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ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.



 
 
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  #101  
Old June 12th, 2007, 3:48 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlessnider View Post
If you re-arrange the letters to Irma Pince, you can spell out "I am Prince."
What's the importance of Snape's mother going undercover in disguise as the HogWarts Librarian however?
One good guess is that it explains why DD trusted Snape. If Snape's mother (or another relative) was in hiding at Hogwarts, with the help of DD, then that might be DD's "ironclad reason". There are other guesses, too; but this is the one I happen to believe .


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  #102  
Old June 12th, 2007, 3:50 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

I start to smile, and then laugh about a scene in which the HogWarts librarian says to Harry, "Snape is my son, and he has a good heart." Is there any interaction between the librarian and Severus?


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  #103  
Old June 12th, 2007, 3:53 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlessnider View Post
I start to smile, and then laugh about a scene in which the HogWarts librarian says to Harry, "Snape is my son, and he has a good heart." Is there any interaction between the librarian and Severus?
I think the early pages of this thread have a bunch, but one such example is when Snape almost catches Harry in the restricted section. There have been a bunch of examples of where Snape has an unusual connection to the library; and his office happens to be nowhere near the library. I'll let someone else jump in with the specifics; I don't have them off the top of my head.


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  #104  
Old June 12th, 2007, 4:34 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlessnider View Post
I start to smile, and then laugh about a scene in which the HogWarts librarian says to Harry, "Snape is my son, and he has a good heart." Is there any interaction between the librarian and Severus?(....)If you re-arrange the letters to Irma Pince, you can spell out "I am Prince." What's the importance of Snape's mother going undercover in disguise as the HogWarts Librarian however?
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlessnider View Post
If you re-arrange the letters to Irma Pince, you can spell out "I am Prince."
What's the importance of Snape's mother going undercover in disguise as the HogWarts Librarian however?
You'll have to go back to read from page 1. To get the whole theory. There's a lot more to it than an anagram.

Snape has never been seen to interact with Pince in the books (though Rickman's Snape is seen sitting next to Pince in COS movie. The movies are not canon, I know, but interesting nonetheless.)

However, Snape and Filch are often seen in vicinity of the library whenever there is a disturbance- ex: PS/SS...GOF... and if you read the beginning of this thread you'll see my section on "The Egg and the Eye" in GOF and how I relate it to this theory. As well as all the other connections Snape has with the library.

I discussed some of the possible ramifications of Pince=Prince onPage 2 of this thread, in relation to character development, understanding Dumbledore's Trust in Snape, the Unbreakable Vow, The History or Tom Riddle and possibly Horcrux info? ....and other unanswered questions. The main possible "use" of Irma/Eileen could still pass along pertinent information under the radar on the Voldemort's plans now that Snape is persona non grata.

Please read back from page one and see what you think!


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Last edited by Bscorp; June 12th, 2007 at 4:38 pm.
  #105  
Old June 12th, 2007, 5:57 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

haven have time to read through the whole thing yet but it's a really good theory...

Irma Pince defintely seems to have something to do with Snape.


  #106  
Old June 13th, 2007, 4:01 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

I had never even thought about that possibility, but this theory is really good ! All the research and effort put into it amazes me. I now consider this a good possibility !
This could tie into the overall plot by explaining the character of Snape better... and if Eileen Prince is indeed hiding as Madam Pince... maybe she knows something about Horcruxes that could help Harry !


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  #107  
Old June 13th, 2007, 5:04 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Thanks Dantres and Elviriel and Welcome!


  #108  
Old June 14th, 2007, 5:37 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
Rickman's Snape is seen sitting next to Pince in COS movie. The movies are not canon, I know, but interesting nonetheless.
Quote:
Mark Radcliffe: Jo created this world, we wanted to stay true to it and organic to it, and that's been our mission.
Jo Rowling: Alfonso had good intuition about what would and wouldn't work. He's put things in the film that, without knowing it, foreshadow things that are going to happen in the final two books. So I really got goosebumps when I saw a couple of those things, and I thought people are going to look back on the film and think those were put in deliberately as clues.

