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Could Snape be abusing Felix Felicis?



 
 
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Old August 15th, 2006, 7:28 pm
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Could Snape be abusing Felix Felicis?

Normally I quote the book, but I don't have it with me at the moment so for now I will use the Lexicon.
LexiconUntil the effects wear off, all the drinker's endeavors will tend to succeed (HBP9). Once consumed, the potion gives the drinker an exhilarating sense of confidence and a tremendous sense of opportunity (HBP22). However, if taken in excess the potion causes giddiness, recklessness, and dangerous overconfidence, and it is highly toxic in large quantities (HBP9).

I believe that Severus Snape was using good Ole Felix in two places in HBP. In "Snape Victorious" and in the combination of "The Lightning-Struck Tower" and "Flight of the Prince."

In "Snape Victorious" Harry seemed to know that Snape wanted to speak to him for a reason. He associated it with Snape wanting to embarrass Harry. But it sure seams a silly reason for an adult when there is plenty of school year left. However, the circumstances surrounding the whole situation look suspicious.
- Tonks just saved Harry from traveling all the way back to London just in time.
- Tonks is to only one we see whose Patronus has changed form.
- She sent a message to Hagrid that he barely missed because he was a tad late.
- Snape just happened to be in the right spot to take the message and came to collect Harry.

Seems awful "lucky" that Snape and not Hagrid got the message. Just as Harry was lucky to run into Slughorn on the way to Hagrid's. Could Snape have wanted Harry to know about patronuses changing for a reason?

Then on the tower scene. Snape had no trouble getting around Hermione with her lucky potion and past both the Order and the Death Eaters. He gave Harry much more trouble than Harry had against Voldemort or the Death Eaters in the Ministry.

Now we know it takes six months to brew and Slughorn had it ready for first class. I am proposing the Felix Felicis Slughorn gave Harry was actually Snape's and that Snape has been using it a few times already.

But that still raises the question: What happens if two people with opposite goals are both using Felix Felicis?

Weaknesses.
No direct evidence that Snape was using Felix Felicis.

Supporting Evidence.
HBP p160, US Ed"I meant for Hagrid to get the message," said Tonks, frowning.
"Hagrid was late for the start-of-term feast, just like Potter here, so I took it instead. And incidentally," said Snape, standing back to allow Harry to pass him, "I was interested to see your new Patronus."
HBP p164, US Ed"Hagrid was only a few minutes late," said Hermione"
HBP p170, US Ed"Got held up on the train," said Harry. "Why were you late?"
"I was with Grawp," said Hagrid happily. "Los' track o' the time...."

So it was very good timing that Snape and not Hagrid got the message from Tonks.

Lets look at when Harry used Felix Felicis.
HBP p477, US Ed."Excellent," [Harry] said. "Really excellent. Right. . . I'm going down to Hagrid's."
"What?" said Ron and Hermione together, looking aghast.
HBP p478, US Ed."Trust me," [Harry] said. "I know what I'm doing . . . or at least" - he strolled confidently to the door - "Felix does."
HBP p479, US Ed.It was when he reached the bottom step that it occurred to him how very pleasant it would be to pass the vegetable patch on his walk to Hagrid's. It was not strictly on the way, but it seemed clear to Harry that this was a whim on which he should act, . . .
<snip>
[Slughorn said,] ". . . Well, good evening to you, and many thanks again!"
Professor Sprout headed off into the gathering darkness in the direction of her greenhouses, and Slughorn directed his steps to the spot where Harry stood, invisible.

Sure seems to follow the same pattern. Good timing was the reason Harry met up with Slughorn in the vegetable patch just as it appears good timing is why Snape and not Hagrid received Tonks' Patronus.

Let's look at another example of Snape's "good timing."
HBP p523, US Ed.Harry did not know what he was saying; he fell to his knees beside Malfoy, who was shaking uncontrollably in a pool of his own blood. Moaning Myrtle let out a deafening scream: "MURDER! MURDER IN THE BATHROOM! MURDER!"
The door banged open behind Harry and he looked up, terrified: Snape had burst into the room, his face livid.

