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Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.



 
 
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  #201  
Old February 12th, 2009, 8:51 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

I've got an plot hole.

How did Snape manage to produce a silver doe of the women who's death he caused by a happy memory?


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  #202  
Old February 12th, 2009, 8:58 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

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Originally Posted by jammi567 View Post
I've got an plot hole.

How did Snape manage to produce a silver doe of the women who's death he caused by a happy memory?
I like to think that he had happy memories with her in his youth. It may have been work to get them untainted by his actions as an adult, but I do think her friendship with Severus in their youth caused Snape to be able to have memories happy enough to produce a patronus.


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  #203  
Old February 12th, 2009, 9:13 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

I suppose so. I mean, all the memories that Harry saw were pretty depressing, apart from the first one.


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  #204  
Old February 12th, 2009, 9:22 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

Also the memory didn't necessarily have to be real; Harry conjured his OWL patronus by imagining Umbridge getting sacked.


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  #205  
Old February 12th, 2009, 9:27 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

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Originally Posted by cardinalguy View Post
Also the memory didn't necessarily have to be real; Harry conjured his OWL patronus by imagining Umbridge getting sacked.
That's true. I think the general idea there was to think of something that produced a strong, happy feeling.


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  #206  
Old February 14th, 2009, 1:45 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

In the begining of OotP Harry just thinks of Ron and Hermione not a special event, just remering his friends in general, to create his Patronus.

And we don't know what thought Snape uses. He may have thought of eating pudding in the great hall, to create the patronus (we don't know if it's a strong one, as we never see it fight )
The form of the patronus, as I understand it, is linked to something much deeper than a happy memory. Harry produces his stag without knowing about Prongs, or thinking of his father (well he does when he first sees it properly, but according to Dumbledore the patronus he had produced at the Quidditch match had already had stag-form)


  #207  
Old February 14th, 2009, 2:12 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jammi567 View Post
I suppose so. I mean, all the memories that Harry saw were pretty depressing, apart from the first one.
But we are shown just a selection of Snape's memories. Since his feelings for Lily were strong and genuine, we need not suppose that the often tense exchanges between himself and her, as shown in the memories, represent the sum total of what their friendship was all about. The memories are selected in order to explain why the friendship began to break down.

I therefore don't see Snape's Patronus as a plot hole, inconsistency or a contradiction.


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  #208  
Old February 14th, 2009, 4:23 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

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Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
But we are shown just a selection of Snape's memories. Since his feelings for Lily were strong and genuine, we need not suppose that the often tense exchanges between himself and her, as shown in the memories, represent the sum total of what their friendship was all about. The memories are selected in order to explain why the friendship began to break down.
Yes, I absolutely agree. Just because the memories we saw were sad, it doesn't mean that he never had any sort of happy memories. The friendship lasted seven years., after all.

Quote:
I therefore don't see Snape's Patronus as a plot hole, inconsistency or a contradiction.
I can see some sort of contradiction with Snape's Patronus - if we are supposed to believe that Liy's Patronus morphed to reflect James's, then it means that Snape's Patronus reflects James's essence, not Lily's. And this is just wrong.


  #209  
Old February 14th, 2009, 5:37 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

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Originally Posted by Raelis View Post
I can see some sort of contradiction with Snape's Patronus - if we are supposed to believe that Liy's Patronus morphed to reflect James's, then it means that Snape's Patronus reflects James's essence, not Lily's. And this is just wrong.


Yeeeees ... and Harry says to Voldemort that 'Snape's Patronus was the same as my mother's', but if Lily's Patronus was a doe, that means she was thinking of herself rather than James.

Which of course is not what her Patronus is meant to represent at all.

I believe we could classify the whole thing as a contradiction in terms.


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  #210  
Old February 14th, 2009, 6:10 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murzim View Post
In the begining of OotP Harry just thinks of Ron and Hermione not a special event, just remering his friends in general, to create his Patronus.

And we don't know what thought Snape uses. He may have thought of eating pudding in the great hall, to create the patronus (we don't know if it's a strong one, as we never see it fight )
The form of the patronus, as I understand it, is linked to something much deeper than a happy memory. Harry produces his stag without knowing about Prongs, or thinking of his father (well he does when he first sees it properly, but according to Dumbledore the patronus he had produced at the Quidditch match had already had stag-form)
Indeed. What produces a strong, happy feeling for one person is not necessarily going to be the same for another. I'm reminded of the movie for Peter Pan where Hook finally learned how the kids could fly with a combination of pixie dust and happy thoughts and is able to fly himself by thinking of things like drowning kittens and other cruel acts because that's what made him happy. It was an amusing scene in the movie, but the general idea there is realistic and the concept for producing a patronus fell along similar lines with the need to produce a strong, happy feeling. We can't really say what Snape's "happy thought" would have been - it could have been pretty much anything from getting his Hogwarts letter to humiliating Harry in the classroom. Whatever made him happy was going to produce a patronus.

