Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

[JimmyPotter]

Originally Posted by CyclonePrefect8

Hedwig could've flown to them like he did for Harry in the 3rd or Hogwarts might send an annual letter to the families of the kids to make sure they get something at least.

I believe the gifts from the Dursleys arrive with Hedwig, so it sounds like the first one is correct. My favorite gift from them was a toothpick.

[hpfan101]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

Wouldn't it be great if some of that information was on Pottermore?

LOL, my exact thoughts too! I am almost included that in my original post, glad to see we were thinking along the same lines.

[Ravenclaw797]

Originally Posted by jackdagreenskin

I remember finding a few in the first book, cant remember them all, will post as they come back to me.

But in the philosophers stone, for christmas, the dursleys send harry some socks (or 50p taped to a letter) - one is book, one is movie, cant remember which way around. How do they manage to send this, because hogwarts is unplottable so wouldnt have a postal address, and they wouldnt have used an owl...

I remember reading on a website a theory about Hedwig flying to the Dursleys and pecking the daylights of them until they consented to give her something to take back to Harry. That makes perfect sense why they would send Harry such bad presents, haha.

[GillyweedFan]

Didn't Snape say in DH that he thought there were Wizards working in the Postal System? Because Petunia wrote to Dumbledore didn't she?

[Ravenclaw797]

Originally Posted by CyclonePrefect8

Maybe Dumbledore performed the spell, and knew it broke when Voldemort attacked. And Hagrid doesnt deliver Harry to the Dursleys until the night after which doesn't make a ton of sense since he's on a flying magical bike and the wizarding community knows about it in the morning...

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/...e_potters.html

According to this timeline, Dumbledore had placed a charm on the house to know what happenend. I think the citing (PC/JKR1) from that part means JKR said so in a PotterCast.
The missing 24 hours is probably an accident of JKR's, but we can speculate what might have happened.

[CyclonePrefect8]

Originally Posted by Ravenclaw797

I remember reading on a website a theory about Hedwig flying to the Dursleys and pecking the daylights of them until they consented to give her something to take back to Harry. That makes perfect sense why they would send Harry such bad presents, haha.

I could see Vernon just shooting Hedwig if she did that tho .

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by CyclonePrefect8

Hedwig could've flown to them like he did for Harry in the 3rd or Hogwarts might send an annual letter to the families of the kids to make sure they get something at least.

I think Hogwarts does send off notes to the students homes, perhaps wishing them a Happy Christmas so they don't forget to send something. In SS/PS, Harry's 50 P coin from the Dursleys comes with a note: "We received your message and enclose your Christmas present. From Uncle Vernon and Aunt Petunia." I can't imagine Harry sent them a letter, so it had to be the school. They were probably freaked out so actually sent a small coin. The presents got worse and worse every year, as the Dursleys realized they weren't going to be cursed if they didn't send something nice -- they just had to send something to make the owl leave.....

[inthebreeze]

I imagine Harry probably did send them a message, but just to say he was staying for Christmas/all the holidays.

[hpfan101]

Perhaps Harry did, but I think it more likely that the school did. There were several times throughout the series that it was mentioned that a teacher would be "writing to your parents" when Harry and Ron got into trouble. It seems likely that the school would keep parents advised on a number of things. However, I've always wondered if they send these to Muggles by regular post or an owl.

Plus, it's worth noting that the Dursleys never mentioned receiving correspondance from the school to Harry (although I doubt they would ever admit to it!

[Gwendolen]

Originally Posted by Ravenclaw797

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/...e_potters.html

According to this timeline, Dumbledore had placed a charm on the house to know what happenend. I think the citing (PC/JKR1) from that part means JKR said so in a PotterCast.
The missing 24 hours is probably an accident of JKR's, but we can speculate what might have happened.

That seems odd too. Why add a charm that only warns people when it's too late? If a charm went off I'd expect Dumbledore to send more help than Hagrid. Voldemort or his death eaters might still have been there and then what could Hagrid do?

If Peter expected Sirius to go to Godric's Hollow that night, he could have sent a message to Dumbledore warning him that Sirius was on his way to betray the Potters. If he was able to tell Dumbledore where the Potters were, it would confirm that Sirius had broken the charm, rather than give away that Peter was secret-keeper. That way Dumbledore could have found out what happened before sending Hagrid to pick up Harry.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

That seems odd too. Why add a charm that only warns people when it's too late? If a charm went off I'd expect Dumbledore to send more help than Hagrid. Voldemort or his death eaters might still have been there and then what could Hagrid do?

If Peter expected Sirius to go to Godric's Hollow that night, he could have sent a message to Dumbledore warning him that Sirius was on his way to betray the Potters. If he was able to tell Dumbledore where the Potters were, it would confirm that Sirius had broken the charm, rather than give away that Peter was secret-keeper. That way Dumbledore could have found out what happened before sending Hagrid to pick up Harry.

I'm not sure we can trust the Lexicon timeline to be completely correct.

