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Why couldn't Voldemort kill Harry in the ambush above Privet Drive?



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  #1  
Old October 4th, 2011, 6:49 pm
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Why couldn't Voldemort kill Harry in the ambush above Privet Drive?

This is a thread meant to talk about what could have been the reason that Lucius' wand in Voldemort's hand not killing Harry like Olivander had said should happen?

My belief is that since a part of Voldemort's soul was encased inside Harry, although Harry was unconscious(I believe he was), that it acted in a defensive way protecting itself from being destroyed.

Since(up until Harry) there had never been a living breathing Horcrux shell, that this gave it more control-ability of it's host in ways to protect itself, than would an inanimate object.

Could it be that this is the case of how every time( except for SS) that Voldemort could never kill Harry along side Lily's sacrifice. That Voldemort's soul housed inside Harry was constantly using Harry as a way to protect itself from destruction.
I think this makes for a good discussion, since it could explain some very interesting subjects!


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  #2  
Old October 7th, 2011, 12:07 am
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Re: Why couldn't Voldemort kill Harry in the ambush above Privet Drive?

Olivander wasn't sure if another wand would work. He thought it might work. But then, he didn't know that Harry's wand absorbed some of Voldemort's power during the duel in GOF. It is possible that the "soul" of Voldemort was trying to use Harry to keep itself alive. That could explain why it was able to absorb the power of Voldemort. It seems to me there were a lot of factors involved with the survival of Harry. His mother's sacrifice, Harry's pure love, Voldemort's bit of soul, Harry wasn't an average wizard despite what Snape thought. These helped to protect Harry and enable him to survive.


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Old October 7th, 2011, 12:18 am
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Re: Why couldn't Voldemort kill Harry in the ambush above Privet Drive?

I think Dumbledore's answer to this question, which Harry asks in King's Cross in DH, is fairly clear. Given that JKR generally used Dumbledore to speak facts of the series, I think we can take his explanation as the correct one:
DH, King's Cross“There’s more,” said Harry. “There’s more to it. Why did my wand break the wand he borrowed?”

“As to that, I cannot be sure.”

“Have a guess, then,” said Harry, and Dumbledore laughed.

“What you must understand, Harry, is that you and Lord Voldemort have journeyed together into realms of magic hitherto unknown and untested. But here is what I think happened, and it is unprecedented, and no wandmaker could, I think, ever have predicted or explained it to Voldemort.

“Without meaning to, as you now know, Lord Voldemort doubled the bond between you when he returned to a human form. A part of his soul was still attached to yours, and, thinking to strengthen himself, he took a part of your mother’s sacrifice into himself. If he could only have understood the precise and terrible power of that sacrifice, he would not, perhaps, have dared to touch your blood. . . . But then, if he had been able to understand, he could not be Lord Voldemort, and might never have murdered at all.

“Having ensured this two-fold connection, having wrapped your destinies together more securely than ever two wizards were joined in history, Voldemort proceeded to attack you with a wand that shared a core with yours. And now something very strange happened, as we know. The cores reacted in a way that Lord Voldemort, who never knew that your wand was a twin of his, had ever expected.

“He was more afraid than you were that night, Harry. You had accepted, even embraced, the possibility of death, something Lord Voldemort has never been able to do. Your courage won, your wand overpowered his. And in doing so, something happened between those wands, something that echoed the relationship between their masters.
“I believe that your wand imbibed some of the power and qualities of Voldemort’s wand that night, which is to say that it contained a little of Voldemort himself. So your wand recognized him when he pursued you, recognized a man who was both kin and mortal enemy, and it regurgitated some of his own magic against him, magic much more powerful than anything Lucius’s wand had ever performed. Your wand now contained the power of your enormous courage and of Voldemort’s own deadly skill: What chance did that poor stick of Lucius Malfoy’s stand?”

“But if my wand was so powerful, how come Hermione was able to break it?” asked Harry.

“My dear boy, its remarkable effects were directed only at Voldemort, who had tampered so ill-advisedly with the deepest laws of magic. Only toward him was that wand abnormally powerful. Otherwise it was a wand like any other . . . though a good one, I am sure,” Dumbledore finished kindly.

Thus, it appears that Voldemort's inability to kill Harry with Lucius's wand was due to more to the twin core connection (and Harry's wand's imbibed power) than the soul connection.


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Old October 7th, 2011, 12:26 am
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Re: Why couldn't Voldemort kill Harry in the ambush above Privet Drive?

yes, that's true. but, I still think it is nice to think of the possiblility of a "soul connection". Dumbledore said he wasn't sure. We can discuss this without being sarcastic or anything.


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Old October 7th, 2011, 12:38 am
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Re: Why couldn't Voldemort kill Harry in the ambush above Privet Drive?

