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How will Snape prove his loyalty?



 
 
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  #121  
Old March 26th, 2006, 7:50 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

I think he'll prove his loyalty. How, though, I'm not sure. Right now, I'm thinking the best way would be to go the memory route. Pull out the ol' Pensieve and dive on in. However, I have another theory...Snape claimed that he helped to hand Emmeline Vance over to the Death Eaters. If he's good, she could still be alive. She could vouch for him.


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  #122  
Old March 26th, 2006, 7:59 am
ladyblack23  Female.gif ladyblack23 is offline
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Aha - nice one DarkDaysAhead! Emmeline Vance might very well be Snape's key to innocence. I had never before considered that she might not be dead. Its unlikely I guess, but a good theory never the less.

I have just finished reading the opening of OotP, and was once again dumbstruck by all the wierd things the Petunia says. I was most intrigued by the "I heard that -awful boy- telling her about [dementors]" (not exact quote).

Now why would she call James awful - hes meant to be charming, cheeky, clever, and hansome. I think, that it was Snape who is the 'awful boy'. This forges a possible link between Petunia and Snape. Petunia is another person who might know something that proves Snape innocent.


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  #123  
Old March 26th, 2006, 8:15 pm
mwbashful18  Female.gif mwbashful18 is offline
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

While I believe Emmeline Vance may be alive, the post above,

Quote:
Snape claimed that he helped to hand Emmeline Vance over to the Death Eaters. If he's good, she could still be alive.
is a bit foggy on the thought. Snape claimed he "handed" Vance over to Bellatrix. She is obviously in the know on Vance being dead. We don't know who actually saw the crime scenes of Bones and Vance with the exception of the Muggles and some from the Ministry. So Bella may just know by hearsay.

Furthermore, in the beginnng of HBP, we are treated to Slughorn hiding in a Muggle home using magic to make it appear destroyed and as though someone died. Dumbledore was obviously not fooled. Any stupid DE would be, however. We've seen their actions since GoF and OotP, and DEs, while rotten, are rather stupid, with the exceptions of Snape (way back when), Lucius to a degree, Barty, Jr., and Bella. So, Muggles, having found the crime scenes, were obviously thinking murder and break-in and such. We don't know how far magic can go when used to "cover up" stuff. Dumbledore told Draco (this part is only in the American edition) that he can hide he and his mother in ways that would make anyone think they were dead. If Dumbledore has that ability, did he employ it in the cases of Ollivander, Amelia Bones, Vance, and Fortescue? And, if he did, where did they go and who is helping them?

Which brings me to Snape and Spinner's End. The house was described as looking as though no one ever lives there. Rowling uses this statement to possibly suggest that Snape stays at Hogwarts throughout the summer (rather Harry-like, in a way--Harry would have done that if he could have). Or, stays at his home very briefly. Short enough so that he never cleans or buys anything new (he must be rich, saving all the salary he receives from teaching!--what could he possibly buy other than the black Maestro-cloak and block frock coat and potions ingredients?).

So, the home suddenly has Snape living there in July, with Wormtail too! He suddenly has cases of elf wine in the kitchen, and a Muggle house has a secret door. Sounds fishy. Why is Snape stocking up on wine? Why does he have a secret door where he keeps Wormtail locked up? Why is he annoyed to find Wormtail snooping round his home as though he is hiding something (if that's not a glaring "LV knows!" sign, what is)?

More questions: Why has Rowling never indicated anything Snape has done for the Order? She implied that it was Snape alerting Dumbledore that Voldemort could possess Harry in OotP, but never officially declared it. Why does Snape want Harry to hate him? It certainly seems so. Why did Dumbledore seem to pass over Harry's comment about Bones and Vance as though their deaths were inconsequential. Harry even thought it was odd, as I recall. Dumbledore seemed to have an attitude like, "Oh, yeah, them too, forgot about them. Sad."

