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Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.7



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Yes, he was strict but fair and his students learned a lot. 16 11.03%
Kind of. He meant well but his methods are questionable. 47 32.41%
Not really. I'm not comfortable with him insulting children left in his care. 43 29.66%
Absolutely not! Bullying inferiors is inexcusable. 47 32.41%
I'm not sure and/or there is no option that reflects my opinion. 28 19.31%
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  #781  
Old April 5th, 2008, 12:21 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tara_Kedavra View Post
I`ll always wonder why JKR made her so called heroes so utterly hateable?
Harry is such a love.

I saw James and Sirius as good friends and James as a person who loved Lily and died for Harry. That was all. I did not see them as heroes at all, mainly because my idea and concept of a hero is someting different.

Snape now is a Hero to me, mainly because he can look at himself and rectify his wrongs without breaking. I admire that. He is very, very strong mentally IMO. Snape is flawed but is able to acknowlede that and work on it IMO. That raises him in my eyes.


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  #782  
Old April 5th, 2008, 12:25 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.7

I think all the good characters were heroes in some way. I think in essence they were heroes because they fought for the right side for the right reasons. I'm not really sure who I think was the biggest hero, because they were all heroes in their own way.


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  #783  
Old April 5th, 2008, 12:47 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
NATO's ideal is what the Order adopted in HP universe, to bring peace and security to the territory - fighting a regime which endangered the peace and security of a larger region.
Wicked, don't be so easily fooled. NATO was created as an alliance with the idea to counterbalance the military power of Russia. It has nothing to do with ideals. And NATO soldiers are getting paid and told where to go and fight, right?

About Kosovo, I don't think you know what was really going on there. Kosovo has always been a part of Serbia. It's a crucial part of their history and country. You don't know what it means to them to be parted from it because of recent refuge history. Justice or altruism have nothing to do with what's going on on the Balkans.

I would like to say I agree completely with Zara's and Silver Ink Pot's posts from two pages back - about Snape doing all he did just because he was willing to do what he thought was right. It's true there was nothing for him to expect, no prize at the end of it. And I agree about him not doing it in order to be redeemed, because I also believe he didn't think he could be; but just because he felt he had to. That's how I see it.


  #784  
Old April 5th, 2008, 1:56 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tara_Kedavra View Post
I`ll always wonder why JKR made her so called heroes so utterly hateable?
Well I wouldn't say hateable - just human! James, Sirius, Remus and Lily have their character flaws as well - that's what I love about the books - none of it is clear cut - no one is always in the right, and no one is always in the wrong (except Voldie and perhaps Bella)



Quote:
Originally Posted by PearlTook
I think all of them were culpable
My feelings exactly!

Quote:
And I am a rabid Snape fangirl
Me too! Perhaps I should put it in my sig - or would that be like putting "I like the Harry Potter books" in my sig?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana
I would like to say I agree completely with Zara's and Silver Ink Pot's posts from two pages back - about Snape doing all he did just because he was willing to do what he thought was right. It's true there was nothing for him to expect, no prize at the end of it. And I agree about him not doing it in order to be redeemed, because I also believe he didn't think he could be; but just because he felt he had to. That's how I see it.
Yes - I agree with you and Zara and SIP too. There was nothing in it for him, just the knowledge that he was doing what was right.


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Even if everyone hates him for it, that's the sacrifice he's making. He's not being the hero. He's being something more.

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  #785  
Old April 5th, 2008, 2:08 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
Dumbledore's forgiveness wasn't required, Snape hadn't wronged him. Dumbledore eventually accepted Snape for who he was and trusted him though. But we were speaking of those willing to forgive for the wrongs Snape had done to them.
OOH! When I said the whole forgiveness thing I meant for everything, for who he was and what he did in general not just to specific people. I mean, if Snape had lived and went back out into society after the final battle, he would always be censured. Acceptance of his transformation (from being a DE to being on the Order's side) and who he really is would not have been readily given, imo. That is the forgiveness of which I speak and even though Dumbledore was not harmed directly by Snape, he has forgiven him for his past.