To answer the question in the thread title, I don't think Voldemort actually cast the Avada Kedavra on Harry successfully. When he came closest, Harry's wand shot gold flames at him and broke Malfoy's wand and, by the time Voldemort got Selwyn's wand, Harry had already crossed the boundary to the Tonks' house.

IMO, Malfoy's wand would have worked if Harry's hadn't saved him and, if that's the case, we either would have had a dead Harry (depending how important Harry's sacrifice was to him having the choice of going back or not), or we would have had the same scenario as we had in the forbidden forest, with them both collapsing.

Its interesting to think that maybe the part of Voldemort in Harry did somehow cause the wand to act that way, but I think its more likely Dumbledore's explanation is the right one. However, it wouldn't surprise me if the part of Voldemort in Harry made him more determined to get away from Voldemort in their meetings beforehand, and maybe even helped him in some way (such as making him realise he had to stab the diary with a basilisk fang in CoS), as a defence mechanism.


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Old October 7th, 2011, 12:57 am
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Re: Why couldn't Voldemort kill Harry in the ambush above Privet Drive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by merrymarge
yes, that's true. but, I still think it is nice to think of the possiblility of a "soul connection". Dumbledore said he wasn't sure. We can discuss this without being sarcastic or anything.
I intended no sarcasm or negativity in my post. I was merely expressing my allegiance to Dumbledore's guess; I apologize if I appeared derogatory toward the topic in any way.

But my previous post explains my perspective on this subject. Dumbledore explained his hypothesis for why Harry's wand destroyed Lucius', and I find that explanation reasonable, plausible, and accurate. Yes, it is a guess by Dumbledore, but his "guesses have usually been good." And as JKR once said that she generally uses Dumbledore and Hermione to explain the realities of situations, I put my belief in Dumbledore's opinion.

But as Dumbledore says, Voldemort's and Harry's destinies were wrapped "together more securely than ever two wizards were joined in history." Given the complexity of their situation, which involved a twin core connection with their wands, a soul connection, and a blood connection with Lily's sacrifice, I think it can easily be said that nothing is cut-and-dried in their case. So it is certainly possible that Dumbledore's explanation is true but other factors (e.g. the blood connection and/or the soul connection) were at work. But I think the primary factor was the twin core connection and how Harry's wand imbibed some of Voldemort's power and used its sentience to protect Harry - as Dumbledore explained.


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Old October 7th, 2011, 4:39 am
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Re: Why couldn't Voldemort kill Harry in the ambush above Privet Drive?

It took me reading Dd's explaination a few times to understand it originally but it did cross my mind that harry, essentially being a kind of horcrux, subconsciously protected that part of voldemorts soul, and in tern, harry himself when voldy attacked him in the air. Both explainations fit i suppose... I like the idea of harry surviving in the graveyard because of the twin cores and surviving in the ambush over little whinging in th bgining of Dh because of the soul/blood connection ...it makes more sense to me then dds explaination of harrys wand recognizing voldemort (even tho hes using someone elses wand ) and using magic it absorbed and held from the graveyard against him that seems like a stretch.


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Old October 7th, 2011, 5:48 am
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Re: Why couldn't Voldemort kill Harry in the ambush above Privet Drive?

I'm tempted to say "because the plot demanded it," but that doesn't really answer the question.

The horcrux theory is interesting; I'd never thought of Harry's obscene "luck" as being some sort of defense mechanism of the bit of soul inside of him, but it does have an appeal to it. No, it doesn't change the wording of "Voldemort was directly responsible for his inability to kill Harry Potter," but it does change the implications around a lot.

Anyway, what was I saying? Oh, right. Harry's wand did something very unnatural the night of Mad-Eye's Death, and I doubt any wand would ever be able to do that again. There is no reason to suspect that the unique circumstances - a living horcrux, with a wand that has imbibed the powers of its brother, being protected from the person that made him into a horcrux (whose wand happened to be the brother of the living horcrux's wand)... this was as close to a unique situation as possible.

In other words, Harry was wearing three different kinds of plot armor.


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Old October 11th, 2011, 4:04 pm
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Re: Why couldn't Voldemort kill Harry in the ambush above Privet Drive?

