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  #41  
Old July 4th, 2006, 10:27 pm
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Neville'sgal, I hadn't thought about his returning to Umbridge's office. I'm not sure why he would, nor do I think the Slytherins would hang around there after everyone else had gone--but (putting our ideas together) perhaps Snape was trying to find Harry to yell at him about telling him Sirius was in trouble at the Ministry when he wasn't and, while looking for him, Draco or some of the others told him Harry and Hermione went into the Forest.

I doubt he'd leap from there to thinking they'd gone to the Ministry. He must have tried to see if they were anywhere on campus before taking that step, and that would take time. I doubt that he'd want to send the Order on a wild goose chase, no matter where his loyalties lie. If he's good, he doesn't want to waste their time, and if he's evil he needs the Order's trust to be a spy.


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  #42  
Old July 5th, 2006, 12:21 am
62442al_Man  Male.gif 62442al_Man is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Quote:
Originally Posted by nevillesgal
Snape and Harry have had their ups and downs
Now I wouldn't say that they've had any 'ups' , but I know what you mean. Anyways, to the point....

Snape has done many good things. In fact, other than being nasty and mean towards Harry and other students, he really hasn't done anything 'evil'. Yeah, we think he is pure evil, well some think he is cute, but anyways...you get my point?

He saved Harry in Philosopher's Stone, during the Quidditch match, by stopping Quirrell's spell. Snape has done other things, too, including the one you just mentioned. He has also let his emotions get in the way, and this is a major reason why some think he might be evil. In Chamber of Secrets, he wanted Harry expelled badly. The fact is he hates Harry because he hated his father, James, and Snape is reminded of James through Harry He wants to be done with the Potters. James caused him too much trouble. In Prisoner of Azkaban, Snape let his emotions get in the way again by not seeing the facts. He saw a murderer and a werewolf on top of two of his most hated people. He wasn't going to listen to any reasoning and he wasn't even going to give himself the chance to. He saw a chance to get back at those boys who made fun of him back in school and made his life miserable. I can't think of a major one in Goblet of Fire, other than when Sirius and Snape meet. Snape is almost going to let his emotions get the best of him because he doesn't want to pair up with this man. The one you stated in Order of the Phoenix is the one I think fits as well. He knew what Harry was talking about, he knew what he had to do. He saved everyone, but that was slightly overlooked. Dumbledore mentoned it; he knew what Snape did. So this, and your reasons, help me believe that Snape is good...


  #43  
Old July 5th, 2006, 3:18 am
hwyla  Female.gif hwyla is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

And what faster form of communication COULD Snape have used with all the floo connections being watched by the Ministry? That only left an owl (probably even slower than a patronus, but surely not faster) or Fawkes (who was with Albus).

It was imperative that the message be SECURE - he was telling the Order that Harry MIGHT have gone to the Ministry. It was imperative that the Order KNOW the message was from Snape and not a false message. Additionally - it was only a possibility that Harry MIGHT find a way to London. He couldn't apperate, the floos were closed and his broom was confiscated. It would seem unlikely that Harry could find a way to London. Snape sent the message to be safe and then went to check the forest, which he thought the more likely danger.

Even so, it had to take the kids hours to get to there, even at speeds over 150 mph. The message did not need to be instantaneous, but it did have to be quick. Whatever Snape's patronus was - it WAS relatively quick.

It apparently left AFTER the kids and yet was not far behind them. From the action described, it doesn't seem to me that the kids were fighting on their own for more than 45 mins to an hour. So, I'd say that his message only took about a half hour longer to get there than a thestral did.


  #44  
Old July 5th, 2006, 3:22 am
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Something else I thought of... if Snape found out fairly quickly (I don't mean in seconds mind you but within a few minutes) that Sirius was ok - why not go back to tell Harry this? If Snape had told Harry this, Harry would not have gone. (Unless, of course, he didn't believe Snape.) Still, there isn't this sense of urgency - "He's gone where? Into the forest? Ok" and he takes off to try to catch them so he can give them the message. Perhaps he didn't think Harry would try to go to London on his own, but c'mon. This is the kid who went down the trap door and into the Chamber of Secrets - not to mention under the womping willow and faced 100 dementors before coming face to face with V in the graveyard. Did Snape honestly believe Harry would come tromping back to the castle saying, "oh well"?