  #786  
Old April 5th, 2008, 2:31 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
But he didn't suddenly transform into a new man with all new values, a new belief system and a zest for life among the Order killing his old mates. Is that what you meant?
The canon is that he did change - simple as that. "Snape was not yours from the moment you threatened her."

Have you ever heard that old saying, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend?" or how about "He who is with us cannot be against us"?

Or the most famous from Shakespeare:

“We few, we happy few, we band of brothers. For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother; be never so vile. This day shall gentle his condition."


Quote:
Originally Posted by WWB
You think he went to Dumbledore because he wanted to bring down Voldemort for the sake of the world? Snape never mentioned anything like that - he said he'd come to ask Dumbledore to keep Lily safe. He didn't volunteer to work for the good side and he seemed surprised when Dumbledore said he wanted something in return. So again, I am a little confused by what you mean.
Years went by after that one scene. Years and Years, as well as Lily's death which Snape had to live with for ten years before Harry came to Hogwarts, then seven more years while Harry grew up. Motivation can change over the years.

Snape is a character who grew, unlike many characters in the books. He was trapped in his situation, but he also transformed himself through remorse.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WWB
I didn't say that Snape should receive forgiveness. I said that nobody was willing to forgive him as far as we know - based on the canon. The only exception was Harry (and it doesn't say that in the book, but JKR said it afterward). Dumbledore would have forgiven Snape, but Snape hadn't wronged him. It was Snape who had to forgive Dumbledore because the elder wizard had wrong him, imo.
If Dumbledore wasn't forgiving, he would have kept blaming Snape for the deaths of the Potters, but he did not. In fact, Dumbledore always tells Harry the opposite - that Snape is on his side and finally that Snape felt remorse for the deaths of the Potters. Forgiveness doesn't just come from the person who is wronged, but from those who know the truth about someone.

Snape confessed everything to Dumbledore, who became his "witness." That is why Dumbledore stood up for Snape in court, and why he let him teach at Hogwarts, and why he trusted him completely.

He knew Snape had a heart even if no one else knew or cared - and most people never did. That is the tragedy of Severus Snape.

Look at how Dumbledore's opinion changed - from "you disgust me" to "I trust Severus Snape." Dumbledore also realized Snape had "wounds too deep for healing" and the thought of that made Dumbledore shed a tear.

Dumbledore did wrong by Snape in not warning him about the Elder Wand. I don't think Dumbledore wanted Snape to die at all. But Dumbledore's flaw was that he was willing to sacrifice Snape to save Harry and defeat Voldemort. Dumbledore admits that he didn't care how many people lost their lives as long as Harry was safe, so maybe that is why JKR called Dumbledore "Machiavellian."

However, I think Snape knew the odds were he wouldn't make it to the end, and he took that risk for Harry.


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  #787  
Old April 5th, 2008, 2:57 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot View Post
Or the most famous from Shakespeare:

“We few, we happy few, we band of brothers. For he today that sheds his blood with me shall be my brother; be never so vile. This day shall gentle his condition."
Excellent quote (one of my favorite Shakespeare plays actually ) and it is perfect here because Snape does change. He grew as a character from that first moment that Lily was threatened to his last as he gave his final memories to Harry. Snape was not perfect nor was he all that pleasant; however, he gave himself to the cause and tried to undo all the wrong he had done and that shows change to me.


  #788  
Old April 5th, 2008, 3:03 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.7

Excellent post SIP!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SIP
However, I think Snape knew the odds were he wouldn't make it to the end, and he took that risk for Harry.
I personally think that Snapes view of it was that he would give his life to ensure that Lily's sacrifice was not in vain so that Harry would live and he would defeat Voldemort. If doing so killed him - well it was a price he was fully prepared to pay.

This may sound a bit - weird - but he reminds me of St Paul when he said "Whether I live or die it is for Christ. If my deathshould serve Christ so be it, but if I live it is in the service of Christ" (Sorry - that is appalingly paraphrased) Well IMO this is the attitude Snape had; whether it was through his life or his death, he was committed to the cause - to save Harry and bring down Voldemort.


