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Have School Authorities Overstepped Their Bounds?



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 21st, 2009, 6:43 pm
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Have School Authorities Overstepped Their Bounds?

Today I wish to pose some questions and discussion aimed at where we draw the line of authority in our Educational Institutions. Years back, school officials, teachers, etc...were granted the authority to keep discipline in the classroom. The switch was often used, as was humiliation such as wearing a Dunce Cap, or sitting in the corner. Today, for the most part in America, corporal punishment has been banned, as has certain forms of humiliation, but other means have increased, such as unreasonable suspensions and expulsions, Saturday Detentions, and even invasions of privacy and strip-searches.

Where should the line be drawn?

Questions for the discussion:

1. What does your educational system do to maintain order?

2. What authority do you feel schools should be granted to protect students, teachers, or enforce policy?

3. How do you feel about corporal punishment in schools?

4. How do you feel about certain punishments far exceeding the infractions? (e.g. 10 day suspension for packing a butter knife with lunch)

5. Savanna Redding, then 13 years old, is the subject of a Supreme Court Case. She was the victim of a strip-search for Ibuprofen. How do you feel about this case?

6 Do you feel schools are justified in conducting strip-searches, or searching lockers with or without cause?

7. (USA) Do you feel public or private schools should be subject to the 4th Amendment of the US Constitution concerning unreasonable searches and seizures? Why or Why not?

8. What other cases have you noted that are questionable?


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  #2  
Old April 21st, 2009, 9:15 pm
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Re: Have School Authorities Overstepped Their Bounds?

1. What does your educational system do to maintain order?

Depends on what the child does. If a child is acting out violently - by having a temper tantrum, harming other students, throwing furniture, etc, teachers who have been trained to restrain students are expected to restrain the child and send him / her to the Principal. The parents are contacted, the child is suspended, and the parents and child have to meet with school authorities before the child can return to school.

For non-violent issues, like bullying or throwing food, other forms of punishment are instigated.

2. What authority do you feel schools should be granted to protect students, teachers, or enforce policy?

Again, I'd say it depends on what the child did wrong. There's a big difference between cheating and threatening to kill a teacher.

3. How do you feel about corporal punishment in schools?

I'm OK with it out of the schools.

4. How do you feel about certain punishments far exceeding the infractions? (e.g. 10 day suspension for packing a butter knife with lunch)

Absolutely. These zero tolerance policies are being interpreted too tightly (like a kid with some tylenol in his backpack whose suspended for drug posession.)

5. Savanna Redding, then 13 years old, is the subject of a Supreme Court Case. She was the victim of a strip-search for Ibuprofen. How do you feel about this case?

I thinkthe teacher / administrator who strip searched her ought to be fired.

6 Do you feel schools are justified in conducting strip-searches, or searching lockers with or without cause?

I don;t have any problem with locker searches, but strip searches are unacceptable.

7. (USA) Do you feel public or private schools should be subject to the 4th Amendment of the US Constitution concerning unreasonable searches and seizures? Why or Why not?

Yes, and no. Lockers are school property and students could use them to conceal weapons or illegal drugs. I'm Ok with unannounced searches of every locker in the school. Same with opening your backpack or purse for examination.

I am not comfortable with strip searches at all. If a child is suspected of having a weapon, then they can be patted down and turn their pockets inside out. Same with drugs. If the school thinks a child may have placed drugs or weapons in a body cavity, they then child should be sent to the hospital for medical treatment to remove the weapon or drugs. And the child's parents ought to be contacted and present when the exam takes place.

8. What other cases have you noted that are questionable?

Mandatory weighing and monitoring of children's BMI without parental consent or notification.


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  #3  
Old April 21st, 2009, 9:37 pm
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Re: Have School Authorities Overstepped Their Bounds?

1. What does your educational system do to maintain order?
I don't know so much about my college, but my high school was on the small side so it was pretty easy for the staff keep things in control. We had rules like every other high school, but we never had any controversial punishments dished out.

2. What authority do you feel schools should be granted to protect students, teachers, or enforce policy?
To enforce policy - the standard stuff, like handing out detentions and the dreaded phone call home. My school was big on the phone call home. As for protection...well, we just had a school cop. Of course, my school was in a very wealthy, conservatice, non-diverse area were there was basically no crime or any incidents, so I'm not the best judge for school protection.

3. How do you feel about corporal punishment in schools?
I do not approve of it.

4. How do you feel about certain punishments far exceeding the infractions? (e.g. 10 day suspension for packing a butter knife with lunch)
Well that example hits home - when I was in first grade I brought a butter knife to school to slice my banana...but all that happened was my teacher took it away. My school was always pretty fair about that kind of stuff, and I think it's important for the punishment to fit the crime.

