Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

[Kings_Cross]

Originally Posted by colouredshadows

On the subject of Parseltongue:



What has always slightly bothered me is the fact that Ron was able to use Parseltongue in DH when he entrered the Chamber of Secrets with Hermione to retrieve Basilisk fangs. Does this mean one can actually learn how to speak Parseltongue? That would mean that one isn't necessarily born with the ability to speak Parseltongue but could also aquire it with the help of someone who speaks it.

Ron was only able to say "Open" after a few tries. I think it is possible to catch a few phrases if one was dedicated enough but then comes the question of understanding the language when it actually comes from the mouth of a snake. That itself seems more like something you'd have to be born with.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by colouredshadows

What has always slightly bothered me is the fact that Ron was able to use Parseltongue in DH when he entrered the Chamber of Secrets with Hermione to retrieve Basilisk fangs. Does this mean one can actually learn how to speak Parseltongue? That would mean that one isn't necessarily born with the ability to speak Parseltongue but could also aquire it with the help of someone who speaks it.

Actually, yeah, I think it does. If you were able to study it really intensely, and you had a parselmouth friend to teach you, there is no reason why you couldn't eventually pick it up. JKR has said that she didn't think Parseltongue was a language that could be learned, but she said that this was because she didn't think there were any parselmouths who would have been willing to teach.

[leah49]

Originally Posted by Quaphasia

Another thing that remains curious for me: Religion in the books! Is the wizard world religious? They do celebrate Christmas in Hogwarts, so I figure Hogwarts is Christian, also, they have tombos with crosses and all that.
(I hope no one feels offended by this, so if you're very religious, don't read on): But then the idea of religion in the wizard world seems strange to me. Do they consider Jesus a muggle? If so, why don't they have more respect for muggles and are so estranged?

I don't think the wizarding world is religious. If a witch or wizard comes into Hogwarts religious they probably aren't denied the ability to practice their religion, but I don't think the actual school is religious. They celebrate Christmas because that's what people do in England like they do in the US whether they are Christian or not. They celebrate the presents and Christmas trees, not baby Jesus.

Originally Posted by colouredshadows

What has always slightly bothered me is the fact that Ron was able to use Parseltongue in DH when he entrered the Chamber of Secrets with Hermione to retrieve Basilisk fangs. Does this mean one can actually learn how to speak Parseltongue? That would mean that one isn't necessarily born with the ability to speak Parseltongue but could also aquire it with the help of someone who speaks it.

He wasn't speaking Parseltongue. He was just imitating sounds he heard Harry make. He heard Harry when they first went to the Chamber and when he opened the locket. We have examples, Peter in the cellar, that he is good at imitation. I don't think he knows what he's saying and I wonder if a snake would actually understand him.

[ILuvDarkMarks]

Originally Posted by leah49

He wasn't speaking Parseltongue. He was just imitating sounds he heard Harry make. He heard Harry when they first went to the Chamber and when he opened the locket. We have examples, Peter in the cellar, that he is good at imitation. I don't think he knows what he's saying and I wonder if a snake would actually understand him.

I disagree on your last statement only because Ron was able to open the Chamber. If a snake wouldn't be able to understand him then neither would the Chamber, IMO.

But otherwise, I think you are right. He's not truly speaking Parseltongue, but rather imitating sounds. To put it into a real life example: if I take a Spanish class at school, most of the time I'm simply repeating what the teacher says (i.e. imitating her sounds) to make a statement in Spanish. In comparison, being of Italian descent, I often speak Italian when my relatives come over, which comes naturally (i.e. Harry speaking Parseltongue). So, I don't consider myself able to speak Spanish, but rather able to memorize their "sounds". In contrast, I can speak Italian.

So I do think that Parseltongue can be learned, long story short, lol, but Ron wasn't really speaking the language.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by ILuvDarkMarks

I disagree on your last statement only because Ron was able to open the Chamber. If a snake wouldn't be able to understand him then neither would the Chamber, IMO.

But otherwise, I think you are right. He's not truly speaking Parseltongue, but rather imitating sounds. To put it into a real life example: if I take a Spanish class at school, most of the time I'm simply repeating what the teacher says (i.e. imitating her sounds) to make a statement in Spanish. In comparison, being of Italian descent, I often speak Italian when my relatives come over, which comes naturally (i.e. Harry speaking Parseltongue). So, I don't consider myself able to speak Spanish, but rather able to memorize their "sounds". In contrast, I can speak Italian.

So I do think that Parseltongue can be learned, long story short, lol, but Ron wasn't really speaking the language.