Even so, we aren't given enough information to know what really happened in the 24 hours. I think it's safe to say that Dumbledore himself went there immediately to assess things, hide the house from muggle view, bury the dead, etc. The Dursleys had to be contacted to make sure they'd take Harry so that the charm Dumbledore intended to place would be possible. Dumbledore probably needed to make sure the rumours of Voldemort's temporary demise were true, etc. For all we know, Dumbledore went back to the Potter's house, waited until nightfall -- no sense arriving at the Dursleys in the daytime where too many muggles could see (that would upset the Dursleys) -- contacted Hagrid to get Harry, and then proceeded to Privet Drive.

[Gwendolen]

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

I'm not sure we can trust the Lexicon timeline to be completely correct.

Even so, we aren't given enough information to know what really happened in the 24 hours.

It's not the 24 hours that bother me, as Hagrid could have been pottering about somewhere with Harry. It's the minutes between Voldemort blowing himself up and Hagrid's arrival.

Nobody knew Peter was secret-keeper, so he can't have told anyone but Voldemort where the Potters were before the attack. After the attack Hagrid presumably travelled from Hogwarts to Godric's Hollow so quickly that he got there before the next door neighbours rescued Harry. How did Hagrid hear the news? If Dumbledore sent him, who told Dumbledore?

Dumbledore could have placed a charm on the house, but he didn't know the Potters were hiding there because it was part of the Fidelius charm. It also seems a bit mad to add a charm that only works when it's too late to make any difference.

[dukeatreides_iv]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

It's not the 24 hours that bother me, as Hagrid could have been pottering about somewhere with Harry. It's the minutes between Voldemort blowing himself up and Hagrid's arrival.

Nobody knew Peter was secret-keeper, so he can't have told anyone but Voldemort where the Potters were before the attack. After the attack Hagrid presumably travelled from Hogwarts to Godric's Hollow so quickly that he got there before the next door neighbours rescued Harry. How did Hagrid hear the news? If Dumbledore sent him, who told Dumbledore?

Dumbledore could have placed a charm on the house, but he didn't know the Potters were hiding there because it was part of the Fidelius charm. It also seems a bit mad to add a charm that only works when it's too late to make any difference.

wasnt it DD that suggested the fidelius charm? i dont think the charm would prevent him from knowing they were there. it would prevent him from entering. the DE's knew where 12 grimmuald place was, just couldnt enter because of the charm.

[Gwendolen]

Originally Posted by dukeatreides_iv

wasnt it DD that suggested the fidelius charm? i dont think the charm would prevent him from knowing they were there. it would prevent him from entering. the DE's knew where 12 grimmuald place was, just couldnt enter because of the charm.

Dumbledore suggested the Fidelius charm and offered to be secret keeper, but James said he would use Sirius instead, and then changed his mind and used Peter. Dumbledore didn't know that Peter was secret-keeper, but he would have if Peter had told him where the Potters were.

I think the secret for Grimmauld Place was that it was the headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix, so I think it was more to stop people looking for the Order there than to hide the building. I think the Black family already had charms to hide it and stop people getting in or apparating out.

At Godric's Hollow, I think the secret was that the Potters were hiding in their house, because someone said people could look through their window and not see them. That would mean anyone could find the house but they wouldn't know the Potters were there.

When the charm broke, I don't know whether it restored what people knew before, or whether it just broke the enchantment that stopped the secret being passed on. Either way, I think someone would have to spread the news of the attack before anyone tried to find the Potters.

[craiggles]

Lockhart says in CoS that he used the Homorphus Charm to "cure" the Wagga Wagga Werewolf. That makes me wonder why werewolves, like Lupin for example, didn't just get others to perform the charm on them once they transformed? Of course Lockhart is a huge fraud and he never did that, but that doesn't mean it's not possible - if it wasn't, wouldn't the book have been denounced?

[dukeatreides_iv]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

Dumbledore suggested the Fidelius charm and offered to be secret keeper, but James said he would use Sirius instead, and then changed his mind and used Peter. Dumbledore didn't know that Peter was secret-keeper, but he would have if Peter had told him where the Potters were.

I think the secret for Grimmauld Place was that it was the headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix, so I think it was more to stop people looking for the Order there than to hide the building. I think the Black family already had charms to hide it and stop people getting in or apparating out.

At Godric's Hollow, I think the secret was that the Potters were hiding in their house, because someone said people could look through their window and not see them. That would mean anyone could find the house but they wouldn't know the Potters were there.

When the charm broke, I don't know whether it restored what people knew before, or whether it just broke the enchantment that stopped the secret being passed on. Either way, I think someone would have to spread the news of the attack before anyone tried to find the Potters.

i think DD could still have known where the potters were. if he did he could have had others watching the house like mrs figg watched the dursleys. plus it seems godrics hollow may have been home to many who were magical. the news could have been sent to DD very quickly that something horrible happened at the potters.

it seems to me to make sense that the charm was on the potters themselves. when they were both dead, the charm was ended.

[inthebreeze]

They had a cat at their house in Godric's Hollow. It was established much earlier in the series that cats can be a good way to spy on someone or keep an eye on them for their own good. Perhaps the cat tipped off Dumbledore.

