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Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4



 
 
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  #181  
Old August 4th, 2011, 3:01 am
Amethyst78  Female.gif Amethyst78 is offline
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by ILuvDarkMarks View Post
It might be different when a snake is speaking as opposed to a person. Dumbledore would be able to listen and understand a person speaking Parseltongue, just like how Ron could listen to Harry speaking it. But since Dumbledore isn't a Parselmouth he might not be able to hear the words from a snake itself.
That's a good point


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  #182  
Old August 4th, 2011, 3:06 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by hpfan101 View Post
I noticed this as well, and although I agree with you, I feel the actual interesting part of this is that fake-Moody, whom we now know was Barty Crouch, a Death Eater who clearly wanted harm to befall on Harry, actually did two things that HELPED Harry.

The first was of course as you mentioned, he kept subjecting Harry to the Imperius Curse until Harry could throw it off completely. This helped Harry when Voldemort used "Imperio" on him in the graveyard. So why did a Death Eater who wanted Harry to end up dead actually teach him how to do this?

The second was that he gave Harry the idea for a career as an Auror. Interesting, again, that he was so helpful to Harry. Although I get that he wanted to gain Harry's trust, I don't think either action was necessary for that trust.
I don't think that it was just one character's trust which it was necessary for him to obtain, though. In order for him to remain undercover for an entire school year, he had to have everybody believing him to be Moody. If, in a classroom setting, he scrapped a topic as soon as the first student began to succeed, it would have been extremely odd.

As for the second point, I don't think that this really was of any benefit to Harry in Moody's eyes. According to the plan, Harry would be dead before the end of the year, so it made no difference what sort of plans he had for after graduation from Hogwarts three years down the road. I believe this may well have been done for the staff's benefit. I wouldn't be surprised if Dumbledore or McGonagall had asked him to talk to Harry about it, given his experience in the Auror office. In that case, it would have looked extremely odd if he hadn't. Perhaps he simply felt that given his experience as an Auror, it would look odd in itself to not talk to Harry, the best DADA student in his year.


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  #183  
Old August 4th, 2011, 3:11 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by Lysrothtuck View Post
Yes, it was. But I don't believe it's explained how he knows it (though it is referenced throughout the books that Ron is pretty good at impersonating voices).
He told Harry and Hermione that he'd remembered what Harry had 'said' when he opened the locket. It took Ron several tries, but he finally got it right and the Chamber opened.


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  #184  
Old August 4th, 2011, 3:13 am
Amethyst78  Female.gif Amethyst78 is offline
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

I feel like we never really got to know the real Mad-Eye-Moody....


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  #185  
Old August 4th, 2011, 3:20 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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I don't think that it was just one character's trust which it was necessary for him to obtain, though. In order for him to remain undercover for an entire school year, he had to have everybody believing him to be Moody. If, in a classroom setting, he scrapped a topic as soon as the first student began to succeed, it would have been extremely odd
Yeah, but he wasn't SUPPOSED to teach them the unforgivable curses. It's not like it was in the lesson plan and he just went with it instead of skipping them. He purposely went out of his way to teach Harry and his friends how to throw off the Imperius curse.


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Old August 4th, 2011, 3:22 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by Amethyst78 View Post
I feel like we never really got to know the real Mad-Eye-Moody....
Considering Barty, Jr. did such a good job of imitating Moody that he fooled one of Moody's best friends (DD), I think what we did see was remarkably true to the real Moody.


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  #187  
Old August 4th, 2011, 3:31 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by DawnDraconis View Post
Yeah, but he wasn't SUPPOSED to teach them the unforgivable curses. It's not like it was in the lesson plan and he just went with it instead of skipping them. He purposely went out of his way to teach Harry and his friends how to throw off the Imperius curse.
I actually think that Crouch was just hoping to teach to his strengths. He couldn't very well teach them things with which he had no experience.