We learned in OotP that part of the Order's job is to recruit other wizards to the Order. What if Snape had been the one to recruit Bones, Ollie, and Fortescue (Vance was already in the mix), only to learn from Voldemort that those four were targets? So, he relocates them to Spinner's End, and he and Dumbledore make Vance and Bones appear to have been killed at home. So Snape manufactures a "memory" of "killing" Bones and Vance for Voldemort to see. Voldemort is pleased Snape did the dirty work (though I still think Voldemort isn't buying Snape's loyalty). Snape claims to Voldemort that Ollivander and Fortescue had already picked up and left town like everybody else had, when in fact, he and Dumbledore know they're at Spinner's End. It is quite possible that Snape has a secret cellar that has been magicked into a place for those four to stay. Then they can use Apparating, Polyjuice Potion, and Invisibility Cloaks to go about their business. But, Voldemort suspects something; he better or his character will become flat if he actually falls for everything Snape says.

It's far-reaching, but I think that the hints have been laid out for us. So many things that I mentioned above don't make sense (Wormtail snooping, the wine, Dumbledore's statement to Draco about hiding people, Slughorn's entrance, etc.) if they don't contribute to a further plot regarding "hiding people" or "disappearance acts."

As far as Snape proving himself to the Order, I think it will come down to three possibilities:

1. If he's hiding anybody, they can come forward and vouch for him. They won't know to do so since I doubt Snape will be going back home to live in the lap of leisure. I think the rubbish will have hit the fan for him regarding Draco and the handling of that situation. But, what if Harry learns from Petunia important details about Snape and Lily. I like the theory that Petunia and Lily once lived on or near Spinner's End and that Harry will be able to go there. He, Ron, and Hermione might be able to find and capture Pettigrew? I think he'd transform, but Hermione, growing a brain since GoF and Skeeter, will stick him in a container with that Unbreakable Charm on it. They could return him to Lupin who'd keep him prisoner. Then, they might find anybody who may be in hiding at Spinner's End. This would be probably about 100-200 pages in.

2. The Pensieve. I like this theory best. Dumbledore leaves Harry the Pensieve so that he can find out the truth about Snape. I particulary like the idea that Dumbledore has the memory of the night Snape came to him with the news that Voldemort was going after the Potters. Also, the memory of Snape and Dumbledore's agreement to work privately throughout Harry's 6th year at Hogwarts. There's Harry's proof, in the flesh. However, Harry would be undoubtely skeptical. I think it would take all of these things to break through his prejudices.

3. Snape's outright confession of the truth. Let Harry see what Snape looks like when he's "remorseful." Snape may be a "right, foul git", but it doesn't mean he isn't working against evil.


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Last edited by mwbashful18; March 26th, 2006 at 8:40 pm.
  #124  
Old March 27th, 2006, 7:03 pm
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DarkDaysAhead  Female.gif DarkDaysAhead is offline
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mwbashful18
While I believe Emmeline Vance may be alive, the post above,is a bit foggy on the thought.
How is my post "foggy"?

Quote:
Snape claimed he "handed" Vance over to Bellatrix.
No, he didn't. He didn't say he handed her over to Bella.

Quote:
She is obviously in the know on Vance being dead.
Nope, she isn't necessarily "in the know". Let me quote that scene for you.

Spinner's End, Half-Blood Prince"I am not the Secret-Keeper; I cannot speak the name of the place. You understand how the enchantment works, I think? The Dark Lord is satisfied with the information I have passed him on the Order. It led, as perhaps you have guessed, to the recent capture and murder of Emmeline Vance, and it certainly helped dispose of Sirius Black, though I give you full credit for finishing him off."


Recent capture. Recent. That leaves her open, we don't know what happened, we don't know where it happened, and, as far as I know, we don't know why she was taken.

Quote:
We don't know who actually saw the crime scenes of Bones and Vance with the exception of the Muggles and some from the Ministry. So Bella may just know by hearsay.
I don't know where you're getting your information from so I'm a bit confused. I don't recall having heard anything about Muggles seeing any crime scene let alone the Ministry. He said she was captured and murdered so there wouldn't necessarily be a "crime scene".

Quote:
We don't know how far magic can go when used to "cover up" stuff. Dumbledore told Draco (this part is only in the American edition) that he can hide he and his mother in ways that would make anyone think they were dead. If Dumbledore has that ability, did he employ it in the cases of Ollivander, Amelia Bones, Vance, and Fortescue? And, if he did, where did they go and who is helping them?
My thinking exactly. We simply don't know, it wouldn't be too smart to take her completely out of the picture until all is said and done.


