Discussion: The Horcruxes

[mirrormere]

Originally Posted by willfitz

From what I recall, the ingredients were being given the choice to live (by the killer), and choosing to die anyway specifically to protect someone else.

Harry wasn’t given a choice when confronted by LV in the Forest. His choice was going into the Forest in the first place. Snape was in the same situation. He knew it was very likely he would be killed by returning to Voldemort.

Originally Posted by willfitz

I think that this is less than clear-cut in Snape's case.

Yes, because there is so much we don’t know that went on in that confrontation that could alter qualification. But what we do know indicates a potential for the same protection to be invoked.

Originally Posted by willfitz

First off, his actions were motivated by Lily first and foremost, and Harry less directly.

Harry earned protection for those who were not his immediate concern. He earned protection for those he didn’t even know.

Originally Posted by willfitz

If he were to die for anyone, it would be for Lily, in my opinion.

Lily was already dead. Snape was specifically and actively engaged in protecting Harry.

Originally Posted by willfitz

Secondly, if Voldemort was going to kill him, he would give him no choice.

See above.

[Peakes]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

Harry wasn’t given a choice when confronted by LV in the Forest. His choice was going into the Forest in the first place. Snape was in the same situation. He knew it was very likely he would be killed by returning to Voldemort.

The choice was in accepting that and not attempting to fight Voldemort. Just as Lily chose to stand her ground, she had no way of defending herself but did it anyway.

King's Cross "But I should have died - I didn't defend myself! I meant to let him kill me!" "And that," said Dumbledore, "will, I think, have made all the difference."

Snape didn't die to protect Harry, he lived for it. If he had been able, he would have attempted to defend himself against Voldemort. In this, he was not so dissimilar to James (now, that's what you call ironic).

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by Peakes

I was always under the impression that was Karkaroff...?

Karkaroff was the coward because he'd already run off and apparently Voldemort knew this.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by mirrormere

Harry wasn’t given a choice when confronted by LV in the Forest. His choice was going into the Forest in the first place. Snape was in the same situation. He knew it was very likely he would be killed by returning to Voldemort.

Here is the quote from JKR on the matter:

Leaky Cauldron/Mugglenet Interview JKR: [silence] Can't tell you. But he did offer, you're absolutely right. Don't you want to ask me why James's death didn't protect Lily and Harry? There’s your answer, you've just answered your own question, because she could have lived and chose to die. James was going to be killed anyway. Do you see what I mean? I’m not saying James wasn't ready to; he died trying to protect his family but he was going to be murdered anyway. He had no - he wasn't given a choice, so he rushed into it in a kind of animal way, I think there are distinctions in courage. James was immensely brave. But the caliber of Lily's bravery was, I think in this instance, higher because she could have saved herself. Now any mother, any normal mother would have done what Lily did. So in that sense her courage too was of an animal quality but she was given time to choose. James wasn't. It's like an intruder entering your house, isn't it? You would instinctively rush them. But if in cold blood you were told, "Get out of the way," you know, what would you do? I mean, I don't think any mother would stand aside from their child. But does that answer it? She did very consciously lay down her life. She had a clear choice - ES: And James didn't. JKR: Did he clearly die to try and protect Harry specifically given a clear choice? No. It's a subtle distinction and there's slightly more to it than that but that's most of the answer.

Harry was given a choice to come and face his death willingly, or to watch as all those around him died for him. His walk into the forest was his sacrifice, as proven by the protection he invoked.

Yes, because there is so much we don’t know that went on in that confrontation that could alter qualification. But what we do know indicates a potential for the same protection to be invoked.

I think Peakes nailed it on the head. There is no real way that Snape's choice to die could ever benefit Harry, that I can see anyway. He could put himself in danger to help him, and he indeed did, but he was never being offered a choice to live or to die. His death would in fact have been a tremendous hindrance to Dumbledore and Harry.

Harry earned protection for those who were not his immediate concern. He earned protection for those he didn’t even know.

Harry chose to die to save all of them. He was not merely in it for his friends.