[nevilleismyhero]

Originally Posted by inthebreeze

They had a cat at their house in Godric's Hollow. It was established much earlier in the series that cats can be a good way to spy on someone or keep an eye on them for their own good. Perhaps the cat tipped off Dumbledore.

this is an awesome thought! and so true! i never thought of this and i may be way off... but considering JK at one point said that theres is more to animals in the books such as crookshanks then meets the eye (i cant find the specific quote at this moment) but what if crookshanks was orginally the potter's cat...thats why crookshanks trusted sirius so much in POA? and maybe crookshanks tipped off dumbledore like you said?!

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by hpfan101

I don't agree that Harry hears it as English. I will try to explain my reasoning: if you are bi-langual, you have no need to translate words from either language. You just understand them. Take, for example, when you hear words in English. You don't have to stop and think about the meaning of them, you just naturally "get" them. It's the same for a second language. However, when you are studying a second language, you DO have to translate at the beginning (ex: okay, he said "Hola," I know that means, "Hi," so he just said "hi."). Harry is past that point. He understands Parseltongue and doesn't need to translate it. So he doesn't understand it in English. He understands the hisses and just naturally accepts them as words. In the Gaunt's house, I think once Dumbledore points out that they are speaking Parseltongue, Harry started to pay attention and realized that he was hearing hisses, not English. It is hard to explain unless you are bi-langual, but having studied a second language (and translated for many years before getting to be bilangual), there is a difference (and I may be explaining it poorly).

I understand where you are coming from, but I just don't think it is so easily comparable to Muggle languages. I think it is made pretty clear in the book that Harry's comprehension and speaking of Parseltongue is completely subconscious at the best of times, unless he is either speaking it on purpose or has been alerted to it being spoken to it. Sure, when he is told that the Gaunts are speaking Parseltongue, he is able to sort of hear a difference, but with no one there to tell him at Bathilda Bagshot's house, he had no idea that 'Bathilda' was speaking to him in Parseltongue. Even someone who is fully bilingual must be able to tell when someone is speaking language A to them as opposed to language B, especially if only one person on the planet speaks language A!

If he didn't know that Ron was going to try to speak Parseltongue to him, therefore, I think it would be interesting to see whether he would be able to notice.

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

It's not the 24 hours that bother me, as Hagrid could have been pottering about somewhere with Harry. It's the minutes between Voldemort blowing himself up and Hagrid's arrival.

Nobody knew Peter was secret-keeper, so he can't have told anyone but Voldemort where the Potters were before the attack. After the attack Hagrid presumably travelled from Hogwarts to Godric's Hollow so quickly that he got there before the next door neighbours rescued Harry. How did Hagrid hear the news? If Dumbledore sent him, who told Dumbledore?

Dumbledore could have placed a charm on the house, but he didn't know the Potters were hiding there because it was part of the Fidelius charm. It also seems a bit mad to add a charm that only works when it's too late to make any difference.

Yes, there has been quite a bit of speculation that Dumbledore put a charm on the house to allow him to detect if it had been penetrated or if the charm had been broken or something. Dumbledore may have put such a charm on before the Fidelius was put in place, but I doubt it. In my opinion, Dumbledore was able to access the Potters purely because, as one of their primary consultants, he already knew the secret before it was encased in Peter's soul.

The Fidelius Charm allows for the storing of a secret in a person's soul, and Flitwick tells us that no one is able to find out this information unless told by the secret keeper; however, I am of the opinion that if they already knew the information, the Fidelius would not be capable of dislodging this information from their mind. In my opinion, this makes a whole lot of sense in terms of the workings of the spell, and that whole business of magic having logical limitations which JKR is so proud of.

[HedwigOwl]

Originally Posted by willfitz

Yes, there has been quite a bit of speculation that Dumbledore put a charm on the house to allow him to detect if it had been penetrated or if the charm had been broken or something. Dumbledore may have put such a charm on before the Fidelius was put in place, but I doubt it. In my opinion, Dumbledore was able to access the Potters purely because, as one of their primary consultants, he already knew the secret before it was encased in Peter's soul.

The Fidelius Charm allows for the storing of a secret in a person's soul, and Flitwick tells us that no one is able to find out this information unless told by the secret keeper; however, I am of the opinion that if they already knew the information, the Fidelius would not be capable of dislodging this information from their mind. In my opinion, this makes a whole lot of sense in terms of the workings of the spell, and that whole business of magic having logical limitations which JKR is so proud of.

This makes the most sense to me. We know that Sirius went to check on Peter at his supposed hiding place the night the Potters were killed. When he didn't find him, he went to the Potters' house and found them dead; realizing what Peter had done, he set out to find him. We know he ran into Hagrid at the Potters'; Hagrid was already rescuing Harry per Dumbledore's orders ( we learn this in POA, scene at Madam Rosmerta's). So there wasn't a lot of time between the murders and Harry's rescue; the longer time period was after Harry's rescue and his arrival at the Dursleys. I still think Dumbledore needed to confirm as much information about Voldemort's demise as possible, hide the ruined house from view of muggles, and tend to the burying of Lily & James. Hagrid keeping Harry until Dumbledore gave him the OK to come to the Dursleys makes perfect sense. A lot needed to be done, and nightfall was more discreet for delivering Harry at 4 Privet.