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How will Snape prove his loyalty?



 
 
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  #141  
Old April 13th, 2006, 11:54 pm
omnedon11  Male.gif omnedon11 is offline
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isobel
I reckon Snape is loyal to just one person, and that is to Severus Snape.

Snape turned spy a year before Voldemort's defeat, the exact time when he overheard the prophesy of his downfall. It made sense for Snape to change sides.

We have learnt from Book 6 that Dumbledore is not infallible and that he has his faults, one of them being putting too much trust in people.

I very much doubt if Snape's character will change significantly in the last book, he will just have to decide before the final confrontation between Harry and Voldemort whose side he is on. But you can bet anything that the decision will be based on his own survival, not out of loyalty to anyone person or cause.
I agree with everything you have said, except for the last paragraph.

I believe Snape is only looking out for himself, in typical Slytherin style. I think he found himself caught between two powerful wizards. I think ultimately he wants to be free of both.

I'm not sure that LV will be happy with Snape for killing DD. LV may see Snape as a threat. The one who killed DD when he could not. Sooner of later, there will be a confrontation between Snape and LV.

So Snape's survival depends on him helping Harry defeat LV.

Now the question for me is what happens between Harry and Snape after LV is defeated? Do they go their separate ways? Or is there a final confrontation between Harry and Snape. Considering how easily Snape handled Harry at the end of HBP, Snape would think he would come out on top.


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  #142  
Old April 14th, 2006, 1:01 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

ColourChangeInk and altoona already mentioned the possible use of Fawkes. Member aislin had a fabulous idea on another thread, she suggested that Fawkes may have left Hogwarts because everyone began doubting Dumbledore's judgment about Snape. aislin pointed out that in CoS Fawkes is at hogwarts when Dumbledore is not and Dumbledore says that he will never be gone (as in his phoenix?) as long has there are those that are loyal to him. Everyone's loyalty has been shaken, and Fawkes vanished. Perhaps Fawkes is with Snape if Snape is the only member that has complete faith in Dumbledore's judgment at this moment? That would give Harry pause! I'll mention to aislin that I posted the idea here and perhaps she'll provide her canon support with a far better explanation than I've given.


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  #143  
Old April 14th, 2006, 1:14 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

I think Snape will prove his loyalty by doing something for Harry, like saving his life or helping Harry destory a Horcrux. He will probably be a big factor in the final battle between Harry and LV, anyway that is the way I see it, but none the less I see Snape being a key to book seven.


  #144  
Old April 14th, 2006, 1:33 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

I see that HPSpec has mentioned my idea and I thought I would just post it so you could see what she was referring to. I think if Fawkes does have a role to play in any of this, it would be visible proof of Snape's loyalty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aislin
Fawkes is the symbol of loyalty to Dumbledore. He comes to Harry in CoS because Harry has said that Dumbledore, not Voldemort, is the greatest wizard in the world. Also, in CoS, Dumbledore says that he will never be gone from Hogwarts as long as those who remain are loyal to him. What happens after Dumbledore's death? Fawkes leaves the castle. Noticably, Fawkes leaves after singing a song, during which those who remained have already decieded against Snape. Now, if you are truly loyal to Dumbledore, does that mean that you have faith in his descions, even if you don't always understand them? Lupin said at Christmas that "It comes down to whether or not you trust Dumbledore's judgement. I do, therefore, I trust Severus", but how quickly does he jump to the conclusion that Dumbledore was wrong about Snape and that Snape is evil? Immedialty after hearing Harry's account of the Tower. In fact, no one sticks up for Snape. No one. How soon after the Tower incident does Harry start to question Dumbledore's judgements? And not just Harry, everyone. Yes, how they reacted is how anyone would react. But, all the unwavering faith in Dumbledore was gone, an in that instant, Fawkes left. If this is true, than Fawkes cannot be Harry's pet until he accepts Snape and thus, is back to trusting Dumbledore's judgement.