Lily was already dead. Snape was specifically and actively engaged in protecting Harry.

the Prince's Tale "For him?" shouted Snape. "Expecto Patronum!" From the tip of his wand burst the silver doe. She landed on the office floor, bounded once across the office, and soared out of the window. Dumbledore watched her fly away, and as her silvery glow faded he turned back to Snape, and his eyes were full of tears. "After all this time?" "Always," said Snape.

[RegulusBlackFan]

This thread may seem quite complicated, but do you think that everybody who 'deserved' to destroy a horcrux had the honour of doing so? For example, I think that Harry, DD, Ron and Hermione certainly deserved to be the ones to destroy a horcrux each however I think that the diadem should have been taken by someone other than Crabbe. I also think its a shame that kreacher at least didn't get to destroy one, after all he had been through with the locket.

What do you think?

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by RegulusBlackFan

This thread may seem quite complicated, but do you think that everybody who 'deserved' to destroy a horcrux had the honour of doing so? For example, I think that Harry, DD, Ron and Hermione certainly deserved to be the ones to destroy a horcrux each however I think that the diadem should have been taken by someone other than Crabbe. I also think its a shame that kreacher at least didn't get to destroy one, after all he had been through with the locket.

What do you think?

I don't think "deserved" comes into it as a lot of characters did not get what they deserved. And if we're to go into people who "deserved" to destroy one of Voldemort's horcruxes, there would not be enough horcruxes for each of them.

I think it would have involved quite a lot of rejigging to have Kreacher destroy a horcrux - how would he be involved in the horcrux hunt? Should Harry have called on him for the honour of destroying a horcrux? Somehow, I think the priority was to destroy the horcrux, not take time fetching someone else to do it.

As for Crabbe, perhaps there was some irony in that -impaled on his own sword, helping to defeat the murderous master he wanted to impress.

[Goddess_Clio]

Originally Posted by RegulusBlackFan

This thread may seem quite complicated, but do you think that everybody who 'deserved' to destroy a horcrux had the honour of doing so? For example, I think that Harry, DD, Ron and Hermione certainly deserved to be the ones to destroy a horcrux each however I think that the diadem should have been taken by someone other than Crabbe. I also think its a shame that kreacher at least didn't get to destroy one, after all he had been through with the locket.

You're forgetting Neville, who destroyed Naginicrux.

[RegulusBlackFan]

Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio

You're forgetting Neville, who destroyed Naginicrux.

I basically mean who do you think should have had the honour of destroying a horcrux.

[willfitz]

Let's not forget that after their attempted escape from the Ministry went awry, Harry was afraid to call upon Kreacher in case the Death Eaters were planning on using him to apparate them to his location.

[LeviathanMammal]

"Deserving" doesn't come into it at all. The Horcruxes aren't some kind of grand prize to be doled out to the worthy; they're abominations that had to be destroyed by hook or by crook. If Umbridge had destroyed all seven of them in-between beating puppies to death, then good for her.

[FurryDice]

Originally Posted by LeviathanMammal

"Deserving" doesn't come into it at all. The Horcruxes aren't some kind of grand prize to be doled out to the worthy; they're abominations that had to be destroyed by hook or by crook. If Umbridge had destroyed all seven of them in-between beating puppies to death, then good for her.

I agree. Destroying the horcruxes was about stopping Voldemort. Not about favourite characters getting a shining moment. Sure, it was an honour and a big responsibility for those who did destroy a horcrux, but it wasn't about deserving. If it was about deserving, there would be a long, long list of people who should destroy a horcrux. Anyone who had ever suffered because of Voldemort and his thugs, for example.
And it seems to me that "deserving" did not come into a lot of things in the series. Innocent people suffered; evildoers got away with their crimes. IMO, that's keeping a sense of reality, which is needed even in a fantasy setting, because the characters are very human, and their society is a very human one, so yes, there is going to be a lot of situations where people don't get what they "deserve".

[RegulusBlackFan]

If Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle hadn't come and tried to capture Harry, who do you think would have stabbed the diadem and how easy do you think it would have been?

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by RegulusBlackFan

If Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle hadn't come and tried to capture Harry, who do you think would have stabbed the diadem and how easy do you think it would have been?

I think that it probably would have been Harry, and I think it would have been easy. The diadem had had no time at all to become close to any of them, and thus wouldn't have gained any strength from feeding off of them. At any rate it wouldn't have posed any more of a challenge than the cup.