All of these are brilliant ideas, and I like how someone brought up Dumbledore's explanation of it. The way I take it is that Dumbledore explain it was the combination of all 3 connections( Blood,Soul, and Wand). It makes sense That this would set it apart that they could be the only ones to kill the other. The Soul connection being the earliest connection to be made, set them apart because they shared Voldemort souls, they basically were in certain terms both a part of Voldemort. Thus why the scar would ache when Voldemort was feeling angry, blood thirsty, or like is SS, when danger was near or when Voldemort was close also. It also lead to the ultimate destruction of Voldemort, because Harry could see how crazed and fearful and scared Voldemort became as he found and felt each Horcrux being detroyed. It meant he was basically Killable, and that he was open to death.
The Wand connection came next in SS, here we must remember that Harry didn't choose the want but that 'The wand chooses the wizard Mr. Potter" as Olivander said. this can explain how Harry didn't die in the Graveyard. Not only because a brother was fighting his brother, but basically you could literally say that Voldemort was fighting himself as well. So of course a brother would be unyielding is told to kill it's brother unless they cold overpower the other. Thus Priori Incantatem. The wand brother's were fighting for dominence. But the Harry's won out because it's master had accepted death. I can also see how Harry's wand could have been imbibed with some of Voldemort's wand. It is like a real brotherhood. If you have an older sibbling, you're basically stuck in their shadow or footsteps, until you match their greatness in teachers, parents, or other peoples eyes, then you basically had become partially them, people see you as your older brother, but still also see you as yourself. So in this aspect, Harry's wand was living in the shadow of Voldemort's who had caused so much terror, destruction, and heart break. But when they were used against each other, Harry's wand had something that Voldemort's didn't, and because of this Harry's wand stepped out of the shadow of Voldemort and bascially ruled the field. Shutting off the link when it choose. That is what I think the bead was in the book/movie. That was not only the certain of the power struggle, but it was also more important than that. Whoever it touched basically it was you could say cloning or impriting part of that wand in itself, thus how Harry's wand stole some of the power from Voldemort, and basically gave itself the exact same advantage on the playing field as Voldemort had already had. We must also remember that the cores of wands are taken from magical creatures, yes they may be in animate objects, but they have a core of magic. This could explain how Harry wands could sense when it was attacked by Voldemort, whether by another wand or by Voldemort's wand, because magic doesn't change as wands change, the strength of the magic does depending on how loyal that wand is to the current holder. But the magic will still be the same it's unique like the person. Plus the part of Voldemort's soul would have known and sensed when it's owner was near, so it could(in certain terms) sense his fury and fervor to destroy it protective case. So it could have also added strength to Harry.
Finally the Blood connection was made in GoF (yea I know I already talked about GoF in depth). Here all you can really is that because of this link, Voldemort insured that Harry basically couldn't die. How it didn't work the other way I'm not entirely certain on that. But because a small amount of Harry's blood was in Voldemort, it meant that Harry was protected still, and again from death by Voldemort.
You combine them all togther, you sorta have the Deathly Hallows in a magic sense. The wands couldn't destroy each other, nor could the owner's destroy each other using separate wands, because of the soul connection. This also made it impossible for Voldemort because he couldn't kill himself( literally voldmert/harry wasn't going to let Voldemort destroy him. And thirdly the Blood connection gave Harry a link to the world of the living, whether he would have come back if this wouldn't have been made I can't tell honestly.But it was there and so Harry not only had a link to his body, but to Voldemort by which he could return.
You add in him(meaning Harry) being the true owner of the Elder wand, he basically was the true master of death without all 3 hallows, He didn't have his cloak, he dropped the stone when entering the forest, and he had basically a 3 layered anti-Voldemort suit of light weight armor. So he was basically set to come out on top, even if he didn't have the elder wand in his control by beating Malfoy, I think there would have been a glimer of hope that he would out due Voldemort.


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Old October 11th, 2011, 6:23 pm
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Re: Why couldn't Voldemort kill Harry in the ambush above Privet Drive?

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Originally Posted by JRIGGS View Post
My guess is that JK Rowling probably figured that to write 7 books on Harry Potter, that she couldn't kill him at the beginning of the first one or there wouldn't be much to write about. It's pretty obvious.
This conversation has nothing to do with the first book. It concerns itself with the fight that takes place in the sky above Privet Drive in the 7th. Had you bothered to read the topic title, that would be pretty obvious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesPotter17 View Post
This is a thread meant to talk about what could have been the reason that Lucius' wand in Voldemort's hand not killing Harry like Olivander had said should happen?
Anyway, my guess is that there is no one thing we can point to as the reason Malfoy's wand was beaten. However, Dumbledore's explanation seems to be the best so far. I've yet to come up with a better conclusion.
Here is what we know from Dumbledore.

• A bond already existed because of the part of his soul attached to Harry
• He doubled the bond when taking Harry's blood
• Harry's wand imbibed power from Voldemort's wand (which shares a core with Harry's) during a previous battle
• Harry's wand seemingly remembered the attacker when Voldemort attempted to use Malfoy's wand, and regurgitated some of that awesome power.

