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  #41  
Old March 12th, 2007, 9:26 pm
EBJ23  Female.gif EBJ23 is offline
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Re: Snape's Education

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Originally Posted by Fostwolf View Post
Most young children who experiment don't know when they are doing something that's wrong until it is explained to them that it is wrong and why. If Snape was a neglected child he may have learned many dark things without knowing they were at the time.
Yes that was probably what happened to Snape. He could have just started to read books on the Dark Arts and practiced it without knowing that it was wrong.


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  #42  
Old March 13th, 2007, 3:44 am
hwyla  Female.gif hwyla is offline
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Re: Snape's Education

I still think the Marauders were actually wrong about Snape being 'dark'. I mean - it isn't as if they really knew him well and let's face it - Sirius has been wrong a lot.

It just isn't logical for Voldy to send Snape off to try to get a job at Hogwarts IF Snape really WAS well-known as a 'dark arts oddball'.

Voldy knew full well that Albus saw thru HIM when HE applied for a position at Hogwarts. And youngTom had a pretty 'good' reputation at the school - had everyone except Albus fooled. Voldy's opinion would be that Albus was pretty shrewd at recognizing 'darkness'.

So WHY would he send ANYone who Albus might believe had any whiff of 'dark' about them? We even hear Albus TWICE refer to Snape as returning or rejoining the 'good' side. ALBUS believed Snape was 'good' - at least until Snape was caught eavesdropping.

Maybe he even continued to believe it THEN - since he let Snape leave the HogsHead without obliviating him - despite knowing half of the prophecy.

Personally, I don't think Albus found out Snape had joined the DEs until Snape came to him in remorse to confess that he had endangered the Potters by telling Voldy what he had heard. And I'm betting Albus was quite shocked.

So - I think Sirius was flat out wrong. He has been wrong often enough in the series that I question the validity of almost everything he has said.


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When Dumbledore asked Snape, "If you are prepared..." he didn't mean 'Have your Death Eeater robes returned from the cleaners'.
Everything we've seen Snape do, was done knowing Voldemort WOULD return someday.

And when that day would come, that he had better have the appropriate memories that would enable him to lie to Voldy's face.
  #43  
Old March 13th, 2007, 4:11 am
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Re: Snape's Education

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Originally Posted by IronLady View Post
Simply because Harry is already seen as a powerful wizard (who's not there yet) and Severus had no trouble showing him a few tricks at the escape scene. It's not in his best interest though if he's seen as brilliant or powerful, it would work in his disadvantage to Voldemort (taking he's a spy).Even Sirius states he's more intelligent than appropreate when he was at school comparing to his classmates. I think he's a bit of a genius. A misguided one. No doubt about that. Because Snape, no matter what you think of him, never fails to surprise.
I agree that Snape may be a genius level wizard. He is comparable to Voldemort and Dumbledore. He has a nasty personality and enjoys tormenting his students but this doesn't change the fact that he knows what he is doing.

I also agree that if all the books at SE were in his family all along they may well have been a source of information for a boy who just didn't fit in. If he didn't fit in at Hogwarts, I figure he fit in even less in the public school system for the first few years of school.

I don't have a handle on his mother though. She was head of the globstone club. We don't know if she was into the Dark Arts or even if she was a good student. She was abused by her husband and as a witch she could have stopped this treatment if she had wanted too. We don't know why she put up with it.


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  #44  
Old March 13th, 2007, 5:05 am
hwyla  Female.gif hwyla is offline
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Re: Snape's Education

Well - I think Tonks and Merope show why Eileen put up with it. I thinbk she was so depressed her magic was gone.

But I think all those books in SpinnersEnd are Snape's OWN purchases. That one glimpse in Snape's mind at family life (the boy crying in the corner) mentioned nothing about a room of wall-to-wall books. And considering the description of SpinnersEnd - where even the DOORS are covered with a bookcase - so much so that the walls seem 'padded' - well it just sounds like something so unusual that even Harry would have noticed.


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When Dumbledore asked Snape, "If you are prepared..." he didn't mean 'Have your Death Eeater robes returned from the cleaners'.
Everything we've seen Snape do, was done knowing Voldemort WOULD return someday.