And I agree that the form of your patronus is a subconscious thing. Harry didn't even know about James being a stag when he produced his first corporeal stag patronus during the Quidditch match. That just came from inside him and he didn't consciously decide on that. The animagus form was the same. You couldn't consciously choose what form your patronus would be or what your animagus form would be - those things were subconscious. The "happy thought" you used to produce a patronus didn't have any effect on the form it would take.


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  #211  
Old February 14th, 2009, 6:18 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

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Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
We can't really say what Snape's "happy thought" would have been - it could have been pretty much anything from getting his Hogwarts letter to humiliating Harry in the classroom. Whatever made him happy was going to produce a patronus.
But we do know what his 'happy thought' was. His 'happy thought' was Lily, hence the form of his Patronus!

Quote:
And I agree that the form of your patronus is a subconscious thing. Harry didn't even know about James being a stag when he produced his first corporeal stag patronus during the Quidditch match. That just came from inside him and he didn't consciously decide on that. The animagus form was the same. You couldn't consciously choose what form your patronus would be or what your animagus form would be - those things were subconscious. The "happy thought" you used to produce a patronus didn't have any effect on the form it would take.
Yes, absolutely but the issue which has been raised for me here is the curious issue about the Patronus forms of James and Lily.

Consider:

-- Harry's Patronus is a stag, symbolising his love for his father.

-- Snape's Patronus is a doe, symbolising his love for Lily.

-- Tonks' new Patronus is a wolf, symbolising her love for Remus.

OK, right, well, in that case ... so why isn't James' Patronus a doe, symbolising his love for Lily? And why isn't Lily's Patronus a stag, symbolising her love for James?

I'm not questioning their OTP status. The forms of their Patronuses just seem ... inconsistent, compared with the others.


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  #212  
Old February 14th, 2009, 6:26 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
But we do know what his 'happy thought' was. His 'happy thought' was Lily, hence the form of his Patronus!
The "happy thought" does not define the Patronus' form, though. For instance, Harry was not thinking of his parents when he first produced a Patronus, yet it became a stag. As I see it, it is Snape's love for Lily that made his Patronus a doe, no matter what thought he used to create it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl_Took
Snape's Patronus is a doe, symbolising his love for Lily.

Tonks' new Patronus is a wolf, symbolising her love for Remus.

OK, right, well, in that case ... why isn't James' Patronus a doe, symbolising his love for Lily? And why isn't Lily's Patronus a stag?
One possible explanation is they type of love within the individuals. Snape and Tonks longed for Lily and Lupin, respectively, but had not received any love in return. Meanwhile, James and Lily's love was mutual; they were not longing for the other, without any return of longing, since they already had one another.


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  #213  
Old February 14th, 2009, 6:36 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

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Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead View Post
The "happy thought" does not define the Patronus' form, though. For instance, Harry was not thinking of his parents when he first produced a Patronus, yet it became a stag. As I see it, it is Snape's love for Lily that made his Patronus a doe, no matter what thought he used to create it.
Oh, I see what you mean.

Quote:
One possible explanation is they type of love within the individuals. Snape and Tonks longed for Lily and Lupin, respectively, but had not received any love in return. Meanwhile, James and Lily's love was mutual; they were not longing for the other, without any return of longing, since they already had one another.
Actually, I find that a very convincing explanation.

It's not like producing a Patronus conforms to some rigid rule, after all.


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  #214  
Old February 14th, 2009, 8:25 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
But we do know what his 'happy thought' was. His 'happy thought' was Lily, hence the form of his Patronus!
The form of the patronus doesn't represent what your "happy thought" is. Harry had a wide variety of happy thoughts to produce his - from his friends to imagining Umbridge getting sacked - but his patronus was always a stag. The patronus form merely represents something about yourself - Harry's represented the connection to his father and showed that there were similarities between them. Ron's was a small dog - which revealed an aspect of his personality in terms of his loyalty and protectiveness. Whatever "happy thought" they chose to produce them, the patronus form was always going to be the same because it represented something about themselves.