5. Savanna Redding, then 13 years old, is the subject of a Supreme Court Case. She was the victim of a strip-search for Ibuprofen. How do you feel about this case?
That's ridiculous! I just read that article on CNN's website, and it's just insane. Those school officials overreacted in a major way.

6 Do you feel schools are justified in conducting strip-searches, or searching lockers with or without cause?
I think searching lockers with cause - like a drug dog barks or whatever they're trained to do when they smell drugs - is fine, but I think strip-searching is harder to think about. I think the cause would have to be really extreme - like a really small bomb or somehting bad that you wouldn't be able to feel with a nice good frisking - to make that justified.

7. (USA) Do you feel public or private schools should be subject to the 4th Amendment of the US Constitution concerning unreasonable searches and seizures? Why or Why not?
Yes, I think the 4th Amendment should apply to everyone.

8. What other cases have you noted that are questionable?
None that I can think of right now.


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Old April 21st, 2009, 11:59 pm
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Re: Have School Authorities Overstepped Their Bounds?

1. What does your educational system do to maintain order?
Unfortunately too little....Well we get detentions if we get pretty bad but in a lot of cases, the teachers turn a blind eye to everything. If there are fights or something, then its suspension. I have personally see kids smoke behind the school in an area relatively open and i have no idea how at least some teachers don't notice. And I have friends that have been borderline sexually abused. (well, not too bad, but seriously, random guys just coming up tickling their chin, hugging them, etc....) The teachers didn't do anything until they actually stole my friend's stuff and i err got rather violent . But i was the rather small inocent looking freshman girl so didn't really get in trouble and they provoked me . We dont get in trouble for anything really unless it gets seriosly out of hand, like in direct altercations in broad daylight.

2. What authority do you feel schools should be granted to protect students, teachers, or enforce policy?
idk, i just think the teachers should stop turning a blind eye. most kids only do what they do because they know they can get away with it

3. How do you feel about corporal punishment in schools?
NO WAY. All it achieves is that the teen or kid hates the teacher usually. And my biology teacher says that a few years ago, a kid actually beat a teacher, so...yeah....

4. How do you feel about certain punishments far exceeding the infractions? (e.g. 10 day suspension for packing a butter knife with lunch)
That's WAY too zero policy. I mean sure it's dangerous but the intent matters a bit right?

5. Savanna Redding, then 13 years old, is the subject of a Supreme Court Case. She was the victim of a strip-search for Ibuprofen. How do you feel about this case?
I don't really know much about it, but a strip search is overdoing it really. but i won't make judgements since i dont really know anything about it.

6 Do you feel schools are justified in conducting strip-searches, or searching lockers with or without cause?
searching lockers is ok with me. It is school property and can hold dangerous things. I personally know people who have had drugs and alcohol and possibly knives in their lockers so its a definite threat.

7. (USA) Do you feel public or private schools should be subject to the 4th Amendment of the US Constitution concerning unreasonable searches and seizures? Why or Why not?
Public schools, definitely should be subject to the 4th admendment. Im not as sure about private, cuz well, that's what the parent paid for, but still seems questionable to me

8. What other cases have you noted that are questionable?
I forget the exact case but a 12 or 13 year old girl had been pulled away from class by her guidance counselor based on rumors that she was pregnant b her boyfriend. She was then forced to take a pregnancy test without the knowledge or consent of her parents.


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  #5  
Old April 22nd, 2009, 1:17 am
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Re: Have School Authorities Overstepped Their Bounds?

1. What does your educational system do to maintain order?
I don't have anyone in the local school system right now, so I can't answer this one, but when my sister was in school (she graduated from high school in 2007) I know that in school suspension was a big thing.

2. What authority do you feel schools should be granted to protect students, teachers, or enforce policy?
Teachers need to be teachers and stop trying to be the student's best friend. But, teachers and administrators should not be evil dictators. There is a line that needs to be drawn.
Detentions, in school suspension, out of school suspension, phone calls home, expulsion should be used when the situation deems it. I got detention once for being tardy ONE time and it was like right after the bell rang. That was a little harsh. But, detention for doing something like talking back to a teacher, that's reasonable.

3. How do you feel about corporal punishment in schools?
Totally against it. My parents still talk about when my brother was in kindergarten he was so afraid of the principal and of starting school because he heard the principal liked beating kids (I don't think he did). The teachers and administrators aren't the parents so I believe they don't have a right to lay a hand on a child, but just like it did my brother, it can scare them. That's not really a condusive place for learning. We've all had strict teachers or mean teachers. What if that teacher had the permission for corporal punishment?

