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Was Harry's memory modified?

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Old August 24th, 2007, 6:34 am
matwizard  Undisclosed.gif matwizard is offline
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Re: Was Harry's memory modified?

Originaly posted by Shewoman
--Why would Dumbledore do that? And in DH he does remember the PI experience. I don't know that it's something he'd think of regularly except when he was preparing to face Dumbledore. I think he also probably thinks of his parents often; JKR doesn't write every time that happens because it would get old.
I’ve gone through this before with the critics. Flying cars, inflating aunts, Pollyjuice Potions, the Sorcerer’s Stone, the Basilick battle, the Dementors on the lake I counted a dozen mentions in Phoenix, the dragons, the man eating spiders, est. But Priori Incantatum, seeing your dead parents reappear would be old? Don’t you think it’s odd to keep leaving that out, much less never mention it in two books?

--He has nightmares about it; Dudley teases him at the beginning of OotP and Harry knows what he's talking about--he doesn't ask who Cedric is. He knows that Cedric's death isn't his fault. He had no way of knowing what would happen when they touched that Cup. No one would blame him for Cedric's death because of that
Why would he ask who Cedric is?
As I said, it doesn't matter if no one else blamed him, Harry blamed himself for Cedric's death at the end of GOF, (GOF. page 714 "It wasn't your fault, Harry," whispered Mrs. Weasley. "I told him to take the cup with me," said Harry. But that guilt disappeared by the next book. Harry blamed himself for Sirius despite the fact that no one warned him about the plot to lure him to the D.O.M, he even blamed himself for Dumbledore even though he’s the only one who took Malfroy’s plotting with the Death Eaters seriously. Harry blames himself every time his actions or the actions of others in the name of protecting him endangers the lives of those he cares about.

--He does remember. In "Professor Umbridge," OotP, when Umbridge says there's no need for the students to learn DADA, Harry says "So, according to you, Cedric Diggory dropped dead of his own accord, did he"? She says it was a tragic accident. "It was murder," said Harry. "Voldemort killed him, and you know it.
Cho asks him about Cedric on their date at Mme Puddifoot's in OotP; she wants to know if Cedric had time to say anything about her. He tells her no, there was no time for that, and he's right.
"Voldemort killed him, and you know it" says he does not remember Pettigrew killed him. We would have heard Harry say to himself "This was true, even though Wormtail killed him, Voldemort gave the order.

--His friends already know about Cedric's death, because Dumbledore told them at the end-of-year banquet (plus many of them were there when Harry and Cedric's body returned from the graveyard). As I recall, he never mentions that Pettigrew killed Cedric (although that may have come out in his interview with the Quibbler in Order; we don't actually see that). But he clearly does remember: in "The Hogwarts High Inquisitor," OotP, when Hermione asks him about teaching DADA, he says "you two sit there acting like I'm a clever little boy to be standing here, alive, like Diggory was stupid, like he messed up--you just don't get it, that could just as easily have been me, it would have been if Voldemort hadn't needed me--"
Then why doesn’t Harry say he never would have gotten out of there without Cedric’s help? Especially, to his two best friends who he supposedly told the whole story to.
Why do we hear him say; But that was luck, that wasn’t skill.
Yeah, but if Fawkes hadn’t shown up I’d have…
You know that was a fluke, if the time-turner hadn’t…
But not; Only because the connection between our wands brought my parents and the others back to help? Why doesn't Harry say that when Ron counts off the examples of all of Harry's achievements? Why does he go ramble on and on saying; "I didn't get through any of that because I was brilliant at defense against the dark arts, I got through it because--help came at the right time, or because I guessed right-but I just blundered through it all, I didn't have a clue what I was doing-"?
Why put in all that unless to very carefully not mention Priori Incantatum?

Matwizard: "I've used Expelliarmus against him, it saved my life last June." How did you come this close to the subject, and not think "This is it, their going to push until I tell them about the wands connecting"? Because you don't remember.

--Why mention the PI here? He's teaching a DADA class. They're not going to experience PI if they duel Voldemort; they don't have brother wands with him.
Harry would have thought to himself how close he had come to telling them about PI. And he certainly would have thought how dangerous it was telling them a Disarming charm would save them if it only worked for those two wands.

Originaly posted by bryanweasley
You contradict yourself. Harry didn't lie. Voldemort wanted Cedric dead because he was "the spare." It wasn't misleading. Yes, he wanted Harry dead, and yes Voldemort sent an AK Curse at him. If Harry didn't have the brother core of Voldemort's wand, he would have died too.
Originaly posted by Shewoman
--It's not misleading info. Voldemort wanted "the spare" killed. He didn't know it was Cedric, but he didn't want an extra kid around.
The only reason Cedric was there, the only reason Voldemort wanted to kill him, the only reason he told Pettigrew to “kill the spare,” was because Harry took him. Harry would see that as misleading.
“He did know these spells. He was really good at them, but if Voldemort wants to kill you, you don’t stand a chance.” (Movie version) “He was good at them, it’s just, Voldemort was better,” is not what Harry would say if he knew Pettigrew did the killing.
Neither would "It was murder," said Harry. "Voldemort killed him, and you know it.”
"you two sit there acting like I'm a clever little boy to be standing here, alive, like Diggory was stupid, like he messed up” is not what Harry would say if he knew Cedric was there because of him

Little details like that have always been explained in the books.