This would make for an interesting discussion, but I think there might be a bit of over-differentiation going on. I don't think there is really any point where a person goes from translating the words they want to say ('mimicking' the other language, as you guys put it) and fluidly speaking the language. I got reasonably close to fluidity in Spanish at one point a while ago, and I think the key thing is that instead of thinking about what to say one word at a time, I began thinking of what to say whole phrases at a time, and the conjugations became almost second nature.

If Ron repeated the word "open" over and over, I doubt he would have to think about what he was saying either when he went to open doors and such. At this point then, would be really be so far removed from a fluid speaker? I for one don't think so.

Originally Posted by leah49

I don't think he knows what he's saying and I wonder if a snake would actually understand him.

Well, he knew that he was asking the chamber to open, because Harry told him that he was asking the locket to open.

[ginevraweasly]

Ron suddenly speaking Parsel was irritating beyond anything for me, too. It just felt so implausible...I had to read the Hallows several times to figure out that is actually completely plausible to imitate foreign sounds and words (of course, haha) but the bothering thing is how it was presented. Jo should have started mentioning much earlier that Ron is good in imitating stuf...this way, most of the people would have accepted it without question.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by ginevraweasly

Ron suddenly speaking Parsel was irritating beyond anything for me, too. It just felt so implausible...I had to read the Hallows several times to figure out that is actually completely plausible to imitate foreign sounds and words (of course, haha) but the bothering thing is how it was presented. Jo should have started mentioning much earlier that Ron is good in imitating stuf...this way, most of the people would have accepted it without question.

Well, as another poster mentions, he does throw Wormtail off with an impression in the cellar of Malfoy Manor. Perhaps she could have put in earlier indications, though. If I recall correctly, though, Ron would throw in the occasional impression whenever they were making fun of Crabbe or Goyle or others. I don't know how solid that recollection is, though.

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by leah49

I don't think the wizarding world is religious. If a witch or wizard comes into Hogwarts religious they probably aren't denied the ability to practice their religion, but I don't think the actual school is religious. They celebrate Christmas because that's what people do in England like they do in the US whether they are Christian or not. They celebrate the presents and Christmas trees, not baby Jesus.

I don't think we can say definitively that no one is religious, since there are many religious references in Deathly Hallows. Lily and James are buried near a church in Godric's Hollow, and their statue is nearby. Harry and Hermione arrive on Christmas Eve and hear carols coming from the church. Lily/James/Baby Harry are very much like the Holy Family, and even have halos of snow on their heads! Also in the same graveyard, Arianna Dumbledore's grave has a Bible verse on it, Matthew 6:19, "where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

I think each person has to interpret all that their own way, according to their beliefs. Deathly Hallows can be read on either a secular or religious level, but JKR said she put Christian elements in there.

[craiggles]

Originally Posted by colouredshadows

What has always slightly bothered me is the fact that Ron was able to use Parseltongue in DH when he entrered the Chamber of Secrets with Hermione to retrieve Basilisk fangs. Does this mean one can actually learn how to speak Parseltongue? That would mean that one isn't necessarily born with the ability to speak Parseltongue but could also aquire it with the help of someone who speaks it.

I assume that you could learn it, but I can't imagine people clamoring to learn how to speak to snakes. That has very limited usefulness, and additionally it's tied to the Dark Arts, so people might be extra-weary of it. On top of that, it'd probably be near-impossible to find a teacher who could speak it and had a thorough enough understanding of language, syntax, etc. to pass it on

Harry and Voldemort are special cases because they can speak it naturally, which is what's rare, but I'm sure you could learn if it you wanted to.

[gertiekeddle]

I know it sometimes happens accidentally, but please try to stick to the book discussion in here. For particular interpretations from DH2 movie shouldn't be posted since many members didn't yet watch the film. Thank you!

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by craiggles

I assume that you could learn it, but I can't imagine people clamoring to learn how to speak to snakes. That has very limited usefulness, and additionally it's tied to the Dark Arts, so people might be extra-weary of it. On top of that, it'd probably be near-impossible to find a teacher who could speak it and had a thorough enough understanding of language, syntax, etc. to pass it on

Harry and Voldemort are special cases because they can speak it naturally, which is what's rare, but I'm sure you could learn if it you wanted to.

The other difficulty about finding a teacher is that because Parselmouths hear themselves speaking their native language anyway, they don't have any clue what they are saying. I wonder, though, if Harry was to say "open," and ask Ron to repeat it, and Ron got it perfectly right as he did in the chamber in DH, would Harry hear "open," or hissing?

[horcrux4]

Originally Posted by willfitz

The other difficulty about finding a teacher is that because Parselmouths hear themselves speaking their native language anyway, they don't have any clue what they are saying. I wonder, though, if Harry was to say "open," and ask Ron to repeat it, and Ron got it perfectly right as he did in the chamber in DH, would Harry hear "open," or hissing?

