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The Trio - Group Character Analysis



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  #101  
Old July 22nd, 2013, 1:24 pm
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by HedwigOwl View Post
Sorry, but how is Harry getting tricked by Voldemort in OOTP a flaw?
It's not a flaw that Voldemort tricked him, but it was a mistake from Harry's part to want to rush to the Ministry, assuming his vision was real. If it hadn't been for Hermione, he wouldn't even have checked as much as he did. He was also shown to be wrong in not trying to learn Occlumency. Harry does take the blame for Sirius's death partly on himself because it was his foolishness that put Sirius and others in danger. So in OotP, it seemed like Rowling wanted to teach him a lesson. But in DH, she takes it all back and makes Harry right for using the connection between him and Voldemort and even makes this connection valuable to Harry.
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Originally Posted by Pearl_Took View Post
I do think there is some weight to the notion that JKR doesn't always make Harry or Hermione face the consequences of their actions. For example, Hermione using the Oppugno Jinx on Ron's face - why is that kind of violence acceptable from Hermione towards Ron, when if the situation was reversed, it probably wouldn't be? And there is no authorial disapproval (in canon, at any rate) for Hermione scarring Marietta or for Harry casting the Torture Curse on Carrow.

But. Whatever interpretation we put on those examples, they don't make Harry and Hermione 'less whole' or less human than Ron.
Not less human than Ron, but less developed I would say. Teenagers are supposed to be wrong, to throw tantrums and to even treat each other badly sometimes. But the point is that they should learn from these experiences, not be made to believe that they were actually right in the first place. A well developed character is a character who has issues but who deals with these issues. Harry does sometimes and so does Ron. Ron does so more than Harry, IMO. Hermione's character development ends in PS when she learns that friendship is more important than rules. After that, all she does is perfect and okay. It doesn't matter that she scars Marietta for life (where's Hermione's empathy?), it doesn't matter that she holds Rita prisoner, it doesn't matter that she's occasionally violent towards Ron. Why? Because someone else is always to blame. That's not character development, IMO, that's being the author's avatar.

Ron is also right to be angry at Harry in DH, to be frustrated that Harry didn't have a plan and to be worried about his family. Harry does acknowledge that Ron has a point to a certain extent, but in the end it is Ron which has to make amends and apologize. I get that he was wrong to abandon them because none of them would have ever done that to him, but he is villified more than it is necessary. Especially by Hermione, who frankly, acts like a crazy person for two whole chapters.


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  #102  
Old July 22nd, 2013, 1:47 pm
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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That's not character development, IMO, that's being the author's avatar.
Fair enough, but I still maintain that Hermione is a better written character than just being JKR's avatar.

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Ron is also right to be angry at Harry in DH, to be frustrated that Harry didn't have a plan and to be worried about his family.
I wouldn't say Ron was so much 'right' to be angry at Harry as it being an understandable reaction. After all, Harry himself is bearing the immense burden of being Dumbledore's 'puppet'. He is only acting on what Dumbledore has told him about the Horcruxes ... which is, to be blunt, pretty much nothing. I say this not to bash Dumbledore but because this, IMO, is the biggest plot weakness in Deathly Hallows - the fact that Dumbledore imparted so little crucial information to Harry to prepare him for the Horcrux hunt. So Harry is bearing the burden of all this, and Ron - understandably - becomes immensely frustrated. (And, I might add, so does this reader. Not at Ron or Harry but at the plot. )

Interestingly, it doesn't occur to any of the Trio to question the wisdom of the saintly, deceased Dumbledore ... (It's only later on that Harry's faith starts to seriously crumble, as well as it might). Instead, Harry gets the full brunt of Ron's understandable frustration.

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Especially by Hermione, who frankly, acts like a crazy person for two whole chapters.
She does this in which chapters? I like Hermione best in DH. I thought she rocked. And as well as losing Ron, she has to contend with Harry freezing her out emotionally, which is pretty selfish of him - although that is also understandable, given the immense strain he is under.


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  #103  
Old July 22nd, 2013, 5:13 pm
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

Frankly, it would've been for better character development for Harry in DH if both Ron and Hermione left him. He'd be alone, think it all over how it came to this, realize they were right and he deserved it. Then when they come back, he apologizes to them and for the rest of the book is more open about how he doesn't know what he's doing and less "It's all on me".