Again seems like very good timing for Snape to be right by the bathroom to save Draco given Snape's Unbreakable Vow to protect him.

Let's look at another example of the effects of Felix using the events after the tower.
HBP p601, US Ed."Impedimenta!" [Harry] yelled as he rolled over again, crouching close to the dark ground, and miraculously his jinx hit one of them, who stumbled and fell, tripping the other;. . .

HBP p602, US Ed.Harry tore past Hagrid and his opponent, took aim at Snape's back, and yelled, "Stupefy!"
He missed; the jet of red light soared past Snape's head; Snape shouted, "Run, Draco!" and turned.

HBP p604, US Ed.Mustering all his powers of concentration, Harry thought, Levi -
"No, Potter!" screamed Snape. There was a loud BANG and Harry soared backward, hitting the ground hard again, and this time his wand flew out of his hand.

So Harry makes a spectacular spell cast to hit the two Death Eaters chasing him, but barely misses Snape when taking careful aim. Then Snape knows to read Harry's mind at just the right time to see what non-verbal spell Harry is about to cast when Hermione tells us non-verbal spells are supposed to give you a split second advantage.

Let's look at what Ginny says as we know she was using Felix Felicis that night.
HBP p612, US Ed.[Ginny said,] "Harry, if we hadn't had your Felix potion, I think we'd all have been killed, but everything seemed to just miss us -"

Just as Ginny says that the spells seemed to "just miss [them]," Harry's stupify spell just misses Snape's head when Harry was aiming at Snape's back.

I think the two parallel. There isn't direct evidence, but I think there is enough circumstantial evidence to show this is plausible.

So What does Happen when two people with opposite goals are both using Felix Felicis?
I see several possibilities.
1) The task for the person who took it first gets more attention from Felix because the wheels are already in motion for them to be lucky.

2) The task for the person who took it second gets more attention from Felix because the potion is more potent in the second having taken it more recent.

3)Felix balances the luck between them to give the best outcome possible for both, but not the best outcome for either one.

I'm leaning towards 3.

Let's say Snape's goal was to wait in his room. Knock Harry out as he entered. Get to the tower unscathed. Do what he planned to do. Take Draco and leave. The best outcome would have been for Snape to "kill" Dumbledore and leave without anyone knowing he was the one that did it, other than Death Eaters and Draco.

Hermione's goal was to watch Snape and stop him if she could. So her best possible outcome would be for Harry to never show up, therefore Snape would never leave his room and Hermione would not be in danger.

So take these two best outcomes and throw them in the Felix Felicis blender and what do we have. Harry does not make it to Snape's office because Dumbledore had to freeze him on the tower to protect him. Flitwick shows up instead of Harry to get Snape. Snape tells Hermione to go tend to Flitwick and Felix nudges her to obey because if she doesn't Snape would attack her too. Snape shows up on the tower, but Harry is a witness to the event. And then Harry goes chasing after Snape.

So it really wasn't the best for either one, but in the balance of the two it was the best compromise. Snape's goal was achieved, but a witness was present. Hermione's goal was achieved in that Harry did not show up, but Snape still got past her.

Possible?

If Snape is using Felix Felicis this often, why is he not giddy as Slughorn claimed was one of the side effects of abusing it?
The answer is in the potion book. Snape modified the euphoria potion to avoid the side effects of giddyness like behavior. It is reasonable to conclude that an excellent potions master like Snape could modify Felix Felicis to avoid any problems with giddyness.

