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  #1  
Old April 20th, 2007, 9:41 am
snuka  Female.gif snuka is offline
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Theory on Fawkes

We haven't heard everything about him, especially his past. Now this is speculation, but I think Fawkes also had a big role pre-PS.

1) Perhaps there was another prophecy about the Chosen One, but much earlier. This is why DD was so insistant Tom Riddle was to go to Hogwarts that he came to visit him personally; he believed the boy is special.

2) Fawkes delivers the two special wand feathers simoultaneously for the two most significant attendants of Hogwarts - the two wizards destined to one day fight each other and decide the fate of the wizard world (like DD and Grindelwald years before). It is also possible he delivered the one feather when Tom Riddle was born and when Harry was born. Which would explain DD's interest in both Riddle and Harry.

3) Fawkes took an AK when DD fought Grindelwald, and he maybe healed the wound on DD's knee and probably healed Harry's scar after GH. LV was born on Dec 31st 1926 so he would start studying Hogwarts in 1938, and he was out of school in 1944. Enough time to have met Grindelwald who wasn't defeated until 1945. I wonder if the Grindelwald-LV relationship is like DD-Harry? A wiser, older wizard teaching a young protege?

4) Fawkes is a horcrux. But DD only made one horcrux (and Fawkes "died" during Grindelwald fight. Alternative: Fawkes used up his horcruxiness when LV AKed him in OOTP.).



Last edited by snuka; April 20th, 2007 at 10:07 am.
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  #2  
Old April 20th, 2007, 10:07 am
matt5108  Male.gif matt5108 is offline
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Re: Theory on Fawkes

The fourth theory can't be true. I was said it takes true evil to split your soul to create a horcrux why would Dumbledore do that?

The third theory sounds great, but I don't think even it it were true we wouldn't find out enough that would keep us happy in the final book.

Your second theory, are you implying that the Harry vs Voldemort story could be similar to Dumbledore vs Grindelward? I like how it sounds though.

The first theory... I like the sound of that!


  #3  
Old April 20th, 2007, 10:09 am
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Re: Theory on Fawkes

Quote:
Originally Posted by snuka View Post
We haven't heard everything about him, especially his past. Now this is speculation, but I think Fawkes also had a big role pre-PS.

1) Perhaps there was another prophecy about the Chosen One, but much earlier. This is why DD was so insistant Tom Riddle was to go to Hogwarts that he came to visit him personally; he believed the boy is special.
Dumbledore wasn't Headmaster then, going to visit students in Muggle houses is a routine thing for some of the teachers to do. Riddle would have a place at Hogwarts whether he was 'special' or not.

Quote:
3) Fawkes took an AK when DD fought Grindelwald, and he maybe healed the wound on DD's knee and probably healed Harry's scar after GH. LV was born in 1926 so he would start studying Hogwarts in 1937, and he was out of school in 1943. Enough time to have met Grindelwald who wasn't defeated until two years later. I wonder if the Grindelwald-LV relationship is like DD-Harry? A wiser, older wizard teaching a young protege?
Voldemort started at Hogwarts in September 1938 and left school in the summer of 1945, the year that Grindelwald was defeated. There's no indication of the time of year for the battle between Grindelwald and Dumbledore but even so there isn't much time for Riddle to tag along with him, particularly as Dumbledore says he immediately began working at Borgin & Burkes.

Quote:
4) Fawkes is a horcrux. But DD only made one horcrux (and Fawkes "died" during Grindelwald fight. Alternative: Fawkes used up his horcruxiness when LV AKed him in OOTP.).
I don't believe Dumbledore would make a Horcrux, personally.


