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Spinner's End #2 - Severus Severed?

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Old August 1st, 2006, 7:45 pm
LtColFifiP LtColFifiP is offline
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Re: Spinner's End #2 - Severus Severed?

You have, I think quite rightly, likened Snape to a careful, crafty spider that calculates each move and does nothing without carefully considering consequences. He certainly isn't absent-minded. What, then, does anyone think of his having left his potions book in what would become Slughorn's classroom, apparently without having alerted Slughorn? Was his goal that Harry would obtain and use the book? Did he want Slughorn to find and use it? Did he want Draco to get it? Did he have another plan? Did he really have no plan?

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Old August 13th, 2006, 5:38 am
charmer19  Female.gif charmer19 is offline
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Re: Spinner's End #2 - Severus Severed?

To LtColFifiP:

You're totally right. It seems like Snape is weaving a very complicated web with all that has gone on.

As a Slytherin, I think that Snape would want credit for his work at the very least, so I doubt he would just donate the potions book to the school where anybody might be able to look at it. Plus, it seems odd to me that nothing happened with his book for all the years in between Snape's time as a Hogwarts student and the present. Wouldn't someone besides Harry find an interest in useful Potions tips as well as unheard-of spells if they read the notes in the book? I never thought about it before, but maybe Snape did intend for someone (perhaps Harry) to find and use the book in Harry's sixth year paticularily, so he saved the book until that year and then put it in the pile of school potions books...? Like I said before, it would be out of Snape's character to not want credit for his potions genius and new spells, so maybe, since he couldn't take credit for things like Sectumsempra while he was still at school, he waited until later to release them again.

Reminds me of another young Slytherin 50 years ago and his diary.........

Last edited by charmer19; August 28th, 2006 at 4:19 am.
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Old October 14th, 2006, 5:58 am
whos_who  Undisclosed.gif whos_who is offline
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Re: Spinner's End #2 - Severus Severed?

Hey! Whos_who here. Ok, look I have a theory about what Lady lupin said about the Unbreakable Vow and Harry. I don't know if it's in the book cuz I haven't read them in a while, but in PoA Movie, Severus Snape deliberatly throws himself between Harry, Ron, Hermione and the transformed Remus Lupin. Now why would he protect them if he hates them so much? I think that Lady Lupin is right, Snape was protecting Harry! Wierd, hun?

What do you think?

Whoever posted previously, you go! I so agree!

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Old October 14th, 2006, 6:43 am
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BublGumPnkHar  Female.gif BublGumPnkHar is offline
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Re: Spinner's End #2 - Severus Severed?

Snape was still unconcious in the book, he didn't come to until after the Dementor attack. POA movie is wrong.

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Old October 17th, 2006, 8:46 pm
izzviggo  Female.gif izzviggo is offline
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Re: Spinner's End #2 - Severus Severed?

I think that Severus and Dumbledore have a much deeper connection than that of just headmaster and reformed death eater.

And I refuse to believe that Snape is evil after everything that has happened over the 6 books.

He is still teaching and helping Harry when he is trying to run through the castle gates with Draco - telling him that he needs to master non-verbal spells and to empty his mind etc.

It's too much to believe that after everything Dumbledore was wrong.....

It's like Lupin says; It comes down to whether you trust Dumbledore's judgement. I do, therefore I trust Severus.

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Old October 18th, 2006, 1:57 am
whos_who  Undisclosed.gif whos_who is offline
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Re: Spinner's End #2 - Severus Severed?

Ok, I know I might sound dense... But if Snape really wasn't still a Death Eater, then why did he run from the castle like that? For the sake of apperance, because he'd just killed Dumbldore? What? I don't get it.....

Apritiate replys plz.
By the way, great editorail and izzviggo? you made some good points. now i'm really confused. o well, catch you later.

Last edited by whos_who; October 18th, 2006 at 3:15 am.
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Old October 19th, 2006, 6:01 pm
Fire_Whiskey_  Male.gif Fire_Whiskey_ is offline
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Re: Spinner's End #2 - Severus Severed?

Hey all, firstly have to say that this is my first post and the editorial is very good.

After several re-reads I'm still undecided about Snape although I keep sliding towards 'he is on the right side/looking out for himself'.