Please follow the link to read my editorial on the topic.
Editorial

Here is a wonderful synopsis of the idea by Kerry:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerry View Post
Here's a timeline of Felix use and evidence:

1: CoS, Start of Term
Series of events:
-Harry late to get to King's Cross Station
-Barrier sealed
-Harry takes car to school
-Invisibility fails
-Crash car in whomping willow
-Snape finds Harry
Reason for Felix: try to expel Harry becasue of hate for Harry's father, had good excuse then but McGonagal steps in

2: HBP, Spinner's End
Series of Events:
-Catches Wormtail listening (twice)
-Gets Bellatrix to trust him more (to the point of not openly accusing him of being a traitor)
-Gets Narcissa to tell him information she was forbidden to share by the Dark Lord
Reason for Felix: needs to know plans of Voldemort for Dumbledore so he can inform him
(Fuelpagan's Reason for Felix: to help gain the respect of the Death Eaters whom Snape will need later on)

3: HBP, Start of Term
Series of Events:
-Harry enters DE & Co's compartment
-harry's foot seen
-Harry gets hit in head by suitcase
-Harry frozen, beaten, and left under cloak
-Tonks finds Harry, although he's invisible
-Hagrid is late, so Snape intercepts message from Tonks
-Sanpe remarks how patronuses (or patroni?) can change to Harry
Reason for Felix: needs to find some way to set himself up to Harry so he can come back as someone, even with a different patronus
(Fuelpagan's Reason for Felix: Snape is planning to impersonate someone to get close to Harry, But Snape will not be able to copy the other persons patronus.)

4: HBP, Harry attacks Draco in bathroom
Series of Events:
-Harry is by bathroom, doesn't see Snape
-Attacks Draco with sectumsempra
-Snape arrives and hears the sectumsempra, making him suspicious
Reason for Felix: Snape arrived quickly, even if he's supposed to be protecting Draco. He now has a reason to get Harry in trouble (cheating with his book)

5: HBP, The Tower
Series of Events:
-Hermione and Luna put off from following Snape
-Harry delayed from getting Snape
-Snape arrives on the tower right before Draco would have to kill Dumbledore
-No curses hit Snape or Draco, although they run right through the worst
-Snape reaches the gates and dissaperates moments before being torn apart by Buckbeak
Reason for Felix: DEs are in the castle. Snape would have to chose between the DEs (& UV) and Dumbledore
(Fuelpagan's Reason for Felix: To protect Snape from the Unbreakable Vow)



Last edited by Fuelpagan; June 9th, 2007 at 7:51 pm. Reason: Added new information
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  #2  
Old August 15th, 2006, 8:16 pm
StudentOfAlbusD  Male.gif StudentOfAlbusD is offline
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Re: Could Snape be abusing Felix Felicis?

Interesting idea....Only one problem as I see it. Jo isn't someone who beats a literary device to death. She just introduced US to felix, the entire adult wizarding community knows about it.
Secondly Horace explained that there were risks involved if someone took too much too often. Snape would know that too, after all he is the HBP. Horace used it twice in his life, I doubt Snape would use it twice in one year.

Although I do like your conflicting Felixes idea. I'm not sure what would happen. Suppose they would cancel each other out heh?


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  #3  
Old August 15th, 2006, 8:19 pm
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Re: Could Snape be abusing Felix Felicis?

Mind Boggling


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Old August 15th, 2006, 8:21 pm
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Re: Could Snape be abusing Felix Felicis?

ooh interesting... but if he is using it then why doesnt he use it more often like wen he ws questionin draco during slughorns party?


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Old August 15th, 2006, 8:48 pm
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Re: Could Snape be abusing Felix Felicis?

Because it could harm him?


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Old August 15th, 2006, 9:55 pm
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Re: Could Snape be abusing Felix Felicis?

I don't remember any instances where Snape acts giddy or is reckless. How about elaborating on these side effects as well?


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Old August 15th, 2006, 10:03 pm
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Re: Could Snape be abusing Felix Felicis?

What do you mean?


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Old August 15th, 2006, 10:07 pm
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Re: Could Snape be abusing Felix Felicis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by shelbell32
I don't remember any instances where Snape acts giddy or is reckless.
I'm a fan of the whole idea - and I can

The term "reckless" makes me think of Snape's expostulations at the end of The Prisoner of Azkaban, in which he shocks Fudge so much, and yells at Harry that he knows he has saved Sirius (I've lent my book to a friend so forgive the lack of a quotation...)