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  #45  
Old July 5th, 2006, 4:19 am
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

SnapesAngel2, Mugglebeki, we aren't told that Snape was watching out of windows and saw Harry go to the forest or watched for him to return; the quote from Dumbledore is "When, however, you did not return from your trip into the forest with Dolores Umbridge, Professor Snape grew worried that you still believed Sirius to be a captive of Lord Voldemort's" (OotP p. 830). These are Dumbledore's words, not Snape's. There's no reference to how Snape knew that the kids had gone with Umbridge or that they hadn't come back; both Dumbledore and Harry know that Umbridge was involved and so Dumbledore refers to her in giving Harry a sense of what went on.

WIth the possible exception of Narcissa, I don't think we've ever seen Snape reassure anyone. And one of his default emotional states is to feel put upon, insulted, etc. I think it's perfectly in character for him to feel this way about Harry telling him something about Sirius that he quickly discovered to be untrue. He'd be angry at Harry, not concerned that he might still believe Sirius to be in danger. So he'd mutter around his office for awhile. Maybe he saw Draco and the others and maybe not; I don't know that they'd volunteer the information about Harry, Hermione, and Umbridge heading into the Forest but he might have asked where Harry was so he could go be sarcastic at him. Upon hearing about the Forest, I think he would have gone in after them--but it's a big forest and the person who knows it best--Hagrid--is among the missing teachers and it would take awhile for Snape to convince himself that they were no longer there. Search the castle--nothing. Then he alerts the Order, telling them Harry might be at the MoM. A lot of time has passed, quite aside from however long it would take the Patronus to travel.

I do think it made sense to use secure communications; if Harry was at the MoM without backup, there's no need to clue Voldemort in on that.

As far as what Snape said to Sirius--well, it's not likely that we'll ever know. Dumbledore would have also told Sirius to stay at 12G, although I doubt if Snape expressed it as nicely as Albus would've. In any case, as characters all over OOTP keep saying, Sirius knew the dangers and was never one to avoid them. I think if the Bluebird of Happiness had told Sirius in the gentlest way that Harry was in danger on the dark side of the moon, Sirius would have gone there instantly. His death is not Snape's fault. Sure, he claims some credit in HBP in an effort to make his position appear stronger to Bella--but she's the one who killed him.

As I've said before, I think the strongest argument that Snape did it right is that no one involved--including Harry--questions the timing of Snape's actions at all. Snape spends a lot of time wallowing in his own emotions but doesn't seem aware of others' feelings; I don't think hatred of Harry affected his actions at all that night.

I don't want to sound all Mel Gibson, but I'm starting to wonder if it's coincidence that Dumbledore, McGonnagal, and Hagrid were all gone at this point. That's the Headmaster, the Deputy Headmaster, and the Groundskeeper. Voldemort must have planned with Lucius when he was going to send Harry the vision so that he'd go to the MoM. It was Umbridge's action that got Dumbledore out of Hogwarts earlier and the Death-Eaters went after Hagrid and got McG too (I doubt that they could have predicted her intervention, though). But that really left no one in charge. It would have been quite possible for Harry to take off with no adult knowing and the Order never being warned.

Hwyla--when did you start working at Zonko's?


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WHY DUMBLEDORE TRUSTED SNAPE: PoA 204-5, 285, 361; GoF 588, 590-91; 709-10; OotP 363, 841-3; HBP 549 (American hardbacks). It's not because he said he was remorseful, it's what he did about it.
  #46  
Old July 5th, 2006, 4:34 am
hwyla  Female.gif hwyla is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Off-topic

Shewoman, I AM a bit surprised to find myself a Zonko's employee. I thought myself more mature than that :snort:

Actually, I guess once you pass a certain level of postings and 'graduate' from 7th year, then something 'else' must replace the '7th year' claim. And since I didn't make it up for myself, I guess the moderators or admisnistrators thought Zonko's the best place for me?

I've decided they must think I'm funny or at least witty? (desperately hoping they don't think 'I' am the 'joke). Seriously, I kind of find it 'fun' since I'm not really the kind of person who would have such a frivolous job in reality. But maybe that's just a cover so I can innocently spy on Weasley Wheezes?