And when that day would come, that he had better have the appropriate memories that would enable him to lie to Voldy's face.
  #45  
Old March 13th, 2007, 5:25 am
Leslie33  Female.gif Leslie33 is offline
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Re: Snape's Education

Quote:
I portray Snape as a person that's been emotionally damaged by the relationship his parents had with each other and with him, that associated to the way he was treated as a child at school left him uncapable of having a healthy relationship with anyone that doesn't live in a book.
But he is still a good guy, I trust him entirely and he will prove himself in the end, he can't fool me
Those are my thoughts exactly.

Where did Snape learn Dark Magic at such an early age?
Those of us who have been Bullied know the desire to get back at our Tormentors. We dream of getting the upper hand to show them how it feels to be on the receiving end. Though, thanfully most of us don't follow through on the action.
From the scene in Occlumency Snape got Bullied at home as well. Even if Tobias NEVER laid a hand on him in anger, he still Bullied Severus by abusing his Mother.
Being physically small and weak, Snape knew he was no match for his Father and couldn't help his Mother as far as defending her.
He probably turned within himself. I suspect he may have come across Eileen's Potion book and saw some notes in it. Remember, some of the hand writing was described as looking "feminine". So I'd say it was maybe hers. He saw this, became intrigued and tried it.
I see him teaching himself as a way to escape the hell of hearing his Parents fighting. He also probably taught himself to get 'vengeance" on those who Bullied him. He knows that physically he isn't a match to anyone, but intellectually he's superior to them. Also if he "Knows" Dark Arts--and I suspect he did, he'd be left alone. I mean who would want to mess with a kid who's into Dark Arts. Well James Potter did, but he always did with the safety of "The Marauders". That point aside, probably very few kids even stepped within an arm's reach of him for fear of what he'd do.
For Snape, he'd much rather be feared and left alone than ridiculed.


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  #46  
Old March 13th, 2007, 9:13 am
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Re: Snape's Education

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Originally Posted by attica View Post
I don't know. Eileen Prince was also a half blood, so it's doubtful that she would be an early recruit of LV's, he seemed to want to dissociated himself from all that and make out he was pureblooded etc.
I hope I won't be in terrible trouble for bringing this up after so much time has passed, but I don't think we know Eileen's blood status. Why do you think she's a half-blood?


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  #47  
Old March 13th, 2007, 11:26 am
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Re: Snape's Education

IF we take Sirius' words about Snape being immersed in the Dark Arts upon coming to the school as true (and that's debatable, since we've never heard Snape's side of the story), then I would suppose he learnt them as home, form his maternal relatives. We don't know where the Snapes lived, if Tobias Snape wasn't very wealthy and couldn't support his family (which is likely, seeing how he treated them), then perhaps they lived in the Princes' house. This would be another reason for Tobias Snape to act as he did in the memory - being an only Muggle among a house of wizards must be pretty hard on the nerves. Even if they lived separately, Severus must have visited his relatives form time to gime. It's also possible that his parents divorced when he was very young - and not very hard to imagine, given that Tobias abused his wife apparently quite early in their marriage (Snape was still a boy), and Eileen and his son went to live with their relatives or on their own.

I think his Muggle's father abuse over his mother, whom Severus presumable loved and wanted to protect, as happens with all boys, was a strong motivation for him to go into the depths of curses and jinxes. I can imagine him deserately wanting to become strong enough to svae himself and his mother form the nightmare of daily abuse. And as we know Snape is neither stupid, nor meek, I can very easily see him determined to learn all about magical ways to get rid of his abusive father and save his mother and himself.


  #48  
Old March 13th, 2007, 11:45 am
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Re: Snape's Education

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Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
IF we take Sirius' words about Snape being immersed in the Dark Arts upon coming to the school as true (and that's debatable, since we've never heard Snape's side of the story), then I would suppose he learnt them as home, form his maternal relatives. We don't know where the Snapes lived, if Tobias Snape wasn't very wealthy and couldn't support his family (which is likely, seeing how he treated them), then perhaps they lived in the Princes' house. This would be another reason for Tobias Snape to act as he did in the memory - being an only Muggle among a house of wizards must be pretty hard on the nerves. Even if they lived separately, Severus must have visited his relatives form time to gime. It's also possible that his parents divorced when he was very young - and not very hard to imagine, given that Tobias abused his wife apparently quite early in their marriage (Snape was still a boy), and Eileen and his son went to live with their relatives or on their own.