4. How do you feel about certain punishments far exceeding the infractions? (e.g. 10 day suspension for packing a butter knife with lunch)
Like I listed above, detention for ONE tardy. I've had silent lunch for forgetting to turn in a permission slip--it wasn't getting a test signed by a parent, it was a permission slip. Silent lunch isn't all that bad except that everyone can see you and they think you did something bad. I felt embarrassed when I sat there. I wasn't a bad kid, I just forgot to turn in a permission slip. I understand if it was a test that I needed to get signed. I understand if I had done something like disobey the teacher when she asked the class to be quiet or sit in her seats or something like that, but this wasn't that. I don't agree with the punishment far exceeding the crime. I don't think it helps at all. What did I learn from that?

5. Savanna Redding, then 13 years old, is the subject of a Supreme Court Case. She was the victim of a strip-search for Ibuprofen. How do you feel about this case?
I haven't heard of this case before. I do understand not allowing kids to bring medicine like that to school without turning it over to a school nurse or secretary. It is techincally a drug and you don't know what the kids will be using it for or who they'll give it to. I know that the majority of the kids who do bring that stuff to school are just using it for headaches and junk like that, but you have to have a rule like that in case. Strip searching, though, is a little much. I don't agree with strip searching in any school. That's just wrong.

6 Do you feel schools are justified in conducting strip-searches, or searching lockers with or without cause?
Strip searches, no.

I'm used to random searches, though. I went to two high schools that had lockdowns to search our stuff and our bodies (no stripping, though--just the wand and take everything out of our pockets). I accept the searching. Kids have been found with illegal drugs this way. I don't recall them ever finding a weapon, though this really nice girl I know got suspended for having a nail file. That is a little extreme, but then, the have the rule no nail files.

7. (USA) Do you feel public or private schools should be subject to the 4th Amendment of the US Constitution concerning unreasonable searches and seizures? Why or Why not?
Is this unreasonable searching? I don't know. It's their job to provide a safe place for us that is condusive for learning. I don't know how I feel about this. The searches never bothered me and they didn't happen that often, but if they did find something "illegal" on me would I be able to say they didn't have the right to go through my stuff?

8. What other cases have you noted that are questionable?
I can't recall anything.


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  #6  
Old April 22nd, 2009, 1:28 am
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Re: Have School Authorities Overstepped Their Bounds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux View Post

4. How do you feel about certain punishments far exceeding the infractions? (e.g. 10 day suspension for packing a butter knife with lunch)
That's WAY too zero policy. I mean sure it's dangerous but the intent matters a bit right?
I am not so sure about "intent" making a difference. If the policy is no knives, but you bring a boy scout knife because you like having a pocket screwdriver, I can't blame the school for enforcing the policy. The punishment should include mitigation, or malicious intent.



Quote:
7. (USA) Do you feel public or private schools should be subject to the 4th Amendment of the US Constitution concerning unreasonable searches and seizures? Why or Why not?

Public schools, definitely should be subject to the 4th admendment. Im not as sure about private, cuz well, that's what the parent paid for, but still seems questionable to me
In a previous question you answered that searching lockers is OK, but here you said they should be subject to the 4th Amendment. So, on what grounds would you consider a reasonable search?

Quote:
8. What other cases have you noted that are questionable?

I forget the exact case but a 12 or 13 year old girl had been pulled away from class by her guidance counselor based on rumors that she was pregnant b her boyfriend. She was then forced to take a pregnancy test without the knowledge or consent of her parents.
Now that is very controversial. I will research this a bit to see what I can find, but it sounds like a clear invasion of privacy, and none of the schools business.


Found it, here is the link.
Lawsuit

From the looks of it the school board is denying the event ever occurred. However, if the circumstances turn out to be true, then I would say the school is in real trouble. What they should have done if they had heard such rumours is take the child at her word, unless part of the rumour was that the pregnancy was the result of a possible sexual assault/rape case. In which case I would say they have an obligation to report the matter to the girl's parents. Unless someone comes forward with evidence that this girl was forced to take a pregnancy test, or the test strip is found, I don't think they can make a case.