Fawkes' name comes from Guy Fawkes who tried to blow up Parliament in 1605. The plot was to kill the king James I, the Prince of Wales and as many members of Parliament as possbile. The plot was hatched because Guy Fawkes and crew were Catholic at a time when England was heavily Protestant. They had hoped that James I (James VI in Scotland, he became James I of England and thus the United Kingdom began because Elizabeth I had no children and he was the son of her cousin) would be more tolerant of Catholics because his mother, Mary Queen of Scots, was Catholic. They got hold of 36 barrels of gunpowder and stored them in the cellars of the House of Lords (English Parliament has 2 houses; the House of Lords and the House of Commons). The day before the plan was to go into action, several of the members in on the plot had second thoughts and are belived to have sent a letter warning friends not to go to Parliament the next day. The letter reached the king who had Guy Fawkes arrested, tortured and executed. To this day, on November 5 (the day the plot was foiled in 1605), Bonfire Night is celebrated (in book 1, the news reporters refer to Bonfire Night) and all over Britain, people celebrate the botched plan to blow up Parliament.

Fawkes is a phoenix who dies in flames and then is reborn through the ashes-a very fitting parrellel to someone who tried to blow up Parliament.

As for Hagrid counter-arguement (a very good one indeed), I think that his first reaction is interesting. He does not want to believe Harry (who does?) but I think that after he saw Dumbledore's body, the reality set in. I do not think Dumbledore would be angry with anyone for reacting the way that they did, he would have understood it as human nature (which it is) but I do think he would have been slightly disappointed that everyone's faith in Snape was gone in an instant. Dumbledore has such high regard for people that I don't think he would understand why people sided against Snape. The evidence is over-whelming. However, eye witness testimony has been proven in courts not to always be 100% accurate. Yes, Harry did see Snape cast the Avada Kedavra curse, there is no denying that, but there may be stuff he did not see (the conversation between Snape and Dumbledore the moments before it happened). If Harry was put on the witness stand, the cross examiner would point out Harry's pre-existing bias against Snape in an effort to poke holes in Harry's testimony.

I think Fawkes' leaving is very symbolic. Maybe he did just leave because his master was dead. Fawkes is, after all, a very loyal pet. But I think there is more to Fawkes' leaving-the timing of it makes me wonder why.


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  #145  
Old April 14th, 2006, 1:40 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

I don't think Snape will prove his loyalty because he is not and never was loyal to the Order. I believe that he was always loyal to Voldemort. Even if he wanted to prove his loyalty, nobody would believe him. Harry has always hated him. And if the others didn't previously, they do now because of what he did to Dumbledore. Nobody would ever trust him agian.


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  #146  
Old April 14th, 2006, 2:09 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

There were quite a few good ideas on the subject here, sorry that I won't quote by name when I mention one. I also though possible that Dumbledore might have left something behind (a will) for Harry to understand Snape, but what bothers me is that Harry has heard all too many times from Dumbledore that Snape is to be trusted, and still didn't, so there has to be something really convincing in that letter to make him change his mind, especially after witnessing the murder.
I also think it was possible for Dumbledore and Snape to have made the Unbreakable Vow, and I don't think Dumbledore had to force it, meaning that if Snape really wanted to prove his loyalty he could have just offered for it. But then I doubt that Hagrid was their bounder not just becouse he spills the beans too easy, but becouse you need a wand for it, and Hagrid's not allowed to have one. The pink umbrella might not do the trick.
So, what I'm getting at is that the proof Snape has to provide most probably cost him his life, for it could be nothing else then a timely action during the Final Fight. I could think of him telling Harry, but I doubt Harry would have the patience to listen to him should Snape just step out in front of him somewhere. I don't even see where could they possibly meet before the very end of the story, for now noone believes in Snape, he really has lost every confidence he ever had for that was first of all confidence in Dumbledore, not him.


