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Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?



 
 
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  #41  
Old March 17th, 2007, 10:39 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Hi. I think he used the Goblet, because he was sure that Harry or someone else will touch it when they reach it and didn't use any other portkey.


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  #42  
Old March 17th, 2007, 10:52 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Yep, and also, it would be highlt suspicious if harry went into Moody's office, and never came out again

Plus, until the night of the third task, Voldy wasn't ready with the plan.


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  #43  
Old March 17th, 2007, 11:09 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Surprised though I am that this thread is still going, I will make a small interjection.

Reluctant as I am to accept that the Movies give clues, in the instance of the Cup as Portkey I am prepared to override my normal objection.

The function as shown in the film (and in the book) was for the Cup to take Harry to Little Hangleton graveyard for LV's rebirth (part of LV's plan). The return function of the Portkey was then designed to take LV back to the Triwizard Tournament itself in the midst of the spectators.

It has been mentioned already, this part of the plan (the return function) failed to serve it's intended purpose and returned Harry to Tournament (book and film actually) instead of LV.

My view anyway, Byzantine plot as I mentioned in previous. Potion of Regeneration (as far as we were shown in the book) did not appear complex, although I conced its a possibility it was complex.


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  #44  
Old March 17th, 2007, 11:29 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

I think the Portkey was two-way in order to return Harry to the tournament dead. However first, Voldemort did want Harry's blood (to nullify the love protection), and then he wanted Harry dead since Voldemort did know part of the prophecy. In fact, until he had Harry's blood, he didn't dare try to kill Harry. By returning Harry to the tournament dead, it would have looked like Viktor killed Harry, and no one would have been the wiser. And certainly, no one would have thought that Voldemort did it.

But Voldemort was not ready to be revealed to the world yet, so it was not a Portkey for him to use to return to Hogwarts. If that was the case, anything could have been used anytime, supplied by Fake!Moody. In OotP we are told that Harry suceeded in alerting the Order that Voldemort returned before Voldemort could gather followers and strength, and that gave the Order an advantage.
OotP, Chapter 5 "The Order of the Phoenix' 'Because he doesn't want to draw attention to himself,' said Sirius. 'It would be dangerous for him. His comeback didn't come off quite the way he wanted it to, you see. He messed it up.'
'Or rather, you messed it tip for him,' said Lupin, with a satisfied smile.
'How?' Harry asked, perplexed.
'You weren't supposed to survive!' said Sirius. 'Nobody apart from his Death Eaters was supposed to know he'd come back. But you survived to bear witness.'
'And the very last person he wanted alerted to his return the moment he got back was Dumbledore,' said Lupin. 'And you made sure Dumbledore knew at once.'
'How has that helped?' Harry asked.
'Are you kidding?' said Bill incredulously. 'Dumbledore was the only one You-Know-Who was ever scared of!'
Thanks to you, Dumbledore was able to recall the Order of the Phoenix about an hour after Voldemort returned,' said Sirius.


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Last edited by ComicBookWorm; March 18th, 2007 at 10:38 am.
  #45  
Old March 19th, 2007, 5:21 am
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
OotP, Chapter 5 "The Order of the Phoenix' 'Because he doesn't want to draw attention to himself,' said Sirius. 'It would be dangerous for him. His comeback didn't come off quite the way he wanted it to, you see. He messed it up.'
'Or rather, you messed it up for him,' said Lupin, with a satisfied smile.
'How?' Harry asked, perplexed.
'You weren't supposed to survive!' said Sirius. 'Nobody apart from his Death Eaters was supposed to know he'd come back. But you survived to bear witness.'
'And the very last person he wanted alerted to his return the moment he got back was Dumbledore,' said Lupin. 'And you made sure Dumbledore knew at once.'
'How has that helped?' Harry asked.
'Are you kidding?' said Bill incredulously. 'Dumbledore was the only one You-Know-Who was ever scared of!'
Thanks to you, Dumbledore was able to recall the Order of the Phoenix about an hour after Voldemort returned,' said Sirius.
In respect of this quote, perhaps it would be interesting to wonder why Sirius would know about Lord Voldemort's intentions, vis a vis his disappearing after Harry were killed.

Severus his informant, perhaps?


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Last edited by gavina; March 19th, 2007 at 5:25 am. Reason: typo
  #46  
Old March 19th, 2007, 9:36 am
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

It would be easy to make his death look like an accident so the cup was chosen.


