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  #81  
Old July 24th, 2007, 9:02 pm
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Re: Discussion: The Horcruxes

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Originally Posted by Weasleytwin View Post
On another note, what object do you think Voldemort intended to be the last Horcrux? He had already made the diary, the ring, the locket, the cup, and the tiara into horcruxes. He probably didn't have Nagini at the time - so what exactly was the final horcrux supposed to be? Did he find a Gryffindor object?
That's been bugging me. I assumed there was a relic to be used that night to make the Horcrux, but Dumbledore says in DH that the sword is the only known relic of Gryffindor. So now I don't know...


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  #82  
Old July 24th, 2007, 9:03 pm
Lord_V  Male.gif Lord_V is offline
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Re: Discussion: The Horcruxes

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Originally Posted by Weasleytwin View Post
However, since killing rips the soul apart (and Voldemort's soul was already in pretty bad shape), his soul tore when he cast the AK curse, intending to kill Harry. At this point, we now have two disembodied parts of Voldemort's soul, since the AK curse killed the body. One part (the part that became Vapormort) glided away and hid in Albania. The other part (the part that Voldemort had planned to put into an object to make a horcrux) went into Harry instead. I'm not really sure why that part went into Harry - and why it didn't just go flying off, like the Vapormort portion did.
But he didn't kill Harry, so his soul wouldn't have split did it? And he didn't kill himself and split his soul that way, because as you correctly explained, he couldn't die that way because he had already made several horcruxes?

Quote:
Your question was why these two pieces of soul were not destroyed, despite the evidence in the Dark Arts book that says that the soul cannot exist without the object. Well, if it is not in an object, it can't be destroyed, right? And it couldn't go on to the afterlife because there were still other parts of it that were in horcruxes. That's why creating horcruxes is such a problem! I think that the 'tied to an object' quote only refers to pieces of the soul that have been turned into horcruxes. The final piece of Voldemort's soul (Vapormort) existed on its own without being tied to a body or an object.
Get the point thanks


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  #83  
Old July 24th, 2007, 9:14 pm
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Re: Discussion: The Horcruxes

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Originally Posted by Lord_V View Post
But he didn't kill Harry, so his soul wouldn't have split did it? And he didn't kill himself and split his soul that way, because as you correctly explained, he couldn't die that way because he had already made several horcruxes?
Good question. But is it the murder that splits the soul, or the intent to murder? Slughorn isn't really clear about that in HBP, but I'd imagine that the intention to kill is what splits the soul, especially since he went as far as to cast the AK curse. Good question - it raises a good debate - but I'd have to say that morally speaking, the intent to murder is as bad as the physical act, so that's probably what splits the soul.
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Originally Posted by tigger101023
That's been bugging me. I assumed there was a relic to be used that night to make the Horcrux, but Dumbledore says in DH that the sword is the only known relic of Gryffindor. So now I don't know...
The Sorting Hat belonged to Gryffindor as well, but I doubt that Voldemort got ahold of that, either.


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  #84  
Old July 24th, 2007, 9:15 pm
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Re: Discussion: The Horcruxes

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But he didn't kill Harry, so his soul wouldn't have split did it? And he didn't kill himself and split his soul that way, because as you correctly explained, he couldn't die that way because he had already made several horcruxes?
Right, he didn't kill Harry but he was intending to and what's more important, as Weasleytwin mentioned, Harry's murder was going to be a horcrux murder. So the intention and the force of the rebounded curse split him. Also, I just remembered that the piece of soul left in Voldemort's body at this point is like 1/24th of the original one so it's not really that strong.


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  #85  
Old July 24th, 2007, 9:19 pm
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Re: Discussion: The Horcruxes

The book itself was annoying. I can't believe that's all it took for Voldemort to uncover the "dark secret."

I mean the book Hermione summoned from Dumbledore's office.



Last edited by sapere_aude; July 24th, 2007 at 10:50 pm.
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  #86  
Old July 24th, 2007, 9:24 pm
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Re: Discussion: The Horcruxes

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Originally Posted by Weasleytwin View Post
Good question. But is it the murder that splits the soul, or the intent to murder? Slughorn isn't really clear about that in HBP, but I'd imagine that the intention to kill is what splits the soul, especially since he went as far as to cast the AK curse. Good question - it raises a good debate - but I'd have to say that morally speaking, the intent to murder is as bad as the physical act, so that's probably what splits the soul.
That is definitely true.
And although I don't (want to ) think the intention to kill splits the soul, because it would be a bit cheesy if it did IMO, it's probably that that splits it.


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  #87  
Old July 24th, 2007, 9:30 pm
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Re: Discussion: The Horcruxes

Lord_V, I see why you think it would be cheesy for intention to split the soul, but I'm definately talking about serious intention - not 'Grrr...I'm going to kill him for being late!'

To go as far as to cast a curse that will kill the person that it hits...yes, I think the soul is split prior to the curse actually hitting the person. What an interesting topic, though! Perhaps the soul is split when the AK curse is cast?


