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Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.



 
 
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  #1481  
Old September 30th, 2010, 2:58 am
mugglebirth  Undisclosed.gif mugglebirth is offline
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willfitz View Post
It is explained:



By 'imprisonable offence' with regards to apparition, I would assume that the ministry put the same enchantments over the property as exist over Hogwarts.
Again, inconsistency. Fred and George are apparating all over headquarters. And if the magic is performed by someone other than an underage wizard, how is it "traceable?"

And in HBP Dumbledore is apparating with Harry here and there. If it is know in OoTP it should be controlled and monitored in HBP and DH...this is the inconsistency to which I refer.


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  #1482  
Old September 30th, 2010, 3:18 am
dukeatreides_iv  Undisclosed.gif dukeatreides_iv is offline
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

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Originally Posted by mugglebirth View Post
Again, inconsistency. Fred and George are apparating all over headquarters. And if the magic is performed by someone other than an underage wizard, how is it "traceable?"

And in HBP Dumbledore is apparating with Harry here and there. If it is know in OoTP it should be controlled and monitored in HBP and DH...this is the inconsistency to which I refer.
fred and george have come of age and have their apparition licenses. since a witch or wizard have to have a license to apparate, i would just figure the license is magic, and if an overage wizard without a license apparated, it would be detected at the ministry.

harry apparating with dumbledore would be covered by dumbledores license. and who would bother dumbledore.


  #1483  
Old September 30th, 2010, 3:58 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

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Originally Posted by dukeatreides_iv View Post
fred and george have come of age and have their apparition licenses. since a witch or wizard have to have a license to apparate, i would just figure the license is magic, and if an overage wizard without a license apparated, it would be detected at the ministry.

harry apparating with dumbledore would be covered by dumbledores license. and who would bother dumbledore.
Well, I'm not sure that apparating would activate the trace, to be honest. My interpretation of the passage was that they could not perform the magic to remove the spell which blocked apparition while Harry was there, and seeing as it was too dangerous to move Harry out of the area, it was pretty much out of the question to lift the enchantment, if it was possible.

The reason I don't think apparition activates the trace is because while Dobby's hover charm did activate it, his disapparition from 4 Privet Dr. did not, despite occurring within the same radius from Harry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugglebirth
Again, inconsistency. Fred and George are apparating all over headquarters. And if the magic is performed by someone other than an underage wizard, how is it "traceable?"
Because of the way the trace works, as Moody explains in the same chapter I quoted in DH. Magic is detected when performed in the presence of an underage wizard. It seems that either of-age wizards or witches offset the activation of the trace, or they simply ignore it if they know of-age magicians are present, which in my opinion, would be quite inefficient. Either way, I know it is discussed to great length in another part of the series.

Quote:
And in HBP Dumbledore is apparating with Harry here and there. If it is know in OoTP it should be controlled and monitored in HBP and DH...this is the inconsistency to which I refer.
Once again, it is my firm belief that apparition does not set off the trace. Also, Dumbledore could have alerted the Ministry that he would be with Harry that evening.


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  #1484  
Old September 30th, 2010, 6:15 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

Probably been mentioned before, and it's merrily a probably intended oversight (for comedy), but if the quill Ron was using in HBP was a "spell check quill" it means Ron was the world's worst speller. As shown when the quill's charm exhausted itself... Shouldn't it have simply defaulted to a regular quill with no special power?

Although I'd imagine JK would say, if it were brought up, something along the lines of "It would be like Fred and George to make sure the quill sabotages your work once depleted, in order to keep you buying more."


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  #1485  
Old September 30th, 2010, 6:46 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

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Originally Posted by prophet09 View Post
Probably been mentioned before, and it's merrily a probably intended oversight (for comedy), but if the quill Ron was using in HBP was a "spell check quill" it means Ron was the world's worst speller. As shown when the quill's charm exhausted itself... Shouldn't it have simply defaulted to a regular quill with no special power?

Although I'd imagine JK would say, if it were brought up, something along the lines of "It would be like Fred and George to make sure the quill sabotages your work once depleted, in order to keep you buying more."
I think you're speculating the functionality of the object; it's not really an inconsistency. And it's a bit in character for the reasons you gave. I don't think Fred and George would have been considerate enough to make the quill return to normal.