  #47  
Old July 5th, 2006, 10:29 am
staniw  Undisclosed.gif staniw is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Quote:
Originally Posted by hwyla
And what faster form of communication COULD Snape have used with all the floo connections being watched by the Ministry? That only left an owl (probably even slower than a patronus, but surely not faster) or Fawkes (who was with Albus).
Itís hard to believe that Harry did know that Umbridgeís floo was safe and Snape didnít. Since Snape knew that Umbridge was in the forest he could have used her floo without danger. But this is only necessary if the speculation that the message sending takes several hours is true, but it canít be true. Snape sends a message to ask if Sirius was abducted. He received answer that he wasnít and only continued to worry when Harry didnít return from the forest. The first message and answer canít have taken hours. It would also be very strange if indeed it took several hours, it would mean that Snape would be sitting in his office doing nothing and not knowing if indeed Voldemort was at the MOM. If Snape thought that Voldemort could be at the MOM he needed to alert Dumbledore at once, he just canít sit several hours waiting for an answer.

There are more things which seem strange. Dumbledore isnít suspicious but neither is Voldemort. Itís hard to believe that Voldemort isnít interested in the question who alerted the order that Harry left for the MoM, unless he knows who did that.

The moment Snape realised that Sirius was safe and Harry was sent a false vision he didnít alert the order, he waited for Harry not to return from the forest. Strange: the moment Snape realised Harryís vision was false he must have wondered why would Voldemort do such a thing. Surely to lure Harry to the MoM. But, even if he presumed Harry was still in the forest, this calls for action from the order. Snape should have alerted the order that there was something up at the MoM, he had all the clues. Just plain stupidity?

The last thing is that it appears that Voldemort planned his vision very well: all the order members had left Hogwarts, giving Harry no one to ask for help (Voldemort assumes Snape is on his side). How did Voldemort know that McGonagall left Hogwarts that very day? Who told him that? Snape seems the only candidate, which shows a different light on his remark that he helped dispose of Sirius Black in spinnerís end.


  #48  
Old July 5th, 2006, 10:51 am
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shewoman
It was Umbridge's action that got Dumbledore out of Hogwarts earlier and the Death-Eaters went after Hagrid and got McG too (I doubt that they could have predicted her intervention, though). But that really left no one in charge. It would have been quite possible for Harry to take off with no adult knowing and the Order never being warned.
Shewoman: Actually it was Umbridge and some Aurors who went after Hagrid and McGonagall, and not DEs. Umbridge calls out the name "Dawlish," which is the same Auror that Fudge brings with him to arrest Dumbledore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by staniw
The last thing is that it appears that Voldemort planned his vision very well: all the order members had left Hogwarts, giving Harry no one to ask for help (Voldemort assumes Snape is on his side). How did Voldemort know that McGonagall left Hogwarts that very day? Who told him that? Snape seems the only candidate, which shows a different light on his remark that he helped dispose of Sirius Black in spinner’s end.
Voldemort knows everything because he has spies at the Ministry and in St. Mungos. Malfoy gave money to St. Mungo's and is seen by Harry at the Ministry of Magic talking to Fudge. Snape doesn't have to tell anyone anything.

And besides, if Snape truly was working for Voldemort, he would have never have alerted the Order, but he did and Dumbledore never questions the timeline, and neither does Lupin, the Weasleys or any other members of the Order.

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Last edited by silver ink pot; July 5th, 2006 at 11:14 am.
  #49  
Old July 5th, 2006, 1:41 pm
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

staniw: Dumbledore tells Harry, "When you gave Professor Snape that cryptic warning, he realized that you had had a vision of SIrius trapped in the bowels of the Department of Mysteries. He, like you, attempted to contact Sirius at once. I should explain that members of the Order of the Phoenix have more reliable means of communicating than the fire in Dolores Umbridge's office. Professor Snape found that Sirius was alive and safe in Grimmauld Place" (Order, "The Lost Prophecy," p. 830. Dumbledore then goes on to discuss Snape's second contact with 12G, at which time the Order went to the MoM.

This does wreak some havoc with my earlier analysis of Snape as angry with Harry for playing a trick on him if he realized Harry had actually had a vision. The fact that he quickly finds out Sirius is at home shows that he took it seriously. It may be that, contrary to what I said earlier, he started looking for Harry at that time to reassure him, but Harry was already in the Forest by then.

