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The Timeline of Godric's Hollow



 
 
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  #61  
Old November 5th, 2006, 6:04 pm
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Re: The Timeline of Godric's Hollow

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Originally Posted by Nicole View Post
I think she was voluntarily ending the Fidelius Charm (I believe she was the caster) and sending a messenger-Patronus to Albus.

I agree with Shewoman and DudleyDursley--I really doubt James and Voldemort duelled for more than a few minutes (even ten minutes seems a bit long), though it went on long enough to 'destroy' various parts of the house when each missed their target.
I disagree. I think Harry lasted for more than ten minutes in the graveyard. And even though Voldemort was softening him up first with crucio when he could have just killed him, I think that this was more than just showboating for his DE's. If James and Lily had thrice defied Voldemort, that means James may have already had a taste of Voldemort's fighting style and knew some means of protecting himself, just as Dumbledore did in the Ministry of Magic. We know James was the most talented wizard during his time at school, so let's give him a little credit for being good.

This also gives me the idea that maybe the reason James left his cloak with Dumbledore was because he wanted to keep it away from Voldemort for some reason.


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  #62  
Old November 5th, 2006, 6:18 pm
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Re: The Timeline of Godric's Hollow

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Originally Posted by Nicole
I believe that the Potters had Godric Gryffindor's sword in their possession/keeping.
I on the other hand, believe the sword was at Hogwarts, where it's been all along.

I think Dumbledore recognized the degree of 'transformation' Voldemort had undergone, using the discrepancy of the physical disfigurements from multiple Horcrux creation as a general guide to how many had been created. That's why Dumbledore was so sure that Voldemort had made only 5 Horcruxes up to Godric's Hollow, and had made the 6th one out of the snake sometime after his rebirth---the difference in Voldemort's physical appearance from his last known physical appearance to when he was seen at the MoM.
HBP, Horcruxes"Lord Voldemort has seemed to grow less human with the passing of years, and the transformation he has undergone seemed to me to be only explicable if his soul was mutilated beyond the realms of what we might call 'usual evil'..."
CoS, Dobby's Reward"He disappeared after leaving school...traveled far and wide...sank so deeply into the Dark Arts, consorted with the very worst of our kind, underwent so many dangerous, magical transformations, that when he resurfaced as Lord Voldemort, he was barely recognizable."
HBP, Lord Voldemort's RequestVoldemort had entered the room. His features were not those Harry had seen emerge from the great stone cauldron almost two years ago: They were not as snakelike, the eyes not yet scarlet, the face not yet masklike, and yet he was no longer handsome Tom Riddle. It was though his features had been burned and blurred; they were waxy and oddly distorted, and the whites of the eyes now had a permanently bloody look, though the pupils were not yet slits that Harry knew they would become.
Mugglenet/TLC Interview 2005ES: What prompted people to start referring to Voldemort as You-Know-Who and He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named?

JKR: It happens many times in history - well, you'll know this because you're that kind of people, but for those who don't, having a taboo on a name is quite common in certain civilizations. In Africa there are tribes where the name is never used. Your name is a sacred part of yourself and you are referred to as the son of so-and-so, the brother of so-and-so, and you're given these pseudonyms, because your name is something that can be used magically against you if it's known. It's like a part of your soul. That's a powerful taboo in many cultures and across many folklores. On a more prosaic note, in the 1950s in London, there were a pair of gangsters called the Kray Twins. The story goes that people didn't speak the name Kray. You just didn't mention it. You didn't talk about them, because retribution was so brutal and bloody. I think this is an impressive demonstration of strength - that you can convince someone not to use your name. Impressive in the sense that demonstrates how deep the level of fear is that you can inspire. It's not something to be admired.

ES: I meant, was there a specific event?