I think his Muggle's father abuse over his mother, whom Severus presumable loved and wanted to protect, as happens with all boys, was a strong motivation for him to go into the depths of curses and jinxes. I can imagine him deserately wanting to become strong enough to svae himself and his mother form the nightmare of daily abuse. And as we know Snape is neither stupid, nor meek, I can very easily see him determined to learn all about magical ways to get rid of his abusive father and save his mother and himself.
The only problem with hat is that absent contradiction, th dark arts propensity is canon, as is his visible love for it in his first DADA lesson. However, parental abuse and a desire to learn Dark Arts as self defense is all speculation with no support, from what I see.

I think it's likely that his mother taught him early. Many wizards are home schooled in the years prior to Hogwarts. We don't know that she wasn't just as much a supporter of Voldemort as Ma Black. Heck, if we're going to totally speculate, maybe Tobias was yelling at her for teaching Severus dark magic. Maybe his father disagreed with her beliefs and wanted his son to do better, and Severus dissociated from him because of this.


  #49  
Old March 13th, 2007, 12:02 pm
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Re: Snape's Education

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Originally Posted by Hinoema View Post
The only problem with hat is that absent contradiction, th dark arts propensity is canon, as is his visible love for it in his first DADA lesson. However, parental abuse and a desire to learn Dark Arts as self defense is all speculation with no support, from what I see.
Sirius' opinion is canon only for him having that opinion. After the first DADA lesson Hermione comapres Snape to Harry, and we know Harry's not in the least obsessed with the Dark Arts. Being knowlegeable about them doesn't mean he was obsessed. And after all, I never denied he was knowledgeable, I just tried to express my view on how he may have become such.

And I wasn't aware we couldn't post our speculations here. I thought the thread was open to all opinions, and I made an effort to suppost mine with bits of canon (Snape's memory of the abuse).

Quote:
We don't know that she wasn't just as much a supporter of Voldemort as Ma Black.
And is this not a specualtion as well?

Quote:
Heck, if we're going to totally speculate, maybe Tobias was yelling at her for teaching Severus dark magic. Maybe his father disagreed with her beliefs and wanted his son to do better, and Severus dissociated from him because of this.
I'm sorry, but this specualtion is really not supported by anything. I suggested that he may have anted to escpae his father's abuse by using the only thing he had that his father was helpless against - magic, coming from the memory where we see he's cowering while his father is abusing his mother in his presence. I don't see it as such a big stretch to suppose he decided to do something to end that. And fron there it's natural to suppose he turned to his only strenth - being magical while his father was a Muggle. While suggesting that his mother was a supporter of Voldemort and his father was yelling at her for teaching their son dark magic is supported by what?


  #50  
Old March 13th, 2007, 12:20 pm
Hinoema  Female.gif Hinoema is offline
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Re: Snape's Education

Speculation is fine- I did it myself. I don't see support for either, really. (Though I find it hard to believe a muggle man could abuse a witch without getting hexed into his next life.)

I do believe, on topic, that Snape's mother home schooled him before his coming to Hogwarts.


  #51  
Old March 13th, 2007, 1:04 pm
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Re: Snape's Education

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Originally Posted by Hinoema View Post
Speculation is fine- I did it myself. I don't see support for either, really. (Though I find it hard to believe a muggle man could abuse a witch without getting hexed into his next life.)
.
I'm not so sure about that. It's a fine idea, and I like it, but the problem that strikes me about that is the assumption that the woman merely having the ability to fight back would be enough to cause her to do so. Snape's mother could have become so depressed with the situation that she hadn't - even with her magic - the will to fight back against her husband. Even if she had the upper hand in power, it takes more then that take to fight back against someone who's poss. mentally or physically abusing you. Just because she had the ability doesn't mean she had the inclination or desire to use it.