Because really, it wasn't. The only think, in the end, Harry had to do was...well, die. He didn't have any destiny beyond that.


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  #104  
Old July 23rd, 2013, 6:41 am
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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Frankly, it would've been for better character development for Harry in DH if both Ron and Hermione left him. He'd be alone, think it all over how it came to this, realize they were right and he deserved it. Then when they come back, he apologizes to them and for the rest of the book is more open about how he doesn't know what he's doing and less "It's all on me".
Well, that doesn't make any sense to me from a character standpoint. Each of the trio is intensely loyal to each other. Ron let his anxiety and anger get the better of him and left in DH, but immediately regretted it and kept trying to find a way back. Hermione sacrificed being with Ron to keep her promise to Harry (and Dumbledore) to continue the fight against Voldemort. It was physically painful for Harry to tell Neville that if Ron & Hermione weren't around (i.e. dead), and Neville got the chance, to kill the snake. This, barely able to speak because the thought of losing them hurt so much, even though he was on his way to die himself. They got to this point together since the troll incident.

I see no improvement by having both Ron & Hermione leave Harry so that Harry can go look for them to apologize and say they were right & he was wrong. That's completely out of character for all of them, because Ron regretted leaving as soon as he did, Hermione didn't leave, and Harry wasn't wrong. Hermione loves Ron and she thought he was out of bounds. Sorry, but JKR got it completely right....Hermione stayed, Ron wanted to return as soon as he disapparated, and Harry was angry but right to keep going (and Hermione & Harry were right to discuss the sword and make progress toward the horcrux destruction).


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  #105  
Old July 23rd, 2013, 6:48 am
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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That's completely out of character for all of them, because Ron regretted leaving as soon as he did, Hermione didn't leave, and Harry wasn't wrong.
I don't think Harry was right. I think he was pretty ineffectual during the Hunt. And Hermione...I'm gonna get in trouble for this, but I think she was too much of a martyr for the guy. She should've turned on him at least once or twice, would've helped him grow up faster IMO.

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Hermione loves Ron and she thought he was out of bounds.
I don't think he was. The locket may have augmented some things, but Ron wasn't totally wrong to walk out on Harry. He felt bad about it, but that doesn't mean he was totally wrong.

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(and Hermione & Harry were right to discuss the sword and make progress toward the horcrux destruction).
Which Harry should have considered sooner, if he put ANY thought into his actions. And even then, they got nothing done until Ron got back.

See, I don't see Harry as this big hero type. Nor do I see him as always in the right, nor do I think undying loyalty to him is really all that admirable.


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  #106  
Old July 23rd, 2013, 7:07 am
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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I don't think Harry was right. I think he was pretty ineffectual during the Hunt. And Hermione...I'm gonna get in trouble for this, but I think she was too much of a martyr for the guy. She should've turned on him at least once or twice, would've helped him grow up faster IMO.
No support in the books for this type of behavior on Hermione's part. It would be out of character for her.

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Originally Posted by ShadowSonic
I don't think he was. The locket may have augmented some things, but Ron wasn't totally wrong to walk out on Harry. He felt bad about it, but that doesn't mean he was totally wrong.
Ron thought he (Ron) was wrong, and apologized. Book canon.

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Originally Posted by ShadowSonic
Which Harry should have considered sooner, if he put ANY thought into his actions. And even then, they got nothing done until Ron got back.
They were all doing the best they could. If Hermione didn't think of it sooner (being better read than either of the guys), what are the grounds for thinking Harry "should have considered it sooner"? He considered it when he made the connection, as did Hermione.

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Originally Posted by ShadowSonic
See, I don't see Harry as this big hero type. Nor do I see him as always in the right, nor do I think undying loyalty to him is really all that admirable.
I have a question for you, if you don't mind considering it -- why did you continue reading the series if you were/are so unhappy with the characters, storyline, writing style, etc.? You seem to think the entire book series should be re-written.


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  #107  
Old July 23rd, 2013, 9:15 am
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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No support in the books for this type of behavior on Hermione's part. It would be out of character for her.
You mean being a martyr, or not helping Harry with something for once?

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Ron thought he (Ron) was wrong, and apologized. Book canon.
Thinking you're wrong and being wrong are two different things.