JKR: With Voldemort? It was gradual. He was killing and doing some pretty evil things. In the chapter "Lord Voldemort's Request," when he comes back to request that teaching post in Book 6, you get a real sense that he's already gone quite a long way into the Dark Arts. By that time, a lot of people would be choosing not to use his name. During that time his name was never used except by Dumbledore and people who were above the superstition.
Even Hermione gets in on the act, by telling Skeeter:
OoP, The Beatle at Bay"He'll give you all the details, he'll tell you the names of the undiscovered Death Eaters he saw there, he'll tell you what Voldemort looks like now---"
So for me, the attack at Godric's was planned something like this:
  1. Kill the parents when they prove difficult; kill the Nemesis, the only one "With the Power to Vanquish the Dark Lord". "It meant that the person who has the only chance of conquering Lord Voldemort for good was born at the end of July, nearly sixteen years ago."
  2. Return to Hogwarts to face Albus Dumbledore with little fear---he'd just killed the only one "With the Power to Vanquish the Dark Lord"---now no one can stop him. "He believed that in killing you, he was destroying the danger the prophecy outlined. He believed he was making himself invincible. I am sure he was intending to make his final Horcrux with your death."
  3. Take Godric's sword and make it his 6th Horcrux, using Harry's death---the death of his chief Nemesis, the only one "With the Power to Vanquish the Dark Lord"---to make Gryffindor's artifact his final Horcrux.
  4. Make Hogwarts his stronghold for evil. "Even when you were strong, you didn't dare try and take over at Hogwarts."---"One o' the only safe places left was Hogwarts. Reckon Dumbledore's the only on You-Know-Who was afraid of. Didn't dare try takin' the school, not jus' then, anyway."
----------
Only it didn't quite work out as he'd planned...instead it would have gone something like this:
  1. Spy informs him where the Potters are hidden.
  2. Voldemort has spy accompany him to the location---'Tail was not in his hiding space when Sirius went to check on him that night.
  3. Voldemort kills the Potters; goes for Harry.
  4. The Avada Kedavra backfires turning Voldemort into Vapormort.
  5. Vapormort tells his spy---the one who'd accompanied him to Godric's Hollow---to take his wand and robes and stash them somewhere safe, and where he's going to hide--so that the Faithful Death Eaters can find and aid him. {We know this spy took the wand to Vapormort in Albania---'Tail bumped into Bertha Jorkins before finding Voldemort in the forests of Albania, yet Bertha was murdered in Albania with that wand, as evidenced by Priori Incantatem.}
  6. Vapormort flees to his hiding place.
  7. Spy takes wand/robe, hides them, then lights out for parts unknown.
  8. Spy is cornered the following day by Sirius, but gets the drop on him. Transforming into a rat, he hides for 12 years---when everyone {including his master}---believes him dead.


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  #63  
Old November 5th, 2006, 6:43 pm
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Re: The Timeline of Godric's Hollow

Thanks for all the quotes, kingwidgit. They definitely illustrate your point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingwidgit View Post
Only it didn't quite work out as he'd planned...instead it would have gone something like this:
  1. Spy informs him where the Potters are hidden.
  2. Voldemort has spy accompany him to the location---'Tail was not in his hiding space when Sirius went to check on him that night.
  3. Voldemort kills the Potters; goes for Harry.
  4. The Avada Kedavra backfires turning Voldemort into Vapormort.
  5. Vapormort tells his spy---the one who'd accompanied him to Godric's Hollow---to take his wand and robes and stash them somewhere safe, and where he's going to hide--so that the Faithful Death Eaters can find and aid him. {We know this spy took the wand to Vapormort in Albania---'Tail bumped into Bertha Jorkins before finding Voldemort in the forests of Albania, yet Bertha was murdered in Albania with that wand, as evidenced by Priori Incantatem.}
  6. Vapormort flees to his hiding place.
  7. Spy takes wand/robe, hides them, then lights out for parts unknown.
  8. Spy is cornered the following day by Sirius, but gets the drop on him. Transforming into a rat, he hides for 12 years---when everyone {including his master}---believes him dead.
I was never under the impression that once the Avada Kedavra backfired, that Vapormort was in any condition to be communicating with anyone that night. If he could communicate with any of the Death Eaters at that very moment, why wouldn't he have gone directly to one of his most trusted and loyal Death Eaters, one who knew about a horcrux, even inadvertantly, and could help restore him? I mean I suppose maybe he considered Peter Pettigrew dependable at that point. Hmmm. I just assumed that his spirit sort of drifted for a time without him having any real control until he happened upon a small enough being that he wasn't too weak to possess.