  #47  
Old March 19th, 2007, 11:04 am
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gavina View Post
The return function of the Portkey was then designed to take LV back to the Triwizard Tournament itself in the midst of the spectators.
Why would Voldemort want to show up in the middle of hundreds of spectators and risk being captured or injured? Any portkey could have been used to get him on the grounds without such a large (and dangerous) audience since Fake!Moody could have made one for him.

They used Viktor as the fall guy by using the Imperius Curse on him to attack the other contestants, so when they found Harry's body they would suspect Viktor. Otherwise Crouch Jr. could have attacked the other contestants, unseen. He was patrolling the maze and had every opportunity.

We can know that Voldemort didn't want anyone to know he was back, since for an entire year following his rebirth, he did not reveal his presence to the public. It was only after he was spotted at the end of OotP that he started making more public attacks.

And as for how Sirius knew, they could have gotten the information from Barty Crouch Jr. or Snape.


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Last edited by ComicBookWorm; March 19th, 2007 at 11:43 am.
  #48  
Old March 19th, 2007, 2:25 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
Why would Voldemort want to show up in the middle of hundreds of spectators and risk being captured or injured?
Simply because he is an arrogant showman, at least that is my reading of him. His character suggests that he would want to make a grand reappearance before as large an audience as possible, nothing more than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
We can know that Voldemort didn't want anyone to know he was back, since for an entire year following his rebirth, he did not reveal his presence to the public. It was only after he was spotted at the end of OotP that he started making more public attacks.
It is certainly a reasonable inference from that perspective. My analysis is that he would have wanted to make a showy entrance had his plan in GoF succeeded to the letter, which, of course, it did not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComicBookWorm View Post
And as for how Sirius knew, they could have gotten the information from Barty Crouch Jr. or Snape.
Sirius and Snape are hardly likely to discuss a great deal, not exact close friends really. Barty Crouch Jnr. did not reveal the detail relative to how LV was going to act had his plan fully succeeded, that is including Harry's death, which, in my reading, was certainly a part of the plan.

My opinion of course, and others are free to theirs , as suggested by my signature line.


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  #49  
Old March 19th, 2007, 3:05 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Sirius didn't need to hear the information from Snape. He could have heard it from Dumbledore who heard it from Snape. Or Snape could have revealed it in an Order meeting. We have a canon quote, and it wasn't made idly by Sirius. He was discussing it along with Bill, Mr. and Mrs. Weasley, Tonks, and Lupin. I doubt that several members of the Order were all mistaken about this. In fact, they referred to this as being Dumbledore's opinion too.

We also have the logic that it would have been dangerous for Voldemort to appear in front of all those people (including Dumbledore) at the tournament, and Voldemort isn't stupid. Showing off in front of his DEs in a secluded graveyard that he can kill Harry is rather cowardly, not showy. He knew that Harry didn't have the powers or dueling ability he had.

Let's try the entire quote in context. It clearly explains that Harry foiled Voldemort's plans and why.
OotP, Chapter 5 "The Order of the Phoenix''OK, Harry… what do you want to know?'
Harry took a deep breath and asked the question that had obsessed him for the last month.
'Where's Voldemort?' he said, ignoring the renewed shudders and winces at the name. 'What's he doing? I've been trying to watch the Muggle news, and there hasn't been anything that looks like him yet, no funny deaths or anything.'
That's because there haven't been any funny deaths yet,' said Sirius, 'not as far as we know, anyway… and we know quite a lot.'
'More than he thinks we do, anyway,' said Lupin.
'How come he's stopped killing people?' Harry asked. He knew Voldemort had murdered more than once in the last year alone.
'Because he doesn't want to draw attention to himself,' said Sirius. 'It would be dangerous for him. His comeback didn't come off quite the way he wanted it to, you see. He messed it up.'
'Or rather, you messed it tip for him,' said Lupin, with a satisfied smile.
'How?' Harry asked, perplexed.
'You weren't supposed to survive!' said Sirius. 'Nobody apart from his Death Eaters was supposed to know he'd come back. But you survived to bear witness.'
'And the very last person he wanted alerted to his return the moment he got back was Dumbledore,' said Lupin. 'And you made sure Dumbledore knew at once.'
'How has that helped?' Harry asked.
'Are you kidding?' said Bill incredulously. 'Dumbledore was the only one You-Know-Who was ever scared of!'
Thanks to you, Dumbledore was able to recall the Order of the Phoenix about an hour after Voldemort returned,' said Sirius.
'So, what's the Order been doing?' said Harry, looking around at them all.
'Working as hard as we can to make sure Voldemort can't carry out his plans,' said Sirius.
'How d'you know what his plans are?' Harry asked quickly.
'Dumbledore's got a shrewd idea,' said Lupin, 'and Dumbledore's shrewd ideas normally turn out to be accurate.'
'So what does Dumbledore reckon he's planning?'
'Well, firstly, he wants to build up his army again,' said Sirius. 'In the old days he had huge numbers at his command: witches and wizards he'd bullied or bewitched into following him, his faithful Death Eaters, a great variety of Dark creatures. You heard him planning to recruit the giants; well, they'll be just one of the groups he's after. He's certainly not going to try and take on the Ministry of Magic with only a dozen Death Eaters.'
Nor would he use a portkey to plant himself (alone, no less) in front of half the ministry and Dumbledore, not to mention how many other talented adult wizards.