Anyway, to get on topic, and speculate myself, I think that it is easy to become led by Sirius's dismissal of Snape in GoF, along with Snape's obvious penchant and ability at DADA type things. Claiming the man knew 'more curses then the seventh years' sounds very impressive, but Sirius also equates Snape's interest in the Dark Arts with curses, and pretty much extends that to Snape being 'dark' himself. I think it's a misleading mistake, because as has already been said, curses and hexes are not Dark in or of themselves. It has how they are used that makes them so.

I think Snape could have learnt some magic prior to going to Hogwarts, from books or his maternal family, and that would explain why he apparently knew so much. Seeing as we don't know if his mother had any 'Dark' leanings, let's say his choice of magic from books - or the choices made by those who taught him - had a great bearing on what he what he knew when he got to Hogwarts. If he had imersed himself (or had been imersed) in curses and so-forth it would have naturally looked to other young students that this odd, not very sociable boy was into 'dark magic'.

I don't agree with the idea that the young Snape specifically taught himself 'dark magic', just because I think that 'dark' is almost entirely (barring the Unforgivables) a matter of perspective. If he learned to defend himself curses that Hogwarts kids would see as 'dark', then he could have gotton a bad reputation from day one. Which, considering what could have led to him learning such magic, isn't exactly fair on the guy.


  #52  
Old March 13th, 2007, 1:49 pm
hwyla  Female.gif hwyla is offline
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Re: Snape's Education

Just the very fact that Sirius claims Snape knew more curses than HALF of the 7th years proves that Sirius is either exaggerating or that these curses were NOT dark. HALF of the 7th years implies many more students than just the Slytherins.

So, were all of the Slytherins and a third of EACH of the other houses (or perhaps an entire other house?) in that year were apparently 'dark'? Does that make sense? Especially since VoldyWar1 hasn't even begun? (or is in the very first year of it?)

Sirius in GoF is speaking from an adult perspective - one which believes Snape 'probably' was a DE. But IN the pensieve we see NO evidence that 5th year Sirius or James actually believed Snape was 'dark' IN 5th year.

1: They specifically tease Snape about his DADA test with NO mention about his love of the 'dark' - only a greasy nose

2: Lily specifically asks for a reason as to why they are picking on Snape. This clue is twofold. 1) she needs to ASK WHY they don't like Snape - he is obviously NOT yet 'KNOWN' for the dark arts and 2) James and Sirius have the chance to specifically SAY they treat Snape the way they do because he's 'dark' (since apparently Lily has no idea of it) and they do not mention it.




Personally, I do not believe we have any evidence that Eileen (or her parents) were 'dark'.

1: Eileen is known for 'gobstones' - in particular as part of a Hogwarts-wide club. Associating with ALL houses. Note that our only other mention of Gobstones is an international club - gobstones are therefore associated with the acceptance of others who are 'different' from us.

2: There's a notice in the Daily Prophet of Eileen's marriage to a MUGGLE. Either Eileen is especially 'proud' of marrying a muggle and wants to rub it in her parents' faces (if they were 'dark') - or her parents are the one who posted the notice and don't have any problem with the idea that their daughter married a muggle. We do not know which, but it certainly doesn't appear as if EILEEN is in the least bit 'dark' or 'purebloodist'

3: Eileen (if that is her in the memory and I assume it is since Harry doesn't mention that she doesn't look at all like he thought based on Snape's memory) cowers during a fight with Tobias. We have TWO cases of depressed witches losing their powers based on unsuccessful 'romantic' choices. Now Tonks' lack of power hasn't played out as important to the plot and it has now returned. Merope's is important because it explains why Voldy was orphaned, but it would have worked just as well 'plot-wise' if she had just abandoned Voldy because his father rejected her.

So - so far the 'losing powers' has not been necessary to the 'plot'. I will be SHOCKED if it turns out Eileen had enough 'magic' to teach Snape anything magical before Hogwarts.

All we have is working backwards - assuming they were 'dark' because Snape had to learn it somewhere - when we really have no canon that Snape WAS dark as a student - only that Sirius THINKS he was. The same guy that assumes Krum is 'dark' because he went to Durmstrang (yet who would have suggested using the exact same 'curse' on the dragon in the first task that Krum actually used). The same guy who once believed Remus was Voldy's spy and so suggested using Peter as SK. The same guy who believes his brother Regulus was a 'coward' for wanting to back out of the DEs (which seems highly incorrect if it turns out Regulus was RAB). The same guy who is heavily disappointed to realize Harry is not as much of a risk-taker as James was.

