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Homeschooling: should it be legal or illegal in California?



 
 
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  #41  
Old April 3rd, 2008, 2:03 am
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Re: Homeschooling: should it be legal or illegal in California?

I'm homeschooled, so I, of course, do not think it should be illegal. Mainstream schooling is simply not the right fit for certain students. I used to go to one of the best public high schools in my state, so a lot of people wonder why I would possibly be homeschooled, but it really is just a better situation for me. My old school is extremely competetive; seven students got into Harvard last year, anything less than a 4.0 GPA is considered bad. I was always completely overwhelmed by work, and extremely stressed. I had difficulty keeping up, and I felt like I had so much pressure on myself to live up to the expectations of students at my school. I also have ADD, which doesn't help. My life has improved drastically since I left that school. I am so much happier, and I'm also learning more than I ever have before. I'm able to learn about things that interest me, which makes it significantly easier. I have more time to do things I've always wanted to do - learn another language (I took French in school, and am still learning it, but I've always wanted to study another language), read more, among other things. I do believe that it should be monitered carefully, and parents should be required to provide proof that students are receiving an adequate education, but I don't see any reason for it to be illegal.


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  #42  
Old April 3rd, 2008, 3:25 am
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Re: Homeschooling: should it be legal or illegal in California?

I've met some very bright people who were home schooled, but it really depends on the parents.

I'm not sure it's the best option for everyone, and I also believe strongly there need to be standardized tests to be sure the home-schooled are keeping up.


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Old April 3rd, 2008, 5:11 am
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Re: Homeschooling: should it be legal or illegal in California?

Quote:
Originally Posted by USNAGator91 View Post
Celest, consider this, in assessing homeschooling success:
The bolding is mine and is the key element, in my opinion, in this debate. What do the parents think and what do they want? Shouldn't they have the final say in the matter?

I would be more interested in seeing something that showed me out of 1.1 million children being home schooled exactly what are their test scores and are they graduating in a timely manner. Are as many going on to college. I would also like to see projected success models on how they do when they eventually start working and interacting with others. In other words, what are the long term effects of home schooling.


I also think that the parents should be given a test to make sure they have the ability and drive to home school their children properly? Can someone tell me if that is already being done? Do parents have to meet certain academic standards in order to teach their children at home.


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  #44  
Old April 3rd, 2008, 6:38 am
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Re: Homeschooling: should it be legal or illegal in California?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CelestLBeing View Post
I also think that the parents should be given a test to make sure they have the ability and drive to home school their children properly? Can someone tell me if that is already being done? Do parents have to meet certain academic standards in order to teach their children at home.
That's the debate in CA. They are now insisting parents meet standards (Q. could the schoolteachers in CA meet same standards? My guess is not).


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Old April 3rd, 2008, 7:49 am
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Re: Homeschooling: should it be legal or illegal in California?

It would be difficult to determine whether parents can be good teachers IMO. My mum was able to teach me maths and languages 100 times better than any teacher I've ever met. My father is a better artist than every art teacher I had yet I feel I would have failed miserably in homeschooling.
While there are many good teachers out there I have had the misfortune of being handed out many terrible ones (many who seem to hate kids). Having said that parents are hardly impartial judges. If I showed my mother/father something I had created they would tell me it is the greatest thing they'd ever seen (and I'm almost 18 )... because they're my parents. Some parents would not be able to separate these feelings from the necessity to teach their children how to be the best they can be. Teachers have hurt my feelings in the past by giving me grades I felt were unfair but in the end it only made me work harder.

While I think about it too, school is the number one place I made friends. Of course when you leave school you make friends at university, work etc but friends are a very important part of childhood. I am aware that there are programs to connect homeschooling children to each other but the number one reason I wouldn't homeschool my kids is because I want them to be as exposed to 'real life' as possible. I spent 9 years at an all girls' school and the exposure level was 0. I was never exposed to people of other cultural backgrounds, religions, lifestyle and of course, never experienced what it was like to have a normal relationship with boys (I later moved to a mixed-sex school and found it to be so eye-opening). If that is how I felt being at a general school (though it was private, top of the line) I don't think I could cope, and I would never put my kids through homeschooling.
(Yes, I am also aware there are other ways of making friends than school eg sport)

Homeschooling shouldn't be illegal but I would hope that before parents are allowed to homeschool their kids they are 'counseled' about it (for lack of better word) and it is determined this is the best thing for the child involved.