He wanted to kill Harry and not set off any manhunts for him or anyone else. So if Harry was supposedly killed by Viktor, no one would be the wiser. Otherwise they wouldn't have needed to set Viktor up as the fall guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gavina View Post
My opinion of course, and others are free to theirs , as suggested by my signature line.
But some opinions have stronger canon support than others. I have a rather long passage in OotP to support my opinion. BTW, this is settled canon. There is nothing that will be changed or gained by learning another reason why the portkey was two-way. This is the canon explanation. We can't shoot it down by claiming that Sirius was mistaken (especially since the room was filled with Order members who all agreed with Sirius), because otherwise, we would need a good reason for this to be incorrect. We have a rather long passage explaining it. If we hadn't been given that passage, things might be different.


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Last edited by ComicBookWorm; March 20th, 2007 at 5:08 am.
  #50  
Old April 8th, 2007, 7:41 am
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Using the Tri-Wizard Cup accomplished a lot of things for Voldemort - apart from a Byzantine plot and an extra 600 pages of Potter drama.

It was predictable - They knew it was coming and that they could arrange for Harry to be the one to touch it first. Not only was Barty Jr. helping him, but so were his friends and teachers. They were all so concerned that someone wanted him in the competition so he'd be killed that they were all working to help him win. In that light, when Harry touched the cup, traveled to the grave yard, and was transported back dead, their fears would have been confirmed. Whoever put his name in the cup got what they were after - Harry died in the competition. No suspicion raised - Voldemort is free to operate in secret the way he likes it - out of the public eye and without Ministry interference. They'd probably be off trying to pin Harry's murder on Sirus Black.

Voldemort and Barty Jr. knew the three tasks based on info they got from Jorkins and also from Barty Sr. They were also controlling him for a long stretch of the year until he escaped and was murdered by his son. In the bigger picture of Voldemorts return to power, controlling a high level ministry official would have been worth the wait to get to Harry.

Barty Jr. only planned on staying a year however - so I think he was supposed to see this plot through and then return to Voldemort's service - not as Moody, but as Barty.

I also like what people are saying about the portkey creation. The portkeys we've seen used, apart from the Tri-Wizard Cup, were either created by the ministry or Dumbledore. And the ones we've seen Dumbledore make departed from or arrived in his office. I think there's something significant about the teapot portkey creation when the Weasleys and Harry went to 12 Grimauld. Dumbledore sent Phineas Nigellus to ask permission for the destination from Sirius. Perhaps you can't make a portkey without permission from the destination - so a portkey to Hogwarts would take Dumbledore's approval, and that's what keeps enemies from being able to portkey onto the grounds. Since Barty Jr. was already on the grounds it's likely he was able to make it a round trip portkey without Dumbledore's permission. ? Food for thought.

I have to agree that the return trip was intended for a lifeless Potter. No way would someone presumed dead for 14 years, newly returned to physical form, and struggling for supporters pop up in front of his most feared and hated enemy and the heads of the Ministry to announce his return. Sure he'd scare them all - but he'd also alert them all and mobilize not only the Order, but the Ministry and the rest of the wizarding world.


  #51  
Old April 8th, 2007, 8:29 am
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

The triwizard Cup portkey had the return function simply to return Harry's body back into the maze. Then, there would be no evidence at all harry ever left the maze. it was designed to keep secret Voldemort's return.


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  #52  
Old April 8th, 2007, 3:53 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

One other question on this subject: Wouldn't the people watching the task realize that Harry had disappeared for some time? Weren't the spectators sitting up in the Quidditch seats? Couldn't they see into the maze? Harry was away for a fairly long time. Wouldn't they notice?