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Last edited by rigdoctorbri; April 22nd, 2009 at 1:36 am.
  #7  
Old April 22nd, 2009, 2:26 am
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Re: Have School Authorities Overstepped Their Bounds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rigdoctorbri View Post
I am not so sure about "intent" making a difference. If the policy is no knives, but you bring a boy scout knife because you like having a pocket screwdriver, I can't blame the school for enforcing the policy. The punishment should include mitigation, or malicious intent.
I feel like zero tolerance policies dont actually look into like details. If the intent is not malicious or violent, slightly less punishment, like a few days less suspension or something like that, or depending on whether its a first time offense or not. Thing is that teachers do play a major role in it. For example, if i brought in a knife and my teachers saw, depending on the teacher and their views on zero tolerance policies, since im usually a good student and don't get in trouble, a few of them might just have a long talk with me and not actually report me. Which is good and bad, but nothing's foolproof

Quote:
Originally Posted by rigdoctorbri View Post


Found it, here is the link.
Lawsuit

From the looks of it the school board is denying the event ever occurred. However, if the circumstances turn out to be true, then I would say the school is in real trouble. What they should have done if they had heard such rumours is take the child at her word, unless part of the rumour was that the pregnancy was the result of a possible sexual assault/rape case. In which case I would say they have an obligation to report the matter to the girl's parents. Unless someone comes forward with evidence that this girl was forced to take a pregnancy test, or the test strip is found, I don't think they can make a case.
are school nurses supposed to have pregnancy tests anyways?


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  #8  
Old April 22nd, 2009, 2:52 am
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Re: Have School Authorities Overstepped Their Bounds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leah49 View Post
2. What authority do you feel schools should be granted to protect students, teachers, or enforce policy?

Detentions, in school suspension, out of school suspension, phone calls home, expulsion should be used when the situation deems it. I got detention once for being tardy ONE time and it was like right after the bell rang. That was a little harsh. But, detention for doing something like talking back to a teacher, that's reasonable.
I bet you weren't late again, though?

Quote:
4. How do you feel about certain punishments far exceeding the infractions? (e.g. 10 day suspension for packing a butter knife with lunch)
Like I listed above, detention for ONE tardy. I've had silent lunch for forgetting to turn in a permission slip--it wasn't getting a test signed by a parent, it was a permission slip. Silent lunch isn't all that bad except that everyone can see you and they think you did something bad. I felt embarrassed when I sat there. I wasn't a bad kid, I just forgot to turn in a permission slip. I understand if it was a test that I needed to get signed. I understand if I had done something like disobey the teacher when she asked the class to be quiet or sit in her seats or something like that, but this wasn't that. I don't agree with the punishment far exceeding the crime. I don't think it helps at all. What did I learn from that?
Did you forget another permission slip? Actually, it sounds like you were an angel in school.

Quote:
6 Do you feel schools are justified in conducting strip-searches, or searching lockers with or without cause?
Strip searches, no.

I'm used to random searches, though. I went to two high schools that had lockdowns to search our stuff and our bodies (no stripping, though--just the wand and take everything out of our pockets). I accept the searching. Kids have been found with illegal drugs this way. I don't recall them ever finding a weapon, though this really nice girl I know got suspended for having a nail file. That is a little extreme, but then, the have the rule no nail files.
The nail file bit is a little over the top IMO. I have heard this one too. But, if the rule is clear that No Nail Files, and the penalties are clearly spelled out, there should be no complaints.

Quote:
7. (USA) Do you feel public or private schools should be subject to the 4th Amendment of the US Constitution concerning unreasonable searches and seizures? Why or Why not?
Is this unreasonable searching? I don't know. It's their job to provide a safe place for us that is condusive for learning. I don't know how I feel about this. The searches never bothered me and they didn't happen that often, but if they did find something "illegal" on me would I be able to say they didn't have the right to go through my stuff?
Well, private schools are a different matter concerning this, but since Public Schools are funded by government resources and answer to government agencies, I feel they are compelled to abide by the Constitution. The Constitution is intended to protect the people from their government, and a public school is an arm of the government.

However, the lockers are issued by the school, and are school property. As such I don't think it is unreasonable that they should be able to search those lockers with or without cause, with or without a warrant. I also don't feel that a public school is a place one should have a reasonable expectation of privacy, except in the bathrooms, or behind closed doors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux View Post

are school nurses supposed to have pregnancy tests anyways?
Some school districts have allowed it, and students can request a test in confidence, or so I have found out...


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  #9  
Old April 22nd, 2009, 7:02 pm
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Re: Have School Authorities Overstepped Their Bounds?

Was I late again? I tried hard not to be. The situation: I was late to school in the morning because of my brother. He was the driver and I was always ready waiting on him in the morning. I got in trouble for it, he didn't! The actual rule in the school was 3 tardies equal detention. Ah, well. I'm over it.

LOL, I wasn't angel, but I was a bit of a goody-goody. Did I forget another permission slip? Yeah, I think so. Those things slip my mind. I had silent lunch twice that year and I hated it both times. I was in seventh grade and the sixth graders had lunch before us. I was afraid my favorite teacher from the year before would see me and think I did something horrible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rigdoctorbri
I also don't feel that a public school is a place one should have a reasonable expectation of privacy, except in the bathrooms, or behind closed doors.
I understand what you mean here, but in restroom stalls is where kids do a lot of their smoking, so even though I want all the privacy in the world while I'm using the restroom, I know that other kids are taking advantage of this privacy.