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  #1486  
Old September 30th, 2010, 8:12 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

I thought it was more of a case of the spell "correcting" the work by jumbling the letters up. I see it like the batteries are running out- when your batteries are running out in your TV remote, sometimes you press one button and the remote carries out a completely different function. I see it that way.


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  #1487  
Old September 30th, 2010, 10:03 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

My comments are in italics.


Quote:
Quote:
willfitz: Well, I'm not sure that apparating would activate the trace, to be honest. My interpretation of the passage was that they could not perform the magic to remove the spell which blocked apparition while Harry was there, and seeing as it was too dangerous to move Harry out of the area, it was pretty much out of the question to lift the enchantment, if it was possible.

The reason I don't think apparition activates the trace is because while Dobby's hover charm did activate it, his disapparition from 4 Privet Dr. did not, despite occurring within the same radius from Harry.
Quote:
Because of the way the trace works, as Moody explains in the same chapter I quoted in DH. Magic is detected when performed in the presence of an underage wizard. It seems that either of-age wizards or witches offset the activation of the trace, or they simply ignore it if they know of-age magicians are present, which in my opinion, would be quite inefficient. Either way, I know it is discussed to great length in another part of the series.
Except in DH, Harry is of age. He is leaving the Dursley house for the last time as the magical protection of his mother's sacrifice while living with his muggle relatives is at an end. Harry is of age, he has passed his apparation test in HBP. The use of brooms and the seven Harry's unnecessarily jeopardizes the lives of all involved, particularly Mad Eye. It will make a great action scene in the movies, but is otherwise an inconsistency from my perspective.

Quote:
Once again, it is my firm belief that apparition does not set off the trace. Also, Dumbledore could have alerted the Ministry that he would be with Harry that evening.
If apparating doesn't set off the trace, then there is no reason for not using side apparation in OoTP. Nor for Dumbledore to anounce that he is apparating with a student away from the school (as you can't apparate on Hogwarts grounds). And noting the character relationships between Dumbledore and Fudge I can't imagine him notifying the Ministry particularly when noting the secrecy surrounding the hunt for Horcruxes. I would be remiss if I didn't mention that it is Harry that apparates both he and Dumbledore back from the cave upon retrieving the fake horcrux. Surely such an action would have triggered the alarm that a still underage Harry had performed magic away from Hogwarts.


  #1488  
Old September 30th, 2010, 1:13 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mugglebirth View Post
Except in DH, Harry is of age. He is leaving the Dursley house for the last time as the magical protection of his mother's sacrifice while living with his muggle relatives is at an end. Harry is of age, he has passed his apparation test in HBP. The use of brooms and the seven Harry's unnecessarily jeopardizes the lives of all involved, particularly Mad Eye. It will make a great action scene in the movies, but is otherwise an inconsistency from my perspective.
Harry was not old enough to take the apparition test in HBP - you have to be 17 and Harry's birthday is at the end of July. Hermione and Ron took the test while Harry stayed behind and went to potions class. Hermione passed and got her license. Ron didn't pass because he left half an eyebrow behind so he and Harry were planning on taking the test over the summer together.

Harry was still underage when the Order came to escort him away from Privet Dr. for the last time. They chose to move him before his birthday in hopes of getting him to the Burrow without the Death Eaters realizing it. He had his 17th birthday while he was at the Burrow, but he and Ron were not able to take the apparition test because Voldemort took over the Ministry shortly after Harry's birthday.

There are problems with the Seven Potters scenario, but Harry was underage and that was a complication they had to work around to move him in secret.

Quote:
If apparating doesn't set off the trace, then there is no reason for not using side apparation in OoTP. Nor for Dumbledore to anounce that he is apparating with a student away from the school (as you can't apparate on Hogwarts grounds). And noting the character relationships between Dumbledore and Fudge I can't imagine him notifying the Ministry particularly when noting the secrecy surrounding the hunt for Horcruxes. I would be remiss if I didn't mention that it is Harry that apparates both he and Dumbledore back from the cave upon retrieving the fake horcrux. Surely such an action would have triggered the alarm that a still underage Harry had performed magic away from Hogwarts.
You can't apparate on Hogwarts grounds because there is an anti-apparition jinx in place. That is also true of other locations - particularly after Voldemort returns. For example, we see in HBP and DH that they have placed an anti-apparition jinx at the Burrow so they had to go outside and beyond a certain boundary to apparate. It is likely that Dumbledore did that at Privet Dr. as well because having a protective charm around the house wouldn't do much good if Death Eaters could just apparate directly inside. Dobby would be able to apparate there because he is a house-elf and house-elves could do things that wizards could not - like apparating on Hogwarts grounds.