Silver Ink Pot: Thanks for correcting me about the Aurors. They're answering to Umbridge, so that could still conceivably be part of a plot to get rid of Hagrid (who might otherwise help Harry).

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WHY DUMBLEDORE TRUSTED SNAPE: PoA 204-5, 285, 361; GoF 588, 590-91; 709-10; OotP 363, 841-3; HBP 549 (American hardbacks). It's not because he said he was remorseful, it's what he did about it.

Last edited by Shewoman; July 5th, 2006 at 3:35 pm.
  #50  
Old July 5th, 2006, 2:50 pm
SinLooWho  Female.gif SinLooWho is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

I had a small thought...we keep considering how long it took for the messages to be sent and what not. I think it should be noted that whenever something like a battle or something is going on, you have people describing it at the end as, it all happened so fast! So, how long were Harry and the others actually fighting before the Order members showed up. A few seconds can be a very long time. Have you never stood waiting for a microwave to do something for 30 seconds or so. When you are flinging spells and running for your life, a lot happens in just 30 second's time.


  #51  
Old July 5th, 2006, 4:48 pm
staniw  Undisclosed.gif staniw is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot
And besides, if Snape truly was working for Voldemort, he would have never have alerted the Order, but he did and Dumbledore never questions the timeline, and neither does Lupin, the Weasleys or any other members of the Order.
And nor does Voldemort. Why not if Snape was not working for Voldemort? The man should be curious who alerted the order. And why did Voldemort order Snape to stay behind? (This is what Snape tells Bella in spinnerís end) What does this mean for Snapeís prior knowledge of Voldemortís plan if he had orders to stay behind? And if Snape knew Voldemort was planning something which required Snape staying behind why didnít he inform the order what was up? How can it be that a whole group of death eaters did know of the plan, including Snapeís friend Lucius Malfoy, yet Snape knew nothing about it? What kind of ineffective spying is this? Why didnít Snape know of Kreacherís visit to Malfoy manor or, if he did know, why didnít he inform Dumbledore?

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver ink pot
Voldemort knows everything because he has spies at the Ministry and in St. Mungos. Malfoy gave money to St. Mungo's and is seen by Harry at the Ministry of Magic talking to Fudge. Snape doesn't have to tell anyone anything.
He may very well have spies in St. Mungos but w are not told about it. It is just speculation which is used to absolve Snape from being the one who told Voldemort about McGonagallís absence. But we do know that Voldemort thinks he has a spy at Hogwarts. Maybe Voldemort, on occasion, expects his spy to actually deliver information. Though Voldemort could have been informed by his spies at St. Mungos I find it unlikely for two reasons: can a spy be sure to be informed about the arrival of a new patient? Why was this or these spies not used to kill Bode? What we know doesnít point to Voldemort being informed by spies at St Mungos.

I still think that the whole end of OOTP is written ambiguously because JKR wants it to be ambiguous; looking for hard clues which supposedly shows Snape allegiance one way or an other is bound to fail.


  #52  
Old July 5th, 2006, 5:03 pm
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

I've suggested that Voldemort may have engineered the timing of Dumbledore's and Hagrid's departures from Hogwarts; since McG was taken out in the attack on Hagrid, I'd assume he knew about that from the Ministry Aurors who support him.

Throughout the series it's been clear that both Dumbledore's people and Voldemort's know Snape is a double agent and--with the exception of Bella--think he's actually true to "their" side. As long as his spying is helpful to them, they understand that he needs to throw the other side a crumb here and there in order to maintain his position in that camp. That could explain why V. ordered Snape to stay behind--if he did--and Voldemort's apparent lack of problem with Snape's Order-alerting--or maybe he did have a problem with that. We the readers haven't SEEN Voldemort since the fight at the MoM and in Spinners End in HBP he's sent Wormtail to Snape, apparently to spy on him (since that's all we see Wormtail doing) and, despite the way Narcissa butters Snape up, it's clear that he's not as high in Voldemort's estimation as he wants her and Bella to think.