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Old April 20th, 2007, 12:11 pm
snuka  Female.gif snuka is offline
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Re: Theory on Fawkes

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenEye View Post


Voldemort started at Hogwarts in September 1938 and left school in the summer of 1945, the year that Grindelwald was defeated. There's no indication of the time of year for the battle between Grindelwald and Dumbledore but even so there isn't much time for Riddle to tag along with him, particularly as Dumbledore says he immediately began working at Borgin & Burkes.
True, he started in 1938 but wouldn't that mean he finished studying at Hogwarts in the summer of 1944? 1938, 1939, 1940, 1941, 1942, 1943 and 1944 being his student years?

Dumbledore says that, but maybe evil wizards were always attracted to Borgin&Burkes. Maybe the young apprentice Riddle in the store encountered Grindelwald in the store sometime or during his "procuring interesting items for the store" wanderings.

I know that horcruxes are dark magic, but it's interesting DD in particular is insisting Hogwarts shouldn't teach students on that topic. Did he find out about horcruxes when fighting Grindelwald and is the reason why he was, according to JKR, 150 years old, a horcrux ? Surely, a wizard as smart as DD would know about Dark Arts - so maybe he used them in the past...


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Old April 20th, 2007, 1:11 pm
LMD101  Female.gif LMD101 is offline
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Re: Theory on Fawkes

1) Perhaps there was another prophecy about the Chosen One, but much earlier. This is why DD was so insistant Tom Riddle was to go to Hogwarts that he came to visit him personally; he believed the boy is special.

Dumbledore knew of a child doing magic consciously and using it against others. The MoM can clearly keep track of under-age wizards (CoS) and what Riddle was doing was unlike what other wizards his age were capable of - Harry inadvertently ending up on roofs and such like. Riddle was different, andit was important that he was taught to control his magic. I think Dumbledore simply recognised Tom's potential and the need for him to be taught magic properly. I don't think there was anything 'special' about him other than that.

2) Fawkes delivers the two special wand feathers simultaneously for the two most significant attendants of Hogwarts - the two wizards destined to one day fight each other and decide the fate of the wizard world (like DD and Grindelwald years before). It is also possible he delivered the one feather when Tom Riddle was born and when Harry was born. Which would explain DD's interest in both Riddle and Harry.


All we know about the DD Grindlewald thing was that one defeated the other. There's no suggestion that there was 'destiny' involved. Fawkes could have delivered the feather when both were born, but the Prophecy - the potential connections between LV (not Tom, but the 'Dark Lord') and Harry - didn't come into effect until after it had been spoken by Trelawney and LV had begun to act on it. Had he not acted against one of the children "born as the seventh month dies" the Prophecy would never have been played out. Also, the prophecy refers to 'The Dark Lord', not Tom Riddle. They are, for these intents and purposes, two different entities.

3) Fawkes took an AK when DD fought Grindelwald, and he maybe healed the wound on DD's knee and probably healed Harry's scar after GH. LV was born on Dec 31st 1926 so he would start studying Hogwarts in 1938, and he was out of school in 1944. Enough time to have met Grindelwald who wasn't defeated until 1945. I wonder if the Grindelwald-LV relationship is like DD-Harry? A wiser, older wizard teaching a young protege?

Could be, that is a potential comparison people have drawn between Grindlewald and LV. Though I'd like to know where we are told that Fawkes took an AK when Dumbledore fought Grindlewald, or are you just suggesting it as a possibility? I think that, like the light 'put-outer' thing in SS/PS that Dumbledore's scar was just a little joke. It's the shape of the London Underground, after all! But it is quite possible that Fawkes could have healed the wound which caused it. That said, if he healed Harry in CoS with no lasting mark from a basilisk's fang, then I'm not sure why there would be a scar at all. I have a feeling that Harry's scar healed of its own accord. Don't know why, but I think the 'mark' of the Chosen One wouldn't have been interfered with. Dumbledore did say in SS/PS that nothing could properly heal the scar, and in itself it was only a small cut - though pretty nasty for a little baby, poor Harry.

4) Fawkes is a horcrux. But DD only made one horcrux (and Fawkes "died" during Grindelwald fight. Alternative: Fawkes used up his horcruxiness when LV AKed him in OOTP.)