(GOF p462)“I got told off for going in there said Harry, which was half true; Percy had once caught him coming out of Myrtle’s bathroom. I thought I’d better not come back after that.”
(OOTP p301)”You didn’t tell me you’d written to Sirius” said Hermione accusingly. “I forgot” said Harry, which was perfectly true; his meeting with Cho in the Owlery had driven everything before it out of his mind.
(OOTP p227)”What did that mean?” Said Hermione looking from Harry to Ron. “Ask no questions… does that wean they’ve already got some gold to start o joke shop?” “You know I’ve been wondering about that,” said Ron. “They brought me a new set of dress robes this summer and I couldn’t understand where they got the Gallons.” Harry thought it was time to steer this conversation out of these dangerous waters.
(OOTO p362)”Harry did not answer. He knew exactly why the subject of people who were in St. Mungo’s because of magical damage to their brains was highly distressing to Neville, but he had sworn to Dumbledore that he would not tell anyone Neville’s secret.
(HBP p46)”Albus Dumbledore,” said Dumbledore. “We have corresponded of course.” Harry thought this an odd way of reminding Aunt Pertunia that he had once sent her an exploding letter, but Aunt Pertunia did not challenge the term.

But big details like who threw the killing curse or how Expelliamus saved his life by bringing back his parents to help are unimportant or would get old.

--He does remember, as I've clearly shown. He doesn't feel guilty about it, though, and he shouldn't. No one except Cho actually ever asks him about it. There is a certain reticence in the books about asking questions in general. Harry meets his father's two best friends and doesn't really ask them anything about James until after he sees Snape's Worst Memory. He never asks them, or Dumbledore, or McG, or Slughorn, all of whom knew Lily, anything about her. Maybe Americans (like me) are just nosier.
What about Seamus, Zacharias Smith, and everyone else who was silently pushing Harry to tell the story. And doesn’t the fact that he never asked the Order anything about his parents, or talks to his Godfather about that night even more proof that he doesn’t remember? As I recall, everyone was nosing in to what the Order was doing to stop Voldemort.

--He told the story because he wanted everyone to know Voldemort was back and how dangerous he was.
I’m afraid that’s a contradiction. Now he’s ready to answer questions no one asked? Now he’s ready to tell the full story over Dumbledore’s short one? And that doesn’t explain why he didn’t want to warn Cho about it, or why he wasn’t shocked and angry to find himself asked to share this very personal story to of all people Rita Skeeter?

Matwizard: Why did Dumbledore fight so hard to keep Harry out of his duel with Voldemort at the D.O.M? Because he knows Harry doesn't remember Priori Incantatum.
--or because he does't want Harry to DIE.
How has keeping Harry out of the fight helped him? Can Dumbledore prevent the prophecy by keeping Harry from facing Voldemort? No. Keeping Harry in the dark on need to know information led to tragedy. Did Dumbledore teach defensive spells to help him in the fight? No, he spent a year showing him memories that could have been completed in two or three days tops. Then he took Harry on a mission to find a locket he could have already guessed R.A.B had. Then when facing another battle made sure Harry stayed out of it again. And in the end left Harry with the job of finding four Horcrux’s on his own, with very little information. What good has that done Harry? Unless, his finial battle must take place at a certain time with a certain memory?

--I don't understand this at all. If you mean that JKR tried to keep this from us, I don't think she'd've put it on her website.
She released to her website to not give details about what happened to Harry’s memory during those days. If I’m right, Harry’s memories were modified right around then. Maybe something important happened when he went for the map. All I know is the next day, Harry had already forgotten about Voldemort saying he can’t get him at the Dursley’s. Most of the critics say that's just trauma, I doute that. That’s information he’s waited ages for.
(OOTP p501)"Then you told me two years later on the night that Voldemort returned to his body, that he made a most illuminating and alarming statement to his death eaters. "I who have gone further then anybody along the path that leads to immortality." That was what you told me he said."
When I first read that line I thought it would make or break my theory, but it said enough to say either Harry gave a pretty good account of that night, or Dubledore's got the memory in a bottle.

Originally Posted by Nandra
I don't mean to sound argumentative, but... how do you explain all of his memories of the graveyard?
A couple examples: his dreams about Cedric and obvious touchiness about them; the new worst memory when he's attacked by dementors; his memory of Cedric during his Occlumency lesson with Snape; his interview with Rita Skeeter (obviously he had to have information, or it would never have convinced people)
Harry’s nightmares are all about Cedric being killed in the graveyard, not about Cedric or Harry’s parents coming out of Voldemort’s wand. The Dememtor took Harry to just before the duel started, “Bow to death, it might even be painless. I would not know I have never died.” Not to where he saw his parents reappear.
“Mum, Dad, come and help me, he’s killed Cedric,” that’s the closest Harry comes to putting his parents in that graveyard. No other dream puts the two together, and it doesn’t mean he remembers they came. This is classic suppressed memories fighting to get out.