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If Hermione didn't think of it sooner (being better read than either of the guys), what are the grounds for thinking Harry "should have considered it sooner"?
I'm saying they should've all thought about what exactly they were going to do with the horcruxs once they got any before they did anything.

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I have a question for you
None of this occurred to me until long after I was done reading the series, my love for the series keeps me around, and plenty of times I think I'm wrong for thinking like this and accept that my views don't match up with how the series was, but I can't stop thinking that some things could've been done differently.


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  #108  
Old July 24th, 2013, 6:44 am
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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You mean being a martyr, or not helping Harry with something for once?
No, I mean that Hermione was determined to keep her promise, especially on something as important as working to defeat Voldemort. She reminds Ron during that dialogue that they had both promised to help Harry with the horcrux hunt.
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Originally Posted by DH, page 309, US hardcover edition
"Are you staying, or what?"

"I..." She looked anguished. "Yes -- yes, I staying. Ron, we said we'd go with Harry, we said we'd help --"
That's Hermione keeping her word, no matter the personal cost.


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  #109  
Old July 24th, 2013, 7:04 am
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

And if she showed some fallibility, and turned on/abandoned Harry at least once in the series (no, the Firebolt thing doesn't count) I think it would've given her some much needed humanity and dimensions. Otherwise...she can come off as a rather flat character.

Heck, even Harry showed he was willing to break his word to get what he wanted like with Griphook and the Sword.



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  #110  
Old July 24th, 2013, 3:03 pm
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

Harry, as we see at the end of HBP, does not plan on Ron and Hermione going with him to hunt horcruxes. But, they insist on accompanying him:

DH, The White Tomb, (Bold & Underline, mine)“We’ll be there, Harry,” said Ron.

“What?”

“At your aunt and uncle’s house,” said Ron. “And then we’ll go with you wherever you’re going.”

“No —” said Harry quickly; he had not counted on this, he had meant them to understand that he was undertaking this most dangerous journey alone.
“You said to us once before,” said Hermione quietly, “that there was time to turn back if we wanted to. We’ve had time, haven’t we?”

“We’re with you whatever happens,” said Ron.


None, including Harry, have any idea what they're undertaking. Harry gets a taste of how little he knows while talking with Ron's aunt during the wedding. But, as Shacklebolt's patronus shows up and announces the fall of the Ministry, there is no time to share this with Ron and Hermione before they have to go into hiding.

Hermione erased her parents' memories and sent them to Australia to keep them safe. That was a huge sacrifice on her part. Ron didn't have that option, as his parents were members of what was left of the Order. He is, naturally, worried about them and his siblings, especially Ginny, who has to return to Hogwarts.

Ron has also never been away from his family, other than school, for long periods of time, and, from what we see, never without some kind of communication with them. I don't think that it's difficult to understand his reaction as the search for the horcurxes stretches on and it becomes evident how little information Dumbledore actually gave Harry. And, because of his own insecurities, when Ron wore the horcrux locket, it had a much more pronounced affect on him and his moods than it did on the other two.

As an only child, Hermione would not have the same ideas of having to "measure up" to anyone that Ron seemed to have, and, the older she got, the more self-assured she seemed to become, IMO, based on her belief that if she could find the information in a book then she could make use of it. I really don't think that, because she is intelligent and uses that intelligence, because she is not as insecure as Ron, or because she has no family ties pulling her (as Ron does), and finds it easier to stay with Harry, that she is a "flat" character.

I see "The Trio" as three parts of a whole. While they can get along without the others, they don't seem to accomplish much during those times. Each has strengths that they bring to the group which makes it stronger. When one breaks away, the group is lacking.

As for how upset Hermione was all the time Ron was gone: I think, when he returned, her anger at him was because she felt he'd deserted her as well as Harry, and she was extremely hurt that he would leave her like that. She loved him, as we know, and I think she was hurt when she "perceived" that he didn't love her as much and would leave. Coming from such different backgrounds, I don't think it's hard to see how neither could fully understand the other's feelings.


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  #111  
Old July 24th, 2013, 3:52 pm
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by MinervasCat View Post
Harry, as we see at the end of HBP, does not plan on Ron and Hermione going with him to hunt horcruxes. But, they insist on accompanying him:

DH, The White Tomb, (Bold & Underline, mine)“We’ll be there, Harry,” said Ron.