With how Dumbledore had treated the subject of death, it is unlikely that he would feel the need to create a horcrux. He accepts mortality, and it is one of the major differences between him and LV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by matt5108 View Post
The fourth theory can't be true. I was said it takes true evil to split your soul to create a horcrux why would Dumbledore do that?
Depends on your definition of evil, in this case. In the HP context, granted, simply making a Horcrux is considered evil, but snuka's theory is that Dumbledore used Fawkes. I don't think she's right, but admittedly there is a distinct difference between DD using his phoenix which is reborn, and him killing another human being in order to preserve his own life.



Last edited by LMD101; April 20th, 2007 at 1:18 pm.
  #6  
Old April 20th, 2007, 2:20 pm
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Re: Theory on Fawkes

The Prophecy we know speaks of a Chosen One to defeat Voldemort. If there were an earlier "Chosen One" Prophecy, who was the person supposed to defeat? We know that Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald (but we don't know how and in canon Fawkes has not yet been connected to this) and we're not aware of any other Dark figure at that time. Thus it would seem that if there were such a prophecy at that point, it would be about Dumbledore.

It's clear that Dumbledore considered Tom to be bad news all along.

Why would Albus "Death is the next great adventure" Dumbledore make a Horcrux? If he did, considering that he banned the topic from Hogwarts, he's a huge hypocrite.

If Riddle started school in the fall of 1938, he would have graduated in the spring of 1945 (unless he was held back or advanced). Each academic year is part of two different calendar years.


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  #7  
Old April 20th, 2007, 2:32 pm
LeanneJO  Female.gif LeanneJO is offline
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Re: Theory on Fawkes

Quote:
Originally Posted by snuka View Post
I know that horcruxes are dark magic, but it's interesting DD in particular is insisting Hogwarts shouldn't teach students on that topic. Did he find out about horcruxes when fighting Grindelwald and is the reason why he was, according to JKR, 150 years old, a horcrux ? Surely, a wizard as smart as DD would know about Dark Arts - so maybe he used them in the past...
If Dumbledore already knew about Horcruxes and had made one himself in the past, why then was it so important to get Slughorns memory if he already knew the facts?

I think Dumbledore would have been very interested to hear that Tom had got the wand with the Phoenix feather. I am sure Ollivander would have notified him, as he did with Harry when the wand was purchased.


  #8  
Old April 20th, 2007, 2:50 pm
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Re: Theory on Fawkes

Quote:
Originally Posted by snuka View Post

I know that horcruxes are dark magic, but it's interesting DD in particular is insisting Hogwarts shouldn't teach students on that topic. Did he find out about horcruxes when fighting Grindelwald and is the reason why he was, according to JKR, 150 years old, a horcrux ? Surely, a wizard as smart as DD would know about Dark Arts - so maybe he used them in the past...
Dumbledore is 150 because wizards age slower than muggles. Also, we have seen a lot of really old wizards and witches like Madam Marchbanks and the others who tested the students for the O.W.L.'s. I remember one of them saying they tested Dumbledore when he was at Hogwart's.
I agree that Dumbledore doesn't have a horcrux. Sure, Dumbledore is smart and knows a lot about the Dark Arts, but that doesn't mean he uses them.


  #9  
Old April 20th, 2007, 7:03 pm
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Re: Theory on Fawkes

Quote:
Originally Posted by snuka View Post
True, he started in 1938 but wouldn't that mean he finished studying at Hogwarts in the summer of 1944? 1938, 1939, 1940, 1941, 1942, 1943 and 1944 being his student years?
Riddle's school years:
1st Year 1st September 1938 (aged 11 years 8 months) to June 1939
2nd Year September 1939 to June 1940
3rd Year September 1940 to June 1941
4th Year September 1941 to June 1942
5th Year September 1942 to June 1943
6th Year September 1943 to June 1944
7th Year September 1944 to June 1945

HBP is set between July 1996 and June 1997 and the 'nearly 50-years-old' reference was made in December 1996, so it's reasonable to assume the Potions book wasn't published until 1947 at the earliest.