When the Order picked Harry up at Privet Dr. in OOTP, they did other spells around him - Tonk packed his trunk, Moody did the Disillusionment charm, etc... - so the issue there was not the Trace. They were not concerned about magic being detected then. Since Harry had received an official summons to a disciplinary hearing at the Ministry for using the Patronus charm, it would have been very simple for Dumbledore to inform them that he was sending someone to pick Harry up so he could attend the hearing. Mr. Weasley does tell Harry later that he feels it would be best for Harry to arrive at the Ministry in a thoroughly non-magical way because he was summoned to the hearing for doing underage magic, but considering that they would have been apparating directly inside the Ministry in full view of witnesses, that would not have been an issue of magic being detected so much as a lot of Ministry employees witnessing it.

HBP presents side-along apparition as something that was only allowed in certain circumstances - the Ministry had finally acknowledged Voldemort's return and that traveling out in the open could be dangerous with Death Eaters running amok and wreaking havoc. Prior to that - and in the epilogue - side-along apparition is not commonly used from what we are shown. Lupin does specifically tell the trio that apparition cannot be tracked, but that is in reference to the destination. I think apparition was something that would be detected by the Trace because it is magic. Dobby apparating at Privet Dr. in Harry's presence was not mentioned in his warning letter, but again, Dobby is a house-elf and they can do things that wizards cannot. He wanted Harry to get in trouble for the Hover charm because he was trying to prevent him from going back to Hogwarts at the time.

The problem with how the Trace is presented in DH is that it is implied that it identifies the underage witch or wizard who did magic - specifically, with Hermione speculating that the Trace could be used as a means for the Death Eaters to track Harry and Lupin confirming that they would know exactly where Harry was if he still had the Trace on him. They ruled that out only because Harry was of age and the Trace could not be put on adults. This is a contradiction to Dumbledore telling Harry in HBP that the Ministry could detect magic, but not who did the magic. The Ministry being unable to identify who did the magic would allow for underage witches and wizards to do magic in areas populated by wizards because the Ministry would have no way of knowing who actually did it. And Dumbledore does tell Harry that the Ministry relied on wizarding parents to discipline their own children in regards to underage magic because of that. That allows for Harry to apparate with Dumbledore in Hogsmeade because that is a wizarding village and the Ministry would have no way of knowing who did it.

Changing that so that the Ministry could identify the underage witch or wizard who did magic does cause problems within the story for things like that, but not for magic done at Privet Dr. Even without the specificity added in DH, the Ministry would automatically assume that any magic done at Privet Dr. was done by Harry because he was the only wizard who lived in that area. This was explained in OOTP. In OOTP, they could inform the Ministry that someone would be picking Harry up so he wouldn't get into further trouble. That was not the case in DH because they were not only trying to keep it a secret that Harry was being moved that night from Voldemort, but also from the Ministry because Pius Thicknesse was under Voldemort's control.

However, they could have used a portkey. Portkeys can be set up in advance to activate at a specific time so they would not have had to do any magic in Harry's presence and portkeys cannot be tracked. The Order set up seven unauthorized portkeys that night and the Ministry did not detect any of them - not even the one that Harry used at the Tonks' home. It's not an inconsistency, but I see the Seven Potters as a bad plan all the way around.