One thing that got me was that Harry never has trusted him and he proved in HBP that his instincts are good. Why did DD never confide his reasons? Then it occured to me that Voldy and HP have a unique connection of minds, which Voldy can control quite readily (altho he has stopped for the meantime). Therefore if Harry ever trusted Snape would Voldy find this out and expose Snape. Thus Snape and DD made every effort to ensure Harry hated Snape.

What you think?

At the moment I don't fully trust Snape myself and I think that he will have to do something great/heroic to prove his worth and innonence.

PS Have to say well done to JK for the story as she has left it were Snape could go either way.

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Old December 14th, 2006, 3:52 am
hp_07  Undisclosed.gif hp_07 is offline
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Re: Spinner's End #2 - Severus Severed?

This is too argumentative seeing as the memories could easily have been tampered with.

By the way I am not suprised they do not allow you to discuss the 8 horcrux theory, so I will discuss it here. My opinion: where does it come from!? The books make it perfectly clear there can and will only be 7

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Old February 7th, 2007, 11:20 pm
Quickquill  Female.gif Quickquill is offline
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Re: Why Dumbledore might have wanted to die.

Originally Posted by SIR_ARKTARAKAR View Post
According to you , Dumbledore had decided that it was time for him to go.
Well, I've got one reason why he may have decided that it was time for him to let go.
He says in HBP that he didnít care about so many nameless, faceless people dying in the future, if at that point of time he didnít have to terrify Harry with the truth.

Maybe he realized that as long as he lived heíll always care about Harry and save him from danger. But, that would not save have saved the world. Because, according to a lot of people, probably Harry himself needed to die (after a lot of pain and suffering) in order to kill Lord Voldemort.

So, Dumbledore conceived the perfect plan. ďLet Snape kill me. Itíll save Draco, Snape and Lucius give Harry more reason to fight Voldemort and ensure that Harry fights his own battle.Ē

IDumbledore probably understood his own weakness, he loved Harry too much to see him die (or maybe he didnít even want Voldemort to die? Tom Riddle was Dumbledoreís student after all.). He probably understood that Harry had to be alone to be able to fight his own battles.
Nice analysis. JKR kept Dumbledore in as long as she could in order to have him prepare Harry for his final showdown with LV, but it was obvious from book one that Dumbledore could not last through the whole series. If he did, why have Harry defeat LV instead of this reknowned Dark Wizard hunter? Each generation has to fight it's own battles. Dumbledore was fortunate that he was told the prophecy, so that he could nurture and protect the next great dark wizard fighter and give him the tools he needed to succeed.

Regarding good Snape / bad Snape , Snape was a double agent with all that that implies. The nature of a double agent is to gain the trust of both sides, and to keep his masters happy by giving them a little information occasionaly in order to convince them that he is really on their side. Being an excellent occlumens, Snape has thus far succeeded in hiding his true allegience from both masters, and from the readers as well. He seems to have a number of equally justifiable reasons to be loyal to each side and each believes that they have his true allegiience.

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Old February 19th, 2007, 10:04 pm
dilys22  Undisclosed.gif dilys22 is offline
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Re: Spinner's End #2 - Severus Severed?

I fully agree that all the signs point towards Dumbledore not expecting to live longer than this year.
But he cannot have planned the set-up on the Astronomy tower. I don't know what he planned with Snape, what possibilities they discussed; but I am sure Dumbledore did not plan to have himself killed by Snape in front of witnesses.
I think he genuinely knew of Dracos mission.
There are numerous hints how he secured 'Hogwarts' - so that there was no way for Death Eaters entering. And then, even if Draco grew desperate and attacked him; Dumbledore would be able to deal with Draco as long as Draco was on his own. As indeed he did - even half dead and wandless; Dumbledore was able to talk to Draco, persuade him, get him to safety.
I suppose Snape and Dumbledore were trying to find a way to fulfil the UV without jeopardizing Snape's position in such a way. Maybe they wanted to create a very mysterious death with each side thinking what suited them best.