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  #46  
Old April 3rd, 2008, 1:31 pm
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Re: Homeschooling: should it be legal or illegal in California?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hysteria View Post
It would be difficult to determine whether parents can be good teachers IMO. My mum was able to teach me maths and languages 100 times better than any teacher I've ever met. My father is a better artist than every art teacher I had yet I feel I would have failed miserably in homeschooling.
While there are many good teachers out there I have had the misfortune of being handed out many terrible ones (many who seem to hate kids). Having said that parents are hardly impartial judges. If I showed my mother/father something I had created they would tell me it is the greatest thing they'd ever seen (and I'm almost 18 )... because they're my parents. Some parents would not be able to separate these feelings from the necessity to teach their children how to be the best they can be. Teachers have hurt my feelings in the past by giving me grades I felt were unfair but in the end it only made me work harder.

While I think about it too, school is the number one place I made friends. Of course when you leave school you make friends at university, work etc but friends are a very important part of childhood. I am aware that there are programs to connect homeschooling children to each other but the number one reason I wouldn't homeschool my kids is because I want them to be as exposed to 'real life' as possible. I spent 9 years at an all girls' school and the exposure level was 0. I was never exposed to people of other cultural backgrounds, religions, lifestyle and of course, never experienced what it was like to have a normal relationship with boys (I later moved to a mixed-sex school and found it to be so eye-opening). If that is how I felt being at a general school (though it was private, top of the line) I don't think I could cope, and I would never put my kids through homeschooling.
(Yes, I am also aware there are other ways of making friends than school eg sport)

Homeschooling shouldn't be illegal but I would hope that before parents are allowed to homeschool their kids they are 'counseled' about it (for lack of better word) and it is determined this is the best thing for the child involved.

Hysteria, are you saying the state is better at identifying what is best for a parent's child than the parent is? Yes, the parent may have a certain bias, but one that is filtered by an absolute desire to accomplish what is best for their own child, and less about what is best for the collective whole.

My children actually attend public schools, however, the decision of where to send them was a decision based on careful scrutiny of what best fits their educational needs. I find it very troublesome that the state seeks to intrude on parental rights in this way. As I posted before, the judge who ruled here indicated that a primary reason for state education:

Quote:
"A primary purpose of the educational system is to train schoolchildren in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare."
Did you notice that he did not use the word "educate" here?

Schools are not the only place to experience socialization for children. There are any number of avenues that would provide that experience, including work/study groups organized by the homeschool parents themselves and it is the responsibility of the PARENTS, not the state to ensure that socialization occurs.

Here is the key for me, the public school monopoly has consistently failed our children. If there is an alternative that the parents want to follow, like homeschooling, more power to them. It is NOT the state's place to determine what is in my children's best interest. As a parent, I am the only person who will advocate for what my child needs. Frankly, it's not anyone else's business just like it's none mine as to what other parents do in executing their kid's educational plan.


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  #47  
Old April 4th, 2008, 2:31 am
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Re: Homeschooling: should it be legal or illegal in California?

Quote:
Originally Posted by USNAGator91 View Post
Frankly, it's not anyone else's business just like it's none mine as to what other parents do in executing their kid's educational plan.
Even if it includes "teaching" at a standard which would render them unemployable?

(Which is not to say that's an inevitable consequence of homeschooling but with no state monitoring the need, and availability, of remedial teaching could be easily missed.)

And it is not always the system that fails the kids sometimes it is the other way around; not everybody is smart (very politically incorrect to say so, but there you go).


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  #48  
Old April 4th, 2008, 3:22 am
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Re: Homeschooling: should it be legal or illegal in California?

Where I'm from, every child is required to attend school from the age of 6. For 10 years school is mandatory, and in general I think people perfrom quite well. After the age of 15/16 we can opt to go to a 2-4 year college (depending on how much you take each year) before university. Some people do drop out but it seems to be very easy to get into college to get your diploma from there and many enroll years after they graduate school.

Anyway, point being, I am not sure I agree with homeschooling. Iceland has the highest literacy rate in the world, 100%, and literally there is no child left behind. Yes, schools vary, but all schools bar two are public schools so the government is not forced into competetion with private insitituions. I don't think it should be illegal but after watching films like Jesus Camo it makes you wonder what homeschooling can do to our future generations.

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Old April 4th, 2008, 1:28 pm
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Re: Homeschooling: should it be legal or illegal in California?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lindaluna View Post
That's the debate in CA. They are now insisting parents meet standards (Q. could the schoolteachers in CA meet same standards? My guess is not).
You don't believe that certified educators with degrees could meet the same academic standards as a parent who wishes to teach their kids at home? If you have some information I don't about the quality of higher education in California, that's one thing, but I'm willing to bet that most teachers are more qualified to teach than most uncertified (and perhaps even uneducated) parents are.