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  #1489  
Old September 30th, 2010, 3:50 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meesha1971 View Post
The problem with how the Trace is presented in DH is that it is implied that it identifies the underage witch or wizard who did magic - specifically, with Hermione speculating that the Trace could be used as a means for the Death Eaters to track Harry and Lupin confirming that they would know exactly where Harry was if he still had the Trace on him. They ruled that out only because Harry was of age and the Trace could not be put on adults. This is a contradiction to Dumbledore telling Harry in HBP that the Ministry could detect magic, but not who did the magic.
I don't think there is a contradiction, because I don't think that scene implied that the Ministry could use a trace to possitively identify someone with a trace on them. I think the idea was that if Harry still had a trace, the powers of the Ministry would pick up the Apparition coinciding with the raid on the wedding. Death Eaters came to investigate, but it doesn't seem to me that they knew Harry was there. And as it turned out when we finally got the explanation of how they had found the Trio, they didn't know Harry was there: It was the Taboo, which doesn't seem to identify the person saying "Voldemort", but does give away location, much like a trace.

Quote:
However, they could have used a portkey. Portkeys can be set up in advance to activate at a specific time so they would not have had to do any magic in Harry's presence and portkeys cannot be tracked. The Order set up seven unauthorized portkeys that night and the Ministry did not detect any of them - not even the one that Harry used at the Tonks' home. It's not an inconsistency, but I see the Seven Potters as a bad plan all the way around.
The only possibility that makes sense to me is that the area around the Dursley home had been enchanted by the Ministry to make both Apparition and Portkeys not work there anymore. We know that there are Anti-Disapparation jinxes, and that areas (like Hogwarts and its grounds) can be permanently protected. But it wouldn't matter for the Death Eaters because they couldn't find the Dursley home thanks to Dumbledore's enchantment, so the only effect was to turn the house into a trap for Harry.


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Last edited by OldMotherCrow; September 30th, 2010 at 3:53 pm.
  #1490  
Old September 30th, 2010, 3:58 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

If magic can't be traced in Magical homes, why can't they use it in the Weasley's home or in Diagon Alley.


  #1491  
Old September 30th, 2010, 5:54 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

Reading Half Blood Prince and in the Chapter The Seer Overheard.. when Harry was questioning Trewlany about the ROR she says something to the effect " I wasn't aware students knew about the room"

Really? during the OOTP when Umbridge discovered D A in there wouldn't that have been a topic of conversation in the teachers lounge? trivial but it stood out..after reading it umpteen times.


  #1492  
Old September 30th, 2010, 6:36 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REMEMBERALL View Post
Reading Half Blood Prince and in the Chapter The Seer Overheard.. when Harry was questioning Trewlany about the ROR she says something to the effect " I wasn't aware students knew about the room"

Really? during the OOTP when Umbridge discovered D A in there wouldn't that have been a topic of conversation in the teachers lounge? trivial but it stood out..after reading it umpteen times.
Yeah, that does seem kinda strange. It may have been that the teachers simply weren't aware of where the meetings had been taking place, after all, after Dumbledore's escape I doubt Umbridge would have liked it to become a topic of general discussion. And also, perhaps Trewlawney wasn't aware of what the room really was, to her it seemed to become The Room of Hidden Things. Perhaps she never made the connection between that room and the D.A's headquarters. After all, most people who use it can't be aware of it's true nature. Fred and George had once used it, but to them it had become a broom cupboard, in order to hide from Filch.
It does seem weird though, considering that the room is packed with stuff which obviously must come from students. However Trelawney did always see herself as somewhat superior to others...


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  #1493  
Old September 30th, 2010, 6:46 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by REMEMBERALL View Post
Reading Half Blood Prince and in the Chapter The Seer Overheard.. when Harry was questioning Trewlany about the ROR she says something to the effect " I wasn't aware students knew about the room"

Really? during the OOTP when Umbridge discovered D A in there wouldn't that have been a topic of conversation in the teachers lounge? trivial but it stood out..after reading it umpteen times.
I agree with TeenMuggle's answer, but would like to add that we know that Trelawney rarely went to meals in the Great Hall (I think she goes to 2 or 3 in the whole series) so maybe she also didn't go into the teacher's lounge? So even if the teachers did talk about it she wouldn't have heard about it.


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  #1494  
Old September 30th, 2010, 6:48 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

Or the simpler explanation: Trelawney was lying. Which is even more likely given that she was using it to hide her empty bottles.


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  #1495  
Old September 30th, 2010, 7:11 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v2.

As we near 1500 posts, here's the new version of this thread


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