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  #53  
Old April 8th, 2007, 5:35 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HerbProfNeville View Post

It was predictable - They knew it was coming and that they could arrange for Harry to be the one to touch it first. Not only was Barty Jr. helping him, but so were his friends and teachers. They were all so concerned that someone wanted him in the competition so he'd be killed that they were all working to help him win.
with the third task, they had a reasonable degree of assurance that harry would get there first, especially with putting krum under the imperius curse and stunning fleur. but if harry had been kept thirty seconds longer battling a skrewt or sphinx, cedric would just have taken the cup. it wasn't foolproof. what would've been more foolproof would have just passed harry in an empty hall and slipped him a portkey? harry wasn't supposed to come back alive, so it wouldn't have ruined moody's disguise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sllagnire View Post
One other question on this subject: Wouldn't the people watching the task realize that Harry had disappeared for some time? Weren't the spectators sitting up in the Quidditch seats? Couldn't they see into the maze? Harry was away for a fairly long time. Wouldn't they notice?
and wouldn't they have noticed when two of the contestants dissapeared in "a howl of wind and swirling color" and both be lifted off the ground? maybe the walls of the maze were too high, but it still seems hard to beleive. what would the spectators have been doing there if they couldn't watch the event? so lets assume they could see them.

actually, here's some canon:
Quote:
he had come back to the edge of the maze.
so the portkey didn't return him to the center, it returned him to the edge.


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  #54  
Old April 8th, 2007, 5:47 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

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Originally Posted by magicalmysteryg View Post
and wouldn't they have noticed when two of the contestants dissapeared in "a howl of wind and swirling color" and both be lifted off the ground? maybe the walls of the maze were too high, but it still seems hard to beleive. what would the spectators have been doing there if they couldn't watch the event? so lets assume they could see them.
Honestly, I think the howl of wind and swirling color is just visible to Harry and Cedric. But if it is not possible for spectators to see what is going on in the maze, what is the point of spectators. I know that in the movie, the spectators seem to only be at the entrance to the maze, but what is the point of that? The maze could go on for hours. Why would you want to watch that if no one knew what was going on? And how would they know say if a student had died and didn't get to send up red sparks in time? It seems that someone (other than Moody, of course, as we know he was on the bad side anyway) would have to have been able to see what was going on in the maze and notice that Harry and Cedric suddenly went missing.


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  #55  
Old April 9th, 2007, 3:33 am
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sllagnire View Post
Honestly, I think the howl of wind and swirling color is just visible to Harry and Cedric. But if it is not possible for spectators to see what is going on in the maze, what is the point of spectators.
Nice sig line, btw.

This has come up before. One of the reasons that many think canon is open to interpretation and should not be considered as rigid lore. It also made no sense to have spectators for the second task in the lake. How could they see the bottom where the merpeople reside?

Unless there's some kind of CCTV of which we are so far unaware, but that is extremely implausible.

Speculation is often better than accumulation I find

My earlier suggestion of LV appearing in the maze was simply speculation, a little fun, if you like.

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Last edited by gavina; April 9th, 2007 at 3:39 am.
  #56  
Old April 9th, 2007, 3:34 am
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gavina View Post
Nice sig line, btw.
Thanks. know where its from by any chance?


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  #57  
Old April 9th, 2007, 4:02 am
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

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Originally Posted by sllagnire View Post
Thanks. know where its from by any chance?
The Music Man, it was vaguely familiar, but I looked it up.

"I don't know about you, but I'd like to make today worth remembering."

As it continues


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  #58  
Old April 10th, 2007, 10:06 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

I suppose Voldemort wanted to show how clever he was by doing it in front of everyone at the maze, which is alot, and doing it right under everyone's nose just to show off.


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Old April 11th, 2007, 9:54 am
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Voldemort didn't want anyone to know he was back yet. Harry ruined that by surviving. We were told that by Sirius and a roomful of Order members in OotP.

He wanted Harry's blood and he wanted Harry dead, and he didn't want anyone to know he was back yet. They set up Viktor to take the blame for Harry's death. He had already attacked Cedric. The idea was to kill Harry and send him back to the maze, and then poor Viktor would be blamed. Then Voldemort could work in secret gaining followers and power until he was ready to reveal himself.


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  #60  
Old April 11th, 2007, 12:52 pm
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Re: Why didn't Voldemort use some other Portkey in GoF?

Whatever was supposed to have happened or what was planned to have happened or otherwise is hardly likely to be revealed in DH, and consequently will be of little interest to the conclusion of the series.


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