Yes, Harry didn't hear hissing when the Gaunts spoke Parseltongue, he heard English and couldn't see why Ogden wasn't understanding it. I seem to remember when Harry opened the Chamber he had to focus on ther snake on the tap and say "open" which came out as hissing because he was addressing the snake. I doubt he would have remembered what parseltongue sound he made. Ron could remember because he just heard the sound and knew Harry was saying that to open something.

[leah49]

Originally Posted by ILuvDarkMarks

I disagree on your last statement only because Ron was able to open the Chamber. If a snake wouldn't be able to understand him then neither would the Chamber, IMO.

That's true.

Originally Posted by willfitz

If Ron repeated the word "open" over and over, I doubt he would have to think about what he was saying either when he went to open doors and such. At this point then, would be really be so far removed from a fluid speaker? I for one don't think so.

But, does he know he's saying open? I don't think he has a clue what he's saying just that the combination of sounds opens the chamber and it opened the locket. He could be saying "open" or "sesame" or "do as I say" or anything.

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

I don't think we can say definitively that no one is religious, since there are many religious references in Deathly Hallows.

Right, of course. I don't want to believe no one at Hogwarts is religious. My point was just that it's not a religious school. It's not tied to any religion. It's like a public school in the US. Here we honor Christian holidays like Christmas, but the schools don't celebrate or force kids to celebrate the Christian aspects.

Lily and James are buried near a church in Godric's Hollow, and their statue is nearby. Harry and Hermione arrive on Christmas Eve and hear carols coming from the church. Lily/James/Baby Harry are very much like the Holy Family, and even have halos of snow on their heads! Also in the same graveyard, Arianna Dumbledore's grave has a Bible verse on it, Matthew 6:19, "where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

I think each person has to interpret all that their own way, according to their beliefs. Deathly Hallows can be read on either a secular or religious level, but JKR said she put Christian elements in there.

Exactly.

[BrianTung]

SPOILER ALERT: Concerns general properties of Parseltongue (but inspired by use in DH2)

Spoiler: show

Originally Posted by willfitz

The other difficulty about finding a teacher is that because Parselmouths hear themselves speaking their native language anyway, they don't have any clue what they are saying. I wonder, though, if Harry was to say "open," and ask Ron to repeat it, and Ron got it perfectly right as he did in the chamber in DH, would Harry hear "open," or hissing?

Hard to say. I speak two languages natively (more or less), and although it is true that for both languages I don't hear the sounds of the languages so much as I hear the words and meanings, in neither case would I be unaware of the simple fact of speaking another language! And I've never heard of anyone with that total lack of awareness. So I'm not sure that we can reason out exactly what Harry would hear.

The way it was presented in the movie, Ron's rendition sounded nothing like either Voldemort or Harry speaking Parseltongue. Part of it is the reverb they add, especially to Harry's Parseltongue, but it also just sounded sort of, well, off. We might guess that Harry would hear "Open" (or whatever it was that Ron said), but it would sound fairly weird to him, almost as though we heard someone speak English with a pronounced Chinese accent, say. But it's still just a guess.

Originally Posted by colouredshadows

On the subject of Parseltongue:



What has always slightly bothered me is the fact that Ron was able to use Parseltongue in DH when he entrered the Chamber of Secrets with Hermione to retrieve Basilisk fangs. Does this mean one can actually learn how to speak Parseltongue? That would mean that one isn't necessarily born with the ability to speak Parseltongue but could also aquire it with the help of someone who speaks it.

Pretty sure Dumbledore learned to speak Mermish, Gobbledygook, and Parseltongue, all without being a native speaker of any of those. Dumbledore certainly seems to understand Morfin's memories, and I believe Rowling confirmed that he does speak (or at least understand) Parseltongue.

Originally Posted by Potterwatch93

I have been wondering the same thing...there have been theories about little stuff like harry wouldn't have been able to us Grimmauld place in the seventh book but is that truly why his death was so important? I would have thought the reason (based on what JK said) would have been much more obvious and easily spotted but I can't seem to figure out a definite reason for it

Best I can figure is that Harry needs Kreacher to help him get the locket, and he needs to inherit Kreacher to do that. Kreacher won't obey Harry without Sirius's involvement before then, and Harry would probably have been instructed not to tell Sirius anything about his "job," had Sirius survived past OotP. Yes, he could have told Sirius he needed the locket badly without telling him why, but something tells me Sirius might not have agreed to use Kreacher for that (remember, he really despised Kreacher), especially if he felt betrayed by Harry.

also, another curious thing to me (not really a plot hole, but an inconsistency) is that in HP7 the book, Hermione talks about how she modified her parents memories to make them forget about her and make it their life's ambition to move to Australia, but then a little later in the book when they are in the cafe right after they disapparated from the wedding, the death eaters come and the knock them out...well Harry and Ron both say they've never done a memory charm before, and Hermione also says she's never done a memory charm before but she knows the theory of it...how can that be when she's already modified her parents memories?