Say what you will about a high school diploma, getting even a Bachelor of Arts is an accomplishment far and away more demanding than graduating high school. And I don't really know about California, but a Master's degree and teaching certificate are usually required for full-time teachers in Ohio.

I have to ask, what argument can there possibly be against requiring educators to be qualified? Being a good parent or even a brilliant person don't make someone a good teacher, and being certified doesn't either, but we're better off with standards than we are without. Imagine if public schools around the country required only a high school diploma and sincerity?


  #50  
Old April 4th, 2008, 2:02 pm
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Re: Homeschooling: should it be legal or illegal in California?

Quote:
Originally Posted by USNAGator91 View Post
Here is the key for me, the public school monopoly has consistently failed our children. If there is an alternative that the parents want to follow, like homeschooling, more power to them. It is NOT the state's place to determine what is in my children's best interest. As a parent, I am the only person who will advocate for what my child needs. Frankly, it's not anyone else's business just like it's none mine as to what other parents do in executing their kid's educational plan.
It saddens me to think that a judge's personal opinions on homeschooling have effected thousands of families. Families, btw, who have been complying with rules and regulations set forth by the state of California for years. Now, all of a sudden, they are criminals?!?!?

Quote:
Originally Posted by canismajoris View Post
Imagine if public schools around the country required only a high school diploma and sincerity?
Coming from a realistic viewpoint I don't think parents would care if their children were recieving instruction from someone with a degree and someone who doesn't providing that their child was learning. Public schools should require certification as people expect to get what they pay for (i.e public schools are funded by taxpayer monies and government subsidies). In other words, since the public school system is so large, it would be impossible for evey parent in a town to sit down one-on-one with every teacher applying for a job and decide on an individual basis who would teach their child the best. Never mind decide for other parents who would teach THEIR child the best. Just writing that causes confusion! Hence why the certifications are needed for the school. Certification provides some measure of security for the school system but it does not a good teacher make.

Secondly, lets look at California which requires homeschooling parents to register as a private schools. Many private schools throughout the country are not required to have certified teachers. Many Waldorf schools, for instance, require their teachers be certfied in the WALDORF method (eventually) but do not require their teachers to have any other degree or even ECE credits.

And speaking of ECE (Early Childhood Education) credits, since many schools can not find certified teachers you can find schools, especially in the midwest, where the minimum requirement for teachers is a few ECE's, nevermind a degree. Then you get into the whole teachers aide's and paraprofessionals and curriculum requiring advanced students to teach the lesser advanced students (as Monster Mom's math curriculum for her son seems to do), and you have to wonder if being certified is all it's cracked up to be.


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Old April 4th, 2008, 8:34 pm
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Re: Homeschooling: should it be legal or illegal in California?

I'm of the opinion that the whole "certification" drive is a canard. A March 2006 study by Dartmouth College found:

Quote:
On average, the certification status of a teacher has at most small impacts on student test performance. However, among those with the same certification status, there are large and persistent differences in teacher effectiveness.
Source: What Does Certification Tell Us About Teacher Effectiveness?
Evidence from New York City


Combine that with the release of this week's study by America's Promise that indicates that the fifty largest school districts in the country barely graduate half of their students from high school, my confidence in the certification process is not very high.

Henry Kissenger would not be allowed to teach high school history in California because he is not "certified". He is, however, qualified. This has to be about students. Only their families are best positioned to identify the best path for their kids, and if that path be homeschooling, it's not for anyone else to dictate.


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  #52  
Old April 4th, 2008, 8:44 pm
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Re: Homeschooling: should it be legal or illegal in California?

Quote:
Originally Posted by USNAGator91 View Post
Henry Kissenger would not be allowed to teach high school history in California because he is not "certified". He is, however, qualified. This has to be about students. Only their families are best positioned to identify the best path for their kids, and if that path be homeschooling, it's not for anyone else to dictate.
ITA, Gator. Looking forward to reading your link when I have the time...and can find my stinkin' glasses. (When did my eyes start going so bad )


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  #53  
Old April 5th, 2008, 3:16 am
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Re: Homeschooling: should it be legal or illegal in California?

You know... there was a story in the news here, like a month or two ago, about a teacher in a California school who finally admitted to being illiterate after several years of teaching...

*goes to find it*

http://my.highschooljournalism.org/c...256&aid=171245
http://www.10news.com/news/15274005/detail.html
http://www.johncorcoranfoundation.com/pages/story.html


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  #54  
Old April 5th, 2008, 3:23 am
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Re: Homeschooling: should it be legal or illegal in California?

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Originally Posted by Pox Voldius View Post
You know... there was a story in the news here, like a month or two ago, about a teacher in a California school who finally admitted to being illiterate after several years of teaching...
Wow. Just....wow!