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  #88  
Old July 24th, 2007, 9:38 pm
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Re: Discussion: The Horcruxes

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Originally Posted by Weasleytwin View Post
Lord_V, I see why you think it would be cheesy for intention to split the soul, but I'm definately talking about serious intention - not 'Grrr...I'm going to kill him for being late!'
It would overcrowd the world, nobody dying because they thought this

Quote:
To go as far as to cast a curse that will kill the person that it hits...yes, I think the soul is split prior to the curse actually hitting the person. What an interesting topic, though! Perhaps the soul is split when the AK curse is cast?
But it doesn't always split your soul I think. Otherwise Miss. Weasley would've split her soul too, as well as many others.

I think it's some sort of spell you must cast before or after (discuss, discuss!) you kill someone to create a horcrux.
And it could be argued by saying Everybody who kills splits their soul, but with the most people it stays in his/her body so that you have a complete soul again..



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  #89  
Old July 24th, 2007, 9:40 pm
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Re: Discussion: The Horcruxes

I thought apart from the cave, the other places where the horcrux were hidden, were very amateur. I mean it didn't take a lot of thinking did it? And hiding it in Bella's vault? Seriously, didn't he learn his lesson with Lucius? And I thought where he found the diadem of Ravenclaw was the place he should have hid it, but he hid in hogwarts without any intention of putting extra spells over the object itself. I, for one, was disappointed with the horcrux locations.


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  #90  
Old July 24th, 2007, 9:43 pm
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Re: Discussion: The Horcruxes

1
I thought that it was only right that Umbridge of all people have the locket because, we all needed to see Umbridge get what she had coming to her, and that was a good load of jinxes. I though it was an excellent plot twist, giving us even more reason to hate her, and justifying the torture of her even more.

2
I don't think that the sword was overused. It was used twice in this book with the locket and the snake, Dumbledore used it to crack the ring but that was forever ago. I think that the whole rule about only a true Gryffindor can draw the sword deffinently played a part in Neville getting the recognition he deserved, I think he wholly deserved the right to destroy the last Horocrux, and the use of the sword was only more glorifying. But I've always had a soft spot for Neville, I knew he would get his time in the spotlight, he just needed the oppportunity, that opportunity just so happened to be Voldemort shoving the sorting hat on Neville's head then setting it on fire.

3
Like I said earlier, I think Rowling did well in making it so that more than one person had a place in bringing down the dark lord. So many people were hurt by him, plus it only gives us a stronger sense of unity in the order, or the goodside or the side not supporting voldemort, because everyone has been hurt by him. It felt right that everyone had to use their talents to bring the nasty man down.

4.
I expected Voldemort to keep at least one on him the entire time, and it was obvious that Volemort would leave one at Hogwarts, the vault in Gringotts was unexpected but it didn't nessescarily surprise me. The only one that I didn't quite get was the cave, I mean it made complete sense but I just didn't like the idea for some reason, surely Voldemort had done something more pleasurable to him than torturing kids? But the cave was safe so I understand that. I though however that him placing the ring at the Gaunt shack was just 'asking for it' same goes for giving the diary to Malfoy, 'stupid'
And early on the suggestion that Harry was a Horocrux was dismissed because Dumbledore had almost assured Harry that there were only six was instilled in all our minds. I had almost forgotten that possibility, then it just came and hit me like a hurricane. I was pleasantly surprised. But the sacrifice Harry was willing to make only seemed appropriate to end the book, then his 'rise from the dead' was incredibly glorifying.
I definently appreciated the fact that Harry was the 'unknown' Horocrux. It was immensly appropriate.

5.
I wasn't surprised, there were so many more important things to do than find books. Plus, Dumbledore knew the kids would be coming after them. So no I wasn't surprised

Sorry about the length, I just had my coffee


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  #91  
Old July 24th, 2007, 9:48 pm
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Re: Discussion: The Horcruxes

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Originally Posted by Lord_V View Post
I think it's some sort of spell you must cast before or after (discuss, discuss!) you kill someone to create a horcrux.
And it could be argued by saying Everybody who kills splits their soul, but with the most people it stays in his/her body so that you have a complete soul again..

Yes, exactly; I think Dumbledore said that any murder damages the soul, and that someone with the right knowledge can take advantage of that damage to actually rip off a piece of thier soul. Otherwise, your soul is a little tattered, but otherwise whole; I'd think too, that in someone like Molly's case, that tear could and would eventually heal.


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  #92  
Old July 24th, 2007, 9:52 pm
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Re: Discussion: The Horcruxes

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And it could be argued by saying Everybody who kills splits their soul, but with the most people it stays in his/her body so that you have a complete soul again..

I'm actually pretty confident about what I'm about to say. Doesn't the book about horcruxes say that it takes extreme remorse (very painful) to put the soul back together?