  #147  
Old April 14th, 2006, 3:15 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by halfbloodsnape
So, what I'm getting at is that the proof Snape has to provide most probably cost him his life
I agree, I seriously doubt that Snape is going to make it to the end of the series.
Quote:
Originally Posted by halfbloodsnape
I could think of him telling Harry, but I doubt Harry would have the patience to listen to him should Snape just step out in front of him somewhere. I don't even see where could they possibly meet before the very end of the story, for now noone believes in Snape, he really has lost every confidence he ever had for that was first of all confidence in Dumbledore, not him.
What do you think of aislin's idea about Fawkes? I'm guessing that Fawkes is the 'possible other pet' that JKR referred to but Fawkes will not settle on Harry until Harry has reproven his loyalty to Dumbledore by trusting Snape. Fawkes may go to Snape now (since it is possible that Snape is the only individual truly loyal to Dumbledore's plan at the moment) but perhaps will flit between Harry (the one he wants to be with) and Hagrid (I think Hagrid will return to believing Harry misunderstood all that happened on the tower and will reaffirm his faith in Dumbledore) and Snape (not that Fawkes can spend much time with him if he has gone to Voldemort to burrow into the Death Eater's even more deeply). Perhaps Snape and Hagrid will communicate, someone pointed out that Hagrid seems to be one of the few people that Snape has sent his patronus to. There is some thought that his patronus gives away Snape's true loyalties. I'd be interested if any of you know whether anyone other than Dumbledore and Hagrid have seen Snape's patronus.


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  #148  
Old April 14th, 2006, 3:29 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

I really like this idea about Fawkes, and I also liked the way aislin presented the whole thing about what does it really mean to be loyal to Dumbledore. That stands whether Fawkes is or is not "the possible other pet".


  #149  
Old April 14th, 2006, 3:39 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Assuming that he is loyal to the order, i think he will prove his loyalty by assisting Harry take out voldemort, one of those last-minute "oh snape really is a good guy" moments... i actually think he may have done this already by saying to harry "no unforgivable curses for you potter" at the end of HBP... but then im on the train that snape isnt evil because i hope dumbledore didnt die in vain!!


Assuming he is loyal to voldy, id say he's already proved it by takin out dumbledore!!


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  #150  
Old April 14th, 2006, 3:43 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this. (Sorry if they have...) After Voldemort's return and Harry is in the hospital on p.713 of GoF Dumbledore is speaking to Snape.

Quote:
"Severus," said Dumbledore, turning to Snape, "you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready....if you are prepared..."
"I am" said Snape.
He looked slightly paler than usual, and his cold black eyes glittered strangely.
"Then good luck," said Dumbledore, and he watched with a trace of apprehension on his face, as Snape swept wordlessly after Sirius.
It was several minutes before Dumbledore spoke again.

Then when Snape is answering Bellatrix's questions about why he did not return at once when he felt the Dark Mark he said he waited 2 hours and returned on Dumbledore orders. HBP p.28

I think Snape is really loyal to Dumbledore and knows the only way for the Harry and The Order of the Phoenix to be victorious over Voldemort is to act loyal to him (Voldemort).

I am one who believes Dumbledore is not dead. Many of the clues to show proof he is could be planted and manipulated. Dumbledore is a wizard who leaves nothing to chance, but would have thought through ever detail.


  #151  
Old April 14th, 2006, 4:17 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by efan1999

I am one who believes Dumbledore is not dead. Many of the clues to show proof he is could be planted and manipulated. Dumbledore is a wizard who leaves nothing to chance, but would have thought through ever detail.
With everything else you said I mostly agree, but not this one. If Dumbledore's alive then Snape's dead, or already should be dead, for he made the Unbreakable Vow to carry out Draco's quest should he fail it. Draco doesn't have any more chanses of killing Dumbledore, that was his chanse. He failed. If Snape also failed, he should have died, but he didn't. (I think Dumbledore's dead, and I also think he knew this would happen)


