James Potter: Character Analysis v.4

[kittling]

Originally Posted by eliza101

I am basing my opinion on the reaction to his death and Lily's just after it had occurred from McGonagol who was genuinely grieved at the deaths. I also don't see what was so bad about James' behaviour. We don't know that he was running the grounds after he was made Head Boy. I would have thought after the Shack incident with Sirius and Snape, Dumbledore would be keeping a sharper eye out for that kind of behaviour.

Well that's a fair point I guess but it does mean that we can't really do anything other than make assumptions about it after the shack incident as there is no cannon one way or the other.

However I think McGonagall would have wept over the murder of almost any of her pupils – to me that says more about her to be honest.

I also thought that the little prequel showed him in a pretty good light. Taking out the DE's and having a good time doing it.

Well we disagree then - I agree fighting against DE's was a good thing to do, but I really have problems with how he & Sirius treated the muggle they came across. As well as the points Annie brings up - and to me those were a big issue. To me it smacks of their bullying behaviour at school and as they are fighting against a group that were pure blood supremacist and James was related to muggles – I would have hoped he would treat them, esp a police officer, with a little more respect (not to mention the statutes about secrecy) but as it is clear we don’t agree on that I guess we should agree to differ.

I'm not saying that he was an angel, far from it, but I don't think he should be condemned for being a fool at 15 either.

I hoped I had made it clear in my last post that I was not condemning James for being a fool at 15 when I wrote:-

Originally Posted by kittling

I want to believe that James changed but I'm not sure I see any cannon evidence and I was willing to go along with what his mates said about him until I read JKR's prequel which looked to me like the same old behaviour - I just couldn't see any change

As I said it is cannon about his later behaviour, or at the very least JKR’s own writing, that has shaped my opinion – if anyone can show me some cannon that would alow me to go back to my pre-prequel opinion that would be great

[TreacleTartlet]

Originally Posted by kittling

.
Also I think we should bear in mind that while Lily did tell James off during SWM many reader have commented on her flirting with James, an idea that JKR herself has indicated to be a fair reflection of Lily’s behaviour – so I don’t think it is particularly accurate to say Lily loathed James in the 5th year his behaviour certainly didn’t seem to make her particularly impressed (although she did fight a smile when her friend was being hung upside down so I don’t know if I could say anything mush stronger than ‘not particularly impressed’)

That's correct, according to Sirius, Lily didn't loath James.

OotP,Career's Advice

'How come she married him?' Harry asked miserably. 'She hated him!'
Nah, she didn't,' said Sirius.

[arithmancer]

McGonagall expresses her opinion of James exactly once that I can recall, in PoA.

PoA "Precisely," said Professor McGonagall. "Black and Potter. Ringleaders of their little gang. Both very bright, of course -- exceptionally bright, in fact -- but I don't think we've ever had such a pair of trouble-makers --"

This is not modified with any physical description; if said neutrally, I would not consider this to be the expression of a particularly high opinion of his character.

[eliza101]

Originally Posted by Annielogic

I think some fans feel unease because James and Sirius left Muggles to deal with unconscious DE's (if they were DE's and not Ministry officials or someone else?), who don't like Muggles and likely to be unhappy when they wake up. The Muggle policemen have no idea what these people are capable of.

I think the prequel does indeed show a great strong, loyal friendship between James and Sirius, certainly a zest for adventure and fun.

I always thought that the MOM would step in to take care of the DE's. They had to be good for something after all.

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by eliza101

I always thought that the MOM would step in to take care of the DE's. They had to be good for something after all.

I wonder where they were, then?

About that monument to James, Lily, and also Harry who didn't die, but who was included in the statue because they died protecting him as martyrs. It's like an almost religious shrine for people to visit in a small town, and considering the state of the front yard at Godric's Hollow with the nettles and weeds growing there, not many people are visiting it anymore.

Maybe that's JKR making a statement on fleeting fame again, or maybe it's to help us realize how many other people besides the Potters died in VoldieWar One who were not around to visit, but I don't see the monument as proof of goodness or anything else, imo. I think we have to look at it in light of the statues at the MOM, which are beautiful but are not the truth, anymore than the Mirror of Erised is the truth. James and Lily didn't really have halos white as snow, and it seemed to me that Harry felt closer to them at their graves than in front of the statue.

I think JKR wanted to show that time marches on and Harry and his children were the actual living monument to the Potters. JMO

[eliza101]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

I wonder where they were, then?

About that monument to James, Lily, and also Harry who didn't die, but who was included in the statue because they died protecting him as martyrs. It's like an almost religious shrine for people to visit in a small town, and considering the state of the front yard at Godric's Hollow with the nettles and weeds growing there, not many people are visiting it anymore.