I just do not see Sirius as being very good at guessing what other people are actually like. He's wrong about them much too often.


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When Dumbledore asked Snape, "If you are prepared..." he didn't mean 'Have your Death Eeater robes returned from the cleaners'.
Everything we've seen Snape do, was done knowing Voldemort WOULD return someday.

And when that day would come, that he had better have the appropriate memories that would enable him to lie to Voldy's face.

Last edited by hwyla; March 13th, 2007 at 1:57 pm.
  #53  
Old March 13th, 2007, 1:53 pm
Evil_Voldemort  Undisclosed.gif Evil_Voldemort is offline
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Re: Snape's Education

Hi. He probably found a book and experimented and read the book on his own in his free-time.


  #54  
Old March 15th, 2007, 2:55 am
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Re: Snape's Education

Quote:
Where did Snape learn Dark Magic at such an early age?

In his first year at Hogwarts someone said (I can't remember who) that Snape knew more hexes and jinxes than most 7th years.
I think Snape learned of some Dark Magic from his mother, but is ultimately self taught. as for knowing more hexes and jinxes than most seven years upon entering Hogwarts, I think Sirius was exaggerating. It's was just used to say that from the start Snape was knowledgeable of the Darker side of magic.


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  #55  
Old March 16th, 2007, 1:54 pm
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Re: Snape's Education

Clainimg that snape knew more hexes and jinxes thatn most of the seventh years isnt really a valid argument. I'm sure he was creative (i.e. Potions book) but it doesnt seem like he would be an evil person from birth.

I remember During Occlumency lessons when snape's defenses broke down and harry was able to see some of his memories and thoughts.

The one sticking out to me the most was snape sitting in a room while his parents argued.

More than likely, he grew up in a hous that was not exactly "stable",
and there may have been negative attitude there.

His mother: I dont know very much about gobstones, but i doubt the captain of the Gobstones club is the type of person who learns dark magic.

father: he is a muggle. we dont know much else.
Tobias Snape--he would be great to write an article on, but we have little to no information on him......
however, he seems like he wasnt the best father in the world.


would this make snape feel depressed, and help his quest for power (using dark magic).

and in his worst memory, James and Sirius were using the same type of spells as he was.


  #56  
Old March 16th, 2007, 2:08 pm
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Re: Snape's Education

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Originally Posted by no_name_man View Post
I remember During Occlumency lessons when snape's defenses broke down and harry was able to see some of his memories and thoughts.

The one sticking out to me the most was snape sitting in a room while his parents argued.
That was actually two memoeries. He cowered in a corner during the argument, and was laughed at while on a bucking broom.

Quote:
...and in his worst memory, James and Sirius were using the same type of spells as he was.
No, they were different. Snape sued Sectumsempra- they did not.


  #57  
Old March 16th, 2007, 2:47 pm
no_name_man  Male.gif no_name_man is offline
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Re: Snape's Education

i didnt mean the exact same spells, but they were all using spells recorded in the HBP potions book.

although i will admit, snapes was a fair bit darker.

Here is another puzzling aspect of snapes education.
If the spells in his old potions book were invented by him, where did he learn to create spells?
if so how did he do it, and how did he fiure out the countercurses?
most of the spells in the books are based in latin, but other than the school motto, i dont remember ever seeing any references to the language being spoken or read in the wizarding world.

have y'all seen any?


  #58  
Old March 16th, 2007, 3:08 pm
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Re: Snape's Education

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Originally Posted by no_name_man View Post
....Here is another puzzling aspect of snapes education.
If the spells in his old potions book were invented by him, where did he learn to create spells?
if so how did he do it, and how did he fiure out the countercurses?
most of the spells in the books are based in latin, but other than the school motto, i dont remember ever seeing any references to the language being spoken or read in the wizarding world.
I think one of the things that Americans (or just non-brits) might miss out on in these books is an understanding of the British boarding school. I'm not fully aware of the implications (not being british) however having read quite a few stories involving british boarding schools I recognize that a thorough grounding in the 'classics' is much more important to them than it is to us (at least to Americans) That often includes studying latin.