Also, if Peter was given orders that very night to report to Vapormort in Albania with his wand, and Peter decided not to do that until 12 years later ... I personally just can't imagine Peter having the courage to approach him at that point no matter the circumstances.


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  #64  
Old November 5th, 2006, 6:55 pm
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Re: The Timeline of Godric's Hollow

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Originally Posted by HagathaChristie View Post
1.

I was never under the impression that once the Avada Kedavra backfired, that Vapormort was in any condition to be communicating with anyone that night.
Following the EBF in 2004, during the meet/greet the author segment following the interview, a fan supposedly asked JK how Pettigrew came to have Voldemort's wand and robes in Goblet of Fire. JKs supposed answer? "Voldemort told him to take them and hide them." This is a rumor, and should be regarded as unproven speculation rather than fact. It has not been independantly confirmed by JK. The question/answer would have come after the interview was concluded and there was no official recording of it to verify it's authenticity.

Rumor or not, it makes the most sense. It explains why Pettigrew knew to look for Voldemort in Albania, how he knew to ask for help---via rat friends---for directions to the exact location and why he had the wand before he'd ever found Voldemort, why the wand regurgitated Bertha Jorkins echo---and why 'Tail had Voldemort's robes---which he appears to have carried the feeble Babymort around in.

I think that Voldemort still had plans to use the sword as the Final Horcrux, following Harry's death in the cemetery---but he failed to kill Harry, and settled for the snake instead.


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  #65  
Old November 6th, 2006, 7:16 pm
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Re: The Timeline of Godric's Hollow

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Originally Posted by HagathaChristie View Post
Thanks for all the quotes, kingwidgit. They definitely illustrate your point.


I was never under the impression that once the Avada Kedavra backfired, that Vapormort was in any condition to be communicating with anyone that night. If he could communicate with any of the Death Eaters at that very moment, why wouldn't he have gone directly to one of his most trusted and loyal Death Eaters, one who knew about a horcrux, even inadvertantly, and could help restore him? I mean I suppose maybe he considered Peter Pettigrew dependable at that point. Hmmm. I just assumed that his spirit sort of drifted for a time without him having any real control until he happened upon a small enough being that he wasn't too weak to possess.

Also, if Peter was given orders that very night to report to Vapormort in Albania with his wand, and Peter decided not to do that until 12 years later ... I personally just can't imagine Peter having the courage to approach him at that point no matter the circumstances.
I agree. I think that Wormtail was definitely there that night, saw his master's soul ripped from his body, and wanting to be able to possibly take on some of that power for himself, grabbed Voldemort's wand and ran. This would also explain the huge explosion when he faked his own death. Wormtail wasn't known for being that strong of a wizard on his own, but with Voldemort's wand, he may very well have been able to make that size of blast and kill all those people.


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  #66  
Old November 6th, 2006, 7:24 pm
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Re: The Timeline of Godric's Hollow

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Originally Posted by ID824 View Post
but with Voldemort's wand, he may very well have been able to make that size of blast and kill all those people.
But such a use of magic would surely have manifested itself in the Priori Incantatem. That's all spells cast with that wand, not just spells cast by the "owner", Voldemort. There are no spells between Bertha and Lily, not even the backfiring AK on Harry.


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  #67  
Old November 6th, 2006, 7:28 pm
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Re: The Timeline of Godric's Hollow

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Originally Posted by kingwidgit View Post
Following the EBF in 2004, during the meet/greet the author segment following the interview, a fan supposedly asked JK how Pettigrew came to have Voldemort's wand and robes in Goblet of Fire. JKs supposed answer? "Voldemort told him to take them and hide them." This is a rumor, and should be regarded as unproven speculation rather than fact. It has not been independantly confirmed by JK. The question/answer would have come after the interview was concluded and there was no official recording of it to verify it's authenticity.