“What?”

“At your aunt and uncle’s house,” said Ron. “And then we’ll go with you wherever you’re going.”

“No —” said Harry quickly; he had not counted on this, he had meant them to understand that he was undertaking this most dangerous journey alone.
“You said to us once before,” said Hermione quietly, “that there was time to turn back if we wanted to. We’ve had time, haven’t we?”

“We’re with you whatever happens,” said Ron.


None, including Harry, have any idea what they're undertaking. Harry gets a taste of how little he knows while talking with Ron's aunt during the wedding. But, as Shacklebolt's patronus shows up and announces the fall of the Ministry, there is no time to share this with Ron and Hermione before they have to go into hiding.

Hermione erased her parents' memories and sent them to Australia to keep them safe. That was a huge sacrifice on her part. Ron didn't have that option, as his parents were members of what was left of the Order. He is, naturally, worried about them and his siblings, especially Ginny, who has to return to Hogwarts.

Ron has also never been away from his family, other than school, for long periods of time, and, from what we see, never without some kind of communication with them. I don't think that it's difficult to understand his reaction as the search for the horcurxes stretches on and it becomes evident how little information Dumbledore actually gave Harry. And, because of his own insecurities, when Ron wore the horcrux locket, it had a much more pronounced affect on him and his moods than it did on the other two.

As an only child, Hermione would not have the same ideas of having to "measure up" to anyone that Ron seemed to have, and, the older she got, the more self-assured she seemed to become, IMO, based on her belief that if she could find the information in a book then she could make use of it. I really don't think that, because she is intelligent and uses that intelligence, because she is not as insecure as Ron, or because she has no family ties pulling her (as Ron does), and finds it easier to stay with Harry, that she is a "flat" character.

I see "The Trio" as three parts of a whole. While they can get along without the others, they don't seem to accomplish much during those times. Each has strengths that they bring to the group which makes it stronger. When one breaks away, the group is lacking.

As for how upset Hermione was all the time Ron was gone: I think, when he returned, her anger at him was because she felt he'd deserted her as well as Harry, and she was extremely hurt that he would leave her like that. She loved him, as we know, and I think she was hurt when she "perceived" that he didn't love her as much and would leave. Coming from such different backgrounds, I don't think it's hard to see how neither could fully understand the other's feelings.
Good post. Agree 100%.

JKR said Ron was the glue and we saw what happened in DH when the 'glue' was missing.


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  #112  
Old July 24th, 2013, 6:12 pm
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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But, as Shacklebolt's patronus shows up and announces the fall of the Ministry, there is no time to share this with Ron and Hermione before they have to go into hiding.
They had time to think things over once they were hiding out at Grimmauld Place.

Quote:
And, because of his own insecurities, when Ron wore the horcrux locket, it had a much more pronounced affect on him and his moods than it did on the other two.
It was more because the plot wouldn't work if he stuck around, so Rowling needed to get rid of him for awhile. So she (typically) used a more insulting manner to get rid of him. I still think Harry deserved to be abandoned by that point.

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I really don't think that, because she is intelligent and uses that intelligence, because she is not as insecure as Ron, or because she has no family ties pulling her (as Ron does), and finds it easier to stay with Harry, that she is a "flat" character.
It's not just those lack of things that make her a flat character (IMO), but to me they are a part of it. Lack of conflict, not much growth after the first book, rarely if ever confronting her character flaws, just being handed things with little to no effort, etc. Compare her to Ron and she REALLY gets off with the Kids' gloves treatment.

You can say that it's because her background is different (no siblings, muggleborn, she's a girl, etc) but that adds to it and makes it seem like she was designed to be less complex and developed right from the start.



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  #113  
Old July 25th, 2013, 2:46 am
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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They had time to think things over once they were hiding out at Grimmauld Place.
I think Harry was still reeling from all he'd heard from Aunt Muriel. I don't think he'd had time to process it enough, and was probably embarrassed to admit how little he knew about Dumbledore, the man he'd put so much trust in. Ron and Hermione were trusting him. If he told them what he'd heard, without knowing how true it was, it might have shaken that trust. I think, at that time, Harry still thought he had more information than he did. I think he eventually got as frustrated as Ron and Hermione. He just didn't want to show it because he was trying to keep up a brave front for them and also didn't want to think badly of Dumbledore.