Maybe that's JKR making a statement on fleeting fame again, or maybe it's to help us realize how many other people besides the Potters died in VoldieWar One who were not around to visit, but I don't see the monument as proof of goodness or anything else, imo. I think we have to look at it in light of the statues at the MOM, which are beautiful but are not the truth, anymore than the Mirror of Erised is the truth. James and Lily didn't really have halos white as snow, and it seemed to me that Harry felt closer to them at their graves than in front of the statue.

I think JKR wanted to show that time marches on and Harry and his children were the actual living monument to the Potters. JMO

Well, like coppers the MOM is never there when you need them.
I just reread the prequel and James and Sirius don't leave the policemen unconcious. The impression I got from the story was that Jo was having a bit of fun and I don't think she meant it to be taken so serious. Just my opinion on that of course.
If we agree to disagree on the truth of the monument to James, Lily and Harry that's fine as well. I tend to think that if people go to the trouble of erecting a memorial when they don't have to there must have been something worthwhile about the people they erect it to. Perhaps the WW in general don't think that acting like a berk in school and having high spirits and a happy and generous disposion in general is such a bad thing. And Snape, who seems to have been the only enemy James made in school, probably wasn't consulted.

[Annielogic]

Originally Posted by eliza101

Well, like coppers the MOM is never there when you need them.
I just reread the prequel and James and Sirius don't leave the policemen unconcious.

Just to clarify, no one said the Muggle policemen were left unconcious. The three people flying broomsticks who smashed into the policemen car were left unconcious, the Muggle policemen would likely take them into custody or to hospital, whatever is custom and practice, if no Ministry Officials show up. If they do, then I guess the Muggle policemen will end up having their minds tampered with to forget the incident. The three DE's in question are going wake up at some point (if they weren't killed by the impact). Imo.

Originally Posted by eliza101

The impression I got from the story was that Jo was having a bit of fun and I don't think she meant it to be taken so serious.

True, I suspect so also. As I said before, it did give us an insight into the close brotherly relationship between James and Sirius, and how their humour plays of each other and how they work together. We also got to see the flying motorbike again, which was brilliant. Nevertheless, it is an episode which is part of the Harry Potter series and takes place, according to JKR, around three years before Harry was born.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

About that monument to James, Lily, and also Harry who didn't die, but who was included in the statue because they died protecting him as martyrs. It's like an almost religious shrine for people to visit in a small town, and considering the state of the front yard at Godric's Hollow with the nettles and weeds growing there, not many people are visiting it anymore.

Maybe that's JKR making a statement on fleeting fame again, or maybe it's to help us realize how many other people besides the Potters died in VoldieWar One who were not around to visit, but I don't see the monument as proof of goodness or anything else, imo. I think we have to look at it in light of the statues at the MOM, which are beautiful but are not the truth, anymore than the Mirror of Erised is the truth.

[staff edit] I would have to agree with Eliza though; I think JKR meant for the grounds to remain untouched and the statue built out of love and respect for the Potters, based on who they were and how the WW felt about them in general.

Originally Posted by Annielogic

Just to clarify, no one said the Muggle policemen were left unconcious. The three people flying broomsticks who smashed into the policemen car were left unconcious, the Muggle policemen would likely take them into custody or to hospital, whatever is custom and practice. If no Ministry Officials show up, if they do, then I guess the Muggle policemen will end up having their minds tampered with to forget the incident. The three DE's in question are going wake up at some point (if they weren't killed by the impact). Imo.

They saw the flying motorbike and spells and all kinds of things. So I would say that was a job for the MOM, lol - that department they have where Ron's dad worked would have to come down and wipe memories/clean up the mess/bag the bad guys.

[Annielogic]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

They saw the flying motorbike and spells and all kinds of things. So I would say that was a job for the MOM, lol - that department they have where Ron's dad worked would have to come down and wipe memories/clean up the mess/bag the bad guys.

I guess if they're underage it would make it easier for the MoM to trace the use of Magic in front of Muggles. There seems to be some confusion (Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions thread) about how some cases of wizards using magic in front of Muggles is found out by the MoM.

[ccollinsmith]

Originally Posted by Annielogic

I guess if they're underage it would make it easier for the MoM to trace the use of Magic in front of Muggles. There seems to be some confusion (Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions thread) about how some cases of wizards using magic in front of Muggles is found out by the MoM.

If they were 17, though, it would be harder to trace.

Actually, aside from the passage in Godric's Hollow where James screams at Lily to take the baby and run, this is the only incident I've read where James does not remind me much of the the hardcore Severus-tormening Marauder.