Rumor or not, it makes the most sense. It explains why Pettigrew knew to look for Voldemort in Albania, how he knew to ask for help---via rat friends---for directions to the exact location and why he had the wand before he'd ever found Voldemort, why the wand regurgitated Bertha Jorkins echo---and why 'Tail had Voldemort's robes---which he appears to have carried the feeble Babymort around in.

I think that Voldemort still had plans to use the sword as the Final Horcrux, following Harry's death in the cemetery---but he failed to kill Harry, and settled for the snake instead.
Lots of people knew to look for Voldemort in Albania, including Sirius and Dumbledore for starters. And his rat friends never really said exactly was asking around for information, but he was able to put two and two together to match Voldemort up with some dark part of the forest that rats would no longer go because some mysterious shadow (or something to that effect) was killing them.

As for the robes, there's nothing mentioned anywhere (that I'm aware of) that states Babymort was carried around in Voldemort's original robes at all. They could simply be black robes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicole View Post
But such a use of magic would surely have manifested itself in the Priori Incantatem. That's all spells cast with that wand, not just spells cast by the "owner", Voldemort. There are no spells between Bertha and Lily, not even the backfiring AK on Harry.
But how would an explosion manifest itself? An echo of a blast? A quick flash of light? The only things that came out of the wand that night were "spirits" of those the wand had killed, and echos of the screams of the victim of curses. But since the "victim" of the blast that Sirius was framed for was aimed at a street - not exactly a good source of screaming or torment.


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  #68  
Old November 6th, 2006, 7:48 pm
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Re: The Timeline of Godric's Hollow

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I agree. I think that Wormtail was definitely there that night, saw his master's soul ripped from his body, and wanting to be able to possibly take on some of that power for himself, grabbed Voldemort's wand and ran. This would also explain the huge explosion when he faked his own death. Wormtail wasn't known for being that strong of a wizard on his own, but with Voldemort's wand, he may very well have been able to make that size of blast and kill all those people.
But the wand chooses the wizard, and a wizard will never get as good of results from another wizard's wand, so if he used Voldemort's wand, he probably would have had less control of his spell.


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Old November 6th, 2006, 8:38 pm
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Re: The Timeline of Godric's Hollow

My version of events: (a work in progress)

-James or Lily cast the Fidelus charm. Peter goes into hiding and Sirius makes appearances elsewhere to misdirect any potential searchers.

-Peter betrays the Potter's location.

-Voldemort immediately moves to kill Harry and create his last Horcrux.

-Voldemort appears at Godric's Hollow, bringing his artifact for use- Gryffindor's sword.

-Sirius goes to check on Peter and finds him gone.

-Voldemort kills James, pursues and kills Lily.

-Dumbledore suddenly recalls the Potter's location.

-He realizes that this means that Sirius (the supposed SK) has probably been killed, and apparates to Godric's Hollow immediately.

-Voldemort prepares to kill Harry and make his last Horcrux with the relic of Slytherin's greatest rival.

-Dumblerdore arrives at the house, realizes that something is terribly wrong and rushes inside just as Voldemort is firing the killing curse at Harry.

-Voldemort is destroyed by the rebounded curse, as well as the house.

-Dumbledore grabs Harry and shields him from the falling wreckage.

-He sees the sword amid the ruins and knows he has to take several immediate actions.

-He summons Hagrid. (Some time passes)

-While he waits, he examines the magic traces in the house and on Harry, and realizes what magic was invoked.

-He then decides to use a charm to use this magic to hide Harry at Privet Drive.

-He finds Lily and James's bodies.

-Hagrid arrives.

-They quietly bury James and Lily's bodies somewhere on the property and hide the graves.

-Peter takes advantage to go rat, grab the wand and leave.

-Dumbledore gives Harry to Hagrid and takes the sword.

-He tells Hagrid to meet him at Privet Drive (again, which will take some time since Hagrid cannot use his wand or apparate) and leaves.

-Sirius arrives at GH, gives Hagrid his bike and pursues Peter in dog form.

-Dumbledore inters the sword in his office, in a case charmed to be overlooked by those who do not need to see it.