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WHY DUMBLEDORE TRUSTED SNAPE: PoA 204-5, 285, 361; GoF 588, 590-91; 709-10; OotP 363, 841-3; HBP 549 (American hardbacks). It's not because he said he was remorseful, it's what he did about it.
  #53  
Old July 5th, 2006, 6:18 pm
HarryForGinny  Male.gif HarryForGinny is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shewoman
We the readers haven't SEEN Voldemort since the fight at the MoM and in Spinners End in HBP he's sent Wormtail to Snape, apparently to spy on him (since that's all we see Wormtail doing) and, despite the way Narcissa butters Snape up, it's clear that he's not as high in Voldemort's estimation as he wants her and Bella to think.
It's off-thread, but I can't see how V could possibly trust Wormtail to successfully spy on someone as skilled as Snape. The reason for W's being at Spinners End is unclear, ast least to me.

Most of my feelings on the thread topic are those in an excellent post by justaHPfan a few days ago. And one of the most interesting things, which several posters have mentioned, is that Harry, in his desperation, knew that he had to trust Snape as his only hope. In turn, Snape did exactly what a "good" Snape would do, despite his totally irrational and despicable loathing of Harry (the entire blame for their mutual hatred is on Snape; go back to their very first encounter in SS/PS).

I think that the theories that Snape was playing both sides of the game this time are just too convoluted to work. How could he know how the battle would turn out? How could he really know that the DEs would be able to wrest the prophecy from Harry, whose abilities and guts he was fully aware of? He could be certain of nothing, and therefore any kind of double-dealing he attempted would be doubly dangerous to himself. On top of that, DD stated that Snape asked Sirius to stay at HQ and wait for DD to arrive, a perfectly sensible thing to do. I don't think Snape would have seen that request as a goad to get Sirius to expose himself, since anyone who knew Sirius would know that he would risk anything if Harry were in danger.


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  #54  
Old July 5th, 2006, 6:58 pm
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Wormtail certainly successfully pulled the wool over James' and Sirius' eyes for a year before the Potters died; Sirius and Remus suspected each other of being the spy, but no one seems to have suspected Wormtail. He is something of a coward and Snape's a more able wizard than he is; I don't think he'd risk spying on him twice in five minutes if someone he feared more hadn't told him to.


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  #55  
Old July 5th, 2006, 7:04 pm
nevillesgal  Female.gif nevillesgal is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shewoman
Neville'sgal, I hadn't thought about his returning to Umbridge's office. I'm not sure why he would, nor do I think the Slytherins would hang around there after everyone else had gone--but (putting our ideas together) perhaps Snape was trying to find Harry to yell at him about telling him Sirius was in trouble at the Ministry when he wasn't and, while looking for him, Draco or some of the others told him Harry and Hermione went into the Forest.

I doubt he'd leap from there to thinking they'd gone to the Ministry. He must have tried to see if they were anywhere on campus before taking that step, and that would take time. I doubt that he'd want to send the Order on a wild goose chase, no matter where his loyalties lie. If he's good, he doesn't want to waste their time, and if he's evil he needs the Order's trust to be a spy.
I've been gone for a while! Anyway, I'm back and caught up with what we're discussing. I think you could be right, and I think mixing our ideas could be a good explanation for the events that led to Snape altering the Order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryForGinny
I think that the theories that Snape was playing both sides of the game this time are just too convoluted to work. How could he know how the battle would turn out? How could he really know that the DEs would be able to wrest the prophecy from Harry, whose abilities and guts he was fully aware of? He could be certain of nothing, and therefore any kind of double-dealing he attempted would be doubly dangerous to himself. On top of that, DD stated that Snape asked Sirius to stay at HQ and wait for DD to arrive, a perfectly sensible thing to do. I don't think Snape would have seen that request as a goad to get Sirius to expose himself, since anyone who knew Sirius would know that he would risk anything if Harry were in danger.
I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or not, but this is why I think Snape is good. To me, personally, he acted good in this instance when he didn't have to. No one would have known he knew about Harry's warning, he could have left it. If Harry happened to survive without the Order (which he wouldn't have, I don't' think) and called Snape on it, Snape could feign ignorance and there would be no way to prove he was lying. Snape's mind would be very hard to read.

I think his explanation to Bella was a way to keep playing the double agent. He had to decide a reason to tell LV why he altered the Order, in case he found out about it. Killing off Sirius Black was a good reason and one that would fit the scenario.