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Even if everyone hates him for it, that's the sacrifice he's making. He's not being the hero. He's being something more.

He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. A dark knight.


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  #789  
Old April 5th, 2008, 3:26 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.7

I must admit I cried a bit when some characters died but I bawled my eyes out the most at Snape's death (and Remus Lupin was my favorite character - or so I think).

Snape had such a horrible childhood and while I don't really know who taught him all this dark arts stuff before he arrived at Hogwarts (as some have said he knew a lot before he arrived) I can only surmise that his mother must have done it because she hated his father so much. But for some reason couldn't defend herself and her son against his bullying - despite the fact he was a mere muggle and she could have modified his mind to make him a nicer person. Then she could be one of the many women who despite the opportunities to leave abusive husbands are unable to do so.

Anyway it seemed Snape had very little - if any - love given to him from birth - unlike Harry who had about 15 months worth. Snape is rather like those baby monkeys who had no contact with a loving person and ended up being socially inept because of it. I could say the same about Tom Riddle too and I wonder what would have happened if they had known any love at all in even the first few months of their childhood.

As I said previously - a little bit (more) of Snape died when Lily did and IMO he was one of the most tragic characters in the book because he never really had anyone to love him unconditionally and therefore never really experienced real love.


  #790  
Old April 5th, 2008, 4:15 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inkling
As I said previously - a little bit (more) of Snape died when Lily did and IMO he was one of the most tragic characters in the book because he never really had anyone to love him unconditionally and therefore never really experienced real love.
I agree with most of what you said, but I do think that Lily loved him unconditionally - she loved him just as he was - even when he was interested in the Dark Arts. She only backed off when his behaviour - calling her a Mudblood and approving of whatever it was Mulciber abd Avery did to Mary McDonald - became unacceptable.


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Even if everyone hates him for it, that's the sacrifice he's making. He's not being the hero. He's being something more.

He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. A dark knight.


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On CoS I'm in On Pottermore I'm in Maple and Unicorn, Thirteen and Three Quarter inches, Pliant

My Fanfic - Snape's Happy Ending


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  #791  
Old April 5th, 2008, 4:37 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.7

Mary McDonald? I'm drawing a complete mental blank there. I can't remember that part at all - right - I'm off to read the books again. This might stop me having so many 'Senior Moments'.

I do love the fact that many think Lily loved Snape unconditionally for who he was when she knew him before Hogwarts I imagine. He changed more because he was in Slytherin so imagine the possibilities of the friendship if they'd both been in Gryffindor.


  #792  
Old April 5th, 2008, 6:06 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.7

I think that Lily stoped loving Snape, but I don't think she stopped caring for him. I think that she may have said that she would never be his friend, but she might have been trying to find a way to bring him to the good side.



Last edited by PureBloodGirl; April 5th, 2008 at 6:08 pm.
  #793  
Old April 5th, 2008, 7:21 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkling7 View Post
Mary McDonald? I'm drawing a complete mental blank there. I can't remember that part at all - right - I'm off to read the books again. This might stop me having so many 'Senior Moments'.
She's mentioned in TPT - the one Snape's friends used dark arts on


  #794  
Old April 5th, 2008, 7:27 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
Wicked, don't be so easily fooled. NATO was created as an alliance with the idea to counterbalance the military power of Russia. It has nothing to do with ideals. And NATO soldiers are getting paid and told where to go and fight, right?
Yoana, I know more about NATO, its origins, its ideal, its goal, its fights, its rationales (including the one you gave for its formation and five more besides), and its efforts and the lawsuits invoving NATO for the last decade - than I ever wanted to. But that is sooooo OT All of that was not my point. Their "written" ideal is the same the Order had. You indicated people would not go to another country and "throw their lives away" but peacekeepers did, NATO troops did also (the individuals could have all gone AWOL because they had no personal stake in it) - being paid and directed has nothing to do with it - the Order members were directed by Dumbledore and may have been given a little money, we don't know. Since many were full time, they may have been given enough to buy food if they needed it. Fighting for Britain (the country of the Order members) in this case was not 'personal' in the way Snape's reason was. The Order members were fighting for everyone - wizards, magical creatures and muggles, both known and unknown to them - so this was not 'personal' in the same sense.