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  #125  
Old March 27th, 2006, 7:05 pm
bex93  Female.gif bex93 is offline
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

He will express his love for erm..well you know!


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  #126  
Old March 28th, 2006, 1:40 pm
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

I think Fred and George will be captured by the Death Eaters and nearly killed, but Snape will save them. That's just one of the ways, though. But in the end he will die.

Snape is GOOD, everyone...


  #127  
Old March 28th, 2006, 2:21 pm
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Snape will redeem himself by saving harry in the end


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  #128  
Old April 4th, 2006, 6:43 pm
Arashel  Female.gif Arashel is offline
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Just like Harry overheard all that info about Sirius being his Godfather, I think Harry is going to overhear something HUGE about Snape.

Didn't Dumbledore give evidence of Snape's loyalties during that trial? So someone in the ministry might know something, perhaps let Harry know at a moment when the topic of Snape comes up in a crowd as gossip? I'm thinking people around Harry are going to talk about Snape and someone with some interesting info is going to give away secrets in the heat of gossip and conversation. Especially if you're at a wedding and doing some heavy drinking, tongues will slip.

Wedding:
"Ah, that was a suprise and Snape too!"
"I knew it all along Severus Snape was no good."
"And Dumbledore trusted him! Do you know what Dumbledore told us all those years ago when he was trying to protect that murderer?"

Then Harry finds out the real reason why Dumbledore trusted Snape, just as he "overheard" Sirius was his godfather. People tend to talk about bad people like murderers and gossip and give away secrets. I think Harry will find put some shocking information about why, and hunt Snape down to find out if it's true or not, then be forced to work alongside Snape for some reason to find the other Horcruxes. Harry is going to find himself there where there is enough reason to finally trust Snape as Dumbledore did. I'm getting the feeling Snape and Harry are going to work side by side for part of the next book, even though Harry loathes Snape, he's going to find out something that will make him trust him just like Dumbledore did. And whatever it is, it's got to be HUGE to make Harry like trust Snape finally.

So Snape won't need to prove anything to anyone, Harry will be the first to know and when others see Harry trusting Snape, and speaking on his behalf, others--even though slightly weary at trusting Snape--will have no choice but to because Harry does. And that in itself is sort of strange and shocking after all the years of mistrust. And I'm sure another order member will see if Harry is being controlled by Snape to say all that.


  #129  
Old April 4th, 2006, 8:30 pm
smurfkin  Female.gif smurfkin is offline
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Too be entirely honest, I don't think Snape would die for Harry. That's something you do for someone you like. In the end, if Harry and Snape both live, I don't think that they will be friends. I think they will have grudging acceptance at best.

I think Snape probably not evil; "good" may be taking things a bit far. He is, and from what we can tell always has been, a nasty, mean, vindictive person.

That aside, I was rereading (again) recently and I noticed soemthing:
Quote:
"My orders were to remain behind," said Snape. "Prehaps you disagree with the Dark Lord, prehaps you think that Dumbledore would not have noticed if I had joined forces with the Death Eatersto fight the Order or the Phoenix? And - forgive me - you speak of dangers . . . you were facing six teenagers at the time, were you not?"

"They were joined, as you very well know, by half the Order before long!" snarled Bellatrix.
when taken with Dumbledore in OotP:
Quote:
"You see, when you gave Professor Snape that cryptic warning, her realized that you had had a vision of Sirius trapped in the bowels of the Department of Mysteries. He, like you, attempted to contact Sirius at once, I should explain that members of the Order of the Phoenix have mroe reliable methods of communicating than the fire in Dolores Umbridge's office. Professor Snape found that Sirius was alive and safe in Grimmauld Place.
"When, however, you did not return from you trip into the forest with Dolores Umbridge, Professor Snape grew worried that you still believed Sirius to be a captive of Lord Voldemort's. He alerted certian Order members at once."
He could have pretended that he had no idea what Harry was talking about. He could have delayed until it would have been too late for the Order to do anything. However, he alerted the Order in plenty of time to assist and Bellatrix at least had no notion that this was his doing. It is entirely possible that Voldemort did, but, as his intentions were thwarted, I find it highly unlikely that Snape would still be a favorite if this were the case.


