Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

[CyclonePrefect8]

Originally Posted by nevilleismyhero

this is an awesome thought! and so true! i never thought of this and i may be way off... but considering JK at one point said that theres is more to animals in the books such as crookshanks then meets the eye (i cant find the specific quote at this moment) but what if crookshanks was orginally the potter's cat...thats why crookshanks trusted sirius so much in POA? and maybe crookshanks tipped off dumbledore like you said?!

Idk about crookshanks, it'd be cool since he was basically gone since the 3rd but I doubt it. Crookshanks would have been more loyal to harry you would think and Sirius would have recognized him.

[northernlight]

I do not know if this has already been discussed or not.
In PoA when Harry and Hermione travel back with the time turner and Lupin uses the marauders map to see Peter and Sirius shouldn't he see 2 Harrys and 2 Hermionies?

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by northernlight

I do not know if this has already been discussed or not.
In PoA when Harry and Hermione travel back with the time turner and Lupin uses the marauders map to see Peter and Sirius shouldn't he see 2 Harrys and 2 Hermionies?

If he had looked at both locations where Harry and Hermione were, then yes, he would have.

[tuxedocat]

I'm not pointing out a plot hole, but rather giving a possible explanation for the commonly questioned plot hole of why how did George & Fred know their OWL results & Percy know his NEWT results before they left Hogwarts at the end of POA when Harry, Ron & Hermione didn't learn their OWL results until two weeks later, when they all were at the Burrow in HBP, which has been questioned on earlier version of this thread (and other places). I say blame it Umbridge's mess up of running Hogwarts during much of OotP. If we go back to CoS, at the beginning of Through the Trapdoor, Ron states that there is a week before they get their test results when they are done with their test while they are still at Hogwarts. During that week they go on to go through the trapdoor, face Quirelmort, win the Housecup, etc, and one assumes, to get their final test results before going home for the summer.

Think of the mess that Umbridge must of have left behind for Dumbledore to clean up at Hogwarts, plus what he & his Assistant Headmistress McGonagal as members of the Order, had to be dealing with in the wake of Voldemort's public return, the change in the Minister for Magic. Heck, even Fudge, in his chat with muggle Prime Minister mentions how often he's been bugging Dumbledore.

[GillyweedFan]

Originally Posted by tuxedocat

I'm not pointing out a plot hole, but rather giving a possible explanation for the commonly questioned plot hole of why how did George & Fred know their OWL results & Percy know his NEWT results before they left Hogwarts at the end of POA when Harry, Ron & Hermione didn't learn their OWL results until two weeks later, when they all were at the Burrow in HBP, which has been questioned on earlier version of this thread (and other places). I say blame it Umbridge's mess up of running Hogwarts during much of OotP. If we go back to CoS, at the beginning of Through the Trapdoor, Ron states that there is a week before they get their test results when they are done with their test while they are still at Hogwarts. During that week they go on to go through the trapdoor, face Quirelmort, win the Housecup, etc, and one assumes, to get their final test results before going home for the summer.

For your Philosopher's Stone comment, (I assume you meant PS even though you wrote CoS xD) Harry, Ron and Hermione were only partaking in exams run by the school to access their next year of education. These tests wouldn't provide them with actual qualifications. In the case of many schools in Britain, they normally run tests to assess how much has been learnt that year. This differs from GCSE's, (O.W.L's) which would be externally assessed exams not given by the school, but from the exam boards instead and would provide them with qualifications.
So it's quite natural for the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th years to get their results back before they finish the year because the teachers would mark it themselves and hand it back.

As for PoA...I think you're probably spot on with saying Umbridge may have messed up the school and it's timeline :P

[leah49]

Originally Posted by craiggles

Lockhart says in CoS that he used the Homorphus Charm to "cure" the Wagga Wagga Werewolf. That makes me wonder why werewolves, like Lupin for example, didn't just get others to perform the charm on them once they transformed? Of course Lockhart is a huge fraud and he never did that, but that doesn't mean it's not possible - if it wasn't, wouldn't the book have been denounced?

This is Lockhart we're talking about. There's a good chance the "Homorphus Charm" isn't real.

[Hannah_337]

Originally Posted by leah49

This is Lockhart we're talking about. There's a good chance the "Homorphus Charm" isn't real.

totally agree with this statement!