-He then writes the letter and prepares the charm, sends messages to the Order.

-He meets Hagrid (and McGonagall) at Privet Drive, almost a day after the inital attack.



Last edited by Hinoema; November 6th, 2006 at 8:42 pm.
  #70  
Old November 6th, 2006, 9:11 pm
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Re: The Timeline of Godric's Hollow

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Originally Posted by Hinoema View Post
-Dumbledore suddenly recalls the Potter's location.

-He realizes that this means that Sirius (the supposed SK) has probably been killed, and apparates to Godric's Hollow immediately.
But, as we know that neither Sirius nor Peter were killed, how could this have happened?


  #71  
Old November 6th, 2006, 9:34 pm
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Re: The Timeline of Godric's Hollow

Well, if he suddenly realizes that the Fidelus charm is no longer working, he would likely think that it was because the secret keeper was captured and killed. All the more reason to protect and relocate the Potter's immediately. Less likely that he would immediately think that the secret was betrayed and the charm broken because the protectees had been murdered.


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Old November 6th, 2006, 9:49 pm
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Re: The Timeline of Godric's Hollow

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Originally Posted by Hinoema View Post
Well, if he suddenly realizes that the Fidelus charm is no longer working, he would likely think that it was because the secret keeper was captured and killed. All the more reason to protect and relocate the Potter's immediately. Less likely that he would immediately think that the secret was betrayed and the charm broken because the protectees had been murdered.
I supposed you're right, because otherwise they never would have found Harry. It seems strange to me, though, that they went into hiding (presumably) because the prophecy referred to Harry, so why wasn't he included in the spell?


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Old November 6th, 2006, 9:51 pm
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Re: The Timeline of Godric's Hollow

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Originally Posted by Hinoema View Post
he would likely think that it was because the secret keeper was captured and killed.
You mean Albus doesn't really know how the Fidelius Charm works? JKR says the death of the Secret Keeper means the secret goes to the grave, not that the Charm ends.


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  #74  
Old November 6th, 2006, 9:58 pm
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Re: The Timeline of Godric's Hollow

Ooh, good one! Lol... I totally forgot about that! That's what I get for multitasking.

I have a strong feeling that Dumbledore went to Godric's Hollow just as Voldemort was about to attempt killing Harry.

Of course, if Snape alerted him of the betrayal, that would fit as well. Let me fix that.

-James or Lily cast the Fidelus charm. Peter goes into hiding and Sirius makes appearances elsewhere to misdirect any potential searchers.

-Peter betrays the Potter's location.

-Voldemort immediately moves to kill Harry and create his last Horcrux.

-Voldemort appears at Godric's Hollow, bringing his artifact for use- Gryffindor's sword.

-Sirius goes to check on Peter and finds him gone.

-Snape alerts Dumbledore to the betrayal.

-Voldemort kills James, pursues and kills Lily.

-Dumbledore apparates to Godric's Hollow immediately after recieving Snape's warning.

-Voldemort prepares to kill Harry and make his last Horcrux with the relic of Slytherin's greatest rival.

-Dumblerdore arrives at the house, realizes that something is terribly wrong and rushes inside just as Voldemort is firing the killing curse at Harry.

-Voldemort is destroyed by the rebounded curse, as well as the house.

-Dumbledore grabs Harry and shields him from the falling wreckage.

-He sees the sword amid the ruins and knows he has to take several immediate actions.

-He summons Hagrid. (Some time passes)

-While he waits, he examines the magic traces in the house and on Harry, and realizes what magic was invoked.

-He then decides to use a charm to use this magic to hide Harry at Privet Drive.

-He finds Lily and James's bodies.

-Hagrid arrives.

-They quietly bury James and Lily's bodies somewhere on the property and hide the graves.

-Peter takes advantage to go rat, grab the wand and leave.

-Dumbledore gives Harry to Hagrid and takes the sword.

-He tells Hagrid to meet him at Privet Drive (again, which will take some time since Hagrid cannot use his wand or apparate) and leaves.

-Sirius arrives at GH, gives Hagrid his bike and pursues Peter in dog form.