Quote:
I know that horcruxes are dark magic, but it's interesting DD in particular is insisting Hogwarts shouldn't teach students on that topic. Did he find out about horcruxes when fighting Grindelwald and is the reason why he was, according to JKR, 150 years old, a horcrux ? Surely, a wizard as smart as DD would know about Dark Arts - so maybe he used them in the past...
He was insistent about not teaching the students about Horcruxes before he defeated Grindelwald. Although the subject had been banned by Tom Riddle's time at Hogwarts, there's nothing to say that it wasn't taught during Dumbledore's time at Hogwarts. Per JKR, wizards live longer than Muggles so that's why he was 150 years old.


  #10  
Old April 20th, 2007, 7:20 pm
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Re: Theory on Fawkes

I don't think these will turn out to have been true about Fawkes. These are points that should have come out before now if they were because a couple of them would be large enough to work into the story and would be strange to reveal afterwards.


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  #11  
Old April 20th, 2007, 7:46 pm
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Re: Theory on Fawkes

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeanneJO View Post
If Dumbledore already knew about Horcruxes and had made one himself in the past, why then was it so important to get Slughorns memory if he already knew the facts?
He didn't want the memory for information on Horcruxes. He wanted to see how much Tom Riddle had found out about Horcruxes from Slughorn. I believe he was particularly interested in the number of Horcruxes Tom Riddle desired, from Voldemort's comment about having gone further than any other on the path to immortality.


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Old April 21st, 2007, 8:04 am
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Re: Theory on Fawkes

In one of the books it's said that DD knew more about the dark arts than voldemort, but chose not to use them. I would think that would include the making of a horcrux.


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  #13  
Old April 21st, 2007, 8:10 am
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Re: Theory on Fawkes

If Dumbledore knew then what was the point of getting the memory from Slughorn about horcruxes? Page filler :P


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Old April 21st, 2007, 9:14 am
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Re: Theory on Fawkes

Didn't JKR say we'd learn more about a wizard's relationship with their wand in 7? To me, that's where Fawkes will come into play. I'm excited to find the story behind him giving both Harry and Tom Riddle feathers, and how (I feel) it will come back around to Dumbledore.

Matt5108, the purpose of the memory was to see how many Horcruxes LV wanted to make.

And RavenEye, I agree with your timeframe, but I don't understand why you brought up the potions book?


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Old April 21st, 2007, 10:05 am
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Re: Theory on Fawkes

Quote:
Originally Posted by IchLiebeGeorge View Post
And RavenEye, I agree with your timeframe, but I don't understand why you brought up the potions book?
I'm confusing threads, I think. It was written somewhere else that the Potions book might have belonged to Voldemort before Eileen Prince/Professor Snape.


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Old April 21st, 2007, 3:29 pm
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Re: Theory on Fawkes

In any event, I think that Fawkes is linked to Harry in one way or another. At least in this generation Harry was the favorite student of his owner and one of his tail feathers is inside Harry's wand. I don't know if we've seen the last of him. Fawkes might represent Dumbledore in a way that might prove important later on. When Harry is in the Pensieve in HBP, it says that Dumbledore has auburn hair, which is close to red. Red is the color of a phoenix. Fawkes is probably linked to Voldemort in some way, seeing as one of his tail feathers is in his wand as well. If Fawkes represents Dumbledore, however, we probably won't see him ever again, as Dumbledore has died.

The fact that phoenixes return from the dead might be ominous if JK Rowling hadn't explicitly said that Dumbledore was 100% dead. It just might mean that his memory will never die, or maybe he'll come back as a ghost. Either one would explain Fawkes's apparent representation of DD.