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  #188  
Old August 4th, 2011, 4:00 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

Didn't his father use the Imperius curse on him to lock him in the house? He probably developed a serious complex towards the 3 curses. That could be a contributing factor as to why he was so anal about them in class...


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  #189  
Old August 4th, 2011, 4:26 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by hpfan101 View Post
The first was of course as you mentioned, he kept subjecting Harry to the Imperius Curse until Harry could throw it off completely. This helped Harry when Voldemort used "Imperio" on him in the graveyard. So why did a Death Eater who wanted Harry to end up dead actually teach him how to do this?

The second was that he gave Harry the idea for a career as an Auror. Interesting, again, that he was so helpful to Harry. Although I get that he wanted to gain Harry's trust, I don't think either action was necessary for that trust.
I doubt that Imperio was ever really in the plan for the graveyard. It just seemed like Voldemort having a bit of fun, trying to make Harry play along in the duel. And there's no way Crouch could have forseen that. And as far as fun, I figure that's what it was when he was teaching the student's Unforgivable Curses. It seems like the thing a Death Eater would do, have fun with it. And what better way than teaching them how to do the very worst spells, and then Imperiusing them. And I don't think he cared so much about gaining Harry's trust, as he did making sure Harry got through the tournament on top. So in case Karkaroff or any of the other competition tried anything on Harry, Crouch wanted to make sure he could throw it off. Because his whole purpose was getting Harry to the cup first.


  #190  
Old August 4th, 2011, 4:32 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by Lysrothtuck View Post
Yes, it was. But I don't believe it's explained how he knows it (though it is referenced throughout the books that Ron is pretty good at impersonating voices).
In the book I think Ron tells Harry he used the same hissy sound he heard Harry speak when opening the locket.


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  #191  
Old August 4th, 2011, 4:49 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by hpfan101 View Post
I noticed this as well, and although I agree with you, I feel the actual interesting part of this is that fake-Moody, whom we now know was Barty Crouch, a Death Eater who clearly wanted harm to befall on Harry, actually did two things that HELPED Harry.

The first was of course as you mentioned, he kept subjecting Harry to the Imperius Curse until Harry could throw it off completely. This helped Harry when Voldemort used "Imperio" on him in the graveyard. So why did a Death Eater who wanted Harry to end up dead actually teach him how to do this?

The second was that he gave Harry the idea for a career as an Auror. Interesting, again, that he was so helpful to Harry. Although I get that he wanted to gain Harry's trust, I don't think either action was necessary for that trust.
I believe both were to gain trust and influence with harry. He needed harry to be able to survive the tasks and for barty to be able to lead him on without much suspicion . Yelling harry that he should be an auror definitely worked at gaining influence since harry thought Mad-Eye was one when he said that. Also Barty had to play the part of psychotic Moody.


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  #192  
Old August 4th, 2011, 5:29 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by Lysrothtuck View Post
Yes, it was. But I don't believe it's explained how he knows it (though it is referenced throughout the books that Ron is pretty good at impersonating voices).
It doesn't specifically explain it; however, we see Harry use parseltongue to say the word "open" when they're destroying the locket. That experience was so intense for Ron that the memory would be strong. Hermione does say that Ron had to try a couple of times before he got it exactly right for the door in the Chamber to open.


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  #193  
Old August 4th, 2011, 6:50 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
It doesn't specifically explain it; however, we see Harry use parseltongue to say the word "open" when they're destroying the locket. That experience was so intense for Ron that the memory would be strong. Hermione does say that Ron had to try a couple of times before he got it exactly right for the door in the Chamber to open.
I think you make a good point. Looking back, Harry specifically tells Ron that he is going to tell the locket to open, and like you say, that whole passage after the locket opened would probably stick in Ron's mind for a very long time. On top of that, it was only mere months (weeks? I'm too lazy to properly check) before the Battle of Hogwarts, and combining all that with the fact that Ron is a good impersonator and the fact that he had a few cracks at it before succeeding, I find the passage perfectly reasonable.