  #152  
Old April 14th, 2006, 5:34 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HPSpec
What do you think of aislin's idea about Fawkes? I'm guessing that Fawkes is the 'possible other pet' that JKR referred to but Fawkes will not settle on Harry until Harry has reproven his loyalty to Dumbledore by trusting Snape. Fawkes may go to Snape now (since it is possible that Snape is the only individual truly loyal to Dumbledore's plan at the moment) but perhaps will flit between Harry (the one he wants to be with) and Hagrid (I think Hagrid will return to believing Harry misunderstood all that happened on the tower and will reaffirm his faith in Dumbledore) and Snape (not that Fawkes can spend much time with him if he has gone to Voldemort to burrow into the Death Eater's even more deeply).
The Fawkes idea is quite neat, and would be foreshadowed by the events of CoS, and also a scene in HBP where Fawkes makes a sound when Snape is mentioned. However, I sort of hope it won't be the solution. I would prefer a non-magical solution. Not a changed Patronus, or Pensieve memory, or Dumbledore's portrait, either. What I would LOVE to see is a Shrieking Shack end of PoA style confrontation between Snape and Harry. Because something magical is just too easy. If Harry somehow came to trust Snape without having ironclad proof of some magical sort, that would be more challenging for him, and would tie right in to the main idea of Harry's power being love. And if Rowling wrote it, it would be a stunningly beautiful and emotional scene, IMO.


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  #153  
Old April 14th, 2006, 8:04 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

I of all people always try to find the best in people, but with Snape, I just can't do it. He is not a good person!


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  #154  
Old April 14th, 2006, 8:05 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

How will Snape prove his loyalty?

The only way he could possibly do so is to eventually prove to Harry that Dumbledore is not really dead.

Perhaps Dumbledore had a good wizard's equivalent to a Horcrux which will allow him to come back--for real. I still cannot dismiss the battle between Harry and Snape where Snape appears to be still trying to teach Harry. Remember also that Snape saved Harry's life at the end HBP with that flimsy excuse to the DEs. Something is not quite right. There is more to that scene on the Tower than what we are currently privy to.


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  #155  
Old April 14th, 2006, 4:25 pm
efan1999  Undisclosed.gif efan1999 is offline
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

halfbloodsnape.............um...I'll have to think on that for awhile .....I tend to agree with MirrorIsKey though......there is something ....


  #156  
Old April 15th, 2006, 12:24 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by katm
Assuming he is loyal to voldy, id say he's already proved it by takin out dumbledore!!
I understand, but it is a tough call. Since both Dumbledore and Snape are legilimens and Dumbledore asked Snape to look at him (eye contact) with the 'Severus, please' Snape may well have seen enough in Dumbledore's mind to realize that the choice was between one dead man (Dumbledore) and two dead men (Dumbledore and Snape). Talk about hard choices! We don't know that Dumbledore wasn't beyond saving once he was on the tower and if Dumbledore was right that the only wizard that could save him was Snape he was out of luck the moment Draco came on the scene. The unbreakable vow was going to kill Snape before he could help Dumbledore.

I'm not saying it is a given that Snape is loyal to the Order so you may well be right, but Dumbledore's death doesn't actually tell us that much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lexlove1
I of all people always try to find the best in people, but with Snape, I just can't do it. He is not a good person!
Agreed, but there are many men that were considered great contributors to society but were also horrible personally. Horrible doesn't mean Snape isn't working for the right side and JKR might want us to learn that. I find JKR's books to be a great study of human nature - that's why they are so fun to speculate on! We are all a mix of good and bad. Harry is no exception as his constant suspicion of Snape shows - just because someone doesn't like you doesn't make them a criminal. Nasty, yes. A criminal, no. That's why I suspect that Harry will be wrong about Snape in the end just like he has been in every book thus far.

Anyone have an idea how many people have seen Snape's patronus?