Quote:
Yes, absolutely but the issue which has been raised for me here is the curious issue about the Patronus forms of James and Lily.

Consider:

-- Harry's Patronus is a stag, symbolising his love for his father.

-- Snape's Patronus is a doe, symbolising his love for Lily.

-- Tonks' new Patronus is a wolf, symbolising her love for Remus.

OK, right, well, in that case ... so why isn't James' Patronus a doe, symbolising his love for Lily? And why isn't Lily's Patronus a stag, symbolising her love for James?

I'm not questioning their OTP status. The forms of their Patronuses just seem ... inconsistent, compared with the others.
Well, there is some symbolism there. However, the patronus form reveals more about the person who produces it. As I said above, Harry's patronus being a stag does represent a connection to his father, but it also demonstrates that he had similarities to his father in terms of his personality. Ron and Hermione's patronuses reveal a connection to each other, but also represent aspects of their individual personalities as well - that was discussed quite a bit on the Ron/Hermione thread in a lot more detail, but it was very interesting to see how those animals represented them individually as well as their romantic connection.

James and Lily's are comparable to Ron and Hermione. They show the connection as well as revealing more about what kind of people they are individually. A stag commonly represents pride and independence. Deer commonly represent love, gentleness, kindness, gracefulness and sensitivity. And that's fitting for both James and Lily with what we see of them in the series in regards to their personalities.

Tonks' patronus is interesting because the change is indicated to have occurred because of her depression and it doesn't really show much about her as an individual. There's a connection because it was Lupin's rejection that caused the depression, but it wasn't a "happy" thing for her at that time. And we don't really know if it changed back after they got together and she was no longer depressed. Actually, that was something I always admired about Tonks because - having gone through a similar depression for similar reasons myself - I was astounded that she had the force of will to even be able to conjur a patronus in that state of mind. That really says a lot about her strength, IMO.

Snape's patronus changes for similar reasons because - in his mind - he lost Lily to James. Like Tonks, his patronus changes due to an unhappy event that caused him pain - though there is a difference in that it was due to his own actions with his mistakes and misconceptions about Lily. But the similarities stand out because there is a distinct focus on the negative in both those situations because the change occurs due to the pain of those circumstances. Like Tonks, Snape's patronus does not reveal much about himself as an individual. It represents his obsessive love for Lily and the pain he feels due to her being in love and eventually marrying another man - which is only magnified when she dies because that means he can never get her back.

While that is an interesting contrast when you look at the other characters and their patronuses, I wouldn't say it's a contradiction because both Tonks and Snape would still need to find a "happy thought" in order to produce the patronus. We don't know what that thought was for either of them. My guess would be that they did similar to Harry in OOTP when he imagined Umbridge getting sacked and simply imagined something that gave them that happy feeling they needed to produce a patronus - such as picturing themselves with the person they loved as a happy couple. The form of the patronus is a subconscious manifestation of their pain because that was what defined them - albeit it was only a temporary situation for Tonks - but the means of producing it was still the same.


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  #215  
Old February 15th, 2009, 8:47 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

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Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
Snape's patronus changes for similar reasons because - in his mind - he lost Lily to James. Like Tonks, his patronus changes due to an unhappy event that caused him pain - though there is a difference in that it was due to his own actions with his mistakes and misconceptions about Lily.
I don't believe we're ever told that Snape's patronus changed. Just as we're never actually told when any of them learned to make patronuses. All we know is that Dumbledore taught the Order how to use a patronus as a messenger, and that Snape suggested a different method to get rid of a dementor in his DADA class so JKR could hide his patronus from the reader. Also it would appear he never used his patronus as a messenger to anyone in the Order. I'll admit before DH I'd thought Snape had been using his patronus, and it would change after he killed Dumbledore so he would still be able to keep in touch with the Order. Missed that one!

How did Harry know his mother's patronus was a doe? I think it was an awfully big assumption on his part.


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  #216  
Old February 15th, 2009, 11:28 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

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Originally Posted by snapes_witch View Post
I don't believe we're ever told that Snape's patronus changed. Just as we're never actually told when any of them learned to make patronuses. All we know is that Dumbledore taught the Order how to use a patronus as a messenger, and that Snape suggested a different method to get rid of a dementor in his DADA class so JKR could hide his patronus from the reader. Also it would appear he never used his patronus as a messenger to anyone in the Order. I'll admit before DH I'd thought Snape had been using his patronus, and it would change after he killed Dumbledore so he would still be able to keep in touch with the Order. Missed that one!
I was just thinking about that actually. Jo said that Snape was the only Death Eater who could produce a patronus because Death Eaters wouldn't need that type of positive magic - it repelled what they stood for. Given that Snape wanted to be a Death Eater from a young age, he probably never bothered with the patronus charm until after he began spying. Dumbledore would have taught him the charm so he could use it to communicate - just as he did with the members of the Order.

