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Old June 30th, 2006, 7:40 pm
nevillesgal  Female.gif nevillesgal is offline
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Snape in OOTP

In Order of the Phoenix Harry forgets that there is one Order member at Hogwarts he can confide in. Snape and Harry have had their ups and downs, especially in Harry's fifth year because of the disastrous Occlumency lessons. When Umbridge has Harry and the others, caught red handed in her office, Snape comes in and Harry remembers he can give information about DD and the order to Snape. He gives Snape the cryptic message, "He's got Padfoot! He's got padfoot at the place where it's hidden!" Snape pretends not to understand, but does. DD later tells Harry that Snape understood the message and went looking to see if Sirius was safe. After discovering that he was, Snape deduced where Harry and the others had gone and alerted the Order members. This led the Order members to the Ministry, which saved the kids lives.

Now, if Snape was evil, why alert the Order? Why not just let Harry and the others be disposed of there. No one would know he had a chance to save them and didn't. If someone were to find this out, he could feign ignorance about understanding Harry's message. Why send the Order to save Harry and the others if he's a true, loyal DE?

Now, if you believe he's bad, why do you think he sent the Order in to save Harry?


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  #2  
Old June 30th, 2006, 7:48 pm
Gigglepoo  Male.gif Gigglepoo is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

I think Snape is a good guy but, to answer your question:

Look how late the Order showed up. Snape could have assumed that the DEs would have been able to handle Potter and his friends and leave with the prophecy before they had a chance to fight. It was an interminably long period between when the kids first arrive and when the Order busts into the Veil room. DEs should have been able to finish them off if they were so incompatent.

Snape says he didn't go so he could remain a spy for LV, but you know if he showed up he would have had no trouble dealing with a bunch of fifth years.


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Old June 30th, 2006, 7:49 pm
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Re: Snape in OOTP

It's so hard to know for sure Snape's motives. There are times when it seems he is indeed working for the good side. There are also times when he seems to be working against the good side. I don't believe Jo wants us to know for sure until the times comes for us to know.


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Old June 30th, 2006, 7:55 pm
mugglebeki  Female.gif mugglebeki is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Hmmm, I just finished reading OoP for the nth time, and in the situation you describe Snape definitely seems loyal to Dumbledore. Another thing is that in that same situation Harry realized that there was someone from the Order in with him at that precise moment. Under other circumstances, Harry would have doubted to tell Snape the real reasons for him to be using Umbridge's fireplace, but Dumbledore had been sacked and McG was in St. Mungo's, so he had nobody to confide in. It's as if that little voice inside his brain reminds him that he is not alone, and it opens up his eyes to Snape.
Even though I'm still not too sure of Snape, this inclines the balance in his favor.


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Old June 30th, 2006, 8:03 pm
nevillesgal  Female.gif nevillesgal is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

[quote=mugglebeki] It's as if that little voice inside his brain reminds him that he is not alone, and it opens up his eyes to Snape.[quote]

Exactly! He forgot about Snape, but took this moment to trust him. A crucial moment to trust him.


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Old June 30th, 2006, 8:47 pm
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Quote:
Originally Posted by nevillesgal
Now, if you believe he's bad, why do you think he sent the Order in to save Harry?
If Snape is looking out for his own ends (downfall of Voldemort so Snape could become leader), then Snape wouldn't want Voldemort to have the Prophecy, because something about the end of it is important. Otherwise Dumbledore wouldn't be trying to keep Voldemort from hearing the rest of the prophecy. But alerting the order also enables Snape to goad Sirius into risking his life to save Harry. Have a long time enemy be killed and keep Voldemort from finding out the rest of the prophecy. Alerting the Order seems like the perfect course of action if your are pitting both sides against each other.


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Old June 30th, 2006, 9:04 pm
Emma_Elfeirr  Undisclosed.gif Emma_Elfeirr is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

I think that if Snape were on the Dark Side, he would have done that in hopes to get members of the Order injured or even killed.

If he were the real antagonist, as someone once suggested, meaning he was just controlling both sides like pawns, he could have used it as a chance to possibly weaken both sides, helping to clear his path to 'supreme power' **

I, however, believe Snape to be on the good side, not only because of this, but because of everything.