This little prank actually reminded me more of the Weasley twins - particularly in the way that James and Sirius played off each other. The dialog just sounded so very like Fred and George.

Did anybody else hear Weasley echoes in that dialog? Or am I "hearing" things?

Note: not trying to derail into a Weasley thread... but placing in context of other pranksters.

[Annielogic]

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

This little prank actually reminded me more of the Weasley twins - particularly in the way that James and Sirius played off each other. The dialog just sounded so very like Fred and George.

Did anybody else hear Weasley echoes in that dialog? Or am I "hearing" things?

Yes, I got a similar vibe when I said above about the "close brotherly relationship between James and Sirius, and how their humour plays of each other". They seem to know what the other is thinking, humour and action, and how to react according, so they're effectively playing off each other with a joke, or acting in sync.

[ccollinsmith]

Originally Posted by Annielogic

Yes, I got a similar vibe when I said above about the "close brotherly relationship between James and Sirius, and how their humour plays of each other". They seem to know what the other is thinking, humour and action, and how to reaction according, so they're effectively playing off each other with a joke, or acting in sync.

LOL. I missed the nuances of the second part of your earlier post.

So I'm not imagining it, then.

[wickedwickedboy]

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

If they were 17, though, it would be harder to trace.

Actually, aside from the passage in Godric's Hollow where James screams at Lily to take the baby and run, this is the only incident I've read where James does not remind me much of the the hardcore Severus-tormening Marauder.

This is not reflective of James' character, imo. He was a victim to the same extent when young and moreso when older - he just carried it off better, and then died, so it was reflected distinctly in the canon, imo.

[ccollinsmith]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

This is not reflective of James' character, imo. He was a victim to the same extent when young and moreso when older - he just carried it off better, and then died, so it was reflected distinctly in the canon, imo.

I honestly have no idea what you mean here. Would you care to elucidate?

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

This little prank actually reminded me more of the Weasley twins - particularly in the way that James and Sirius played off each other. The dialog just sounded so very like Fred and George.

Did anybody else hear Weasley echoes in that dialog? Or am I "hearing" things?

Note: not trying to derail into a Weasley thread... but placing in context of other pranksters.

Yes, the author does seem to be channeling Gred and Forge in this scene. Plus they give us one of my favorite things, actually - the name "Elvendork." I guess Jirius and Sames weren't enamored of Tolkien, eh?

[ccollinsmith]

Originally Posted by silver ink pot

Yes, the author does seem to be channeling Gred and Forge in this scene. Plus they give us one of my favorite things, actually - the name "Elvendork." I guess Jirius and Sames weren't enamored of Tolkien, eh?

Elvendork is really funny. But would our pureblood Wizard boys know who Tolkien was? Maybe they were thinking of house elves.

[silver ink pot]

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith

Elvendork is really funny. But would our pureblood Wizard boys know who Tolkien was? Maybe they were thinking of house elves.

For some reason, I didn't think of that! But it all makes sense if they were thinking of Kreacher.

[snapes_witch]

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy

This is not reflective of James' character, imo. He was a victim to the same extent when young and moreso when older - he just carried it off better, and then died, so it was reflected distinctly in the canon, imo.

An example of James Potter's victimhood whilst at Hogwarts, if you please.

[eliza101]

Originally Posted by snapes_witch

An example of James Potter's victimhood whilst at Hogwarts, if you please.

Both Sirius and Lupin tell Harry about how Snape was constantly following them around and spying on them before the Shack incident. That was the main reason that Sirius told him how to get into the tunnel. Sirius thought (wrongly IMO) that someone should tell Severus what he was so desperate to find out. Then when Lily and James start going out he is constantly hexes James. That is how it is put in canon and it is never contradicted so it must stand that Snape does this. Even if James is strong mentally, such contant harassment from the same source does fall underneath the aegis of bullying. SWM is a horrendous example of bullying on James and Sirius' part. It doesn't excuse Snape's later behaviour. The fact that James', apart from basic defense tolerates this behaviour and doesn't tell Lily reflects well on him. IMO. Snape at this time is just a petty harrassment to James, but constantly being on the lookout for the harrassment must have been wearing.

[Annielogic]

I found their great dislike of being spied on or tracked very ironic, in some respects. They invented the Marauder's Map in which they could track and spy on every resident of Hogwarts. Also, enabling them to monitor or play 'pranks' on with the added security of James's invisibility cloak. This isn't unusual, we do see various young characters (actually even the adults) do things to others, but take exception and criticize when done to themselves or people they like. I feel, this is a great aspect of JKR's work, she shows amazing greyness to her character's actions and situations. James Potter in no exception here, despite the fact he barely appears in the series compared to more prominent characters.