-Dumbledore inters the sword in his office, in a case charmed to be overlooked by those who do not need to see it.

-He then writes the letter and prepares the charm, sends messages to the Order.

-He meets Hagrid (and McGonagall) at Privet Drive, almost a day after the initial attack.


I like that. Then Dumbledore can be in on the secret. Thanks, Nicole!


  #75  
Old November 6th, 2006, 11:13 pm
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Re: The Timeline of Godric's Hollow

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Originally Posted by BurrowGhoul View Post
But the wand chooses the wizard, and a wizard will never get as good of results from another wizard's wand, so if he used Voldemort's wand, he probably would have had less control of his spell.
Which could be just as much of a reason why the explosion was so massive.


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  #76  
Old November 6th, 2006, 11:17 pm
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Re: The Timeline of Godric's Hollow

Good point.


  #77  
Old November 7th, 2006, 5:58 am
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Re: The Timeline of Godric's Hollow

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Originally Posted by ID824 View Post
Which could be just as much of a reason why the explosion was so massive.
I agree that it is possible that the destruction happens during the battle between James and Voldemort, but the few times hat the events at Godric's Hollow is discussed in the books doesn't mention if it happened before or after Voldemort looses his body. It just states that the house was found in ruins. The manner in which is suggested for the house to be found in ruins does seem most logical, however, I don't think James was much of a match for Voldemort.

I agree with the idea about Lily removing the fidilus charm as it would explain how the muggles would notice the destruction of the house. (Dumbledore mentions his concern about muggles noticing twice, once in book 1 during the street scene on Privet Drive, and once again at the end of book 5.) If the fidilus charm was indeed still in effect, then the muggles would not notice anything, meaning Dumbledore's comments are either plot holes, or clues, in my opinion, that the fidilus charm was broken by Lily before her death.


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  #78  
Old November 7th, 2006, 5:10 pm
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Re: The Timeline of Godric's Hollow

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Originally Posted by Nicole View Post
You mean Albus doesn't really know how the Fidelius Charm works? JKR says the death of the Secret Keeper means the secret goes to the grave, not that the Charm ends.
So the person(s) the charm is protecting would have to be dead, not the secret keeper.


  #79  
Old November 7th, 2006, 6:15 pm
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Re: The Timeline of Godric's Hollow

True- if the charm was on James and Lily and they died...


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Old November 7th, 2006, 6:37 pm
confutatis  Male.gif confutatis is offline
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Re: The Timeline of Godric's Hollow

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingwidgit View Post
Following the EBF in 2004, during the meet/greet the author segment following the interview, a fan supposedly asked JK how Pettigrew came to have Voldemort's wand and robes in Goblet of Fire. JKs supposed answer? "Voldemort told him to take them and hide them." This is a rumor, and should be regarded as unproven speculation rather than fact. It has not been independantly confirmed by JK. The question/answer would have come after the interview was concluded and there was no official recording of it to verify it's authenticity.

Rumor or not, it makes the most sense. It explains why Pettigrew knew to look for Voldemort in Albania, how he knew to ask for help---via rat friends---for directions to the exact location and why he had the wand before he'd ever found Voldemort, why the wand regurgitated Bertha Jorkins echo---and why 'Tail had Voldemort's robes---which he appears to have carried the feeble Babymort around in.

I think that Voldemort still had plans to use the sword as the Final Horcrux, following Harry's death in the cemetery---but he failed to kill Harry, and settled for the snake instead.
He needn't have told him *that night*. Obviously LV was planning for the eventuality of his mortal body being killed at some point - else, why all the trouble to create horcruxes? If he was planning for that, would he not have also given a trusted assistant instructions that, if LV did die, to secure LV's wand and robe and hide them? He didn't even have to tell this assistant why, just that he would be back. I suspect that 'tail was given the instructions long before (and maybe some other death eaters as well), just in case. It is quite fair to assume that it was Pettigrew who was with LV on the fateful Halloween, and he did as previously instructed.



Last edited by confutatis; November 7th, 2006 at 6:40 pm.
 
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