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Last edited by leah49; April 22nd, 2009 at 7:07 pm.
  #10  
Old April 22nd, 2009, 7:18 pm
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Re: Have School Authorities Overstepped Their Bounds?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leah49 View Post
I got detention once for being tardy ONE time and it was like right after the bell rang. That was a little harsh. But, detention for doing something like talking back to a teacher, that's reasonable.
I got detention for having three unexcused tardies, and I think that's a pretty good tardy policy. But then again, I only ever had one teacher who counted it as a tardy if you walked in RIGHT after the bell.
Even though I thought this a pretty fair policy, it didn't stop me for having a few more towards the end of year. I was a senior (and thus had stopped caring after the AP exams were over) and the teachers stopped caring whether the seniors showed up on time or not


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Old April 23rd, 2009, 3:27 am
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Re: Have School Authorities Overstepped Their Bounds?

I would agree that 3 tardies resulting in a detention sounds like a proportional penalty.

The problem is that repeat offenses need to be dealt with by use of progressive discipline IMO. If detention doesn't work, move to in school suspension, then to out of school suspension etc...


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Old April 23rd, 2009, 6:37 am
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Re: Have School Authorities Overstepped Their Bounds?

1. What does your educational system do to maintain order?

Sadly, even though I have two young children in school, I've never actually read the manual. But my kids are 5 and 6 1/2 so I suspect that the trouble they get into won't be that much.

I do know on the playground they have "yard guards" and the kids aren't allowed to run on the blacktop, only on the grass (and there isn't much of that) and I guess they aren't allowed to do any "tricks" on the jungle gym. they get benched.

It seems that for day to day discipline, the teachers do their own thing. In Kindergarten they had a board with "Super Day", "Good Job", "Whoops", "Yikes" and your clip was moved accordingly. That seemed to work for my daughter.

2. What authority do you feel schools should be granted to protect students, teachers, or enforce policy?

It does depend on what the infraction is and they should be able to do the usual stuff - detentions, suspensions, expulsions.

3. How do you feel about corporal punishment in schools?

I would say no, only because these kids are not THEIR kids. I have no problem with "spanking" by parents of their own children, but no one should be spanking or otherwise using corporal punishment on children that are not their own.

On the other hand, because children know that they can't be "spanked" at school (and sometimes they know that they can use threats of Child Protective Services on their own parents), I think they push the envelope, so I think that teachers and administrations need to put their foot down and learn how to skate that line between permissiveness and authoritarianism.

4. How do you feel about certain punishments far exceeding the infractions? (e.g. 10 day suspension for packing a butter knife with lunch)

I do NOT like zero tolerance policies. I think it's just pure laziness. Teachers and Administrators should be able to perform critical thinking. Someone not thinking and bringing a butter knife with their lunch should simply get a warning to remember not to do so again.

There was one kid, I think it was in California, but I can't recall who was punished because he was DRAWING A PICTURE OF A "RAY GUN". He was doodling and he got in trouble. I think he was suspended.

RIDICULOUS.

Schools need to take the time and be RATIONAL about rules and discipline.

For instance, I have no problem with a "dress code" and in fact I'm totally in favor of "uniforms" for public schools. I went to Catholic school and I never felt deprived wearing a uniform. Concentration should be on learning not "expressing yourself through clothing".

But our school district has rules that are obviously not being enforced. For instance, no one can wear spaghetti strap tank tops, not even the little kids in elementary school. Yet on hot days I see the high school kids barely wearing clothes - short shorts, tank tops, etc. Obviously they dress that way because no one is telling them not to.

I like rules that are at the very least rationally based on some school necessity.

5. Savanna Redding, then 13 years old, is the subject of a Supreme Court Case. She was the victim of a strip-search for Ibuprofen. How do you feel about this case?

I am outraged about this. While I understand that kids nowadays seem to be getting into more trouble with all kinds of drugs, even over the counter, I find it offensive that any school would make a big deal out of Ibuprofen or Tylenol, but some schools will hand out condoms and birth control WITHOUT A PARENT'S CONSENT.

They can't have it both ways. That's part of the zero tolerance policies that I just can't stomach.

I hope the Supreme Court finds in her favor.

6 Do you feel schools are justified in conducting strip-searches, or searching lockers with or without cause?

This is kind of going to answer both this one and #7 so I may repeat myself:

I feel that searching lockers or kids bags is acceptable with probable cause, so in that way the 4th Amendment does apply. I don't even have a problem with them going through security like we do at the airport, especially in schools that have severe problems.