[BubblyShell22]

Well, Lockhart did say that he modified the memories of those who did do these things. So possibly it was done, just that Lockhart said he himself did it when he didn't. And maybe Lupin didn't know about it.

[Hedwiglives7]

Originally Posted by nevilleismyhero

this is an awesome thought! and so true! i never thought of this and i may be way off... but considering JK at one point said that theres is more to animals in the books such as crookshanks then meets the eye (i cant find the specific quote at this moment) but what if crookshanks was orginally the potter's cat...thats why crookshanks trusted sirius so much in POA? and maybe crookshanks tipped off dumbledore like you said?!

Woah, mind blown there

[nevilleismyhero]

Originally Posted by CyclonePrefect8

Idk about crookshanks, it'd be cool since he was basically gone since the 3rd but I doubt it. Crookshanks would have been more loyal to harry you would think and Sirius would have recognized him.

i had to think about this for a second but i realized this-- if you think about it crookshanks was loyal to harry... i mean pettigrew had nothing to do with hermione and crookshanks was after scabbers.... and that wouldnt have helped hermione at all because siruis was nothing to her and lily and james death didnt really effect her like harry...so crookshanks going after scabbers was loyalty to harry more then herminoe which is my point haha. and also in lily's letter it says about how siruis hasnt seen them in awhile, maybe the cat was a kitten and sirius never got to see the cat? this is very plausible indeed......

[hpfan101]

Originally Posted by dukeatreides_iv

wasnt it DD that suggested the fidelius charm? i dont think the charm would prevent him from knowing they were there. it would prevent him from entering. the DE's knew where 12 grimmuald place was, just couldnt enter because of the charm.

Grimmauld Place was Unplottable, which means that others couldn't see it. We have evidence that places that are Unplottable are invisible to Muggles (the Leaky Cauldron), and then here, again, where Muggles can't see Grimmauld Place. Then we have the Fidelius Charm on Grimmauld Place, which stated that the Headquarters for the Order of the Phoenix was there. I think these two things combined kept Death Eaters from being able to see Grimmauld Place even though they knew where it was.

As for the Potters' house, it wasn't the house itself but rather the Potters' who were the subject of the Fidelius Charm.

Originally Posted by dukeatreides_iv

it seems to me to make sense that the charm was on the potters themselves. when they were both dead, the charm was ended.

Yes to the first part, no to the second half. The charm was also placed on Harry and he was still alive. So if the charm was still active, Hagrid shouldn't have been able to see Harry. Somehow, Voldemort's spell when it backfired seems to have undone the protective enchantments.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by hpfan101

Yes to the first part, no to the second half. The charm was also placed on Harry and he was still alive. So if the charm was still active, Hagrid shouldn't have been able to see Harry. Somehow, Voldemort's spell when it backfired seems to have undone the protective enchantments.

I disagree. The secret would have been that the Potters were hiding out at their house, by my reckoning, which means that when none of the Potters were hiding out at their house any more, the charm would have broken due to the secret no longer existing.

[craiggles]

Originally Posted by leah49

This is Lockhart we're talking about. There's a good chance the "Homorphus Charm" isn't real.

It is, as far as I know - it's what Remus and Sirius use to force Peter out of his rat form...which would also mean Lupin knew about it.

[Gwendolen]

Originally Posted by willfitz

I disagree. The secret would have been that the Potters were hiding out at their house, by my reckoning, which means that when none of the Potters were hiding out at their house any more, the charm would have broken due to the secret no longer existing.

I think the secret must have been that the Potters were hiding from Voldemort in that house, that way Peter telling Voldemort would have broken the charm.

If the secret was simply that the Potters were hiding in the house, Hagrid shouldn't have been able to see Harry unless Peter told him Harry was there.

[LumosSempra]

I'm sure this has been discussed before but I can't find it anywhere. Remember how in Deathly Hallows the Death Eaters were able to find the trio because they placed a trace on the word "Voldemort"? Correct me if I'm wrong, but supposedly this is how they found them in the cafe the first night that they ran away from the wedding. But I can't for the life of me find anywhere in that scene where they said "Voldemort". I've re-read those pages several times and can't find any mention to Voldemort. So how did those two Death Eaters find them in the cafe?? Am I missing something?

[ILuvDarkMarks]

Originally Posted by craiggles

It is, as far as I know - it's what Remus and Sirius use to force Peter out of his rat form...which would also mean Lupin knew about it.