As for DD appointing him to a cursed DADA job, I think this is due to the fact that DD knew about the Unbreakable Vow and he and Snape realised this would be his last year at Hogwarts, at least until the war was over. I think Snape knew what Malfoy's mission was, if not told by LV, I think he used Occlumency (sp?) to read Narcissa's mind. She was upset and vulnerable and wouldn't have been guarding her mind during her visit to Spinners End.


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  #56  
Old July 5th, 2006, 7:48 pm
Snapes_Angel2  Female.gif Snapes_Angel2 is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Quote:
Originally Posted By Shewoman
Wormtail certainly successfully pulled the wool over James' and Sirius' eyes for a year before the Potters died; Sirius and Remus suspected each other of being the spy, but no one seems to have suspected Wormtail. He is something of a coward and Snape's a more able wizard than he is; I don't think he'd risk spying on him twice in five minutes if someone he feared more hadn't told him to.
I agree. Wormtail was able to keep the Potter's, Lupin, and Sirius in the dark about his loyalty to Voldemort, which I don't think he could have done if he didn't have atleast some skill. He may not be as skilled as Snape, but he can get a job done.

Snape mentions that Wormtail had taken up on spying in on his conversations, which immediately caused an alarm to go off in my head. If Wormtail was spyin on him, and Voldemort was the one who placed him at Snapes house than it's obvious that Voldemort had told Wormtail to spy on him. The reasoning could be due to the fact that Snape was the one who alerted the Order about the mayham at the DOM. Maybe Voldemort didn't question Snape about his reasoning for alerting the Order because he knew that Snape would lie to him. So he decided that the best way to get answers would be to have a spy at his house.

Wormtail is a coward, so i don't really think that he volunteered to spy on Snape. He only risked spying on him because Voldemort had asked him to, and everybody knows that if you want to live you don't cross The Dark Lord.


  #57  
Old July 5th, 2006, 9:08 pm
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justaHPfan  Female.gif justaHPfan is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryForGinny
Most of my feelings on the thread topic are those in an excellent post by justaHPfan a few days ago.
Thanks!

For those having trouble with the whole double spy thing and Snape working this to his advantage. The point that at least I was trying to make (can't speak for other posters, ) is that Snape didn't and likely couldn't tip his hand either way in this encounter. If he alerted the Order too early, V would have come down on him and, if he had done nothing, it would have aroused DD's suspicions. It's possible, in my opinion, that Snape's personal feelings towards Harry did influence the outcome because Snape continually tells us (i.e. Harry) that he thinks Harry is mediocre and such. If he truly thinks so, he probably didn't think him able to get to London. Or... he may have said to himself, "I'll tell Potter about Sirius if he comes back to me. I don't have time to babysit him!"

As far as the battle - the battle itself doesn't seem to have gone on for hours and hours before the Order shows up, but it took Harry & co. hours to get to London (they left at sunset and didn't arrive until it was well dark) - they then had to get in the phone booth, get their badges, creep to the right floor, flounder around until they found the hall of prophecy, chat with the DE's and then the running, fighting, hurting began with the Order showing up about 1/2 way to 3/4 of the way through - by the time the Order arrived, only Harry and Neville were standing. So, the question remains - if Snape realized Harry had a vision (a true vision) from V and he knows that Malfoy is no longer in Umbridge's office with Umbridge and Harry & co. in the forest - why did the teens spend most of the night alone? Why did it take so long? Even if Snape is searching the forest forever, wouldn't the centaurs have come out rather quickly to see who else was disturbing things? Even if not - how long does it really take for Snape to search the forest and then the castle for Harry and co? He is a teacher and a gifted wizard. I'm just not sure that he leaped into action on Harry's behalf and didn't stop until he had all the answers.

Other questions - why didn't Snape send a patronus directly to Dumbledore? Dumbledore was due at #12 later so I get that Snape didn't know his exact location - is that necessary? Snape received the message intended for Hagrid from Tonks in book 6.

Snape and Sirius - Snape is sneaky. Asking Sirius to be the one to stay is reasonable, but just the fact that it's coming from Snape after all the previous goading would be enough for Sirius to rebel (he does tend to act first and think later, I know ) - but do you really believe that Snape didn't have some time of gloating gleam in his tone or eyes (if that's seen in a patronus message) when he said it?

Just thoughts... I do think Wormtail is there to keep an eye on Snape so things were definitely heating up for the potions master turned DADA teacher.