Originally Posted by Shewoman
Matwizard: In H.B.P, why has Ollivanders disappeared, possibly in hiding? Because he's the only person who can tell Voldemort the wands are brothers.
--Voldemort knows that.
Now he does, it looks like he caught up to Ollivanders in DH. I now risk a tiny spoiler and say if page seven isn’t proof that Voldemort has only just discovered Priori Incantatum, fifteen months after the Quibble article came out, one year after his second attempt to kill Harry with his wand. Then I don’t know what is. That’s the information he was desperate for, the information he was after prophecy for, the information Harry did not put in that Quibble article. If he had told the whole story, which OOTP pretty much says he did, (Rita had pressed him for every little detail, and he had given her all he could remember knowing it was his one chance to tell the world the truth.) There’s nothing about leaving anything out for any reason. If Harry told the whole story, then the secret would no longer matter. But Voldemort was after the prophecy, Ollivanders went missing for a year, a different story was told in the Quibble.
What is the other story? I’ve only ever had one clue, (OOTP p614)”Yes, do let’s hear the latest (censored) story designed to pull Potter out of trouble! Go on then Dumbledore, go on-Willy Waddershin was lying was he? Or was it Potter identical twin in the Hog’s Head that day? Or is there the usual explanation involving a reversal of time, a dead man coming back to life, and a couple of invisible dementors?” Fudge can’t have found out about Harry and Hermione’s time travel adventure, or he would’ve used it against them and Dumbledore. So what did that mean? It’s got to relate to what’s really in the article.

--he mentions Cedric's death three lines after the last line you quote
I don’t care how many times he mentioned Cedric’s death. I want to hear him mention him reappearing with Harry’s parents just once. Because so far nothing, which tells me he doesn’t remember it.

--Why should he answer questions Cho never asks? He answers the ones she does ask.
--No. She doesn't ask for more details.
As I said when Harry gives small details we hear him think about it later. I also said he may have felt he owed it to Cedric and the other echo's or he may have felt it better left unsaid. Either way, we would have heard his thoughts on this, unless he didn't remember.

Originaly posted by Shewoman
--The memory of Cedric does come up in Occlumency--p. 535, US hardback.
The first time he can remember seeing his parents move and smile is in the Mirror of Erised. And he is captivated by it until Dumbledore takes it away. I don't think we hear him think about the Mirror of Erised experience with his parents again. Does that mean his memory's been modified?
Cedric's dead body comes up in Occlumency, the Mirror comes up in Occlumency, but not Cedric and Harry's parent's reappearing in the graveyard.

That's all for now.

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Old August 24th, 2007, 5:38 pm
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Re: Was Harry's memory modified?

I simply think that if his mind was modified Dumbledore (or in some way, JK) would have mentioned it. What would be the point of doing something in a fictional series and not mentioning it anywhere?

Old August 24th, 2007, 7:14 pm
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Re: Was Harry's memory modified?

Hmm...If Harry didn't remember the Priori Incantatum, why would he be calling out in his sleep for his parents to help him, when dreaming about the graveyard? We know this because of Dudley's mocking of him about what he heard Harry saying in his sleep.

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Old August 28th, 2007, 10:40 pm
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
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Re: Was Harry's memory modified?

He, Hermione, and Sirius were nearly Kissed by dementors in PoA. Ron mentions that later, but I don't think Harry ever does. That must have been terrifying . . . but I don't think it means he doesn't remember it. He saw Dumbledore killed in HBP, but I don't think he dreams of it or mentions specifically having that memory in DH. Doesn't mean he doesn't.

WHY DUMBLEDORE TRUSTED SNAPE: PoA 204-5, 285, 361; GoF 588, 590-91; 709-10; OotP 363, 841-3; HBP 549 (American hardbacks). It's not because he said he was remorseful, it's what he did about it.
Old August 29th, 2007, 4:01 pm
RaynePhoenix  Female.gif RaynePhoenix is offline
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Re: Was Harry's memory modified?

The ghosts only spoke to Harry in Priori Incantatum When Harry and Voldemorts wands were joined. I had the feeling they only talked because of this event, which is why Harry probably didn't use that to talk to his parents, He would have to face, and attack Voldemort to do so, rendering this option useless. But then again, I could be wrong.


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Old August 29th, 2007, 6:27 pm
Half_Blood26  Male.gif Half_Blood26 is offline
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Re: Was Harry's memory modified?

Originally Posted by Shewoman View Post
I believe JKR has said that Pensieve memories can't be used as evidence because they can be doctored (as Slughorn's in HBP was).

Old August 30th, 2007, 6:10 pm
CleanSweepSeven  Female.gif CleanSweepSeven is offline
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Re: Was Harry's memory modified?

I really like this memory-modified theory. I don't think it could have happened, because the counter-evidence is pretty convincing, but I really like this theory. It's very well researched and thought-provoking.


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