The only point I was making was that people do fight just because it is the right thing to do - and that is not unrealistic, but very real (even if they are mistaken about what is right). I respect your views, but that is realistic and I respectfully disagree with your assertion that it is a boring reason to fight. The Order members were fighting Tyranny and naturally viewpoints vary on whether or not something is tyranical - the DEs didn't think Voldemort was a tyrant, but the Order, Muggles, Muggleborns and Purebloods fighting against them did. We know of course that the Order members were not mistaken about what was right in this case.

Snape's reason was distinct - he turned to the head of the Order for help in order to save Lily - his own personal reason. He joined the cause because Dumbledore told him that he wanted Snape to do something in return for fulfilling his request. And of course, helping Dumbledore to save Lily was something Snape desired to do himself, imo.

Quote:
About Kosovo, I don't think you know what was really going on there.
Believe me, I do and from the socio -economical/humanitarian/international legal viewpoint of 21 countries and the UN. But that was just an example of 1 battle, from 1 viewpoint back in 1999. Just to highlight the idea of what the Order was doing.

Quote:
I would like to say I agree completely with Zara's and Silver Ink Pot's posts from two pages back - about Snape doing all he did just because he was willing to do what he thought was right. It's true there was nothing for him to expect, no prize at the end of it. And I agree about him not doing it in order to be redeemed, because I also believe he didn't think he could be; but just because he felt he had to. That's how I see it.
The topic has changed. I was talking about Snape's initial reason for going to Dumbledore - what he went on to do is a different topic. He went to Dumbledore to save Lily, not to save the world.

However, you indicated in your first post on this topic that a person working for the cause "just because it was right" was boring and unrealistic - now you are saying that is what Snape did ("just because he was willing to do what he thought was right"). Nonetheless, that remains conjecture and appears to be contrary to canon because Snape flat out said that he was doing it all 'for Lily' in DH - TPT. And if his reason was otherwise, he fooled Harry too because Harry told Voldemort that Snape's betrayal (work for Dumbledore) was motivated by his emotions for Lily (DH- Flaw in the Plan).

Quote:
Silver Ink Pot Years went by after that one scene. Years and Years, as well as Lily's death which Snape had to live with for ten years before Harry came to Hogwarts, then seven more years while Harry grew up. Motivation can change over the years.
We were only speaking about the very day that Snape went to Dumbledore. We were not talking about the years that followed - or even the day that followed.


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; April 5th, 2008 at 8:19 pm.
  #795  
Old April 5th, 2008, 7:44 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy View Post
Snape's reason was distinct - he turned to the head of the Order for help in order to save Lily - his own personal reason. He joined the cause because Dumbledore told him that he wanted Snape to do something in return for fulfilling his request. And of course, helping Dumbledore to save Lily was soemthing Snape desired to do himself, imo.
Yes, it was for Lily, that he turned but later he worked for everyone. Lily never benefitted by his turning; it was Harry and countless others in the WW who did IMO.

Quote:
The topic has changed. I was talking about Snape's initial reason for going to Dumbledore - what he went on to do is a different topic. He went to Dumbledore to save Lily, not to save the world.
He went to save Lily, he failed, but he did not go back to the death eaters, instead he stayed and helped Dumbledore save others IMO. I cannot see anything wrong in this or selfish. Snape did not walk away because Lily died; he stayed and fought for the Order and helped Harry win the war IMO.