**EDIT: Sorry, Fuelpagan, I just noticed you posted pretty much the same thing already


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Old June 30th, 2006, 9:59 pm
nevillesgal  Female.gif nevillesgal is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

I just wanted to say real fast that in my original post when I said, "If you think Snape is bad, why would he alert the order?" I wasn't being smart. I just wanted to hear both sides. Thanks!


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Old June 30th, 2006, 10:06 pm
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

There's nothing in canon to indicate that anyone thought Snape took too long to alert the Order. He got in touch with 12G right away and discovered that Sirius was there rather than being tortured at the Ministry. So as far as he knew, there was no emergency; he probably assumed Harry had been messing with him by telling him Padfoot was in trouble.

When he realized that Harry was not in the castle--and I don't know how he realized that (Dumbledore and McGonnagal were both gone, so there wasn't much of a chain of command at that point; did some Gryffindors get worried enough to tell Snape Harry was missing?)--he then contacted 12G again and told them Harry might have gone to the MoM, which in fact he had. They went to the rescue.

Neither Dumbledore nor Lupin nor anyone else involved in these events had any question about how Snape handled it except Harry, and he didn't question the timing at all.


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Last edited by Shewoman; July 1st, 2006 at 2:35 am.
  #10  
Old June 30th, 2006, 10:09 pm
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Snape is evil; he killed Dumbledore. As for telling the Order about Sirius at the Ministry, Snape couldn't afford to take the chance of not telling the Order. If Harry or any of the other kids survived and told Dumbledore, Snape would have been toast. Snape had to convince Dumbledore he was on his side until the moment he zapped him.


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Old June 30th, 2006, 11:10 pm
LadyKnight LadyKnight is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazy_ned
Snape is evil; he killed Dumbledore. As for telling the Order about Sirius at the Ministry, Snape couldn't afford to take the chance of not telling the Order. If Harry or any of the other kids survived and told Dumbledore, Snape would have been toast. Snape had to convince Dumbledore he was on his side until the moment he zapped him.
But if Snape were evil, he'd have had a built-in excuse. How was he suppose to know who Padfoot was? He could claim he'd just thought Harry had been raving and it was best to not act for fear of encouraging Harry's mental attachment to Voldermort.

I agree that Snape alerting the order is a major point in his favor, and it makes me near giddy just to think about it.


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Old June 30th, 2006, 11:18 pm
crazy_ned  Male.gif crazy_ned is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Snape killing Dumbledore is the simple proof that he's evil, and I believe JKR's point in having him doing that was to reveal to the readers just how evil Snape truly is.

Snape must have known who Padfoot was, otherwise he couldn't have understood Harry's message. And if Snape knew, Dumbledore probably knew he knew.


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Old June 30th, 2006, 11:19 pm
Uriel  Female.gif Uriel is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Nice defense. I don't believe Snape is a loyal DE. I shall save that for the final book. He may have been putting on an act for the Order, but DD has always trusted him without question. And every time Harry did before it was unfounded. As for DD's demise... I still say he had it planned all along and we shall find out in 7.


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Old July 1st, 2006, 12:05 am
PrettySiren  Female.gif PrettySiren is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Quote:
Originally Posted by nevillesgal
Now, if Snape was evil, why alert the Order? Why not just let Harry and the others be disposed of there. No one would know he had a chance to save them and didn't. If someone were to find this out, he could feign ignorance about understanding Harry's message. Why send the Order to save Harry and the others if he's a true, loyal DE?
If Snape was evil, he wouldn't have alerted the Order. JKR is very clever; this, in my opinion, was just another clue about his true nature.


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Old July 1st, 2006, 12:30 am
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Re: Snape in OOTP

I'm still unsure as to where Snape's loyalty lies. I want to believe he is good and bad at the same time. Part of me wants him to be good, but the other parts wants him to be bad.

This moment that you described makes me believe that he is good. Like you said, if he really was working for Lord Voldemort WHY inform the Order?

But yet at the same time, I often wondered if he was trying to open Harry's mind up more in Occlumency lessons.

It's like everytime I think he is on Dumbledore's side, something else happens to make me think he is on Voldemort's side.


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Old July 1st, 2006, 12:43 am
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Well, you have to see the time-frame. Snape waited a while to tell the Order and DD about the kids' whereabouts. He didn't alert the Order right away. Harry and the others had been in there for quite some time before any of the Order members actually showed up. That could have been a result of all lines of communication having been watched by the Ministry as Umbridge explained, but as DD said, the Order has a much more accurate and efficient way to alert its members. He could have told them within minutes of knowing that Harry and the others left. Now, obviously, I don't know the exact time, but it seemed like Snape waited too long to let them know. That could show that he's evil.