An interesting sub question would be for how long Snape had been using Felix; since Hogwarts when he annotated the infamous Potions Book? Could this have caused him to crawl up the Whomping Willow tunnel in order to encounter a Werefolf...?


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Old August 15th, 2006, 10:08 pm
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Re: Could Snape be abusing Felix Felicis?

Good idea - and i do agree that maybe Snape has used Felix Felicis and he may have well done so on the night of the lightening struck tower.
However I don't think he is abusing FF. Snape is hardly Giddy or reckless
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuelpagan
But that still begs the question: What happens if two people with opposite goals are both using Felix Felicis?
Interesting point! I guess they just sort of cancel each other out with their luckiness?


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Old August 15th, 2006, 10:12 pm
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Re: Could Snape be abusing Felix Felicis?

Does it cancel out or does it both work? I mean if person A took FF and Person B took ff and they both wanted to kill the other. Would they both die?


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Old August 15th, 2006, 10:16 pm
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Re: Could Snape be abusing Felix Felicis?

I agree it's possible that Snape has used Felix (one possibility might be that Felix influenced him to take the Unbreakable Vow), but then again there's no concrete evidence that he has ever taken it.

Felix doesn't actually affect what events take place, but merely influences the user's choices. So in a chess game, both players taking Felix would know all the right lucky moves, and the game would end up in a draw.


Quote:
Originally Posted by emmasgoodlookin
Does it cancel out or does it both work? I mean if person A took FF and Person B took ff and they both wanted to kill the other. Would they both die?
I believe they would both manage to avoid the curse that each cast at each other. Staying alive would be luckier than killing your opponent.


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Last edited by crazy_ned; August 15th, 2006 at 10:19 pm.
  #12  
Old August 15th, 2006, 10:21 pm
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Re: Could Snape be abusing Felix Felicis?

Good point. I think I agree with you.


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Old August 16th, 2006, 7:42 am
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Re: Could Snape be abusing Felix Felicis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuelpagan
Seems awful "lucky" that Snape and not Hagrid got the message. Just as Harry was lucky to run into Slughorn on the way to Hagrids. Could Snape wanted Harry to know about patronuses changing for a reason?
Hmm, not that lucky. I mean, her signal was a huge gaping patronus. Anyone could have seen it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuelpagan
But that still begs the question: What happens if two people with opposite goals are both using Felix Felicis?
Interesting question.

One really needs to look at the effects of Felix Felicis. First, and probably most importantly, it increases self-confidence. A lot could be managed, you know, if we just believed in our own natural abilities a little more. Just think about Ron and the Quidditch match. It next would increase optimism. Optimists tend to naturally find solutions to problems, so it would seem. Finally, it seems like it improves clarity of mind, which makes solutions come to the head even more quickly.

But then, of course, there is the magic part of the potion. I mean, there must be magic involved, else a cup of tea would suffice, eh? So what is that final effect or quality of the potion which it renders to the drinker? Considering what the potion seems to have done for everyone who we know has taken it, the potion must have a grand outlook of things and arrange for the drinker to be in the right places at the right times. I mean, those kids, when they all took it at the end of Half-Blood Prince, probably moved around avoiding the Killing Curses at the potion's direction. The potion, let's say, acted as an outside entity or observer. The potion sees all and helps the drinker in ways that would have been impossible.

So what is the effects of habitual use? Well, I'm sure that fickle friend, Luck, would not be pleased at someone trying to force themselves a lot of it all the time. While it definitely works magic, I bet after a couple of times, the magical effects would fade, and it would become more and more like drinking tea. That's where the description of overconfidence comes into play. While under full effects of the potion, of course it wouldn't be considered overconfidence, because Luck is going to help you accomplish your goal. But after abuse, Luck is no longer on your side, and you might as well be drinking tea.

So, what do you think?