Quote:
It was more because the plot wouldn't work if he stuck around, so Rowling needed to get rid of him for awhile. So she (typically) used a more insulting manner to get rid of him. I still think Harry deserved to be abandoned by that point.
It seems your dissatisfaction is as much with JKR's style of writing as it is with the characters themselves. Harry had not asked the other two to come along with him. He had tried to discourage them. But, they insisted. I, personally, don't think he deserved to be abandoned. I can understand why Ron left: the combination of his worrying about his family and the affects the horcrux locket were having on him really took a toll. But, I still don't think Harry deserved to be abandoned the way he was.

But, Ron came back in roaring style, saving Harry's life and destroying the horcrux, in spite of it trying to use every insecurity he had to weaken him. He held out and came through like a champ.


Quote:
It's not just those lack of things that make her a flat character (IMO), but to me they are a part of it. Lack of conflict, not much growth after the first book, rarely if ever confronting her character flaws, just being handed things with little to no effort, etc. Compare her to Ron and she REALLY gets off with the Kids' gloves treatment.
I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. I, personally, don't see Hermione being treated with kid gloves. To me, she holds up her own side of the trio and, without her, IMO, Harry would not have been successful in vanquishing LV. But, I can say the same for Ron. He held up his side, once he got some personal issues out of the way, and, IMO, was as helpful to Harry as Hermione. They just did their jobs in different ways.

Quote:
You can say that it's because her background is different (no siblings, muggleborn, she's a girl, etc) but that adds to it and makes it seem like she was designed to be less complex and developed right from the start.
Again, this is your opinion, and I respect it. You can perceive the characters as you do, and I can perceive them as I do. It doesn't make either of us right or wrong. We just have different opinions about how fleshed-out they are.


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  #114  
Old July 25th, 2013, 6:56 am
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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It's not just those lack of things that make her a flat character (IMO), but to me they are a part of it. Lack of conflict, not much growth after the first book, rarely if ever confronting her character flaws, just being handed things with little to no effort, etc. Compare her to Ron and she REALLY gets off with the Kids' gloves treatment.
Hermione's character is more developed because that was her experience before getting to Hogwarts. The only insecurity Hermione seems to have is the complete surprise that she had magical blood, but is a "muggleborn", and has the opportunity to attend Hogwarts and learn to use her magical abiities properly though surrounded by mostly magical families. But because she was an only child, she had her parents' undivided attention and support. She was more balanced and grounded because of that. Compared to Harry & Ron, she had a "head start" on development. So I disagree with your assessment that she was a "flat" character or needed more development. She's more mature and assured in her intelligence & ability to learn with good effort....she doesn't have it "easier", she simply was ahead of Ron & Harry. Ron grew up in a crowded home and felt pressure (albeit self-imposed) to live up to his brothers' accomplishments. Harry's parents died when he was a toddler and he grew up with in a dysfunctional and somewhat abusive (to Harry) home, and there's a psychopathic wizard out to kill him (again). So of course they'd have more issues to deal with than Hermione; but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with Hermione's character development as she's written.


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  #115  
Old July 25th, 2013, 7:19 am
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

But that just means that most of her character development was entirely off-page and happened before the series began.


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  #116  
Old July 25th, 2013, 12:25 pm
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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So of course they'd have more issues to deal with than Hermione; but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with Hermione's character development as she's written.
I think we were shown however that Hermione did have issues she could have dealt with. Just because you're an only child doesn't mean you don't have insecurities and issues. The problem is, the author chose to pay less attention to Hermione's development than to Ron and Harry's. Hermione is the only member of the Trio who doesn't get to look into the Mirror of Erised, the only member of the Trio who doesn't get to destroy a Horcrux on page, the only member of the Trio who doesn't get to face the Boggart. And these are just a few examples of opportunities we could have been given to glimpse her inner life and her deepest desires and fears.

She also mentions that she had to Obliviate her parents which I'm sure was very difficult to do and tragic. Yet that doesn't get nearly as much page time as Ron's concern for his family and Harry's longing for his parents. She's clearly The Brain of the Trio, I just wished she was more than that.