[RegulusBlackFan]

Questions:

1. What did you think of Umbridge having Slytherin's locket?
It provided our heroes with a great opportunity to get back at Umbridge. It also gave them a perfect opportunity to see what the new ministry was like and save many muggleborns from it's clutches.

2. What did you think of the destruction methods for each Horcrux? Was the sword of Godric Gryffindor overused for that purpose?
I thought it was cool that Gryffindor had the honour of his sword being used to destroy Voldemort's abominations, including the locket belonging to his rival. It was a nice idea of JK Rowling's that they use basilisk fangs. I personally believe that the fiendfire was nice except for the fact that it wasn't one of our heroes who did it.

3. Were you surprised at how many different people destroyed Horcruxes?
I wasn't really, after learning that Dumbledore had vanquished the ring, it was possible for anyone to do it. Also JK Rowling had already brought about the concept that it wasn't just Harry who would contribute to Voldemort's defeat earlier in the series, a notable example being the battle of the Department of Mysteries. So yes I believed that other people would also contribute to the Horcrux hunt. I was also surprised that Harry didn't tell more people actually.

In terms of what I liked/didn't like about it was that I hoped that Kreacher would at least get to do as he had always wanted/Regulus wanted to do, destroy a Horcrux. That didn't happen.

4. Were the Horcruxes in places you expected them to be?
No not really. I certainly didn't expect the diadem to be under the same roof as Dumbledore's office. At first I expected all of them (other than Nagini) to be in purpose built defenses, just like the cave.
5. Did it surprise you how easy it was for Hermione to get the book about Horcruxes?
Yep, I couldn't believe that books on Horcruxes were so easy to find.

Originally Posted by willfitz

I think that it probably would have been Harry, and I think it would have been easy. The diadem had had no time at all to become close to any of them, and thus wouldn't have gained any strength from feeding off of them. At any rate it wouldn't have posed any more of a challenge than the cup.

Why do you think it would have been Harry?

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by RegulusBlackFan

Why do you think it would have been Harry?

I think it was a time where Harry was taking a great deal of responsibility onto himself. He was also the least recent of the trio to destroy one. This is assuming that there were no other circumstances arising which would make it more convenient for another of the trio. I feel that Harry would ask for a fang, and would take it upon himself to stab it and get it over with so they could move on.

[RegulusBlackFan]

Would the Horcrux hunt have been much easier if it hadn't been for Regulus?

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by RegulusBlackFan

Would the Horcrux hunt have been much easier if it hadn't been for Regulus?

Yes, I think so, but it might have taken longer. The thing that really got the ball rolling for Harry was their capture and the things they learned at Malfoy Manor. If they had been able to destroy the locket without the Ministry infiltration, they would have been able to stay at Grimmauld Place, which was much safer and easier, and they may never have needed to wear the locket, but they would have needed other ways to come up with the information which led them to the cup. That process might have required years if they hadn't gotten themselves into the situations which they did.

[TheShley]

1. What did you think of Umbridge having Slytherin's locket?
If I remember correctly, I think it may have annoyed me slightly. I mean, why would she have it, really? But, I guess it worked out in the end...

2. What did you think of the destruction methods for each Horcrux? Was the sword of Godric Gryffindor overused for that purpose?
I don't think the sword was overused at all. Especially not in DH. I thought the best destruction was the Locket. I think it was very important to Ron's character development. I was a bit disappointed that we dont get to see Hermione destroy the cup though.

3. Were you surprised at how many different people destroyed Horcruxes?
Not at all. I adored that Neville off'd Nagini, and though Harry was a very important part of the war against Voldemort, it wasn't only his war. A lot of people had sacrificed a lot, and had worked hard to end Voldemort and should be rewarded with the pleasure of helping in his destruction. Especially Ron and Hermione, who had been with Harry from day one.

4. Were the Horcruxes in places you expected them to be?
I think I knew one was at Hogwarts, and that it was on top of the bust. Though Umbridge was not the location I would have guessed for the Locket, nor the LeStranges vault for the cup.