However, it's still an intriguing contrast because the form Snape's patronus takes represents something painful for him yet he would still need to produce a happy feeling in order to produce it.

Quote:
How did Harry know his mother's patronus was a doe? I think it was an awfully big assumption on his part.
Harry figured out that the doe represented Lily when he saw Snape cast the patronus in Dumbledore's office to prove that he wasn't doing any of that for - or because of - Harry. Since he'd already seen the memories establishing Snape's obsessive love for Lily and Dumbledore says "after all this time", it was the logical conclusion. The doe represented Lily and Snape was only helping because of her. In addition, he had learned about how a person's patronus could change through the situation with Tonks the previous year. So it's not that difficult to see where Harry would be able to extrapolate that Lily's patronus was a doe from that.


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All posts are my opinions and interpretations based on reading the Harry Potter books and interviews with J.K. Rowling.

  #217  
Old February 15th, 2009, 3:51 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

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Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
I was just thinking about that actually. Jo said that Snape was the only Death Eater who could produce a patronus because Death Eaters wouldn't need that type of positive magic - it repelled what they stood for. Given that Snape wanted to be a Death Eater from a young age, he probably never bothered with the patronus charm until after he began spying. Dumbledore would have taught him the charm so he could use it to communicate - just as he did with the members of the Order. However, it's still an intriguing contrast because the form Snape's patronus takes represents something painful for him yet he would still need to produce a happy feeling in order to produce it.
Right, Patronus lore is not based on what happen to Snape and Tonks, that was a side effect of an upheaval in their lives according to Lupin.

Conform does not have to mean change and I think that is why there was confusion. Tonks' patronus changed, but it was not conforming to anything because there was nothing to conform to at that point in her life. Snape never had anything to conform to, but his 'changed' too - even if it was the only one he ever had. The change is just that it changed from being whatever it would have been if he hadn't been going through his upheaval. I think most realize he would not have had a feminine doe patronus to represent himself - like Tonks had not been represented by a wolf.

But if people are in love, there is conformation which is not change, it is just that what comes from within is naturally in conformation with the love of their lives, sealing the deal. Herimone and Ron's, Harry and Ginny's, Lily and James', Molly and Arthur, etc, all have that quality - but it doesn't mean that the two people have to have the same animal in male and female form, that just happened to be the case for James and Lily. That makes sense because they were similar themselves in many ways per the canon and the patronus also speaks to what is within - and for them, someone similar in nature is what they would need in order for it to be the love of their lives. So for example, Harry's love of his life would not be a doe, it would be a horse because that is what conforms with his stag in terms of 'love of his life'.

Quote:
Harry figured out that the doe represented Lily when he saw Snape cast the patronus in Dumbledore's office to prove that he wasn't doing any of that for - or because of - Harry.
Right, if we figured it out, why wouldn't Harry?


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; February 15th, 2009 at 3:59 pm.
  #218  
Old February 16th, 2009, 6:28 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
Harry figured out that the doe represented Lily when he saw Snape cast the patronus in Dumbledore's office to prove that he wasn't doing any of that for - or because of - Harry. Since he'd already seen the memories establishing Snape's obsessive love for Lily and Dumbledore says "after all this time", it was the logical conclusion. The doe represented Lily and Snape was only helping because of her. In addition, he had learned about how a person's patronus could change through the situation with Tonks the previous year. So it's not that difficult to see where Harry would be able to extrapolate that Lily's patronus was a doe from that.
Hmmm, could be. I hadn't thought of it in quite that way.

eta:

(posted by wickedwickedboy in response to meesha1971's comment above.)
Quote:
Right, if we figured it out, why wouldn't Harry?
I would hope so, but he is Harry after all!


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Last edited by snapes_witch; February 16th, 2009 at 6:35 am.
  #219  
Old February 17th, 2009, 3:49 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raelis View Post
I can see some sort of contradiction with Snape's Patronus - if we are supposed to believe that Liy's Patronus morphed to reflect James's, then it means that Snape's Patronus reflects James's essence, not Lily's. And this is just wrong.
I find that very irritating, too.
It seems that James showed very early on that he had a stag in him. We don't know when he or Lily learned to produce a patronus, but James had his stag-animagus form at the age of 15, so IMO he was first and it makes absolutly no sense that Snape has a patronus that represents Lily's love for James.