  #130  
Old April 4th, 2006, 8:59 pm
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

The only way I see Snape proving his loyalty would be to take a Avada Kedavra from Voldemort for Harry. Otherwise I just don't see Harry accepting any information trying to show Snape is good after watching him murder Dumbledore.


  #131  
Old April 4th, 2006, 9:14 pm
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

He could start by coming forth & telling Harry where Dumbledore has been hiding, if he doesn't do this he's working for ol' Voldie in my opinion. See I'm not a believer that Dumbledore is in fact really dead, so until otherwise proven...


  #132  
Old April 4th, 2006, 9:18 pm
smurfkin  Female.gif smurfkin is offline
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

magic1013
Its a bit off topic, but . . .

I would think that Dumbledore showing up in the protrait gallery of former heads of Hogwarts would constitute pretty solid proof.

Besides that, it's necessary for the plot and Harry's character development. Harry has to be the one to defeat Voldemort, not Dumbledore using Harry as a puppet.


  #133  
Old April 4th, 2006, 9:45 pm
mwbashful18  Female.gif mwbashful18 is offline
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Quote:
DarkDaysAhead: How is my post "foggy"?
I only said it was foggy because of your wording. It seemed to be too simple. You said:
Quote:
If he's good, she could still be alive. She could vouch for him/
Quote:
Quote:
Snape claimed he "handed" Vance over to Bellatrix.
DarkDaysAhead: No, he didn't. He didn't say he handed her over to Bella.
I didn't mean that he handed Vance over to Bella. What I meant by my wording was: Snape claimed to Bella that he had been the one to hand over Vance to Voldemort.

Quote:
DarkDaysAhead: Nope, she isn't necessarily "in the know". Let me quote that scene for you:
Spinner's End, Half-Blood Prince: "I am not the Secret-Keeper; I cannot speak the name of the place. You understand how the enchantment works, I think? The Dark Lord is satisfied with the information I have passed him on the Order. It led, as perhaps you have guessed, to the recent capture and murder of Emmeline Vance, and it certainly helped dispose of Sirius Black, though I give you full credit for finishing him off."

Recent capture. Recent. That leaves her open, we don't know what happened, we don't know where it happened, and, as far as I know, we don't know why she was taken.
Bella was "in the know" because she was aware that Vance had been attacked. She knew something happened to that particular person. And furthermore, and this ties into a newer post on here, Snape was not indirectly responsible at all for Sirius' death. Snape used Umbridge's fire to check the Black House and found Lupin. As far as we've learned, Snape didn't speak to Sirius, Lupin did. It was Sirius' choice to go and Lupin didn't try to stop him. And back to Vance, how prominent was she? Not too, that's for sure. So Snape provided info about the Order. What was it, a few names that Voldemort could have found out anywhere?

Quote:
Quote:
We don't know who actually saw the crime scenes of Bones and Vance with the exception of the Muggles and some from the Ministry. So Bella may just know by hearsay.
DarkDaysAhead: I don't know where you're getting your information from so I'm a bit confused. I don't recall having heard anything about Muggles seeing any crime scene let alone the Ministry. He said she was captured and murdered so there wouldn't necessarily be a "crime scene".
At some point in the first chapter it is stated that the Muggle police found the crime scene and the Ministry people had difficulties because of the fact. And captured doesn't imply abducted. Captured and murdered could mean attacked in her own home and found dead. There was no description of how it looked except for it wasn't pretty. So how do we know if there were "bits" laying round or a whole body or if all they found was smeared blood and a destroyed home? The latter could imply a staged murder.

I merely think that the "missing and presumed dead" people may have some bearing on Snape's guilt or innocence.

I'm still leaning towards the Pensieve or an outright confession of secrets. Some kind of arranged or otherwise meeting where Snape lays it out for Harry in a semi-polite tone. Less glaring, more "sense of urgency."