Then again, he did alert the Order and this seemed trustworthy to DD. However, the way Snape is portrayed, he is shown to have some fondness or attachment for Voldy when he refers to him as the Dark Lord and not as the others refer to him during the Occlumency lessons.

Personally, I believe Snape is not good, but that there is something more to him than meets the eye.


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  #17  
Old July 1st, 2006, 2:23 am
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uriel
I don't believe Snape is a loyal DE. I shall save that for the final book. He may have been putting on an act for the Order, but DD has always trusted him without question. And every time Harry did before it was unfounded. As for DD's demise... I still say he had it planned all along and we shall find out in 7.
I agree that Snape is "good". The plot twist at the end of HBP certainly made things interesting, but I believe in the final book, Snape will be cleared and all questions will be answered.

The thing that has intrigued me more than anything since Philosopher's Stone is how Dumbledore trusts Snape. At first, you assume Dumbledore simply trusts the word of a member of his staff over a first year student like Harry, but later in the book you see that many accomplished wizards do not completely trust him, and are basing their trust on Dumbledore's word. I want to know what Snape has done to deserve this everlasting trust from Dumbledore, and its just a hunch, but I think Dumbledore is right in trusting Snape this time - I think he is working for the good.


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Old July 1st, 2006, 2:42 am
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Snape did contact 12G twice--once after Harry spoke to him and then when he realized Harry was gone and thought he might be at the MoM. We don't know how Snape came to know Harry was missing. Harry's not in his House (and McGonnagal was in St. Mungo's). And I'd think a lot of time would have to pass before the Gryffindors would consider consulting Snape about Harry and the others not being in the castle. I don't know that they're the ones who alerted him, but (since the chain of command was broken by the absences), I'd say it was an appreciable period of time before anyone did.

It is possible that Snape was looking for Harry himself in the belief that Harry was messing with him by telling him Padfoot was in trouble when, as Snape quickly found out, he was safe at home. He's want to say something snarky about that. That might be how he realized Harry wasn't in the castle . . . but it would take awhile, I'd think, to determine that he was nowhere on campus.


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Old July 1st, 2006, 2:55 am
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Dumbledore has been known to only see the good in everybody, which causes him to trust people when others wouldn't give them a second look. The way that Snape handles the situation with Sirius and the Department of Mysteries is very ambiguous. If Snape is on Dumbledore's side then the reason he notified the Order that Harry and his friends had taken off was becasue he didn't want the Death Eaters to kill them.

If Snape is evil then the reason he sent the Order to the DOM is because he was probably hoping that they would get injured or killed by the Death Eaters. That also accounts for the big gap between the time the students arrived and when the Order arrived. He was trying to give the Death Eaters time to finish off the students.


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Old July 1st, 2006, 3:18 am
nevillesgal  Female.gif nevillesgal is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shewoman
Snape did contact 12G twice--once after Harry spoke to him and then when he realized Harry was gone and thought he might be at the MoM. We don't know how Snape came to know Harry was missing. Harry's not in his House (and McGonnagal was in St. Mungo's). And I'd think a lot of time would have to pass before the Gryffindors would consider consulting Snape about Harry and the others not being in the castle. I don't know that they're the ones who alerted him, but (since the chain of command was broken by the absences), I'd say it was an appreciable period of time before anyone did.
Good point about him contacting 12G twice.

I always assumed that Snape discovered Harry and the others being gone by returning to Umbridge's office only to find his Slytherin's beaten up and the others gone. I would assume one of them told him where they had gone, that Harry and Hermione had taken Umbridge to the Forest and the others had gone to find them. I can see Malfoy telling him all the details he knew once Snape returned to try and get Harry and party in more trouble. Well, once Snape came along and sorted out all the hexes and bodily injuries of the Inquisitional Squad.

This is, of course, just my theory of how Snape knew he was missing. Snape always describes Harry as wanting attention (good or bad, I think this is truely how Snape sees him) so he would be able to deduce where Harry had gone, knowing him to "want attention." He would know Harry well enough by then to know he wouldn't sit back and wait around.


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