Steve Kloves: Jo wants the movies to be faithful to the books, on the other hand, she realizes that they're completely different mediums. To be entirely faithful, these movies would be sixteen hours long.
Interview with David Heyman, Steve Kloves, Mark Radcliffe, Alfonso Cuaron, and Jo Rowling,
Prisoner of Azkaban DVD "Extra," November 23, 2004

Bscorp, I thought you would enjoy this quote. Considering it roughly says that Ms. Rowling tries to keep the important stuff in the movies. She doesn't want the moviegoer to miss out on the important clues found in the books.


  #109  
Old June 14th, 2007, 7:01 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Thanks Sevs... (STL for short?) - I appreciate the quote.

I can't imagine that someone on the set-just called up Sally Mortemore (sp?) and said, hey if you're not busy, we need someone to come in and fill the spot next to Alan Rickman at the table in the big banquet scene.

No, I think someone said -"Bring MMe Pince in for this shot" as well as- " give her this feathered cap and boa to wear, and sit her there (and pay her full union wages) to sit next to Snape and Smirk knowingly." ! and again, She is not seen anywhere near Snape in the books- but always appears after Snape is "wounded" on some level.


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Last edited by Bscorp; June 14th, 2007 at 7:04 am.
  #110  
Old June 15th, 2007, 9:26 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
However, Snape and Filch are often seen in vicinity of the library whenever there is a disturbance- ex: PS/SS...GOF... and if you read the beginning of this thread you'll see my section on "The Egg and the Eye" in GOF and how I relate it to this theory. As well as all the other connections Snape has with the library.
There's another place besides the library to which Snape has a connection, the Astronomy Tower. Snape's "moment of truth" about his loyalty happens there and he searches the Astronomy Tower during PoA for Sirius. I had started a thread about Snape and Sinistra possibly being brother and sister, but I got busy, neglected it, and the mods did to it what the Blacks do to house elves too old to carry tea trays

I reposted some of it in this thread, if anyone would like to check it out.

Secret Sinistra?


http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=103024&page=2


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  #111  
Old June 15th, 2007, 9:52 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

So we can find supporting evidence for Irma=Eileen, what about the evidence that Filch=Tobias Snape? I find it interesting that Pince, Filch and Snape also have meanings that connect to stealing (pince means pinch, as does Snape).


  #112  
Old June 15th, 2007, 10:23 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

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Originally Posted by RavenEye View Post
So we can find supporting evidence for Irma=Eileen, what about the evidence that Filch=Tobias Snape? I find it interesting that Pince, Filch and Snape also have meanings that connect to stealing (pince means pinch, as does Snape).
Filch is mean and Tobias was mean?
Neither of them did magic?


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  #113  
Old June 15th, 2007, 10:28 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

I can appreciate the idea of filch =Tobias and considered that myself, but I don't believe he could be because Filch is confirmed as a squib by Rowling. Snape is a Half-blood and if Tobias was a squib Snape would be full blood wouldn't he?

Also Filch is mean but Snape demurs to him and he demurs to Pince. It might be a nice switcheroo if Snape Sr. the bully became a servant to his son, but ... no I think not. Plus I just like the idea that Eilleen Left the bully behind for a new life and I like the idea that the Pince/Filch relationship is something that might have developed over a very long time and was only cemented by Dumbledore's death, like so many of the other relationships in HBP.


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Last edited by Bscorp; June 15th, 2007 at 10:33 pm.
  #114  
Old June 15th, 2007, 11:36 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bscorp View Post
I can appreciate the idea of filch =Tobias and considered that myself, but I don't believe he could be because Filch is confirmed as a squib by Rowling. Snape is a Half-blood and if Tobias was a squib Snape would be full blood wouldn't he?
Based on science, Severus would still be a halfblood. Witch/Wizard is represented with Ww. Muggle is Mm. A squib would be wm.

W | w
M WM | wm
m Wm | wm

W | m
W WW | Wm
w Ww | wm

This would prove, scientifically, that Severus would indeed still be a halfblood. But, he would have a quarter chance at being quite powerful or being a squib, himself. But, if his father is indeed Tobias, who is a muggle he would undoubtedly be a halfblood. Which I totally support. Because there is no canon to support Argus Filch being Tobias Snape.