But Draco found a way to get Death Eaters in. And that changed the situation considerably. Dumbledore had messed up, he was checkmate. Snape had to kill him in public, write his own death sentence; no wonder Snape was angry. So angry that he could kill Dumbledore

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Old February 21st, 2007, 12:14 pm
SUNIL  Undisclosed.gif SUNIL is offline
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Re: Spinner's End #2 - Severus Severed?

i think severus snape is the OTHER in the prophecy
i dont think the prophecy can be considered TRUE if it mentions only HARRY as the one to vanquish voldy. dubbledore to has his powerss(SCENE OF BOOK FIVE)
i think the prophecy mentions THREE PEOPLE one the OTHER and the two are the vanquishers
and the OTHER will have to kill one of the vanquishers so the other one can live happYILY
DUMBLEDORE hence chose to sacrifice himself in the end and not harry
he might just have waited 4 long years to confirm whether HARRY will be able to YOU KNOW WHAT
HARRY survives his tests whether created by him or not

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Old March 24th, 2007, 8:36 pm
alexrosemc  Female.gif alexrosemc is offline
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Re: Spinner's End #2 - Severus Severed?

Good editorial!
this was great, it made points i already knew seem clearer, and allowed me to draw on my own conclusion which is : I Dont know! anything could happen in the world of JKR!

I am not worried, Harry. I am with you.
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Old May 3rd, 2007, 5:26 pm
rhoswenbud  Female.gif rhoswenbud is offline
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Re: Spinner's End #2 - Severus Severed?

ok.... I am new, so I have quite a lot to say... (sorry!!) This is a great editorial that raises lots of very interesting points...

I believe that Snape is good, for starters. He may not be the most aggreable of men, but under it all, he is pure of heart. He had a hard childhood and some pretty dreadful school years (for which he was not utterly blameless...) and so he made some pretty huge mistakes, the main one being, joining the DE... He realised his mistake a little too late, and now he is trapped as a double-agent. He would do anything to help Harry defeat Voldemort, but his dislike for him prevents him from forming any sort of bond, or displaying his true feelings. Apart from anything else... it would compromise his position as a "DE". He feels enormous guilt for having pretty much led the Potters to their death, and although he hated James, he did not want him dead, (maybe..) nor Lily or Harry. He has carried around bitterness, guilt and loneliness around inside of him for so many years. Now that he has killed DD, he has to prove to Harry that he is good (for himself as well as for Harry) and I think that he will die saving Harry's life. He will probably teach Harry something very important in doing so that will help him defeat the big V.

I don't think that Snape knew about Draco's task, but, being a highly skilled Legilimens, he was able to read it in Narcissa's mind... He probably also had an unbreakable vow (or else a very strict promise) with DD to protect all the students at all costs. I suggest a promise, because, as someone else has pointed out... who would have been the 3rd person?? oh well... Due to this aggreement, he had no choice other than to take the vow with Narcissa, as Draco is obviously a student, and a child.

DD knew that he was going to die. He knew not only that he was going to die, but that he HAD to die. Harry, as brave and resourceful as he is, could never had gotten through ANY of the things he has had to face without help. The final task that Harry has is to kill Voldy, now, DD knew that as long as he (DD) was alive, Harry would always rely upon him to tell him what to do, or to save the day (eg: in the Ministry...) and this task is something that Harry has to face alone. (although he will have masses of help to get there) Harry has to grow up and learn to think for himself, he needs to confront this harsh reality and now that pretty much all of his mentors (except Lupin, but he was never in the same league as Harry's Parents, Sirius and DD, unfortunately....) are dead, he has to be able to fight on his own. This is an important journey for Harry, and if DD had not died, he would never have become strong enough to defeat V.

This lack of maturity also explains why DD didn't teach Harry all the memory stuff sooner, he would not have understood it, or the significance of it. It may seem a little rushed to introduce him to all this stuff in the last year of DD's life, but this way, Harry has a clear and defined goal, and everything is clear in his mind.

Ok. rant over I think... I will now go. This is stupidly long... sorrrry!!! Feel free to argue with me.... hehe! xx rhoswen

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Old June 15th, 2007, 4:52 pm
Ethveg  Male.gif Ethveg is offline
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Re: Spinner's End #2 - Severus Severed?

First, I have no doubt Snape is loyal to the Order:

In "Spinner's End", the chapter where JKR tries to make everyone doubt Snape, the BIG clue is what is NOT said (like Holmes' "dog that didn't bark in the night"). Bella didn't ask about (and apparently didn't know about) Snape's sending the Order to the Ministry at the end of OotP.