This is the way I've always understood it.


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Old October 11th, 2011, 6:56 pm
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Re: Why couldn't Voldemort kill Harry in the ambush above Privet Drive?

Agreed!


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Old October 12th, 2011, 11:40 am
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Re: Why couldn't Voldemort kill Harry in the ambush above Privet Drive?

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Originally Posted by merrymarge View Post
It is possible that the "soul" of Voldemort was trying to use Harry to keep itself alive.
When I read this sentence it was like a little lightbulb moment. I can't believe I never thought about it this way. It only makes sense that a soul fragment of Voldemort would fight to live (even if unconsciously for Voldemort himself) because that was Voldemort's one and only desire. Why wouldn't the fragment hold the same feelings and help protect itself (and Harry along with it) for the sake of self-preservation?

Quite a brilliant thought, actually. Thank you for mentioning it.

EDIT: Oooh, and congratulations to merrymarge on 1000 days. I just looked back and saw the count.


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Old October 14th, 2011, 9:55 pm
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Re: Why couldn't Voldemort kill Harry in the ambush above Privet Drive?

I suggest we get back on topic and cut the sarcasm. If not I am more then happy to give out warning points and forum bans.


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Old October 15th, 2011, 3:20 am
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Re: Why couldn't Voldemort kill Harry in the ambush above Privet Drive?

Getting a little trigger happy there? It was hardly necessary to remove the entire posts. There was more to it than just "the sarcasm."


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Old October 15th, 2011, 11:02 am
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Re: Why couldn't Voldemort kill Harry in the ambush above Privet Drive?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inigo Imago View Post
When I read this sentence it was like a little lightbulb moment. I can't believe I never thought about it this way. It only makes sense that a soul fragment of Voldemort would fight to live (even if unconsciously for Voldemort himself) because that was Voldemort's one and only desire. Why wouldn't the fragment hold the same feelings and help protect itself (and Harry along with it) for the sake of self-preservation?

Quite a brilliant thought, actually. Thank you for mentioning it.

EDIT: Oooh, and congratulations to merrymarge on 1000 days. I just looked back and saw the count.
I'd never thought about it this way either! and I agree, it's brilliant. It makes perfect sense, considering the other horcruxes fought so hard against being destroyed too


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Old October 15th, 2011, 7:11 pm
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Re: Why couldn't Voldemort kill Harry in the ambush above Privet Drive?

Yes, it does make sense, it's brilliant! It only happened this time because at this point, after the graveyard duel in GOF, even Harry's wand had absorbed some of Voldemort's power so all the tools the piece of soul needed to defend itself against it's own source were there. Harry and Voldemort were bound more tightly together than ever.


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Old October 15th, 2011, 8:13 pm
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Re: Why couldn't Voldemort kill Harry in the ambush above Privet Drive?

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Originally Posted by merrymarge View Post
. It is possible that the "soul" of Voldemort was trying to use Harry to keep itself alive.
This really does make the most, and simplest, sense to me. Harry is semi-conscious, which would be an ideal time for the soul piece to take over. And it fits so well with JKR's theme of love: LV is literally killing himself because of his selfish desire to live forever no matter the cost to anyone else.

Bravo, merrymage!


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Old October 17th, 2011, 10:15 pm
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Re: Why couldn't Voldemort kill Harry in the ambush above Privet Drive?

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I'd never thought about it this way either! and I agree, it's brilliant. It makes perfect sense, considering the other horcruxes fought so hard against being destroyed too
Maybe as well as fighting against being destroyed, the soul piece recognized Voldemort as being the original holder of it, before Harry, and the golden flames were triggered by that. Could it have been fighting to rejoin it's master, and caused the bit of magic performed by an almost unconscious Harry in an attempt to trade Harry for Voldemort?


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Old October 17th, 2011, 10:41 pm
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Re: Why couldn't Voldemort kill Harry in the ambush above Privet Drive?

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Maybe as well as fighting against being destroyed, the soul piece recognized Voldemort as being the original holder of it, before Harry, and the golden flames were triggered by that. Could it have been fighting to rejoin it's master, and caused the bit of magic performed by an almost unconscious Harry in an attempt to trade Harry for Voldemort?
I don't think horcruxes would try to get back to their original soul. We've seen how powerful they are and if they wanted to, I'm pretty sure they could return to ones own soul. There would be know point of making horcruxes if they would just try to return to you.


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Old October 18th, 2011, 9:14 pm
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Re: Why couldn't Voldemort kill Harry in the ambush above Privet Drive?

From what I recall, the soul pieces in the horcruxes can only rejoin the original soul upon the most painful remorse. So I'm thinking it might take a quite a lot more effort on Voldemort's part to put them back together.


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