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Can you use Legilimency/Veritaserum to get the secret out of a secret keeper?



 
 
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Old September 1st, 2006, 3:48 am
Hunter  Undisclosed.gif Hunter is offline
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Can you use Legilimency/Veritaserum to get the secret out of a secret keeper?

Can you use Legilimency/Veritersearum to get the secret out of a secret keeper? What do you think?


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Old September 1st, 2006, 3:55 am
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Re: Can you use Legilimency/Veritersearum to get the secret out of a secret keeper?

Hmmmm good question. I don't know....it seems like it would be too easy and a spell that strong might not be broken with a potion or by someone elses mind. If you could, Voldemort probably would have done that to kill James and Lilly....but who knows if you can. Anything's possible with JK!


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Old September 1st, 2006, 4:15 am
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Re: Can you use Legilimency/Veritersearum to get the secret out of a secret keeper?

Veritaserum could probably work IMHO, but Jo has said that it only works when it's unexpected or someone's vulnerable, so it wouldn't be a guarentee.

I'll try and find her quote...


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Old September 1st, 2006, 4:20 am
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Re: Can you use Legilimency/Veritersearum to get the secret out of a secret keeper?

Quote:
Originally Posted by owlpostgirl
Veritaserum could probably work IMHO, but Jo has said that it only works when it's unexpected or someone's vulnerable, so it wouldn't be a guarentee.

I'll try and find her quote...
Ok thanks.... I think Veritaserum might work too... my main question on this one was Legilimency. I wondered if that could be used....


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Last edited by Hunter; September 1st, 2006 at 4:26 am.
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Old September 1st, 2006, 4:31 am
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Re: Can you use Legilimency/Veritersearum to get the secret out of a secret keeper?

Legilimency...I'm more hesitant on.

It seems like the Fidelius Charm is about the willingness of the SK to remain loyal and keep the secret. With veritaserum, it does 'trick' the SK and alter their state of mind, but the secret would still be revealed by the SK willingly...even if it was under a form of duress.

But with Legilimency...it's invading another's thoughts. The secret isn't being revealed in any willing manner by the SK. So in principle, the SK wouldn't be in violation of the Charm. And therefore, perhaps the Charm still holds.

But that's just a guess.

If your still curious about veritaserum, JKR said this about in on her FAQ section when asked about it's use in trials:

JKRVeritaserum works best upon the unsuspecting, the vulnerable and those insufficiently skilled (in one way or another) to protect themselves against it. Barty Crouch had been attacked before the potion was given to him and was still very groggy, otherwise he could have employed a range of measures against the Potion - he might have sealed his own throat and faked a declaration of innocence, transformed the Potion into something else before it touched his lips, or employed Occlumency against its effects. In other words, just like every other kind of magic within the books, Veritaserum is not infallible. As some wizards can prevent themselves being affected, and others cannot, it is an unfair and unreliable tool to use at a trial.


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Old September 1st, 2006, 4:34 am
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Re: Can you use Legilimency/Veritersearum to get the secret out of a secret keeper?

Good question?

I have not a clue.

So many mysteries to this series, my brain hurts merely contemplating it.


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Old September 1st, 2006, 4:53 am
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Re: Can you use Legilimency/Veritersearum to get the secret out of a secret keeper?

If the Fidelius Charm is vulnerable to the effects of Veritaserum, then it might work. Legilimency on the other hand will definitely not.


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Old September 1st, 2006, 4:59 am
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Re: Can you use Legilimency/Veritersearum to get the secret out of a secret keeper?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weirrd_Sister
If the Fidelius Charm is vulnerable to the effects of Veritaserum, then it might work. Legilimency on the other hand will definitely not.
Why do you believe that Legilimency won't be vulenable? I'm not saying your worng, I'm just curious as to how you came to this opionion. Or if you have a fact to back it up that I might have missed.


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Old September 1st, 2006, 5:43 am
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Re: Can you use Legilimency/Veritersearum to get the secret out of a secret keeper?

Veritaserum might work, I don't know about Legimency though, They both might work, because your forcing somebody to tell you the truth.


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Old September 1st, 2006, 5:43 am
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Re: Can you use Legilimency/Veritersearum to get the secret out of a secret keeper?

I don`t think that it wouldn`t be vulnerable to Legilimancy because the SK would then be unwillingly revealing the secret. The SK can only give out the secret of his/her own free will. (Sorry, i don`t have a quote right now, but i think that is right.) With veritaserum, the SK would in fact be revealing the secret willingly....hmm...but now that i think about it, maybe the SK isn`t willingly revealing the secret after all. Because he would be forced to reveal the secret due to the effect of the veritaserum. The SK wouldn`t have chosen to divulge the forbidden information, but would have been forced to....oh sorry if i confused you,I confused my self....


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Old September 1st, 2006, 5:48 am
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Re: Can you use Legilimency/Veritersearum to get the secret out of a secret keeper?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weirrd_Sister
I don`t think that it wouldn`t be vulnerable to Legilimancy because the SK would then be unwillingly revealing the secret. The SK can only give out the secret of his/her own free will. (Sorry, i don`t have a quote right now, but i think that is right.) With veritaserum, the SK would in fact be revealing the secret willingly....hmm...but now that i think about it, maybe the SK isn`t willingly revealing the secret after all. Because he would be forced to reveal the secret due to the effect of the veritaserum. The SK wouldn`t have chosen to divulge the forbidden information, but would have been forced to....oh sorry if i confused you,I confused my self....
It's ok I was just trying to understand where you got that point of veiw from


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  #12  
Old September 1st, 2006, 6:04 am
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Re: Can you use Legilimency/Veritersearum to get the secret out of a secret keeper?