Now how that translates to the british school system outside of the boarding schools - I'm unsure. But I would assume that to ensure that everyone gets a similar education (since the entire country participates in the same tests) then the day schools must also offer a 'classics' education. Perhaps someone from the UK could enlighten us?

My point would be that it is probably much more likely for a british child to already know some latin at 11 than it is for an american child. Add in that Snape appears to have been a very intelligent child and it makes it even more likely - altho' I doubt he had the benefit of boarding school before Hogwarts if his aging underwear were any kind of hint to the money situation at home.


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When Dumbledore asked Snape, "If you are prepared..." he didn't mean 'Have your Death Eeater robes returned from the cleaners'.
Everything we've seen Snape do, was done knowing Voldemort WOULD return someday.

And when that day would come, that he had better have the appropriate memories that would enable him to lie to Voldy's face.
  #59  
Old March 16th, 2007, 3:12 pm
no_name_man  Male.gif no_name_man is offline
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Re: Snape's Education

good point.
I go to a christian school down south ( tennesee, which isnt really that far south) and i didnt start taking Latin until 8th grade.

However, that still leaves us with the problem of figuring out how he created spells.
would he just select what he wanted from the spell, find the matching translation, and say the words??
there must be more to it than that or else everyone could crete spells at will.

if we could just create spells at will, we could just know vocabulary think of what we want, and bam we got it!



Last edited by no_name_man; March 16th, 2007 at 6:41 pm.
  #60  
Old March 17th, 2007, 2:55 am
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Re: Snape's Education

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Originally Posted by no_name_man View Post
good point.
However, that still leaves us with the problem of figuring out how he created spells.
would he just select what he wanted from the spell, find the matching translation, and say the words??
there must be more to it than that or else everyone could crete spells at will.

if we could just create spells at will, we could just know vocabulary think of what we want, and bam we got it!
I wanted to add to my earlier post about Snape possibly knowing latin pre-Hogwarts. Just some thoughts I had today.

I was thinking that it seems even more likely that SOME kids may start latin pre-Hogwarts, but that some don't. I'm thinking of the example of Hermione - who was able to do spells before going to school.

Now, we've been told that it's incredibly important to pronounce everything correctly - if not then you might just end up with a spell gone wrong (I think the example given landed a buffalo on someone's chest?). We also had the example of Ron in first year, who couldn't get his feather to fly because he was mispronouncing it.

So, since Hermione was able to cast all the spells she had tried (I think her words were - paraphrased - 'I've only tried a few spells, but they've all worked') - SHE must have known latin already as it isn't exactly intutive to correctly pronounce latin when your native language is not latin-based. Also, we don't hear Harry complaining about having to memorize words that he has never heard before.

Note however that Ron doesn't know latin well enough to pronounce latin correctly without being told how. Ron however was home-schooled. So, I'm 'guessing' that latin is introduced to kids in the UK before they are 11 or so (altho' I would dearly love for someone from the UK to confirm or naysay this)

Now, Snape is comfortable living in a muggle neighborhood as an adult. So, I'm guessing he was raised in a muggle neighborhood (as opposed to the country like the Weasleys. Spinners End MAY even have been his childhood home (unconfirmed). But IF Snape grew up 'in town' he likely had to go to muggle school. Unlike Sirius, he probably didn't live in an unplottable home, so the neighbors would have known a kid lived in his house.

Anyways, the more I thought about it the more I figured that he learned latin at muggle school.

However, I also thought about the idea that while I don't think Eileen was up to teaching magic to her son (because I don't think she could still DO magic) she might have been able to teach him correct pronounciation?

No idea tho' who might have taught Snape HOW to invent and revise spells. We know it's not as simple as just saying the correct latin for what you want. Snape went thru lots of corrections for each of his spells (exception was Sectumsempra - which I think shows he didn't invent it - one time Harry was right)


__________________
When Dumbledore asked Snape, "If you are prepared..." he didn't mean 'Have your Death Eeater robes returned from the cleaners'.
Everything we've seen Snape do, was done knowing Voldemort WOULD return someday.

And when that day would come, that he had better have the appropriate memories that would enable him to lie to Voldy's face.
 
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