  #115  
Old June 16th, 2007, 3:39 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Why would a squib be considered part muggle? A squib with two pureblood parents would still be a pureblood - makes no difference whether he's magical or not. For instance, even tho' Neville said his family was worried for ages that he might turn out 'all-muggle' it isn't actually true. He would still have been a pureblood, even if he was a squib. Still the child of two pureblood parents.

Therefore the child of a pureblood witch and a pureblood squib would still turn out to be a pureblood - whether he would turn out magical or not is unknown until he shows accidental magic.


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When Dumbledore asked Snape, "If you are prepared..." he didn't mean 'Have your Death Eeater robes returned from the cleaners'.
Everything we've seen Snape do, was done knowing Voldemort WOULD return someday.

And when that day would come, that he had better have the appropriate memories that would enable him to lie to Voldy's face.
  #116  
Old June 16th, 2007, 6:40 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

I appreciate your science STL! But again, I have with your overall opinion and with hywla. A squib could be a pure blood and in any event, a "muggle" would not be "half squib" or a half wizard. As I understand it, muggle has not magic heritage ( am I correct?)

There is the possibility, of course, that the news clipping that Hermione found about Tobias and Eileen was inaccurate in reporting him as a "muggle." If Tobias was a squib and "half blood" himself- ... well– no I don't buy it.

Rowling titled a book on the "Half Blood Prince" and that's what Snape is- so his dad was indeed a muggle. So.... No I have to agree with popular consensus here. Filch is not Tobias.


  #117  
Old June 16th, 2007, 10:52 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anabel View Post
Sorry, but "pincher" is not even a word in British

If we are using this photo as a clue, I'd be a bit worried by the fact that Madam Pince looks younger than Snape. Surely Jo would want an older actress if she is actually Snape's mother?




Irma Pince might be a pureblood witch. Doesn't it take longer for pureblood witches to age? Snape is a half-blood so maybe he ages just like the muggles.

I love this theory!! I was skeptical before, but after reading this, you have me 100% convinced!! Now I'm curious as to how this is going to unfold, and why it's significant for her to be in hiding and how she's going to help.


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Last edited by Myst; June 16th, 2007 at 10:54 am.
  #118  
Old June 16th, 2007, 11:26 am
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

Wow.. I'm impressed, you put alot of effort into this!

Anyway, I was amused when I first saw the thread title, but boy, you made me think it might be plausible! Similar names.. but I don't think it'll come true.. maybe it will. A factor that would help alot would be age.. does anyone have a legit source of her age?


  #119  
Old June 16th, 2007, 3:42 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

No - we do not have a real source for her age unless the potions book Snape used as a kid was originally HER potions book while she was at school. IF it was then she would be at least 2-3 years younger than Voldy, About a year youger than Hagrid and possibly 4-6 years younger than Minerva. But since the publishing date said almost 50 yrs before, we cannot be sure she isn't younger. I would assume however, that she isn't considerably younger.

But consider Minerva of the books (not movie) - no gray hair, it's black. Same with Hagrid - black hair, no gray. And both of them are in their 60s. So, you cannot always tell age just by looking at a wizard.

But mostly, we are also looking at a Snape in that picture that is played by a much older person than the character. Rickman is the perfect Snape, but he's a 60-yr old man playing someone in his mid-30s. Combine that with the way the movies have portrayed Harry's parents - they look like early 40s, when they should appear just 20.

And besides - if she has been transfigured, there's no reason they would need to keep wrinkles. She's also pretty in the pic from the movie, but apparently wasn't thought so by Harry or Ron when they saw the photo of her from the newspaper. So - assuming Irma Pince is Eileen, then she was also transfigured to be prettier, so why not younger?

I prefer to think of it as important that the movie put her there next to Snape - why would the librarian necessarily be sitting next to the Head of Slytherin? Especially for the end of year feast when Slytherin is expected to win the House Cup?