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Old July 25th, 2013, 1:19 pm
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

I'm not sure numerous details of a character's past have to be included for them to be "filled out." I think we are shown Hermione felt insecure coming into the wizarding world and overcompensated for it by gorging on every bit of information she could before getting to Hogwarts. IMO, her confident air was the mask she hid behind so that she wouldn't be challenged on something she might not know, and she used it to put people off so they wouldn't get too close and find out how vulnerable she actually felt.

I don't think JKR had to tell us she was insecure as a "muggleborn," but showed us by having Hermione be so compulsive about being versed on everything magical that the could learn. She was over-the-top about her grades, which, IMO, is and indication that she felt she had to work ten times as hard and make perfect grades to justify her having magical powers. But, that's just my perception.

She is bossy, which is a character flaw that she never seems to overcome, or even recognize. But, that bossiness is part of what helps keep the Trio together at times. If she hadn't been bossy and overly concerned at times, I'm not sure Harry or Ron would have survived. The Firebolt incident could have been a disaster. No one knew where the broom came from. It could have been cursed (look how easily Katie Bell was cursed by just touching that necklace). Yet, Ron encouraged Harry to risk his life because the idea of riding a Firebolt was just so exciting it overcame any concerns for safety. It ended up Hermione was wrong, in this instance. But, it also showed that she cared enough for Harry to risk losing his friendship to keep him safe.

I'm sorry. Maybe I'm just not looking at her right, but, I see Hermione as a very interesting, intelligent, brave, and loyal person. She has her flaws, but not as many as the boys, but she has many strengths. Her character is written differently than Harry and Ron, but, I really didn't need to see great details about her background, etc., to feel that she's a realistic character. There are times I really like her and times I get totally frustrated with her, just like the boys do. But, over all I like the character and how she is written.


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  #118  
Old July 25th, 2013, 6:02 pm
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by MinervasCat View Post
I'm not sure numerous details of a character's past have to be included for them to be "filled out." I think we are shown Hermione felt insecure coming into the wizarding world and overcompensated for it by gorging on every bit of information she could before getting to Hogwarts.
And the only time this is even hinted at is in the first book. After that, nothing.

Quote:
The Firebolt incident could have been a disaster. No one knew where the broom came from. It could have been cursed (look how easily Katie Bell was cursed by just touching that necklace). Yet, Ron encouraged Harry to risk his life because the idea of riding a Firebolt was just so exciting it overcame any concerns for safety. It ended up Hermione was wrong, in this instance. But, it also showed that she cared enough for Harry to risk losing his friendship to keep him safe.
This is exactly what I was getting at, the ONE time any conflict is created by her own personality clashes, it's swept under the rug and nothing else similar comes of it later in the series. If there had been repeated clashes between her and Harry, there'd be something.


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Old July 25th, 2013, 9:08 pm
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by MinervasCat View Post
I don't think JKR had to tell us she was insecure as a "muggleborn," but showed us by having Hermione be so compulsive about being versed on everything magical that the could learn. She was over-the-top about her grades, which, IMO, is and indication that she felt she had to work ten times as hard and make perfect grades to justify her having magical powers. But, that's just my perception.
I don't think this is the case. Hermione being over the top with her grades was I think very normal of her. She doesn't even know what a 'mudblood' is for instance until Draco actually uses the word. She had a fear of failure imo, fear of not being right which is what lead to her studying so much. She might even have been insecure about her looks but that's pretty much every girl I would have thought.

Quote:
She is bossy, which is a character flaw that she never seems to overcome, or even recognize. But, that bossiness is part of what helps keep the Trio together at times. If she hadn't been bossy and overly concerned at times, I'm not sure Harry or Ron would have survived. The Firebolt incident could have been a disaster. No one knew where the broom came from. It could have been cursed (look how easily Katie Bell was cursed by just touching that necklace). Yet, Ron encouraged Harry to risk his life because the idea of riding a Firebolt was just so exciting it overcame any concerns for safety. It ended up Hermione was wrong, in this instance. But, it also showed that she cared enough for Harry to risk losing his friendship to keep him safe.
I don't really agree with you here. Hermione's bossiness never keeps the trio together. A lot of the time it seems to annoy them especially Harry to the point he outright ignores her or lies to her. What she does do imo is keep them in check. Ron and Harry are both headstrong, instinctive and true Gryffindors at heart. They rush into things leaving their brain aside and Hermione counteracts this nicely and balances things up.