Strip searches are uncalled for except in an extreme circumstance and frankly, I can't even think of one in a school scenario. So I would say strip-searches are probably never warranted in a school scenario.

7. (USA) Do you feel public or private schools should be subject to the 4th Amendment of the US Constitution concerning unreasonable searches and seizures? Why or Why not?

As I said above, I think that searches should only be done based on probable cause. I don't know if that means they have to get a warrant, because that takes time, but there are exceptions to the rule of getting a warrant, as long as you have probable cause, like "emergency situations".

8. What other cases have you noted that are questionable?


As I said, there was the case of the boy who doodled a ray gun in class and I believe he was suspended. That is just ridiculous.

I feel that some rules and some things that are allowed are for the benefit of liberal ideals, i.e., drawing a gun must mean the kid is "dangerous" in some way, and no Ibuprofen, but they'll hand out birth control without a parent's consent.

Consistency is what is needed and some common sense. I know that times have changed and things can get complicated. But I also feel that common sense works in any time and under any circumstance.


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  #13  
Old April 23rd, 2009, 11:01 pm
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Re: Have School Authorities Overstepped Their Bounds?

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Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux View Post
8. What other cases have you noted that are questionable?

I forget the exact case but a 12 or 13 year old girl had been pulled away from class by her guidance counselor based on rumors that she was pregnant b her boyfriend. She was then forced to take a pregnancy test without the knowledge or consent of her parents.
I would be very surprised if a school did this, and any school official that did, in my opinion, ought to be fired.


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  #14  
Old April 23rd, 2009, 11:22 pm
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Re: Have School Authorities Overstepped Their Bounds?

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Originally Posted by merry18 View Post
I got detention for having three unexcused tardies, and I think that's a pretty good tardy policy. But then again, I only ever had one teacher who counted it as a tardy if you walked in RIGHT after the bell.
Even though I thought this a pretty fair policy, it didn't stop me for having a few more towards the end of year. I was a senior (and thus had stopped caring after the AP exams were over) and the teachers stopped caring whether the seniors showed up on time or not
Is it for class or jsut schoolday in general?

I'm pretty annoyed at our school system. Basically if you're tardy because you are sick, you can still get a detention for it. i mean, i can understand like make up work fro the teacher, but detention is just stupid because all it reall is is an afterschool study hall. Just one thing that i don't understand. My english teacher says that you HAVE to have a pass to get into the classroom late, whether or not you have a excuse. But the thing is that if you're late because you're talking to friends or getting help from a teacher, you get penalized no matter what...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ladykrystyna View Post
1. What does your educational system do to maintain order?

Sadly, even though I have two young children in school, I've never actually read the manual. But my kids are 5 and 6 1/2 so I suspect that the trouble they get into won't be that much.

I do know on the playground they have "yard guards" and the kids aren't allowed to run on the blacktop, only on the grass (and there isn't much of that) and I guess they aren't allowed to do any "tricks" on the jungle gym. they get benched.

It seems that for day to day discipline, the teachers do their own thing. In Kindergarten they had a board with "Super Day", "Good Job", "Whoops", "Yikes" and your clip was moved accordingly. That seemed to work for my daughter.
The good thing about maintaining little kids is that the smallest punishment will do . I still have a memory of in third grade when i told this kid, "Please shut up" and since i didn't grow up in an american household, i didn't understand the negative connotations to it compared to "Please be quiet" and i got a talk with the teacher because of it and i rmeember wanting to cry. Now i think back to it its rather ridiculous because the teacher wasn't even being mean about it, but just knowing i was in trouble was bad to me

I have mixed feelings about safety rules. On one hand, I would probably have less scars if i actually obeyed them, on the other hand, the injuries were quite worth it

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Originally Posted by monster_mom View Post
I would be very surprised if a school did this, and any school official that did, in my opinion, ought to be fired.
well, the one rigdoctorbri is the third article that i've seen on the case. It might very possibly be true though.


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  #15  
Old April 23rd, 2009, 11:42 pm
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Re: Have School Authorities Overstepped Their Bounds?

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I was a senior (and thus had stopped caring after the AP exams were over) and the teachers stopped caring whether the seniors showed up on time or not
Reminds me of my final year. One time when I and a couple of friends skipped out one afternoon, the deputy principal (who was also in charge of punishing the guys) told us he wasn't going to punish us as we were 17 and it would be pointless. He merely said that if we were going to leave the grounds to use discretion so the younger kids wouldn't see.