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Old August 16th, 2006, 10:18 am
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Re: Could Snape be abusing Felix Felicis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastaban43
So what is the effects of habitual use? Well, I'm sure that fickle friend, Luck, would not be pleased at someone trying to force themselves a lot of it all the time. While it definitely works magic, I bet after a couple of times, the magical effects would fade, and it would become more and more like drinking tea. That's where the description of overconfidence comes into play. While under full effects of the potion, of course it wouldn't be considered overconfidence, because Luck is going to help you accomplish your goal. But after abuse, Luck is no longer on your side, and you might as well be drinking tea.
I agree, and I think this is shown by Slughorn's insistence that it should be used very very rarely. Do you think however that the abuser would believe that they continued to feel lucky...essentially that they would feel like Ron does when he thinks he's drunk Felix, but doesn't benefit from the luckiness, only making them "giddy and reckless" as we discover the side effects can be?


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Last edited by Hardyhardnut; August 16th, 2006 at 5:35 pm.
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Old August 16th, 2006, 2:49 pm
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Re: Could Snape be abusing Felix Felicis?

This theory would explain how Snape manages to fool two strong Legilimens for so long, but I can't think of a time he has approached giddiness. And, given how often his plans are foiled (Harry getting away with things, Sirius escaping, not getting DADA for so many years), I don't think he could be taking it that much.

I think two Felix users might cancel each other out. Perhaps each would succeed in some things . . . so each would lose in some things as well.


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Old August 16th, 2006, 4:46 pm
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Re: Could Snape be abusing Felix Felicis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by StudentOfAlbusD
Secondly Horace explained that there were risks involved if someone took too much too often. Snape would know that too, after all he is the HBP. Horace used it twice in his life, I doubt Snape would use it twice in one year.
But Snape is a Slytherin and they will "go to any means to achieve their ends." Besides, Slughorn isn't having to be Super Spy for both sides. I could see Snape wanting a boost in confidence once in a while as a spy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyhardnut
An interesting sub question would be for how long Snape had been using Felix; since Hogwarts when he annotated the infamous Potions Book? Could this have caused him to crawl up the Whomping Willow tunnel in order to encounter a Werefolf...?
That is a good question! I don't know if it goes that far back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CathyWeasly
However I don't think he is abusing FF. Snape is hardly Giddy or reckless
I should have worded it as he is beginning to abuse Felix Felicis. If he is, we would see the giddy and recklessness part in the next book.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastaban43
So what is the effects of habitual use? Well, I'm sure that fickle friend, Luck, would not be pleased at someone trying to force themselves a lot of it all the time. While it definitely works magic, I bet after a couple of times, the magical effects would fade, and it would become more and more like drinking tea. That's where the description of overconfidence comes into play. While under full effects of the potion, of course it wouldn't be considered overconfidence, because Luck is going to help you accomplish your goal. But after abuse, Luck is no longer on your side, and you might as well be drinking tea. So, what do you think?
I like it. Like the potion forces you to tap into your "good luck" reservoir. Once you run out of luck...the potion can no longer help you. Works for me.


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Old August 16th, 2006, 5:34 pm
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Re: Could Snape be abusing Felix Felicis?

First of all, I do not think that there is any evidence showing that Snape has taken Felix Felicis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuelpagan
Normally I quote the book, but I don't have it with me at the moment so for now I will use the Lexicon.
LexiconUntil the effects wear off, all the drinker's endeavours will tend to succeed (HBP9). Once consumed, the potion gives the drinker an exhilarating sense of confidence and a tremendous sense of opportunity (HBP22). However, if taken in excess the potion causes giddiness, recklessness, and dangerous overconfidence, and it is highly toxic in large quantities (HBP9).

I believe that Severus Snape was using good ole Felix in two places in HBP. In "Snape Victorious" and in the combination of "The Lightning-Struck Tower" and "Flight of the Prince."

In "Snape Victorious" Harry seemed to know that Snape wanted to speak to him for a reason. He associated it with Snape wanting to embarrass Harry. But it sure seams a silly reason for an adult when there is plenty of school year left. However, the circumstances surrounding the whole situation look suspicious.
- Tonks just saved Harry from travelling all the way back to London just in time.
- Tonks is to only one we see whose Patronus has changed form.
- She sent a message to Hagrid that he barely missed because he was a tad late.
I'll start off with these 3. I do not see why these are lucky for Snape at all. The First is lucky for Harry, the second not lucky at all, and the third is unlucky for Harry, but not nessacarily lucky for Snape.
Quote:
- Snape just happened to be in the right spot to take the message and came to collect Harry.
Well I am assuming that all the teachers were in the Great Hall, so if the Patronus entered, Dumbledore could have seen it and sent Snape. Probably already knowing what it was about.