It's of course possible that Lily was first to produce a patronus and that even before she (outwardly) fell in love with James her deepest self would already produce a doe. A 'They are soul mates, even their patronuses fit' case.

I think Snape, who was certainly a hard working student and extremly interested in DA, may have produced his first patronus before he knew about James' animagus/patronus, before he and Lily fell appart. The doe is more than Lily's own patronus, it represents herself.

But I'm not surprised that Snape's patronus never changed (IMO it was Lily-doe from the first time he managed to produce one), Snape's feelings for Lily never changed!
The change in Tonks's patronus is IMO a sign that her character is still unsetteled (I hope that's the right word) Some people (in the muggle world ) seem to change completly when they fall in love with a new person (new intrests, new friends, different clothes, different music, different food preferences, new whatever), while others remain who they were, with certain smal changes and additions . The cange in Tonks' patronus shows IMO that something deep inside her has changed, and the 'new Nymphadora' is now represented by another animal.



Last edited by Murzim; February 17th, 2009 at 3:59 pm.
  #220  
Old February 17th, 2009, 4:45 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

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Originally Posted by Murzim View Post
I find that very irritating, too.
It seems that James showed very early on that he had a stag in him. We don't know when he or Lily learned to produce a patronus, but James had his stag-animagus form at the age of 15, so IMO he was first and it makes absolutly no sense that Snape has a patronus that represents Lily's love for James.

It's of course possible that Lily was first to produce a patronus and that even before she (outwardly) fell in love with James her deepest self would already produce a doe. A 'They are soul mates, even their patronuses fit' case.
Lily may have been first to produce one of she and James - but when they were older. She and James didn't make one at Hogwarts because it was Wonderful to make one, not something someone would hide. She or he would be lauded for it, even if it were only a slightly recognizable one and someone would have told Harry that his remarkably making one early was like his mum or dad or whatever. But James was already a stag, we know, and Lily I agree was already a doe - that is their inner selves and why they went on to be the loves of ones lives. JKR didn't say that either of their patronuses changed, she said they conformed, that means they were in line and conformed to the love of their lives. But I agree with you that she would have always produced a doe because that is who she was.

Quote:
I think Snape, who was certainly a hard working student and extremly interested in DA, may have produced his first patronus before he knew about James' animagus/patronus, before he and Lily fell appart. The doe is more than Lily's own patronus, it represents herself.
JKR said that those into DA didn't need or make patronuses, so I would have to disagree. If Snape had been as attracted to the good side and DADA as he was to the dark path and DA, then I would agree, but he wasn't. I believe he got his patronus when he switched sides and Dumbledore instructed him on how - he then worked to perform it himself.

I don't know why Snape was any different from Tonks. They both had unrequited love while older and both of their patronuses reflected that. Snape's was permanent because his love remained unrequited. It would make no sense for Snape to produce a doe while he and Lily were still happily friends - that is not an 'upheaval' that would make his doe reflect something other than himself. Whenever he learned it - he was already in a state of unrequited love and going through 'upheaval' about it. And it wouldn't be when he was immersed in DA stuff or Voldemort because that contradicts what JKR told us about those who follow Voldemort not having patronuses. Snape wasn't a goodsider when young, he was a budding Death Eater.

Quote:
The change in Tonks's patronus is IMO a sign that her character is still unsetteled (I hope that's the right word) Some people (in the muggle world ) seem to change completly when they fall in love with a new person (new intrests, new friends, different clothes, different music, different food preferences, new whatever), while others remain who they were, with certain smal changes and additions . The cange in Tonks' patronus shows IMO that something deep inside her has changed, and the 'new Nymphadora' is now represented by another animal.
According to canon, Tonks changed patronus reflected the upheaval in her life that was based on her unrequited love for Remus. She wasn't a new Nymphadora, imo, there is no canon to show this occurred. She didn't change in personality except to become depressed and once she was with Lupin, she wasn't the same depressed person anymore. So I would disagree that she changed in the way you indicate (new music, clothes, etc.) into a new person - she merely went through an upheaval in her life and as a result, according to Lupin, her patronus changed. It is like it reflected her deep unhappiness within even while she used a 'happy thought' to conjure it.


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