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  #16  
Old April 24th, 2009, 12:04 am
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Re: Have School Authorities Overstepped Their Bounds?

i like that deputy, he understands

But honestly, unless you plan on sticking a kid in jail, most will not care about punishments. I mean sure they hate detention but it usually doesn't stop them from repeating the crime. I know a few kids like that. One is in danger of repeating the 9th grade because of too many absences and my friend saw him smoking (he's only like 14).

Most kids i know (me included ) don't care about committing the crime, but more whether or not we'll be punished. And by that, i mean the short term. Probelm is that a lot of other kids i know don't even care about the punishment


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  #17  
Old April 24th, 2009, 4:06 am
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Re: Have School Authorities Overstepped Their Bounds?

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Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux
i mean, i can understand like make up work from the teacher, but detention is just stupid because all it reall is is an afterschool study hall.
One thing that I think would improve discipline is if detentions involved making students with detention actually do work - janitorial stuff like cleaning the washrooms, sweeping floors, etc. supervised by a teacher. My school had microwaves and they were always a mess from kids' pizza pops and things like that, so cleaning them would have been a good task. It would be a much stronger disincentive. (I actually got the idea from the Harry Potter books.) Just having kids hang around for half an hour or an hour accomplished nothing.

I think the schools just don't want to have to put up with the yelling from parents they'd get if they did that.


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  #18  
Old April 24th, 2009, 5:15 am
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Re: Have School Authorities Overstepped Their Bounds?

I actually really agree. Its not really unfair or hard work but still ind of unpleasant. Its just community service


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  #19  
Old April 24th, 2009, 5:19 am
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Re: Have School Authorities Overstepped Their Bounds?

1. What does your educational system do to maintain order?
Schools throughout the United States have a variety of systems in place to deal with discipline. In some places teachers focus on rewarding good behavior, particularly with smaller children, by giving out stickers or stars or collecting marbles toward some sort of end goal. In some places lights or warnings systems are in place that judge the behavior level of the children in the class and expects them to act in a way reflective of the level (such as using a stop light, and when it goes to red no one can talk or move).

3. How do you feel about corporal punishment in schools?
I strongly disagree with corporal punishment. As I do not even believe in spanking your own children as a method of discipline, I certainly do not believe that teachers or administrators should be allowed to make that sort of decision. I did attend a public school that administered corporal punishment. There was a great disparity in the offenses it could be used to discipline, from chewing gum in class to physically harming another student. Parents were allowed to opt their children out, I believe, but the default was to allow corporal punishment to all students. I did not find students any better behaved at this school than any other. For a small town, there were still students who were arrested, attempted arson and experienced teenage pregnancy.

4. How do you feel about certain punishments far exceeding the infractions? (e.g. 10 day suspension for packing a butter knife with lunch)
I think that common sense needs to come into the picture somewhere. A small percentage of schools are so bad off that children are severely harming each other with butter knives. Children learn lessons better when the punishment is related to the offense. If they feel mistreated or aggrieved then they won't learn a lesson at all from the punishment and some will feel more justified in breaking the rules (a rebellion of sorts).

5. Savanna Redding, then 13 years old, is the subject of a Supreme Court Case. She was the victim of a strip-search for Ibuprofen. How do you feel about this case?
They were looking for ibuprofen. That is absolutely ludicrous. Even if they were looking for cocaine I find a strip search inappropriate. As far as I'm concerned that was more than an invasion of her privacy that was a form of sexual abuse. I am not sure where school officials got the impression that they were allowed to ask students to remove clothing. If this was my daughter, I would have wanted them arrested. What if they found the ibuprofen? Worse case was suspension, there was not even a severe enough risk to the student body to have requested police assistance. If they believed a student was hiding some sort of weapon, I could see containing them in a room and calling the police and their parents and letting them sort the specifics out together depending on standard police protocol concerning juveniles. But regardless of the circumstances a strip search performed by school personnel is inappropriate.

6 Do you feel schools are justified in conducting strip-searches, or searching lockers with or without cause?
I'm not sure I believe that schools should do either without cause. What would be the point in that? Random locker searches could turn up things that are banned in schools, but we should be stressing to students the need to report fellow students if they bring unsafe substances or weapons to school. If the school has severe problems, they should have metal detectors or other such safegaurds in place.

7. (USA) Do you feel public or private schools should be subject to the 4th Amendment of the US Constitution concerning unreasonable searches and seizures? Why or Why not?
It always bothered me when I was in school that the 4th Amendment didn't seem to apply to us. I do not see how a personal car on school grounds does not have an expectation of privacy. I can see the police having the school search a locker for them and being able to use the results, but I would not say the same about a personal vehicle no matter where it was located. Workplaces do not have the ability to permit searches of workers cars.