There's no way he'd have done that if he were still a Deatheater (he could have pretended not to understand Harry's "He's got Padfoot at the place where it's hidden" and so still kept Dumbledore's confidence.)

Second, I believe Snape must have made an Unbreakable Vow to Dumbledore when he quit being a DE (to always work against V. and - maybe - to do whatever Dumbledore asked him to): McGonigal almost spells it out for us when she says that all those years she felt that Dumbledore must have had some kind of "ironclad" assurance that Snape had repented. And after Harry learns that Snape told V. about the prophecy and again asks Dumbledore why he trusts Snape, Dumbledore hesitates as though he's making a decision, THEN 'cuts Harry off'. He may have been deciding whether or not to tell Harry about Snape's UV and decided not to. Good choice! When Harry faces V. we don't want him (poor occlumens that he is, as Snape reminds him) KNOWING that Snape is on his side, else V. would know it too, in moments.

And if Snape DID make the UV with Dumbledore, then Snape was in a double-bind when Bella laughed at the possibility of his making an Unbreakable Vow to Narcissa. If he did NOT do it she'd tell everyone and bring Snape's loyalty into question even more (and we know he's thinking about this because when he does take the vow he tells Bella that now she can go and tell all the DE's who are bad-mouthing him to V that he's proven his loyalty once again.) In that case if he does not make the vow to Narcissa he's breaking the UV he made to Dumbledore (since he's not doing everything he can to get Voldemort. The question I still have it why he looked out the window before making the Vow.)

For those who don't see how he could then have killed Dumbledore, THAT's what Hagrid overheard them arguing about: Snape said he no longer wanted to kill him and Dumbledore reminded him that he had "promised." Clearly Snape told Dumbledore about his Vow to N. and Dumbledore told him that if it came to that he (Snape) must "kill" Dumbldore (the quotation marks are explained below.)

And D's "Please, Severus" was a plea for him to do what he did (whatever it was - certainly NOT "avada kadavra", again, see below.)

Third (a BIG clue) what was the ANSWER to the very first question Snape ever asked Harry? And what does Slughorn tell us (at the Xmas party) about Snape and that Draught? And what did Dumbledore mean when he told Draco that V. couldn't kill him if he was "already dead"? And how does that relate to what Snape ACTUALLY did on the tower: remember that all 3 Riddles were found still seated at the table; how then was Dumbledore lifted off his feet by "the same(?)" curse and thrown over the turret? Remember that Crouch/Moody told the class they could all point their wands at him and say the curse and nothing would happen - it's not the words that are said which produce the effect (as Bella tells Harry about the Unforgivable Curses, "You have to mean it.")

And Snape's main lesson for the DADA class in HBP is the use of non-verbal spells. So what spell did he REALLY cast that night?

Finally, (for those who didn't see it when JKR pointed at it) Snape was in love with Lily: it's all but said in Dumbledore's conversation with Harry in "The Cave" (D: 'Snape was sorry about J + L.' H: 'No, he wasn't sorry about J.') , and then Lupin shows it to us again, after Dumbledore's death, after which Harry says Snape had no use for Lily because she was a M*dbl**d. But we already know he misinterpreted feeling in that penseive scene - he told Lupin and Sirius that Lily hated James. So he misread Snape too. But we're not supposed too, as these passages show.)

Remember the scene in the penseive with Snape's witch mother submitting to his Muggle father. A very weak mother - one not capable of protecting him - for Snape's formative years. And a hatred for Muggles.

Then Lily protects him from James. And as Slughorn (a Slytherin) tells us, it wasn't possible to know Lily and not like her. So she set the stage for changing Snape's view of Muggles. And if Snape coveted Lily, he would HATE Harry for being JAMES' son with Lily - talk about jealousy from a little boy so unloved that he spends his time klling flies, who then finds a protective mother figure, not afraid to use her own magic to help him, in a woman who's also very attractive.

But I'm not sure what role that will play in DH.

"Don't let the Muggles get you down!"
--- Ron Weasley, on Harry's first-ever birthday card.

Last edited by Ethveg; June 15th, 2007 at 5:11 pm.
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