Also, Ron and Harry not caring about who sent the broom is as in character to them as being cautious is to Hermione. The idea that Sirius could have sent the broom while on the run from the entire ministry and the dementors is very far-fetched. Besides Hermione never really got into Quidditch and could never understand the passion that that boys had.

Quote:
I'm sorry. Maybe I'm just not looking at her right, but, I see Hermione as a very interesting, intelligent, brave, and loyal person. She has her flaws, but not as many as the boys, but she has many strengths. Her character is written differently than Harry and Ron, but, I really didn't need to see great details about her background, etc., to feel that she's a realistic character. There are times I really like her and times I get totally frustrated with her, just like the boys do. But, over all I like the character and how she is written.
Hermione as a character is not as well fleshed out as Ron and Harry imo. Compare the number of times we see Ron and Harry acting as normal boys doing normal stuff with Hermione and you will see a great difference. Even the times she spends with both Harry and Ron she is more often than not has something to with Harry's problems and it's just a case a three friends behaving normally.

The biggest reason for this is that the entire story is from Harry's PoV and that really limits her character development on page. We know nothing about her parents, nothing about her relationship with her parents, barely anything about how she copes with being away from them for so long and nothing about how much she has told them or how her spending so much time with the Weasleys has affected them. We don't see her in her vulnerable moments (modifying her parents memory or her recovery at Shell Cottage). We don't see her in her normal moments (The times she spends at the Weaseys in the holidays or the times she spends without being encumbered by Harry's issues). We don't know anything about Hermione before she joined Hogwarts.

This does not make her a unrealistic or flat character but let's say we could have done with a lot more information about her. We have more information about Dumbledore's past than Hermione's when you look at things and that's strange when you think about it.


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Old July 25th, 2013, 10:57 pm
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Re: The Trio - Group Character Analysis

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Originally Posted by ShadowSonic View Post
And the only time this is even hinted at is in the first book. After that, nothing.

This is exactly what I was getting at, the ONE time any conflict is created by her own personality clashes, it's swept under the rug and nothing else similar comes of it later in the series. If there had been repeated clashes between her and Harry, there'd be something.
Both of these statements seem aimed more at JKR's writing style of developing the Hermione character "off page," rather than anything lacking in Hermione, herself.

Also, @ Serena, we do get to see Hermione face her Boggart. It's Professor McGonagall, and she tells Hermione that's she's failed all of her subjects.

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I don't think this is the case. Hermione being over the top with her grades was I think very normal of her. She doesn't even know what a 'mudblood' is for instance until Draco actually uses the word. She had a fear of failure imo, fear of not being right which is what lead to her studying so much. She might even have been insecure about her looks but that's pretty much every girl I would have thought.
I saw her as trying to make up for not having been raised in a wizarding family, where she felt she would have learned all of the things in the books from her parents, by reading just about everything she could and learning everything she could so she wouldn't look totally clueless when she arrived at Hogwarts. Possibly the word "mudblood" was so unacceptable, and echoed back to the first Voldemort Wars, that it was not in any of the books that she read. I think, as any teenage girl, she was insecure about her looks or she wouldn't have mentioned her teeth to her parents and tried to get them to let her reduce them magically. She took advantage of the hex Draco put on her, though, and let Madam Pomphrey reduce them to a more attractive size.

Quote:
I don't really agree with you here. Hermione's bossiness never keeps the trio together. A lot of the time it seems to annoy them especially Harry to the point he outright ignores her or lies to her. What she does do imo is keep them in check. Ron and Harry are both headstrong, instinctive and true Gryffindors at heart. They rush into things leaving their brain aside and Hermione counteracts this nicely and balances things up.
Instead of "together," I probably should have said "in tact." By helping to keep the boys in check, since they were a pretty rambunctious pair, IMO, she kept one or both of them from getting killed. Her "balancing" is what I mean when I say that each of the three brought positive things to the Trio that helped to make up for the weaknesses of others. Harry and Ron also got her into rule breaking, where she'd probably never have broken a rule in her life until she met them. But, she helped keep them from going overboard. They helped keep her from being too cautious.