There's one difference though: Peter was an animagus. And we know that "an animagus elects to turn into an animal," whereas "a werewolf has no choice." It is my opinion that no spell would work on a werewolf for this reason; you can't willingly change someone back when they didn't willingly change themselves first. I don't think it is confirmed that this is the spell that Sirius and Lupin use on Pettigrew, or that it is a real spell at all. But if it is, then I would assume that Lockhart was using his knowledge of the spell to claim that's how he handled the Wagga Wagga Werewolf; makes sense since he's a fraud anyway and probably wouldn't do his research.

[horcrux4]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

I think the secret must have been that the Potters were hiding from Voldemort in that house, that way Peter telling Voldemort would have broken the charm.

If the secret was simply that the Potters were hiding in the house, Hagrid shouldn't have been able to see Harry unless Peter told him Harry was there.

I agree Hagrid shouldn't have been able to see Harry if the Fidelius charm was on the family hiding in the house. The only other alternatives I can see is either that James and Lily didn't have the charm cover Harry himself but just the two of them, or that the charm was to protect a trio of people and once the trio was destroyed, the third member, no longer being part of that trio, became findable.

Originally Posted by LumosSempra

I'm sure this has been discussed before but I can't find it anywhere. Remember how in Deathly Hallows the Death Eaters were able to find the trio because they placed a trace on the word "Voldemort"? Correct me if I'm wrong, but supposedly this is how they found them in the cafe the first night that they ran away from the wedding. But I can't for the life of me find anywhere in that scene where they said "Voldemort". I've re-read those pages several times and can't find any mention to Voldemort. So how did those two Death Eaters find them in the cafe?? Am I missing something?

Just before the Death Eaters enter the cafe, Hermione says, "We know what's going on! Voldemort's taken over the Ministry, what else do we need to know?"

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by Gwendolen

I think the secret must have been that the Potters were hiding from Voldemort in that house, that way Peter telling Voldemort would have broken the charm.

If the secret was simply that the Potters were hiding in the house, Hagrid shouldn't have been able to see Harry unless Peter told him Harry was there.

That's a good point. Another possibility, though, is that when the house's top floor is blown apart, the house is no longer considered 'intact,' and therefore the Fidelius breaks given the house will have been a part of the secret.

I believe that this same sort of thing happened with the Lovegood house in DH, where the house blowing apart allowed the trio to apparate where I doubt they would have been able to otherwise.

[MrSleepyHead]

Originally Posted by willfitz

Yes, there has been quite a bit of speculation that Dumbledore put a charm on the house to allow him to detect if it had been penetrated or if the charm had been broken or something.

It is not so much speculation at this point, as JKR answered this question:

PotterCast Interviews J.K. Rowling, part one. PotterCast 130, 17 December 2007 SU: Rock. That's so cool. I was glad to hear more about them, the night of their murder, in "Deathly Hallows", but there's still a little bit of confusion about that 24 hours, Jo. How did Dumbledore find out what happened in Godric's Hollow? MA: And what happened, there's this whole 24 hours that's like... People have been fantasizing about for years. JKR: Yeah, I know. You know, I-- I've got a bit of a problem with this myself, because every time I think it straight in my head, I go back and look at what the fans are theorizing about, and I think, yeah, maybe they've got a point. There is an easy answer to "how would Dumbledore know?", because you can-- he... you can, one can... (laughs) Forgive me if I speak as though it's all real for a moment. SU: It is real. What do you mean, it's not? JN: We all do. JKR: That's how I feel as well, yeah, so. Okay. Obviously Dumbledore could cast a charm on a dwelling that would immediately alert him if something happened to it. So he can know instantaneously. That's not a problem at all. And then he could dispatch Hagrid, and so on. But I think The Scottish Book will have to answer that question. I'm gonna have to really go back through notes, and either admit I've lost 24 hours, or, I don't know, hurriedly come up with some back story to fill it. Either way, you either get to be right, or you get more story. So you can't complain.