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  #194  
Old August 4th, 2011, 5:19 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

Sorry if this has already been asked--if it has, and it very well might have, I'm sorry, I just wanted to post this before I forget--but why was Sirius taken away to Azkaban in the first place? Wouldn't the dementors/other people (I know he didn't get a trial) see that he didn't have the Dark Mark on his forearm, and therefore could never have been associated with Voldemort (Sirius doesn't know what Harry's talking about what when he tells him Karkaroff showed Snape something on his arm, and Moody-Crouch says to Snape "There are spots that never come off," so it's not like Sirius could have taken off a Dark Mark he might have once had)?

EDIT: Also, Dumbledore or Sirius never would have seen Pettigrew's Dark Mark before Lily and James were killed, or Harry never saw it that night in the Shrieking Shack in PoA and learned what it was then? I suppose a possible reason could have been that Voldemort would have given Wormtail one after the murders of the Potters; only after he had killed them might he have been convinced of Wormtail's "loyalty"...

Also, wouldn't the crowd watching the third task have seen Moody-Crouch blasting away Harry's obstacles and cursing the other champions? Again, apologies if this has already been posted...

(If you couldn't tell, I'm rereading GoF... )

EDIT 2: And why couldn't they see Harry and Cedric disappearing? Maybe they could, I don't know...



Last edited by Fireice; August 4th, 2011 at 9:04 pm.
  #195  
Old August 4th, 2011, 10:16 pm
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by Fireice View Post
Sorry if this has already been asked--if it has, and it very well might have, I'm sorry, I just wanted to post this before I forget--but why was Sirius taken away to Azkaban in the first place? Wouldn't the dementors/other people (I know he didn't get a trial) see that he didn't have the Dark Mark on his forearm, and therefore could never have been associated with Voldemort (Sirius doesn't know what Harry's talking about what when he tells him Karkaroff showed Snape something on his arm, and Moody-Crouch says to Snape "There are spots that never come off," so it's not like Sirius could have taken off a Dark Mark he might have once had)?

EDIT: Also, Dumbledore or Sirius never would have seen Pettigrew's Dark Mark before Lily and James were killed, or Harry never saw it that night in the Shrieking Shack in PoA and learned what it was then? I suppose a possible reason could have been that Voldemort would have given Wormtail one after the murders of the Potters; only after he had killed them might he have been convinced of Wormtail's "loyalty"...

Also, wouldn't the crowd watching the third task have seen Moody-Crouch blasting away Harry's obstacles and cursing the other champions? Again, apologies if this has already been posted...

(If you couldn't tell, I'm rereading GoF... )

EDIT 2: And why couldn't they see Harry and Cedric disappearing? Maybe they could, I don't know...
I don't think the workings of Voldemorts inner circle were common knowledge at the height of his power. People were too scared. The only people who would have known about the Dark Mark were the Death Eaters themselves. it doesn't seem like they are common knowledge until after Harry witnesses Voldemorts return. When Karkaroff comes to talk to Snape and shows his something on his arm, none of the trio know what it is. And, like you said, neither does Sirius. But Sirius was in the the Order, so if the Order or the Ministry had known about Dark Marks then Sirius would have known too. Therefore, they wouldn't have been looking for a Dark Mark when they arrested Sirius. Also remember that Crouch Sr. was power hungry, and I'm sure few actual Death Eater's were caught during their master's reign. So even if Crouch Sr. knew about Dark Marks, he wouldn't have cared. All the evidence was that Sirius committed the crime, and sending him to Azkaban was good for Crouch's reputation. I think the whole thing about Sirius being Voldemort's #2 man was more rumor and speculation than anything else.

As far as Wormtail, if he had a Mark, I doubt he flaunted it. Wizard robes cover the arms. A Death Eater wouldn't have shown the Mark unless they were using it so summon Voldemort, intimidate someone, or proclaim themself to a fellow Death Eater.