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  #796  
Old April 5th, 2008, 8:47 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tara_Kedavra View Post
The Marauders tried to Kill Snape for heaven`s sake! I think that gives them the edge don`t you? Whatever Snape did, we know he never crossed that line, and he never deserved the werewolf prank/murder attempt (btw i`m not a rabid Snape fangirl, just saying it as i see it).
James and Sirius hated Snape from the moment they met him on the train, and picked a fight with him, simply because they overheard him mention Slytherin house. Snape wasn`t even talking to them, and they interjected.
I`ll always wonder why JKR made her so called heroes so utterly hateable?
It was only Sirius that tried to kill Snape, not all the Marauders. Peter had nothing to do with it. You can't really blame Remus, he had no control over himself. And James actually risked his life to save Snape. I'm not saying Snape deserved the prank, but he shouldn't have been following the Marauders around.

What makes James and Sirius so "utterly hateable"? I understand if you believe they were jerks when they were 15, but James and Sirius did grow up and join the Order of the Pheonix. How can characerters who fight and die for a worthy cause (James literally died for his wife and child) be "utterly hateable"?. If you are judging a lot of characters by the standard you are judging James and Sirius, then I guess a lot of characters are "utterly hateable."


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  #797  
Old April 5th, 2008, 9:12 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by PerfectDystopia View Post
It was only Sirius that tried to kill Snape, not all the Marauders. Peter had nothing to do with it. You can't really blame Remus, he had no control over himself. And James actually risked his life to save Snape. I'm not saying Snape deserved the prank, but he shouldn't have been following the Marauders around.

What makes James and Sirius so "utterly hateable"? I understand if you believe they were jerks when they were 15, but James and Sirius did grow up and join the Order of the Pheonix. How can characerters who fight and die for a worthy cause (James literally died for his wife and child) be "utterly hateable"?. If you are judging a lot of characters by the standard you are judging James and Sirius, then I guess a lot of characters are "utterly hateable."
Exactly. I don't hate Snape in fact he is one of my favorite charectors, but he shouldn't have been folowing the Marauders around. I'm not saying that he deserved the prank because he diffinitly didn't. James and Sirius and two of the most heroric men in the book. And Sirius actually died in place of Harry because I think Bellatrix tried aiming for Harry and Sirius stood in the way. That's how I see it though.


  #798  
Old April 5th, 2008, 9:34 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.7

Quote:
Originally Posted by PerfectDystopia View Post
It was only Sirius that tried to kill Snape, not all the Marauders.
Correct. But he didn't try hard enough, that is why I think he was not expelled or sent off to Juvenille Azkaban or somewhere similar by Dumbledore. If he really wanted Snape dead, he could have just struck him with an Avada Kedavra. I think Snape realized that too, not that it would make him feel any better about Sirius. In my honest opinion, I don't think Sirius believed Snape would follow his directions because they were enemies after all. But imo, Sirius' also thought, if Snape did follow his directions, the likely outcome would be: Snape turned into a werewolf - he would become the very "dark creature" he hated and hunted to expose (from Sirius' point of view).


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Last edited by wickedwickedboy; April 5th, 2008 at 9:48 pm.
  #799  
Old April 5th, 2008, 9:37 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.7

I really hope this is big enough!

How to have a pleasant conversation on any topic.

REVISED: Character Bashing/Worship: aka Shades of Gray


You all know the rules well enough. There will be no character bashing in Legilimency Studies but I would have thought that including attributes like hateable into this category would go without saying. This is a character analysis thread and definitely not the place to discuss who you like or hate more personally.

I can't emphasise enough how fast following this line of discussion will earn this thread a break!


  #800  
Old April 5th, 2008, 10:18 pm
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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis v.7

I'm back! (posters on thread groan)

I'm not touching the previous argument with a 39 1/2-foot pole. I'd be stoned to death if I did.

Back to Tonk's questions a couple pages ago: Snape's actions vs. Wormtail's.

I would definitely say that Wormtail's actions were worse, for several reasons:
  • Wormtail was quite openly their "friend"
  • He knew all his victims very well and was on their good side
  • He knew exactly who was going to be killed and did it anyway
  • He never felt any remorse for what he did
  • He did not attempt to rectify the situation


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