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Last edited by mwbashful18; April 4th, 2006 at 9:50 pm.
  #134  
Old April 4th, 2006, 11:37 pm
aggiefan1206  Female.gif aggiefan1206 is offline
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

However Snape proves his loyalty better be very convincing beacuse I know that Harry will not trust anything that he says. Unless Dumbledore left Harry some imfomation reguarding Snape and some conversations they have had. Maybe he left more memories for Harry to look at? But Snape and how to prove his loyalty a tough one. If he is on the orders side perhaps allow Harry to read his thoughts? As far as Voldemorts side if Voldemort believes Snape has done something against his will he is in big trouble. Snape has a lot of work to do at proving either side for sure. Should be interesting to see how Snape may or may not prove his loyalties to either side or the other. We may not know until the final battle.

ps the only way I think that this could be resovled if something is left for Harry in the form of instructions from Dumbledore.


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  #135  
Old April 5th, 2006, 1:36 am
smurfkin  Female.gif smurfkin is offline
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

To be honest, I'm not sure that Snape's loyalty would be to the Order or Harry, per se. I think he is firmly on the not-Voldemort side, and I think that he sees the Order as the best apparatus for taking Voldemort down. But Dumbledore said that Snape had sincere regrets over who Voldemort was killing, not that he now realizes that Voldemort is the scourge of the earth. I think that the object of Snape's loyalty will be revealed in VII and that is what will convince whoever needs convincing.

Again, I don't think Harry will ever appreciate Snape. I think Harry will continue to despise Snape forever. It is just barely possible that finding out Snape is loyal to Lily would change Harry's mind, but I won't bet on it, and I wouldn't advise anyone else to.


  #136  
Old April 5th, 2006, 4:45 pm
magic1013  Female.gif magic1013 is offline
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurfkin
magic1013
Its a bit off topic, but . . .

I would think that Dumbledore showing up in the protrait gallery of former heads of Hogwarts would constitute pretty solid proof.
The portrait thing is a very good point I see what you mean, but I still don't buy it. He would be 'expected' to show up in the portrait if he died... so if his death really is a ruse then him showing up in the portrait could be an act too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurfkin
Besides that, it's necessary for the plot and Harry's character development. Harry has to be the one to defeat Voldemort, not Dumbledore using Harry as a puppet.
Harry has to kill (or be killed) Voldemort in the end regardless according to the prophecy, I can't see Dumbledore reappearing interrupting that. In my mind it would make Harry feel that much stronger.


  #137  
Old April 6th, 2006, 7:59 pm
Isobel  Female.gif Isobel is offline
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

I reckon Snape is loyal to just one person, and that is to Severus Snape.

Snape turned spy a year before Voldemort's defeat, the exact time when he overheard the prophesy of his downfall. It made sense for Snape to change sides.

We have learnt from Book 6 that Dumbledore is not infallible and that he has his faults, one of them being putting too much trust in people.

I very much doubt if Snape's character will change significantly in the last book, he will just have to decide before the final confrontation between Harry and Voldemort whose side he is on. But you can bet anything that the decision will be based on his own survival, not out of loyalty to anyone person or cause.


  #138  
Old April 12th, 2006, 8:03 am
MerlinsBeardd  Male.gif MerlinsBeardd is offline
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

I don't think Snape has to die to prove his loyalty (I do believe he is good) There are hundreds of reasons to believe he is. To the matter at hand. I think that Snape wont redeem himself until the final battle (if there is a final battle) when it's harry and the DA against Tommy (Voldemort) and the DEs. I think that they will be fighting and Snape will "miss" with a few spells and "accidentally" hit death eaters. Eventually he will have to do most of the dirty work, namely using unforgiveable curses, on the death eaters. Hermione with her 'keen eyes' will notice, and Snape will have finally proven to Harry, whos side he is on.


  #139  
Old April 12th, 2006, 5:16 pm
Altoona Altoona is offline
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

My guess for showing his loyalty to Dumbledore is that Snape's Patronus had changed after his true remorse he felt after telling Voldemort about the prophecy, just like Tonks's Patronus had changed after her feeling guilty over Sirius's death in OotP. I can imagine this information being finally transferred to Harry through Dumbledore's portrait (maybe even the Chocolate Frog cards?!), Fawkes or a kind of "last will" that Harry will find.


  #140  
Old April 13th, 2006, 10:00 pm
animaguspadfoot  Undisclosed.gif animaguspadfoot is offline
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

I think Harry will always hate Snape and Snape will always hate Harry. I think Harry will see Dumbledore ask Snape to kll him, and Snape begging dumbledore not to ask this of him. How he will see this I think he will see this in a peninsive (sp?).


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