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Originally Posted by rigdoctorbri View Post
I am not so sure about "intent" making a difference. If the policy is no knives, but you bring a boy scout knife because you like having a pocket screwdriver, I can't blame the school for enforcing the policy. The punishment should include mitigation, or malicious intent
I think intent matters a great deal. In fact, it is why I don't agree with mandatory minimums either. I think schools should judge each case and infraction on its merits. Giving detention to a student who's parents drop them off late everyday isn't going to do any good, and only punishes the student for something outside of their control. Realizing that sometimes students can't get across campus in two minutes, knowing which students were goofing off in the hall and that is why they were late to class and which students simply had too far to go is important.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigdoctorbri View Post
From the looks of it the school board is denying the event ever occurred. However, if the circumstances turn out to be true, then I would say the school is in real trouble. What they should have done if they had heard such rumours is take the child at her word, unless part of the rumour was that the pregnancy was the result of a possible sexual assault/rape case. In which case I would say they have an obligation to report the matter to the girl's parents. Unless someone comes forward with evidence that this girl was forced to take a pregnancy test, or the test strip is found, I don't think they can make a case.
I think if this actually happened the school should have done nothing. Rumors about the lives of two of their students are no concern of theirs as long as there was no evidence of a crime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rigdoctorbri
The nail file bit is a little over the top IMO. I have heard this one too. But, if the rule is clear that No Nail Files, and the penalties are clearly spelled out, there should be no complaints.
While I would always encourage people to follow rules no matter how ridiculous, I do not agree that simply because it is a rule they shouldn't complain. There are rules that are bad rules, and students and parents should advocate that they change. When I was in high school, if you were caught being late by an administrator you were put in internal suspension for the class. While I can see the point of not disturbing other students if it was halfway through class, I think being taken from class for being a few seconds late is bad policy as the student is denied their ability to learn when there is no reason to do so. I don't think I ever went to a school that had enough time to use the restroom between classes, and I don't think having to do so should be a crime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorEowyn View Post
One thing that I think would improve discipline is if detentions involved making students with detention actually do work - janitorial stuff like cleaning the washrooms, sweeping floors, etc. supervised by a teacher. My school had microwaves and they were always a mess from kids' pizza pops and things like that, so cleaning them would have been a good task. It would be a much stronger disincentive. (I actually got the idea from the Harry Potter books.) Just having kids hang around for half an hour or an hour accomplished nothing.
I actually went to a school that did this. If you had Saturday School for punishment, you were forced to clean the floors and walls and such. I'm not sure I ever thought it was very effective because you would get Saturday School for getting three detentions, and the detentions could be for anything including leaving a book in the hallway after lunch. I think other schools I went to also had lunch detention in which you had to help clean up the cafeteria after lunch was over. I think that will work for some people, but just like any other punishments it wouldn't be a fix all. For some students a stern look is enough for them to feel properly recalcitrant, for others not even expulsion would be enough of a threat. I'd say some of that has to do with parenting, and others just on the personality of the child involved.


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  #20  
Old April 24th, 2009, 6:14 am
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Re: Have School Authorities Overstepped Their Bounds?

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Originally Posted by WarriorEowyn View Post
One thing that I think would improve discipline is if detentions involved making students with detention actually do work - janitorial stuff like cleaning the washrooms, sweeping floors, etc. supervised by a teacher. My school had microwaves and they were always a mess from kids' pizza pops and things like that, so cleaning them would have been a good task. It would be a much stronger disincentive. (I actually got the idea from the Harry Potter books.) Just having kids hang around for half an hour or an hour accomplished nothing.

I think the schools just don't want to have to put up with the yelling from parents they'd get if they did that.
I agree with this as well. Actually, it should go for "suspensions" as well. My mom always said that suspension from school made no sense - the kid was home doing what? Especially if the parents worked. For some kids that wouldn't be much of a punishment.

Make them to a little work, I say.

But, Warrior, you are right - I can hear the screeching from the parents now - "Not my Johnny!"

You know, I learned the stupidity of some parents at the age of 13 when we 8th graders were required by the school to patrol the bus and keep the younger kids in line. I "disciplined" one kid and his mother SWORE that he was just an angel. Boy did I have news for her!

But this also exposed the stupidity of the school. The Bus Company didn't like the fact that the 8th graders were "in charge", but of course, why would the 2 parties try to work out amongst themselves.

I got into trouble from the bus driver for "disciplining" another kid and my mom went to talk to the principal because I was at risk for being banned from riding the bus - my only way to school. The principal refused to budge - it was my duty to do it regardless.

I just remember ignoring any trouble on the bus after that. I mean, there wasn't always a lot of trouble anyway, but what was the point of me doing anything?

See, that's the kind of stupidity I can't stand.

It must be something about bureaucracy that just fries the brain.


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