Plot holes, inconsistencies, and contradictions v. 4

[ShadowSonic]

I'm asking why the Ministry never bothered making some words taboo after the first war when the DEs were the ones outnumbered and more or less driven underground.

[HRW]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

I'm asking why the Ministry never bothered making some words taboo after the first war when the DEs were the ones outnumbered and more or less driven underground.

Do we know for a fact that the DE's were outnumbered?

And what words could they taboo anyway that would guarantee catching a death eater and not some common man walking along the street?

[ShadowSonic]

Originally Posted by HRW

Do we know for a fact that the DE's were outnumbered?

Well, if they had enough fighters to keep up the fight after Voldemort fell why wouldn't they keep fighting in his name?

And what words could they taboo anyway that would guarantee catching a death eater and not some common man walking along the street?

Illegal dark magic words? There had to be something.

This is assuming the ability to Taboo a word was something that could be done beforehand and wasn't one of Voldemort's inventions or something.

[HRW]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

Well, if they had enough fighters to keep up the fight after Voldemort fell why wouldn't they keep fighting in his name?

According to Sirius in OotP Voldemort had huge backing in the first war and comparing the time he had to built up his forces the first time around to the 2nd war then I think he would have had a larger backing in the first war.

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

Illegal dark magic words? There had to be something.

The thing is though, there's a difference between Voldemort and the "good guys". Voldemort did not care if the taboo was successful in catching order members 5/10 times because he was....bad.

The ministry can't do that. They have certain standards to uphold. Dark Magic in itself might be illegal but using words is not.There must have been plenty of people who subscribed to Voldemort's theory but weren't death eaters.

There's no full proof way to ensure the ministry only got the death eaters so I don't think the taboo was ever an option.

[ShadowSonic]

Originally Posted by HRW

According to Sirius in OotP Voldemort had huge backing in the first war and comparing the time he had to built up his forces the first time around to the 2nd war then I think he would have had a larger backing in the first war.

That's what I meant, if they had more of an army in the 1st war why NOT keep up fighting after Voldemort was gone?

There's no full proof way to ensure the ministry only got the death eaters so I don't think the taboo was ever an option.

If they're willing to do raids on private homes just because they think they might have dark magic artifacts there, then they already have policies in place that wouldn't always get them Death Eaters. Tabooing certain illegal-related words during unstable times wouldn't be too much of a stretch.

[HRW]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

That's what I meant, if they had more of an army in the 1st war why NOT keep up fighting after Voldemort was gone?

Voldemort was kind of a figurehead wasn't he? They might have lost their will to fight and I suspect the Ministry itself was scared of Voldemort so after his death they might have been pro-active in dealing with death eaters.

If they're willing to do raids on private homes just because they think they might have dark magic artifacts there, then they already have policies in place that wouldn't always get them Death Eaters. Tabooing certain illegal-related words during unstable times wouldn't be too much of a stretch.

I am not sure tbh. For instance I could say the words Avada Kedavra ten times and yet not be doing anything illegal. The Ministry can't work on percentages when it comes to invading people's privacy.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by HRW

I am not sure tbh. For instance I could say the words Avada Kedavra ten times and yet not be doing anything illegal. The Ministry can't work on percentages when it comes to invading people's privacy.

Right, and presumably raids on houses were only conducted with just cause for suspicion; perhaps even a warrant.

[ShadowSonic]

Originally Posted by HRW

Voldemort was kind of a figurehead wasn't he? They might have lost their will to fight and I suspect the Ministry itself was scared of Voldemort so after his death they might have been pro-active in dealing with death eaters.

Yet, it was so easy for them to take over the Ministry the second time around when they apparently had FEWER numbers.

I am not sure tbh. For instance I could say the words Avada Kedavra ten times and yet not be doing anything illegal. The Ministry can't work on percentages when it comes to invading people's privacy.

I'm talking about in states of War, or emergency the Ministry could've put up Taboos and made it clear some things were meant to be outlawed for the time.

Of course, if the taboo was Voldemort's invention then this is all moot.

[HRW]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

Yet, it was so easy for them to take over the Ministry the second time around when they apparently had FEWER numbers

He never tried taking over the ministry though, did he? And Dumbledore was a king sized obstruction and it took his death for the take over to happen.

I'm talking about in states of War, or emergency the Ministry could've put up Taboos and made it clear some things were meant to be outlawed for the time.

Of course, if the taboo was Voldemort's invention then this is all moot.

They could have, but I reckon it wasn't all the hassle it would cause. For every death eater they might have caught there would have been several other common people caught.

[ShadowSonic]

Originally Posted by HRW

He never tried taking over the ministry though, did he? And Dumbledore was a king sized obstruction and it took his death for the take over to happen.

We don't know if he tried before. Descriptions of the first war are rather sparse, though it seems like was an open war while the second one was less so.

They could have, but I reckon it wasn't all the hassle it would cause. For every death eater they might have caught there would have been several other common people caught.

Then they'd have more impetus to research ways of identifying dark wizards and uncovering the dark mark.

[HRW]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

Then they'd have more impetus to research ways of identifying dark wizards and uncovering the dark mark.

Did they even know about the dark mark in the first war? Sirius seemed to have no idea about it and a lot of the death eaters like Malfoy who had the mark were let off

[ShadowSonic]

Originally Posted by HRW

Did they even know about the dark mark in the first war?

I'd think after the first few captures of DEs, they'd learn.

Sirius seemed to have no idea about it

Well, Sirius was the equivalent of a common soldier. I'd think some higher-ups might've known. That his own family we DE-supporters may have made Sirius suspect by some higher-ups so there could've been political reasons to keep him from knowing everything.

and a lot of the death eaters like Malfoy who had the mark were let off

Yeah, that they were never put under observation or anything really speaks out about how incompetent the Ministry became after the war.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

Yeah, that they were never put under observation or anything really speaks out about how incompetent the Ministry became after the war.

How do we know that they weren't put under observation? There is no reason to believe that the Malfoys hadn't learned their lesson, or at least changed their alignment so as to restore some of their old power within the wizarding society.

[ShadowSonic]

Originally Posted by willfitz

How do we know that they weren't put under observation? There is no reason to believe that the Malfoys hadn't learned their lesson, or at least changed their alignment so as to restore some of their old power within the wizarding society.

I mean after the first war, where Lucius said he was Imperioed and everyone believed it except Arthur.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

I mean after the first war, where Lucius said he was Imperioed and everyone believed it except Arthur.

Once again, how do we know they weren't monitored? Is there ever any indication that the Malfoys were involved in any illegal activity between the first war and the diary incident?

[ShadowSonic]

Originally Posted by willfitz

Once again, how do we know they weren't monitored? Is there ever any indication that the Malfoys were involved in any illegal activity between the first war and the diary incident?

Arthur's attitude seems to suggest so, and Fudge's own attitude towards Lucius seems to imply that his family has been more or less cleared without any suspicions.

[willfitz]

Originally Posted by ShadowSonic

Arthur's attitude seems to suggest so, and Fudge's own attitude towards Lucius seems to imply that his family has been more or less cleared without any suspicions.

What we see is ten years after the fall of Voldemort. There is no real evidence that he was immediately cleared without any suspicions after the first war.