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Old April 21st, 2007, 6:45 pm
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Re: Theory on Fawkes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fostwolf View Post
In one of the books it's said that DD knew more about the dark arts than voldemort, but chose not to use them. I would think that would include the making of a horcrux.
Is this what you were referring to?
PS/SS, Ch 1(Dumbledore)"It all gets so confusing if we keep saying 'You-Know-Who'. I have never seen any reason to be frightened of saying Voldemort's name."

"I know you heven't," said Professor McGonagall. sounding half exasperated, half admiring. "But you're different. Everyone knows you're the only one You-Know-oh, all right, Voldemort, was frightened of."

"You flatter me," said Dumbledore calmly. "Voldemort had powers I will never have."

"Only because you're too ~ well ~ noble to use them."

"It's luck it's dark. I haven't blushed so much since Madam Pomfrey told me she liked my new earmuffs."
Voldemort was frightened of Dumbledore. Voldemort had powers that Dumbledore was too noble to use.

I agree. I don't think Dumbledore would have made a horcrux.

Anyway, if Fawkes was Avada Kedavarad by Grindewald, how could Dumbledore have used Fawkes' death to make a horcrux? It would have been Grindewald who 'killed' Fawkes, not Dumbledore.


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  #18  
Old April 22nd, 2007, 2:10 am
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Re: Theory on Fawkes

You may wish to look at these threads...

Voldemort's Key to Immortality: Fawkes

Fawkes and Snape


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  #19  
Old June 8th, 2007, 6:13 pm
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The Wand Chooses the Wizard

This should be a thread of its own but I've been told to post it here. My apologies to the originator of this thread for interfering with your great ideas.

Rereading PS i had an idea. When Harry gets his wand, Olivander tells him twice that the wand chooses the wizard, and that is repeated later in the series.

We learn from Dumbledore in a later book that Fawkes donated the feather in Voldemort's wand, as well as the feather in the wand that chose Harry. We know that Fawkes is loyal to Gryffindor.

Fawkes the phoenix has been a primary character in the series, written in a brilliantly subtle way by our favorite author. Fawkes healed Harry's wounds obtained from battling Voldemort and brought Harry the sorting hat containing the Gryffindor sword. Even the anti-Voldemort movement is called the Order of the Phoenix, which was never fully explained in the 5th book.

Could it be that Fawkes' loyalty to Harry is because one feather he contributed for wandmaking was put to such terrible use by Voldemort the Slytherin, that Fawkes is assisting Harry in undoing Voldemort with the second feather Fawke's donated, the feather in Harry's wand? And could Harry's scar have anything to do with Fawkes' feather in Voldemort's wand providing protection from a killing curse aimed at a baby?

Just thought I'd see what all of you avid readers thought.



  #20  
Old June 10th, 2007, 8:35 pm
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Re: Theory on Fawkes

I hope I get my thoughts clear enough to post this...I think there are several other threads that parts of this could fit into, so mods and students please tell me if you think it belongs somewhere else.

We all know that in OotP during the battle between DD & LV, Fawkes appears out of nowhere and swallows the AK meant for DD (I believe it was because DD was performing another curse at the time). I don't have a quote at the minute.

In HBP in the Lightening Struck Tower, DD finds himself wandless and facing an inevitable AK, Fawkes does not show up to save DD in this case. Do you think in this case it's because DD and Snape have already worked out the details that Snape perform the AK and DD told Fawkes not to show up?

Different question. We have been told that Fawkes only provided 2 tail feathers for wands. Most birds go through a molting period and lose feathers...so it's very possible that Fawkes would have shed other feathers, if this were the case, why weren't more feathers "donated" for the use of wand making?

OK, one more...when the meeting occurred in DD's office with Marietta during OotP, DD grabs a hold of Fawkes and disappears. Is this considered a form of disapperation (which we all have been told a million times you can't do this inside Hogwarts), or does Fawkes have that ability even when someone is holding onto his tail?

I could go on...but I'll save you and stop here.


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