As far as the maze... I'm sure imposter-Moody was discreet. He could have been stationed on the side of the maze away from the crowd. And I don't think the crowd really saw much of anything after the champions entered the maze. The hedges were over 8 feet tall and close together.

Good questions, though. Hope you're enjoying your re-read


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Last edited by CharmGlow132; August 4th, 2011 at 10:18 pm.
  #196  
Old August 5th, 2011, 12:16 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by Fireice View Post
Sorry if this has already been asked--if it has, and it very well might have, I'm sorry, I just wanted to post this before I forget--but why was Sirius taken away to Azkaban in the first place? Wouldn't the dementors/other people (I know he didn't get a trial) see that he didn't have the Dark Mark on his forearm, and therefore could never have been associated with Voldemort (Sirius doesn't know what Harry's talking about what when he tells him Karkaroff showed Snape something on his arm, and Moody-Crouch says to Snape "There are spots that never come off," so it's not like Sirius could have taken off a Dark Mark he might have once had)?
I don't think this would exactly prove his innocence. If so, Voldemort could have an entire division of his DE's have no mark and be untouchable by the law. We also have canon to show that only his 'inner circle' were branded by the mark.

Quote:
EDIT: Also, Dumbledore or Sirius never would have seen Pettigrew's Dark Mark before Lily and James were killed, or Harry never saw it that night in the Shrieking Shack in PoA and learned what it was then? I suppose a possible reason could have been that Voldemort would have given Wormtail one after the murders of the Potters; only after he had killed them might he have been convinced of Wormtail's "loyalty"...
I wouldn't be surprised if Wormtail was given the mark only as part of the whole GoF plot. He needed Wormtail to have a Dark Mark in order to summon the Death Eaters to the graveyard, therefore he would have given him one purely as a strategic decision. I doubt Peter would be worthy of one otherwise.


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  #197  
Old August 5th, 2011, 1:08 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by willfitz View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if Wormtail was given the mark only as part of the whole GoF plot. He needed Wormtail to have a Dark Mark in order to summon the Death Eaters to the graveyard, therefore he would have given him one purely as a strategic decision. I doubt Peter would be worthy of one otherwise.
Any fair Dark Lord would give a minion credit for cutting off his own hand. What am I talking about? You're right, he'd just give Wormtail a dark mark if he found it convenient. It seems there is a charm that only lets people with a dark mark through, so people who need to get near Voldemort might need one.

Didn't Karkaroff say that the mark was getting darker all year? Maybe it went invisible, or could be made invisible, so there was no way to tell it was there. It wouldn't make sense for Voldemort to help the good guys identify his favourite minions.


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Old August 5th, 2011, 1:46 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

@CharmGlow132--thanks a bunch for your answers. All are completely possible, at least in my opinion, and definitely help me to put out the fire in my head from these. I'm still not 100% certain that no one, whether it be from capturing a Death Eater, or stumbling by accident across one, managed to see the Dark Mark and figure out what it was (or at least why it was there/who it was branded on). However, as far as the maze part goes; it may have been difficult, but I don't think impossible, for the crowd to see. My concern with that wouldn't be the closeness of the hedges (I don't think they're that far apart, though the're 20+ feet tall, not 8), it would be with the darkness...I don't think it says anywhere that the Quidditch stadium has lights. I also don't know if the sound is trapped in for those outside the maze like it's trapped out for those in the maze. If it's not trapped in, then surely the crowd would've at least heard some of the things going on (in addition to Cedric's yells, etc.)...no?

Either way, again, thanks for your answers. I'm not only just rereading it for the second time...it's my umpteenth time rereading the series, haha, so I suppose I should have thought of these questions sooner.


