snape for a long time. Obviously, it's important to the suspense of the story at this point that Harry (and, therefore, the reader who engages in the story through Harry's point of view) not be convinced of Snape's goodness. However, the subtext is all there, so at the end of the series, the unconvinced reader will be able to go back and see the clues all along that Snape was helping Harry to destroy Voldemort, just as, in PoA, the reader was able to go back and see all the clues of Scabbers being Pettigrew in disguise. Obviously, I say this in the context of believing Snape is good. If Snape is not good, he would not be a Gothic Hero in the end and his character is ambiguous enough now that the story would still be plausible; however, JKR would have to explain some of Snape's actions that suggest he is good, that Snape himself did not yet address at Spinner's End, (such as why he'd have shown Fudge his Dark Mark) in order for the story to be internally consistent, in my opinion.


__________________


Not that he's important to the story or anything...

Snape's Army Headquarters

Does your personality determine what your favorite Harry Potter character is?
Click here
to help find out!

Original avatar artwork by mirrorcradle
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old February 10th, 2007, 6:32 pm
Liselle's Avatar
Liselle  Female.gif Liselle is offline
Knower of things
 
Joined: 6207 days
Location: Ireland
Posts: 3,565
Re: Severus Snape: Byronic/Gothic Hero

Quote:
JKR has been silent on Snape for a long time. Obviously, it's important to the suspense of the story at this point that Harry (and, therefore, the reader who engages in the story through Harry's point of view) not be convinced of Snape's goodness. However, the subtext is all there, so at the end of the series, the unconvinced reader will be able to go back and see the clues all along that Snape was helping Harry to destroy Voldemort, just as, in PoA, the reader was able to go back and see all the clues of Scabbers being Pettigrew in disguise. Obviously, I say this in the context of believing Snape is good. If Snape is not good, he would not be a Gothic Hero in the end and his character is ambiguous enough now that the story would still be plausible; however, JKR would have to explain some of Snape's actions that suggest he is good, that Snape himself did not yet address
I totally agree with you! It's why Snape's character probably is the most fastinating of all, he's just not explained and totally contradictary. Most of his actions could be argued good and bad depending on your view point.

I'm hoping we get some sort of resolution either way to put us out of our misery!


__________________
“Perhaps that is the secret. It is not what we do, so much as why we do it.”

Last edited by Liselle; February 10th, 2007 at 6:47 pm. Reason: Added quote
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old February 10th, 2007, 6:38 pm
silver ink pot's Avatar
silver ink pot  Female.gif silver ink pot is offline
Assistant to Professor Snape
 
Joined: 6139 days
Location: Shining Snape's Halo
Age: 59
Posts: 9,778
Re: Severus Snape: Byronic/Gothic Hero

Going back to the cupboard question - Jane doesn't live in a cupboard, but she is punished by being locked in a room she thinks is haunted by her Uncle's ghost, and it traumatizes her.

When a doctor asks her she isn't grateful to her Aunt for giving her a good home, she is very honest and says that she is punished all the time and her Aunt doesn't love her. The Doctor seems to think she is just complaining in a childish way, instead of telling the truth. That reminds me of Harry saying things all along about Petunia, but Dumbledore not understanding until the end of Book 5.

Rochester isn't a "hero" in the conventional sense, anymore than Heathcliff is. Rochester is so cynical about life that he nearly lures Jane into what she would see as the ultimate sinful situation, even though he knows how that would torment her. He believes the ends justifies the means, and he is going to use her love for him to keep her with him no matter what. Even after the wedding is called off, he still pleads for her to stay with him, which is why she runs away - she's afraid of him.

The similarity there is the depth of passion felt by both Rochester and Heathcliff - "all for love." Love is the only thing reason for their actions, both good and bad, although Rochester does rise to the occasion when he tries to rescue Bertha from the burning roof, and then he suffers and is redeemed.

Heathcliff wasn't always "bad," and his love for Cathy is the best part of him, and also his ruin.

Rochester compares his own youthful innocence to Jane's, telling her not to judge him too harshly. His saving grace is that he keeps trying to do the right thing, whether with Adele or Bertha or Jane.

So that's why I see Snape in this tradition - he wasn't always bad - JKR said he had been loved, and that's why he's more culpable. Dumbledore believed he felt deep remorse, and spoke of "wounds that run too deep for healing."

Snape isn't "good" but he keeps trying to atone, and there are hints that Harry doesn't see him exactly right. When Ron brings up Sectumsempra later in HBP, Harry feels a little guilty that Draco would have died if Snape hadn't saved him - a heroic act on a bloody bathroom floor. Snape also saved Dumbledore, who tells Harry he wouldn't be "alive to tell the tale" if Snape hadn't done some sort of quick action. And then Snape saved Katie Bell with his knowledge of the Dark Arts. He keeps trying to do good - that's heroic. Finally, he could have handed Harry over to the DEs on a platter, but he didn't, and he stops the Crucio in the Flight of the Prince - another heroic act, because he was also outnumbered by DEs at that point.

So there isn't one great act of heroism, but alot of small actions, which is more in line with a Gothic Hero or Anti-Hero. It's someone who doesn't quite fit the Heroic mold, but has to struggle with inner demons and overcome them.


__________________


"It may have escaped your notice, but life isn't fair."
~ Severus Snape, OotP movie


Severus Snape ~ Bloomsbury Books Favorite HP Character

Severmore ~ NEW Harry Potter Network ~ LJ Dungeon
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old February 10th, 2007, 6:48 pm
ignisia's Avatar
ignisia  Female.gif ignisia is offline
Leader of the GLITTELUTION
 
Joined: 5109 days
Location: Sitting in a Tin Can
Age: 31
Posts: 4,418
Re: Severus Snape: Byronic/Gothic Hero

The interesting thing about Jane and Rochester's relationship is that after he had lost some of his "power" by being blinded and crippled, this gave Jane a lot more importance. In the beginning, he was running things, while she sort of tagged along behind. In the end, they're both on an equal level.


__________________
I am incapable of hating someone who, instead of using a spell to guard the Sorcerer's Stone, uses a logic puzzle.
I'm sorry.



VIVA LA GLITTELUTION
Looking for a home away from home?
Hogsmeade ~ Apparate.me
Avatar by SIP
Reply With Quote
Reply
Go Back  Chamber of Secrets > Harry Potter > The Cloak > The Pensieve

Bookmarks

Tags
severus snape


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 1:28 am.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Original content is Copyright © MMII - MMVIII, CoSForums.com. All Rights Reserved.
Other content (posts, images, etc) is Copyright © its respective owners.