Quote:
Seems awful "lucky" that Snape and not Hagrid got the message. Just as Harry was lucky to run into Slughorn on the way to Hagrids. Could Snape wanted Harry to know about patronuses changing for a reason?
I see no comparision between the two events. Like I said above it does not seem lucky at all.
Quote:
Then on the tower scene. Snape had no trouble getting around Hermione with her lucky potion and past both the Order and the Death Eaters. He gave Harry much more trouble than Harry had against Voldemort or the Death Eaters in the Ministry.
Now, I am not trying to promote my thread, but in Felix Felicis and Why Hermione Didn't Stop Snape, it is discussed. Either you can believe that it was so Hermione didn't get hurt, or to make sure that Dumbledore died. Either way it could benefit all. He got past the Order and Death Eaters on the way up because they both thought he was going to help them, and on the way down, he had Draco. Nothing real lucky there.

Also, if he was really lucky, wouldn't Harry have tripped and broken his leg or something so he couldn't keep chasing him?

Quote:
Now we know it takes six months to brew and Slughorn had it ready for first class. I am proposing the Felix Felicis Slughorn gave Harry was actually Snapes and that Snape has been using it a few times already.
This I can't argue with, however it is possible that Snape had all of these potions already made for the new teacher on instructions from Dumbledore. Snape would have done anything to get the DADA job.

Quote:
But that still begs the question: What happens if two people with opposite goals are both using Felix Felicis?
They both get lucky.


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Old August 16th, 2006, 7:12 pm
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Re: Could Snape be abusing Felix Felicis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuelpagan
Normally I quote the book, but I don't have it with me at the moment so for now I will use the Lexicon.
LexiconUntil the effects wear off, all the drinker's endeavours will tend to succeed (HBP9). Once consumed, the potion gives the drinker an exhilarating sense of confidence and a tremendous sense of opportunity (HBP22). However, if taken in excess the potion causes giddiness, recklessness, and dangerous overconfidence, and it is highly toxic in large quantities (HBP9).
As I read the description of the side effects of using excess Felix Felicis, it seemed more likely that Voldemort is abusing the potion. As we know, the dark lord is overconfident to a fault and I am sure he is giddy now that Dumbledore is dead. His overconfidence could easily become recklessness, especially if he is currently using Felix Felicis.

I would not be surprised though, if Snape has had a nip or two of the potion himself. Never being caught as a double agent for either side throughout the years may be a testament to his talent as a legilimens/occlumens but there has to be some luck involved as well.


  #19  
Old August 16th, 2006, 7:12 pm
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Re: Could Snape be abusing Felix Felicis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyhardnut
Do you think however that the abuser would believe that they continued to feel lucky...essentially that they would feel like Ron does when he thinks he's drunk Felix, but doesn't benefit from the luckiness, only making them "giddy and reckless" as we discover the side effects can be?
Yes. Exactly. That's where the overconfidence comes in. While they are under full effects of the potion, it's not really overconfidence because the potion will make up for what the drinker couldn't do on his own. However, after habitual use, the luck part of the potion wears off rather quickly, and the drinker is left with a lot of confidence and optimism, neither of which is enough to really be lucky. But in some cases it would work. For example Ron thought he was under the effects of the potion, so he grew extra confident, which was enough to boost his natural ability. We all know that Ron is a good keeper when he is focused.


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Old August 16th, 2006, 7:54 pm
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Re: Could Snape be abusing Felix Felicis?

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Originally Posted by Fuelpagan
But that still begs the question: What happens if two people with opposite goals are both using Felix Felicis?
I imagine they'd both be lucky enough to avoid each other. Depends what the opposing goals are of course.


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