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  #55  
Old April 5th, 2008, 5:02 pm
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Re: Homeschooling: should it be legal or illegal in California?

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Originally Posted by CelestLBeing View Post
I would be more interested in seeing something that showed me out of 1.1 million children being home schooled exactly what are their test scores and are they graduating in a timely manner. Are as many going on to college. I would also like to see projected success models on how they do when they eventually start working and interacting with others. In other words, what are the long term effects of home schooling.
To the best of my searching abilities, there haven't been any studies into homeschooling because homeschoolers are outside government control and don't have to participate in government studies.

The only comparisons available are those in spelling, math, and geography bees and SAT scores. And in that front homeschooled kids are performing better than their public or private schooled counterparts.

http://www.oakmeadow.com/resources/a...WSJArticle.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...030703734.html


Quote:
I also think that the parents should be given a test to make sure they have the ability and drive to home school their children properly? Can someone tell me if that is already being done? Do parents have to meet certain academic standards in order to teach their children at home.
In the US it depends on the state, the local municipality, the reason for homeschooling, and the type of homeschooling. You can check out this link to find the rules in your state.

http://www.hslda.org/hs/state/default.asp


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  #56  
Old April 13th, 2008, 12:53 am
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Re: Homeschooling: should it be legal or illegal in California?

Homeschooling is a sensitive and intricate subject. I personally have heard people say it's bad with a back up of a theory that homeschooled children are antisocial. Personally, i am for homeschooling. I myself was in a way homeschooled when i began the Kumon program. It improved my mathematics capibility amazingly. If your parent believes they are capable of providing you with the education you need then i say GO FOR IT!!


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  #57  
Old April 13th, 2008, 10:51 am
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Re: Homeschooling: should it be legal or illegal in California?

I absolutely think homeschooling should be legal. This court decision directly contradicts case precedent that says parents have a fundamental right to care, custody, and control of their children, including deciding the method of education they want for their children. This is another example of government stepping in and disallowing individuals the right to parent their children.

Libertarian presidential candidate Wayne Allyn Root has blatantly called the court on this. He is a homeschool parent himself, and his blog shows he is absolutely staggered as to this decision. I stand with him on this issue.


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  #58  
Old April 13th, 2008, 11:11 am
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Re: Homeschooling: should it be legal or illegal in California?

I don't think homeschooling should be prohibited, but it should be better monitored to ensure a balanced curriculum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_mom View Post
In the US it depends on the state, the local municipality, the reason for homeschooling, and the type of homeschooling. You can check out this link to find the rules in your state.
The science education of children who are homeschooled by religiously conservative parents may not be up to standard. I've had conversations on this forum with homeschooled kids who lacked basic science skills. Now I realize that public schools are also falling down on the job in science education, but at least they actually taught the subjects.


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Old April 13th, 2008, 4:11 pm
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Re: Homeschooling: should it be legal or illegal in California?

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Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
I don't think homeschooling should be prohibited, but it should be better monitored to ensure a balanced curriculum.
Balanced according to whom? In my county we have just begun the "math wars" after our local school district adopted a reform math curriculum. To advocates of reform math, teaching long division or how to solve fraction problems with a common denominator would be inappropriate and seriously undermine a child's ability to develop number sense (I kid you not - just google fuzzy math and see what comes back). Remember the reading wars over total language v/s phonics? They've been replaced with the math wars which will soon be joined by the science wars.

Time and time again the leaders of the education industry in the US have decided to change how we teach core topics and what we teach those topics with. Time and time again their theories have fallen flat and we've reverted back to basics or adopted more blended curricula. I'm not comfortable with these people telling home school parents what they can or can not teach their children.

Quote:
The science education of children who are homeschooled by religiously conservative parents may not be up to standard. I've had conversations on this forum with homeschooled kids who lacked basic science skills. Now I realize that public schools are also falling down on the job in science education, but at least they actually taught the subjects.
Government standards for science education are abysmal. Religiously conservative parents probably don't teach specific topics (like evolution or human sexuality) but I'd be surprised if the skipped out on biology, earth science, chemistry, physics, or astronomy.

I guess it just depends on the standards the state has. I know VA has some pretty tough standards, like annual testing, but I don't know about the standards in other states.


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  #60  
Old April 13th, 2008, 10:02 pm
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Re: Homeschooling: should it be legal or illegal in California?

And that doesn't even get into the unschooling debate. For those who don't know, unschooling is like homeschooling with no set curriculum. It holds that people learn best when left to their own devices. I wouldn't do homeschooling or unschooling personally, but some parents swear by it, and this decision strips their rights to decide how they want to educate their children.


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