@willfitz--When you say, "If so, Voldemort could have an entire division of his DE's have no mark and be untouchable by the law. We also have canon to show that only his 'inner circle' were branded by the mark," remember, it was thought that Sirius was right there in Voldemort's inner circle, perhaps even his #2 man. If the Ministry had known about the Marks and thought to check, they most certainly would have been expecting to see one.


@Gwendolen--That second paragraph is something that I never thought of in relation to after Voldemort's downfall. Would it fade slowly (as it brightened) in the days, weeks, and months following his failed attempt to kill Harry, or would it go away immediately? Did it ever go away completely in the first place; was there always a faint but distinct outline? Wormtail and Padfoot had their confrontation...what, one day after Voldemort "went away?" It would have to fade awfully fast...


EDIT: And while browsing the site, I come upon this:

"Q: Does the dark mark remain on those that voldemort has branded after his death or does the tattoo dissapear now he is gone thanks for considering my question!

J.K. Rowling: The Dark Mark would fade to a scar, not dissimilar to the lightning scar on Harry's forehead."

I'm not sure what this means for when he's not dead, but in that state where the Horcruxes were clinging him to life. They wouldn't be scars, would they? If they turned to them, everyone (meaning the Death Eaters) would think him dead (though I suppose they would no idea what would happen to them if Voldemort died, but they're not all unintelligent--someone would be bound to figure out what it means), so I suppose it would have had to have faded to a degree...the question is, how much...


EDIT 2: One more question (sorry!!)--Apologies once more if this has already been asked, but how big is the student body at Hogwarts? It says here and there--I can't remember where--that "800 people" or "3/4 of the crowd was doing this...the other 200 were doing that"...and yet, aren't there only like 8 people in Harry's year in Gryffindor? If that was approximately the same in every house in every year, there would only be 220-some kids...and take a look at the Sorting in S/PS or GoF; there's no way there's 115 kids in each year (and I doubt the other students would be forced to sit through an hour of Sorting)...



Last edited by Fireice; August 5th, 2011 at 2:43 am.
  #199  
Old August 5th, 2011, 3:23 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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EDIT 2: One more question (sorry!!)--Apologies once more if this has already been asked, but how big is the student body at Hogwarts? It says here and there--I can't remember where--that "800 people" or "3/4 of the crowd was doing this...the other 200 were doing that"...and yet, aren't there only like 8 people in Harry's year in Gryffindor? If that was approximately the same in every house in every year, there would only be 220-some kids...and take a look at the Sorting in S/PS or GoF; there's no way there's 115 kids in each year (and I doubt the other students would be forced to sit through an hour of Sorting)...
This is a big confusing point, haha. JKR has said that Hogwarts is about 1,000 students, which doesn't really fit with what we think. She did say that Harry's class was very small compared to others, which could be contributed to the fact that they would have been born during the height of Voldemorts first reign, and I guess people just weren't too interested in having babies at that point.

Jo has also said that she's terrible with math so no, the numbers don't really make sense but we'll just go with what she says


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Old August 5th, 2011, 4:06 am
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Re: Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

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Originally Posted by Fireice View Post
EDIT: Also, Dumbledore or Sirius never would have seen Pettigrew's Dark Mark before Lily and James were killed, or Harry never saw it that night in the Shrieking Shack in PoA and learned what it was then? I suppose a possible reason could have been that Voldemort would have given Wormtail one after the murders of the Potters; only after he had killed them might he have been convinced of Wormtail's "loyalty"...
Perhaps your "after the Potters murder" theory is correct. Dumbledore should have known about the Dark Mark if Snape told him when Snape switched sides. So if Dumbledore was suspecting a spy in Order ranks why not just check arms? It kind of makes sense for Voldemort not to put a Dark Mark on Pettigrew. It would be like a big neon "Spy Located Here" sign id anyone looked at his arm. Of course, Snape had a Dark Mark, and was presummably a spy, so that gets confusing if Voldemrot was okay branding one spy but not another. Maybe there is some way to cover it, like a transfiguration spell of some kind.


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