I think that they would not work.

A Secret Keeper has to be willing to reveal that secret. Both these enchantments negate this.


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Old September 1st, 2006, 6:42 am
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Re: Can you use Legilimency/Veritersearum to get the secret out of a secret keeper?

I think that the secert keeper has to tell them, and for protection I think it has to be of their own free will, or what good would it be.


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Old September 1st, 2006, 7:19 am
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Re: Can you use Legilimency/Veritersearum to get the secret out of a secret keeper?

I'm pretty sure that the only way you can get the location out of a secret keeper is if they willingly tell you, not under the influence of legimency or veritersearum. Maybe if it was tortured
out of them...?


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Old September 1st, 2006, 3:11 pm
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Re: Can you use Legilimency/Veritersearum to get the secret out of a secret keeper?

This is a quote by JK Rowling from the HP Lexicon. It is indicated to be from JK Rowling's web site and is in full in the FAQ Poll section of the site.

Quote:
"Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force-fed Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been able to give away the whereabouts of the other two."
Although legilimency is not mentioned directly I would imagine that it would not be possible if imperius isn't.


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Old September 1st, 2006, 3:23 pm
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Re: Can you use Legilimency/Veritersearum to get the secret out of a secret keeper?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter
Why do you believe that Legilimency won't be vulenable? I'm not saying your worng, I'm just curious as to how you came to this opionion. Or if you have a fact to back it up that I might have missed.
I could contribute to this. I think that if Legilimency worked, Voldemort, who is as good a Legilimens than Dumbledore is an Occlumens, would have found out in the ministry, as he would have been able to perform Legilimency when Voldemort and DUmbledore were talking. I think anyway. And if Legilimency worked, you would be able to find out from anyone who knew, if they were thinking about it. So Voldemort, or Bellatrix, would have been able to get the place from Snape, when he said to Bellatrix that he could not speak the name of the Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix. DO you understand what I am saying or am I babbling???


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Old September 1st, 2006, 3:33 pm
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Re: Can you use Legilimency/Veritersearum to get the secret out of a secret keeper?

I do not think that either one would work for the sole statement "chooses to divulge it". If legilimency or veritaserum were used on the secret keeper, that would exactly be "choosing to divulge". It would be forcing to divulge. So therefore neither would work.


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Old September 1st, 2006, 3:38 pm
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Re: Can you use Legilimency/Veritersearum to get the secret out of a secret keeper?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LouisaB
This is a quote by JK Rowling from the HP Lexicon. It is indicated to be from JK Rowling's web site and is in full in the FAQ Poll section of the site.


Quote:
"Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force-fed Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been able to give away the whereabouts of the other two."


Although legilimency is not mentioned directly I would imagine that it would not be possible if imperius isn't.
But the Potter's were not the Secret Keepers, so I don't believe what Jo said really applies here. I personally don't think the Veritaserum would work, but I think that legilimency just might. Legilimency isn't something that it seems all wizards can do. I believe it to be a more advanced pwer, and possibly one that could break a charm like this.


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Old September 1st, 2006, 3:47 pm
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Re: Can you use Legilimency/Veritersearum to get the secret out of a secret keeper?

Here is what JKR said about Veritaserum on her Official Site:
http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en...iew.cfm?id=105

And here is what she wrote about Secret Keepers:

http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/faq_poll.cfm

JKR's Official Site: FAQ Poll Answer

Result of F.A.Q. Poll

(SPOILER WARNING)

What happens to a secret when the Secret-Keeper dies?


I was surprised that this question won, because it is not the one that I'd have voted for… but hey, if this is what you want to know, this is what you want to know!

When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else.

Just in case you have forgotten exactly how the Fidelius Charm works, it is

"an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it" (Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)

In other words, a secret (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else – not even the subjects of the secret themselves – can divulge the secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information.


I don't think Legillimency would work to overturn the Fidelius Charm. If it could happen, Dumbledore wouldn't have let Snape into Grimmauld Place because it would have been too risky, even though he is an Occlumens.

I don't believe that Voldemort got the Potter's location from doing Legillimency on Peter, because that would take the element of "choice" out of the story, and I believe Peter made a conscious "choice" to divulge their location.


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Last edited by silver ink pot; September 1st, 2006 at 3:49 pm.
  #20  
Old September 1st, 2006, 3:49 pm
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Re: Can you use Legilimency/Veritersearum to get the secret out of a secret keeper?

ETA - sorry looks like SIP beat me to it.

Sorry I guess I pasted the wrong quote there. My bad. Here is the entire page from the site.

The question was what happens to a secret when the secret keeper dies. JK Rowling covers the charm in some detail. The bold is my addition.

Quote:
When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else.

Just in case you have forgotten exactly how the Fidelius Charm works, it is

"an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it" (Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban)

In other words, a secret (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else – not even the subjects of the secret themselves – can divulge the secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information.


 
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