I see it as that the seating arrangement was important. For some reason they hired a specific actress - not an extra, to play the librarian, but her most noticeable scene is just sitting next to Snape.

But IF she has been transfigured, then it really doesn't matter all that much what she looks like - except that there seems to have been a choice to make her look more like Snape (in the nose) for some unknown reason.

Who knows - maybe she previously had a little button nose and her reading glasses kept falling off?


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When Dumbledore asked Snape, "If you are prepared..." he didn't mean 'Have your Death Eeater robes returned from the cleaners'.
Everything we've seen Snape do, was done knowing Voldemort WOULD return someday.

And when that day would come, that he had better have the appropriate memories that would enable him to lie to Voldy's face.

Last edited by hwyla; June 16th, 2007 at 3:58 pm.
  #120  
Old June 16th, 2007, 9:05 pm
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Re: ASSUMING Irma Pince=Eileen Prince Snape's Mother in hiding.

As to the age of Irma Pince, I don’t believe there is anything citing her as young but in HBP she is said to appear “shriveled” with skin like Parchment. We discussed this a couple of pages back. )
Quote:
Originally Posted by hwyla View Post
Who knows - maybe she previously had a little button nose and her reading glasses kept falling off?
I can just picture the scene: On a dark stormy night in Spinner's end. Dumbledore, Snape and Eileen are all standing there as DD mutters an incantation- *poof* we see Irma Pince with a button nose - and her glasses slip off and hit the floor.

Dumbledore; "Oh- dear that won't do now will it?- Hmmm (ponders a moment,) Ah! Of course! Forgive me Severus- but *pop!* she's – Got your nose!" (DD Chuckles.)

On that note I wanted to introduce something else I found recently.

I was doing some research on the subject real life magicians in history that some have theorized might have partly inspired the characters of Albus Dumbledore and Horace Slughorn. Wikipedia points to “The Great Albini” and Horace Goldin as two possible sources for Rowling's characters. Goldin and Albini were contemporaries and rivals but apparently Goldin looked up to Albini and idolized him as well. Goldin was famous for the “sawing a lady in half” trick. He relied heavily on the theatrical element of the show and would stage elaborate events by having paramedics show up and stand outside to heighten the sense of physical danger. Anyway…

I came across the name Servais Le Roy, a Belgian who was another one of Horace Goldin’s contemporaries and rivals who later teamed up with him on the road.

Servais, the real life magician, paid Goldin to use his sawed woman trick and also hired people to dress as paramedics and “wait” in the crowd “if anything went wrong.” He was also known for the “Modern Cabinet” trick where someone would enter- then disappear. (Vanishing cabinet anyone?) but from what I’ve read, Servaise was most known for his

He was the inventor of a trick known as "Asrah the Floating Princess" where the magician “hypnotizes his/her assistant and commands him/her to recline on a table or couch. The assistant is then fully covered with a cloth and levitated under the cloth. The form of the assistant is still visible while levitating. Moments later, the assistant slowly floats down. As the magician pulls off the cloth, the assistant vanishes instantly.(source.)

Hmmm… Servais Le Roy was also known as the “Monarch of Mystery” (the French nickname le roi meaning "the king".) He levitated a body- a “Princess” no less- covered with a cloth, much like a corpse would be. Then the body is revealed only to vanish.

Rowling’s Severus is a “Prince” who has claimed to be putting on an “Act” (good or bad) and (AK or no AK) will always be known for levitating a body over the ramparts and disappearing over the castle wall.
If there was a remote chance that The Great Albus Dumbledore was still alive I would use this connection for that theory. It is still possible that a certain amount of theater played into that final scene on the Lightening struck Tower. However, I wonder if I can’t apply some of this history to Eileen Prince possibly disappearing in the past.

The visual made by a lifeless body under a sheet calls to my mind the practice of covering a dead body with a sheet. So what if someone appeared to kill her and someone else made her body vanish… ?


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“But the big ones, the Dumbledore storyline, the Snape storyline were always there because you — the series is built around those.” -J.K. Rowling

Last edited by Bscorp; June 16th, 2007 at 9:34 pm.
 
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