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  #58  
Old July 5th, 2006, 9:42 pm
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Quote:
Originally Posted by justaHPfan
if Snape realized Harry had a vision (a true vision) from V and he knows that Malfoy is no longer in Umbridge's office with Umbridge and Harry & co. in the forest - why did the teens spend most of the night alone? Why did it take so long? Even if Snape is searching the forest forever, wouldn't the centaurs have come out rather quickly to see who else was disturbing things? Even if not - how long does it really take for Snape to search the forest and then the castle for Harry and co? He is a teacher and a gifted wizard. I'm just not sure that he leaped into action on Harry's behalf and didn't stop until he had all the answers.
First, the Centaurs had run off with Umbridge, and surely Snape knows the Centaurs have turned against Hogwarts, so he couldn't really ask them anything.

Second, some have surmised that the Ministry was sealed on the outside and had to be broken into by the Order. That isn't in the canon, but it isn't until Voldemort leaves the building at the end that the fireplaces and doors open. We have seen barriers before - in HBP for instance - that only DEs can cross. The whole thing was a trap for Harry and his friends, so of course they got in with ease. Only the guards and everyone else were gone.

I'm sure JKR will answer this "delay" question someday, but I'm absolutely sure it isn't because Snape delayed on purpose.

One more thing - all his Slytherin students had been injured Umbridge's office. Even if they deserved what they got, they still had to be treated by their Head of House as though Snape was on their side, right? He's a spy, right? He's playing a role ~ Dumbledore tells Harry that Snape couldn't be honest in front of Umbridge, and earlier with the Monague incident, Snape lied to Draco about Harry have "Remedial Potions." He's got to be careful, and he was careful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justaHPfan
Other questions - why didn't Snape send a patronus directly to Dumbledore? Dumbledore was due at #12 later so I get that Snape didn't know his exact location - is that necessary? Snape received the message intended for Hagrid from Tonks in book 6.
But Snape was probably waiting outside the school anyway, when he found that Harry didn't arrive with his friends. He does that in every book when Harry is late, such as in CoS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justaHPfan
Snape and Sirius - Snape is sneaky. Asking Sirius to be the one to stay is reasonable, but just the fact that it's coming from Snape after all the previous goading would be enough for Sirius to rebel (he does tend to act first and think later, I know ) - but do you really believe that Snape didn't have some time of gloating gleam in his tone or eyes (if that's seen in a patronus message) when he said it?
It wouldn't matter if Snape sounded as "reasonable" as Dumbledore - nothing could have stopped Sirius once he set his mind to leave the house. It was Dumbledore's order that Sirius discounted, anyway - Snape didn't tell him not to go anywhere, but only to wait for Dumbledore.

And lets not forget whose "sarcasm" led to Kreacher being told to "Get Out" of the House, which led, alas, to the death of Sirius. Sirius had a snarkiness about him too, especially with Kreacher. The Elf was the cause of the whole plan, and not Snape.


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Last edited by silver ink pot; July 5th, 2006 at 9:49 pm.
  #59  
Old July 5th, 2006, 10:00 pm
Shewoman  Female.gif Shewoman is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Good points, Silver Ink Pot. I'd forgotten about Umbridge and the Centaurs, and you're quite right that the centaurs left in the forest [the ones who kicked Firenze out] wouldn't be much help).

Making repairs on the Slytherins would take time. Also, I don't associate Snape with the forest much. I think he was there once with Quirrell in the first book. It could take quite awhile to search a forest one isn't familiar with, particularly at night. And the castle is huge; if he (not having the Marauders Map) searched THAT for Harry, that would take awhile.

Snape might have notified Dumbledore, although if so D doesn't mention it to Harry. But if he didn't, D doesn't seem to think he should have. The main flaw with all these concerns about the timing of Snape's alerting the Order is that none of the people in the story--including Harry, who hates Snape--think it's a problem.


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  #60  
Old July 5th, 2006, 11:27 pm
crazy_ned  Male.gif crazy_ned is offline
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Re: Snape in OOTP

Quote:
Originally Posted by 62442al_Man
Snape has done many good things. In fact, other than being nasty and mean towards Harry and other students, he really hasn't done anything 'evil'.
Except kill Dumbledore.


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