Of course, it is still debatable how and when Dumbledore cast this security alert charm on the Potter's house in Godric's Hollow (and if the Fidelius Charm would have impacted it at all, given the debatable secret of the Potters' Fidelius Charm). However, JKR did say this on her website:

Jkrowling.com, F.A.Q. Result of F.A.Q. Poll (SPOILER WARNING) What happens to a secret when the Secret-Keeper dies? I was surprised that this question won, because it is not the one that I'd have voted for… but hey, if this is what you want to know, this is what you want to know! When a Secret-Keeper dies, their secret dies with them, or, to put it another way, the status of their secret will remain as it was at the moment of their death. Everybody in whom they confided will continue to know the hidden information, but nobody else. Just in case you have forgotten exactly how the Fidelius Charm works, it is "an immensely complex spell involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find -- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it" (Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban) In other words, a secret (eg, the location of a family in hiding, like the Potters) is enchanted so that it is protected by a single Keeper (in our example, Peter Pettigrew, a.k.a. Wormtail). Thenceforth nobody else – not even the subjects of the secret themselves – can divulge the secret. Even if one of the Potters had been captured, force fed Veritaserum or placed under the Imperius Curse, they would not have been able to give away the whereabouts of the other two. The only people who ever knew their precise location were those whom Wormtail had told directly, but none of them would have been able to pass on the information.

Also, from DH:

DH, Ch. 18, Bathilda's Secret "I don't ... oh!" He could see it; the Fidelius Charm must have died with James and Lily. The hedge had grown wild in the sixteen years since Hagrid had taken Harry from the rubble that lay scattered amongst the waist-high grass. Most of the cottage was still standing, though entirely covered in the dark ivy and snow, but the right side of the top floor had been blown apart; that, Harry was sure, was where the curse had backfired.

From this, Harry seems to be under the impression that the actual cottage in which the Potters were staying was protected by the Fidelius Charm. While the Potters may have been linked to the secret of the Charm as well, the Potters were not the only subjects protected. It is not a case of, as Flitwick suggests, Voldemort being able to walk up to the Potters' window because the house/location itself was part of the secret (I think we can reject this statement by Flitwick because he was simply explaining the Charm and had no affiliation with how the Fidelius Charm was cast with the particular case of the Potters). This is made even more convincing by the idea that James could not leave the house without his Invisibility Cloak. Therefore, the Potters were protected within the boundaries of their home (i.e. a specific location), but not otherwise.

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl

So there wasn't a lot of time between the murders and Harry's rescue; the longer time period was after Harry's rescue and his arrival at the Dursleys. I still think Dumbledore needed to confirm as much information about Voldemort's demise as possible, hide the ruined house from view of muggles, and tend to the burying of Lily & James. Hagrid keeping Harry until Dumbledore gave him the OK to come to the Dursleys makes perfect sense. A lot needed to be done, and nightfall was more discreet for delivering Harry at 4 Privet.

I think this is logical and accurate. Though JKR could not give an answer on the spot, I do think the 24 hours can be explained.

SS/PS, Ch. 1, The Boy Who Lived "My dear Professor, I've never seen a cat sit so stiffly." "You'd be stiff if you'd been sitting on a brick wall all day," said Professor McGonagall. "All day? When you could have been celebrating? I must have passed a dozen feasts and parties on my way here." Professor McGonagall sniffed angrily.

So we know that Dumbledore visited around 12 "feasts and parties," but I think those parties would have been consequences of Dumbledore arranging his plans for Harry and checking on Order members. We know that one Order member, Dedalus Diggle, was likely celebrating, so I think it is reasonable that Dumbledore's visitation of "feasts and parties" was not primarily to celebrate but to speak with and ensure the Order members' (and other wizards/witches') safety. Thus, I think that the conclusion of Dumbledore telling Hagrid to wait safely with Harry until Dumbledore could be certain of everyone's safety and understand the events that had occurred is logical.

[Gwendolen]

Originally Posted by MrSleepyHead

I think it is reasonable that Dumbledore's visitation of "feasts and parties" was not primarily to celebrate but to speak with and ensure the Order members' (and other wizards/witches') safety. Thus, I think that the conclusion of Dumbledore telling Hagrid to wait safely with Harry until Dumbledore could be certain of everyone's safety and understand the events that had occurred is logical.

I think that explanation for the lost 24 hours makes sense. Moody had a picture of the original Order of the Phoenix which was taken the July of Harry's first birthday. One person was killed by Voldemort, which implies the rest were murdered by death eaters. It's possible most of those who died were killed in the chaos after Voldemort went missing, since at least three were attacked afterwards. Dumbledore would have needed time to let everyone know and make arrangements to protect Harry.