Quote:
Also, Ron and Harry not caring about who sent the broom is as in character to them as being cautious is to Hermione. The idea that Sirius could have sent the broom while on the run from the entire ministry and the dementors is very far-fetched. Besides Hermione never really got into Quidditch and could never understand the passion that that boys had.
Sirius was rumored to have been Voldemort's "second in command," which was why he was looking to kill Harry. I don't think it was a stretch to think a wizard who could escape from Azkaban would have any problem acquiring a broom, cursing it, and sending it to Harry. Fake Moody turned the Tri-Wizard Cup into a portkey, after all. I'm currently re-reading PoA, and everyone is truly terrified of Sirius Black because of his reputation. So, Hermione's concern about the broom, IMO, was justified. And, in the end, it actually had come from Sirius. So, he was able to procure it and send it to Harry.

I'm not sure Harry's and Ron's enthusiasm for the broom was limited to just it's being used for Quidditch. Ron wanted to ride it and he didn't play for the school at that time. I think it was about the same thing as the flying car. It was something exciting and adventurous, and they wanted to get in on that.

Quote:
Hermione as a character is not as well fleshed out as Ron and Harry imo. Compare the number of times we see Ron and Harry acting as normal boys doing normal stuff with Hermione and you will see a great difference. Even the times she spends with both Harry and Ron she is more often than not has something to with Harry's problems and it's just a case a three friends behaving normally.
Ron and Harry are together for nearly half of the first book before they become actual friends with Hermione -- and she spends about 1/2 of CoS either recovering from Polyjuice Potion or petrified. So, in just the first two books we see a lot of their characters' backgrounds without seeing any of her's. Also, Harry and Ron are roommates, which means we see them talking a lot more together when Hermione isn't around. It isn't until she starts spending time at the Weasley's that we get to see her in less formal surroundings and see her relax a bit, laughing with Ginny and Mrs. Weasley, and relaxing more with Harry and Ron.

As for being involved more in Harry's problems: Harry's problems were the basis for the series and the whole Trio's involvement with them is a main focus. His problems are, almost nearly, life and death, while Ron's are mostly hurt feelings. Hermione shows great concern for Ron when he is sacrificing himself during the giant chess match, when he is bitten by Sirius/Padfoot, when he's trying out for Quidditch and feeling he can't make it, when he's poisoned, etc. So, when Ron is in true danger, she most definitely reacts to that positively.

Quote:
The biggest reason for this is that the entire story is from Harry's PoV and that really limits her character development on page. We know nothing about her parents, nothing about her relationship with her parents, barely anything about how she copes with being away from them for so long and nothing about how much she has told them or how her spending so much time with the Weasleys has affected them. We don't see her in her vulnerable moments (modifying her parents memory or her recovery at Shell Cottage). We don't see her in her normal moments (The times she spends at the Weaseys in the holidays or the times she spends without being encumbered by Harry's issues). We don't know anything about Hermione before she joined Hogwarts.
We do read a bit about her traveling with her parents...one of the reasons she apparates to the Forest of Dean when they leave Godric's Hollow. There evidently wasn't much to tell about her childhood. We do see her start to fall apart a bit in PoA, as she is taking almost every subject offered that year. The amount of studying, and also trying to help Hagrid with his defense of Buckbeak, certainly take their toll on her. That's when she flips out and punches Draco in the nose. One of the great moments in the series, IMO. It's possible JKR could have cut some things in the books and used that space to concentrate on giving us more background on Hermione. But, since she kind of seems to be a "what you see is what you get" character, maybe she didn't feel that was necessary.

Quote:
This does not make her a unrealistic or flat character but let's say we could have done with a lot more information about her. We have more information about Dumbledore's past than Hermione's when you look at things and that's strange when you think about it.
I'm not sure that we needed to see much more information on her. She was what she was. Dumbledore, on the other hand, was 150+ years old and considered the most powerful wizard of his time. Learning more about his past, IMO, was necessary to show how he earned that reputation and how he was capable of the things he was. His character was a lot more complex than even Harry's, so, I think it was necessary for us to see what we are shown of his background.


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I held you in my arms, although I knew that death
Had already taken you. I held you close, hoping for a faint heartbeat or breath
To prove me wrong.
But, you were still, and could not hear or see
My grief, my tears, my heartbreak knowing that the rest of my life would be
Spent without you.
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