Here's my view: killing tears the soul. There's no way around that, except perhaps if you kill someone in self-defense. The reason why I think this is because Slughorn explains that those who make horcruxes take advantage of this rip in order to put the other part into on object. I apologize - I don't have the book with me to quote directly. So killing tears the soul, but unless you intend to make a horcrux, the second part of your soul remains in your body. According to the information about remorse, the soul can be repaired if the person repents. This must be how people who don't make horcruxes repair their souls. Of course it is painful...remorse is emotionally painful. So I do think that everyone who kills tears their soul. Using Molly as an example, yes, she tore her soul. Being a good person, however, Molly WILL feel remorse. She won't necessarily regret killing Bellatrix in particular, but she'll feel terrible that she had to kill someone. I imagine that will repair the soul. Who knows, though? I could be way off...

As for how a horcrux is made, I've always thought that the spell must be performed immediately after the murder, when the soul has been torn. I always assumed that there was some process that must take place in order to extract the torn piece of soul from the body itself - otherwise, where would it go? In the Voldemort/Harry case, neither piece of soul had to be extracted because there was no body left!


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  #93  
Old July 24th, 2007, 9:54 pm
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Re: Discussion: The Horcruxes

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Originally Posted by TaraBrady View Post
Yes, exactly; I think Dumbledore said that any murder damages the soul, and that someone with the right knowledge can take advantage of that damage to actually rip off a piece of thier soul. Otherwise, your soul is a little tattered, but otherwise whole; I'd think too, that in someone like Molly's case, that tear could and would eventually heal.
And that it would heal by showing remorse.. sounds good to me

Edit: You were a bit faster Weaslytwin , but I really like you view

So the intention to really kill, tears the soul. And when the murder is committed you transfer a bit of the damaged soul into a horcrux. Simple as that


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Last edited by Lord_V; July 24th, 2007 at 10:00 pm.
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  #94  
Old July 24th, 2007, 9:56 pm
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Re: Discussion: The Horcruxes

Yes, exactly, but I don't think that's the only way for it to heal; I don't think what Molly did was a bad thing. She doesn't have anything to feel sorry for, but I can't imagine that her soul would stay torn just because the murder she committed was completely justified, while someone who killed someone who didn't deserve it and later repented could use that repentance to heal theirs.


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  #95  
Old July 24th, 2007, 9:59 pm
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Re: Discussion: The Horcruxes

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Originally Posted by Weasleytwin View Post
I'm actually pretty confident about what I'm about to say. Doesn't the book about horcruxes say that it takes extreme remorse (very painful) to put the soul back together?
I don't think that it has to be specifically remourse that puts the piece of soul back together - otherwise, the Death Eaters wouldn't be doing what they have to be doing.

As for the horcruxes themselves, can anyone find a picture of what the Ravenclaw horcrux actually was?


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  #96  
Old July 24th, 2007, 10:05 pm
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Re: Discussion: The Horcruxes

There's a picture of the bust wearing a wig and crown in the US edition of HBP:



But it's very definately a crown and not a tiara, so I woudln't go by that.


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  #97  
Old July 24th, 2007, 10:07 pm
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Re: Discussion: The Horcruxes

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Yes, exactly, but I don't think that's the only way for it to heal; I don't think what Molly did was a bad thing. She doesn't have anything to feel sorry for, but I can't imagine that her soul would stay torn just because the murder she committed was completely justified, while someone who killed someone who didn't deserve it and later repented could use that repentance to heal theirs.
The old debate, but I think killing is a bad thing in itself.
Surely it can be justified, and in this case is was, but I feel like it remains a bad thing that would definitely damage your soul.
How would Molly's soul heal itself you think, when she doesn't feel remorse?


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  #98  
Old July 24th, 2007, 10:10 pm
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Re: Discussion: The Horcruxes

Even though we don't really think about guilt/remorse as tearing or repairing the soul, I think we can think about it in terms of real life. Even if a good person kills someone in self-defense, he/she is likely to feel guilty about it. How do we know that that isn't due to our souls being damaged? And how do we get over it? Remorse.


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  #99  
Old July 24th, 2007, 10:14 pm
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Re: Discussion: The Horcruxes

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How would Molly's soul heal itself you think, when she doesn't feel remorse?
I guess that it's that old phrase: "Time heals all wounds"


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  #100  
Old July 24th, 2007, 10:20 pm
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Re: Discussion: The Horcruxes

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Originally Posted by Weasleytwin View Post
Even though we don't really think about guilt/remorse as tearing or repairing the soul, I think we can think about it in terms of real life. Even if a good person kills someone in self-defense, he/she is likely to feel guilty about it. How do we know that that isn't due to our souls being damaged? And how do we get over it? Remorse.
Even though I can't confirm this (hopefully, nobody at COS can), I think you're right.

You can feel hatred towards the person you killed or whatever, but eventually you'll still have to live with the fact that you took somebodies life (say it like that and you'll have even more trouble having no remorse ).


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