5. Did it surprise you how easy it was for Hermione to get the book about Horcruxes?
Not really. I guess it may have been slightly out of character for Hermione to steal from Dumbledore. Hermione had never heard of Horcruxes until Harry told her about them, which seems strange, as she knows everything. So, I'm guessing that Horcruxes aren't really public knowledge so it's not like Dumbledore would have taken extra precautions to ensure the books never left his office. He probably just hid them somewhere in his office, so therefore accio would work. Also, Fred and Georges brooms were locked up by Umbridge and they managed to accio! them when they left Hogwarts in OotP... I can't imagine Umbridge not using magical means to protect the confiscated brooms...

[xhanax315]

Because I've never posted my opinions on the horcruxes, I always thought it better to keep quiet....


1. What did you think of Umbridge having Slytherin's locket?
I recall being extremely angered by this, simply because she was using it to strength her claim for being a pure blood. I wonder whether she knew whose it really was, not necessarily knowing what it was. I did enjoy the fact that the trio were able to break into the Ministry to get it, and see first hand how the wizarding world had changed from the inside.

2. What did you think of the destruction methods for each Horcrux? Was the sword of Godric Gryffindor overused for that purpose?
I don't think the sword was overused at all, we knew the strength it carried and the fact that it was destroying parts of Slytherin's heir really made it sifnificant. I was disappointed in the fact that Hermione and Ron just managed to rush down into the chamber and destroy *** cup, that felt too easy and rushed. I know that we've seen a lot more of Hermione's character than Ron, but I'd have like to have seen how Voldemort's soul affected her as well. I was astounded by the scene in which Harry and Ron destroy the locket, we knew all these buried feelings existed within Ron for so long, but to finally see it first hand was overpowering. The events in the Come and Go Room was frightening, and I'm glad the trio made it out in the end. As for Neville bringing down Nagini was really well played.

3. Were you surprised at how many different people destroyed Horcruxes?
No, I quite like that the fact that Harry accepted help in the end with this burden.

[b]4. Were the Horcruxes in places you expected them to be?[b]
I had an inkling from the chapter in which Dumbledore shows Harry of Tom Riddle asking for a job at Hogwarts that one would reside there, and I think it was when Ginny and Harry were there to hide the potions book that confirmed it, I just hadn't realized it was the diadem. I hadn't expected Unbridge to have the locket or the cup to reside in Gringotts. And Nagini, well...

5. Did it surprise you how easy it was for Hermione to get the book about Horcruxes?
Yes. At first I didn't believe it, I had to read that part a couple times for it to sink in.

Originally Posted by RegulusBlackFan

Would the Horcrux hunt have been much easier if it hadn't been for Regulus?

I suppose, the events wouldn't have occurred in the Ministry anyhow.

[MrSleepyHead]

Originally Posted by xhanax315

[b]4. Were the Horcruxes in places you expected them to be?[b]
I had an inkling from the chapter in which Dumbledore shows Harry of Tom Riddle asking for a job at Hogwarts that one would reside there, and I think it was when Ginny and Harry were there to hide the potions book that confirmed it, I just hadn't realized it was the diadem.

In lieu of the forums closing I looked back at the "ARE YOU A SEER" predictions thread, pre-DH, and I noticed that I was apparently vehemently opposed to the idea of the tiara being the something of Ravenclaw's. Largely, I think this was denial: it seemed to convenient and too easily guessed (much like R.A.B. being Regulus Black - though the likelihood of this seemed all but certain). I guess my prediction was based more upon what I had hoped, rather than what I expected.

For some reason, I never thought much about Hogwarts being a location for a Horcrux: I expected Harry to return, but I put too much faith in Dumbledore's outline (which seemed to exclude Hogwarts as a possibility).

I was very excited by the idea of Hufflepuff's Cup being buried in the countryside where Tom learned he could talk to snakes: the connection (Hufflepuff-earth-significant place for Tom) seemed perfect. But I guess being hidden underground in Gringotts still fulfills that earthy Hufflepuff connection.

I also noticed in my predictions that "There will be a Horcrux at Godric's Hollow (or near it - if Harry will go to Godric's Hollow, and not find a Horcrux, it is a complete waste of precious time)." (Boy, I was pretty self-assured! .) Upon reflection, I realized that I wasn't wrong, per se: Nagini was stationed at Godric's Hollow! Of course, I predicted Nagini to be at the Riddle House, so...