Rowling explained this as follows: With her parents, Hermione made them believe they were different people. With Dolohov and Rowle, she actually wiped out their memories of the incident. It's a bit thin, I agree, but that's essentially what she said.

[Gwendolen]

How did Hagrid know that the Potters had been killed, and how did he rescue Harry before the neighbours or any other member of the order?

This is what Hagrid says in PoA.

"I met him!" growled Hagrid. "I musta bin the last ter see him before he killed all them people! It was me what rescued Harry from Lily an' James's house after they were killed! Jus' got him outta the ruins, poor little thing, with a great slash across his forehead an' his parents dead ... an' Sirius Black turns up, on that flyin' motorbike he used ter ride. Never occurred ter me what he was doin' there. I didn' know he'd bin Lily an' James's Secret-Keeper. Thought he'd jus' heard the news o' You-Know-Who's attack an' come ter see what he could do.

Hagrid can't have known where the Potters were before the attack. The only way for Hagrid to know where they were was if the secret-keeper told him. As Hagrid didn't know who was secret-keeper, he can't have known where they were.

Why did Hagrid go there, and how did he get there? Who did Hagrid think Sirius might have heard the news of You-Know-Who's attack from, if not from the first person on the scene - himself?

[CyclonePrefect8]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

How did Hagrid know that the Potters had been killed, and how did he rescue Harry before the neighbours or any other member of the order?

This is what Hagrid says in PoA.



Hagrid can't have known where the Potters were before the attack. The only way for Hagrid to know where they were was if the secret-keeper told him. As Hagrid didn't know who was secret-keeper, he can't have known where they were.

Why did Hagrid go there, and how did he get there? Who did Hagrid think Sirius might have heard the news of You-Know-Who's attack from, if not from the first person on the scene - himself?

Dumbledore knew and he gave Hagrid the orders to get Harry so he told Hagrid. Hagrid is also not the complete brightest so he probably thought Dumbledore told Sirius.

[BrianTung]

Originally Posted by willfitz

The other difficulty about finding a teacher is that because Parselmouths hear themselves speaking their native language anyway, they don't have any clue what they are saying.

Actually, do we know that this "unawareness" is generally true of Parselmouths, or is it only true of Harry? Remember that Harry is not "naturally" a Parselmouth; he only speaks Parseltongue by virtue of the fragment of Voldemort's soul lodged in his forehead. I don't remember anything in the books that makes it obvious either way whether Voldemort or the Gaunts could consciously speak Parseltongue specifically as a distinct language, as opposed to having it come automatically out when talking to snakes or other Parselmouths.

[Gwendolen]

Originally Posted by CyclonePrefect8

Dumbledore knew and he gave Hagrid the orders to get Harry so he told Hagrid. Hagrid is also not the complete brightest so he probably thought Dumbledore told Sirius.

How did Dumbledore know? Dumbledore thought Sirius was secret-keeper. If Peter had told him where the Potters were hiding Dumbledore would have known Sirius wasn't the secret keeper. Before the attack, the only people who knew where the Potters were and who the secret keeper was were Lily, James, Peter and Sirius (and Voldemort, once Peter told him).

Who would have told Dumbledore that the Potters had been attacked?

[CyclonePrefect8]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

How did Dumbledore know? Dumbledore thought Sirius was secret-keeper. If Peter had told him where the Potters were hiding Dumbledore would have known Sirius wasn't the secret keeper. Before the attack, the only people who knew where the Potters were and who the secret keeper was were Lily, James, Peter and Sirius (and Voldemort, once Peter told him).

Who would have told Dumbledore that the Potters had been attacked?

Hmmmm. Well as it was Dumbledore who told the Potters to use th Fidelius Charm im guessing he had an idea and the fact they lived in Godric's Hallow. Also when Voldemort attacked the charm broke i think since everyone knew where it was in the 7th book. But the news spread fast of the attack because people were partying the day and night after.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by leah49

But, does he know he's saying open? I don't think he has a clue what he's saying just that the combination of sounds opens the chamber and it opened the locket. He could be saying "open" or "sesame" or "do as I say" or anything.

Well, yes, I believe he does know that he is saying 'open,' by virtue of Harry saying "I'm going to tell it to open," but I'm afraid that wasn't my point.

What I meant was if Ron was saying the Parseltongue phrase for open which he had learned from Harry, would Harry hear that as English, or as a hiss? Judging by the fact that the door recognizes it as true Parseltongue, I'd say Harry would just hear English.