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I finally wrote up my web of speculations and posted them here: Book 7: What clues has JKR given us?

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  #157  
Old April 15th, 2006, 1:24 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

I love this thread but I hate all of you saying that Snape will prove his loyalty by putting his life on the line for Harry. I get the impressiont hat Snape has made a life's work of doing so. There have been mutiple times in which Snape has saved Harry's life. Perhaps even sacrificed something/someone that he loved for him.

It wil be Harry's realization of this that allows their relationship to become less hostile. And ultimately for Harry to admit that he was wrong and give his apologies. Though that isn't to say that Snape won't have apologies to make also.

It will be a learning process for them both.

Amelia xxx


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  #158  
Old April 26th, 2006, 10:13 pm
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Well I hope that Snape is good, well as good as Snape can get. There are other colors beside black and white (i mean grey). Snape is not good, but I think he isn't evil either.

Maybe the Astronomy Tower scene is not what it seems. Earlier in the 6th book, Dumbledore said to Harry that he (Harry) had to do what ever Dumbledore is going to say, like: "If I say RUN, than you have to run". Maybe he and Snape have had a conversation at the tower by the means of Legilimency. When Dumbledore said: Severus, please... he (Dumbledore) didn't beg for life, maybe he did beg for Snape to do what he (Snape) had to do.

I think like some others here, that Snape has to do the ultimate thing: die for Harry, before Harry believes that Snape is on his side. And that really is a shame, because Snape did teach Harry so many things, that Harry didn't even see. Like the scene, where Harry runs after Snape and Snape did tell Harry that he have to learn to close his mind to have any success against Snape in that scene (or Voldemort later on in the 7th book).

I really like the theory from aislin about Fawkes. That could be a possability.


  #159  
Old April 27th, 2006, 10:48 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

I can see it now..he will step inbetween Voldemort and Harry and save Harry. He will also die in the process, not immediately ,as he has to have a talk with Harry explaining a few things, but soon after.


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  #160  
Old April 27th, 2006, 11:43 am
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Re: How will Snape prove his loyalty?

Just found this thread so I have only taken a peek at the posts on this last page...

aislin: that's a wonderful observation, about the reason for Fawkes leaving -- the parallel with Dumbledore's words in CoS is just to striking:

CoS, Cornelius Fudge, p.284, UK Paperback"However," said Dumbledore, speaking very slowly and clearly, so that none of them could miss a word, "you will find that I will only truly have left this school when none here are left loyal to me. You will also find that help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it."


I like this very, very much!

zgirnius: I'm also hoping for a "Shrieking Shack" like confrontation between Harry and Severus -- with lots and lots of drama I don't think, though, it has to be contrary to HPSpec's idea... maybe there will be a show down between the two (I'm quite certain of that, actually ;-) where Harry aims to do Sev in and Fawkes somes to the rescue (is there any way to phrase this less ... hmmm ... cliché? ;-) Harry wouldn't believe what he saw, would he? No matter how much reasoning Harry or Hermione or however might come up with to conclude that Severus is actually "good" -- that the events on the Tower were not quite what they seemed (regardless of whether Dumbedore died or "died" ;-) I doubt that it will hit base in Harry. I've posted before on other threads that in the end it comes down to Harry's true and heartfelt convictions. His "logic" alone is deemed to fail him -- we've seen time and again that Harry draws his strength and powers from his intuition and emotions. Those can't be tricked by "logic", not in his case anyway. This does sound eerily similar to the "mindset" needed for casting un Unforgivable Curse, doesn't it? "You need mean them. [...] You need to really want to cause pain -- to enjoy it -- righteous anger won't hurt me for long [...]" Could something similar also apply to Harry's "Power the Dark Lord knows not" a.k.a. Love? To Harry's powers in general? It does seem so, to me...

But anyway, back to how Severus will prove his loyalty -- hmmm


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Last edited by Morgan_Emerald; April 27th, 2006 at 6:00 pm.
 
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