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  #1  
Old July 22nd, 2007, 11:24 am
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The Elder Wand

Was I the only one slightly confused when it came to Harry's explanation of who the Elder Wand really belonged to in the final battle?

Quote:
" ... the Elder Wand recognised a new master before Dumbledore died, someone who never even had laid a hand on it. The new master removed the wand from Dumbledore against his will, never realising exactly what he had done, or that the world's most dangerous wand had given him its allegiance ..."
Right, so the wand belongs to Draco Malfoy. OK then. But Draco never received the wand, it stayed with Dumbledore.

Then this:

Quote:
"Does the wand in your hand know its last master was disarmed? Because if it does ... I [Harry] am the true master of the Elder Wand."
What on earth? Which "last master" is he referring to? Dumbledore? Draco? Snape? To be fair I haven't read HBP since last year, so my memory isn't that fresh, but I'm a bit confused. Anyone?

Oh and when Harry said he was going to put the Elder Wand back "where it came from" where is that, exactly? In Dumbledore's Tomb? Or ... ?


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  #2  
Old July 22nd, 2007, 12:08 pm
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Re: The Elder Wand

I was totally confused as well by that. I was following the whole explanation up as far as the introduction of Draco and then I was lost.

I'm not sure where Harry meant when he said "back where it came from" ~ I guess Dumbledore's Tomb is as good a guess as any. What about the tomb in Godric's Hollow though?


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  #3  
Old July 22nd, 2007, 11:31 pm
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Re: The Elder Wand

In my mind I understand and accept how the wand came to recognize Draco as its master and not Snape, but I don't know if I can express the idea very well.

It all stems though from Draco disarming Dumbledore against his will in HBP. Once Draco showed some superiority and "defeated" Dumbledore by taking his wand, the wand chose Draco as its new master. It didn't matter that Draco fled shortly after and never had the wand in his posession.

The wands "last master" that Harry disarmed /defeated was Draco. Since Harry took Draco's wand against Draco's will the wand went on to chose Harry as its new rightful master. Snape was never the master of the wand because he didn't defeat Dumbledore against his will...Dumbledore asked him to kill him.


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  #4  
Old July 22nd, 2007, 11:39 pm
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Re: The Elder Wand

I deduced the same as Madmagic. What I don't understand is that Ollivander said each wand is unique and chooses the individual wizard. I don't see why because Draco's original wand chose Harry as its new master because he'd 'defeated' him, the Elder wand should do the same. I thought each wand was unique?


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  #5  
Old July 23rd, 2007, 12:51 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMagic View Post
The wands "last master" that Harry disarmed /defeated was Draco. Since Harry took Draco's wand against Draco's will the wand went on to chose Harry as its new rightful master.
So, even though Harry disarmed Draco and took the HAWTHORNE wand at Malfoy Manor, the Elder Wand switched loyalties to him too?

OK then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Virtuousdream View Post
I thought each wand was unique?
I guess JKR had to leave us something to discuss.


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  #6  
Old July 23rd, 2007, 11:34 pm
GoldenDay  Female.gif GoldenDay is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

I thought this was a bit confusing as well, but in the end I think I understood. Grindelwald stole the wand from Gregorovitch, so he was the new master of the Elder Wand. DD defeated GW, so he became the new master of the EW, and when Draco disarmed DD he became the new master. It didn't matter that Draco never touched the wand or used it, the wand had still transferred its allegiance to Draco. The EW was then buried with DD. However, when Draco was disarmed by Harry, both Draco's Hawthorn wand and the EW transferred their allegiance to Harry.

However, the part that bothers me now is that since Harry is the Elder Wand's master now, if he's every disarmed in the future (and it doesn't have to be with the EW, any wand!), the EW will recognize that person as its new master, right? Seems a rather simple way to gain control of such a powerful wand.


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  #7  
Old July 23rd, 2007, 11:42 pm
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenDay View Post
However, the part that bothers me now is that since Harry is the Elder Wand's master now, if he's every disarmed in the future (and it doesn't have to be with the EW, any wand!), the EW will recognize that person as its new master, right? Seems a rather simple way to gain control of such a powerful wand.
Yes, this is bothering me too. Harry seems to think that if he dies a natural death and doesn't get into any big fights, then the EW will stop having a true master. But how plausible is it that no-one ever disarms him again? Would it count if one of his friends or children did it for a joke? Or if he ended up teaching or demonstrating at a duelling club?

Also, how did the EW know that Harry had disarmed Draco? Does it have some kind of psychic link with the true master, even if it's never touched him?


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  #8  
Old July 23rd, 2007, 11:49 pm
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotsiepots View Post
Was I the only one slightly confused when it came to Harry's explanation of who the Elder Wand really belonged to in the final battle?
I was confused at first, but i think i understand it now.



Quote:
Right, so the wand belongs to Draco Malfoy. OK then. But Draco never received the wand, it stayed with Dumbledore.

Then this:

What on earth? Which "last master" is he referring to? Dumbledore? Draco? Snape? To be fair I haven't read HBP since last year, so my memory isn't that fresh, but I'm a bit confused. Anyone?

Oh and when Harry said he was going to put the Elder Wand back "where it came from" where is that, exactly? In Dumbledore's Tomb? Or ... ?
Basically i think if you defeat the Wizard or Witch that possesses the Elder wand in a duel or fight, then the Elder wand passes onto you. Draco disarmed Dumbledore, thus he became the new master of the Elder Wand, however he did not pick it up nor did he know anything about it. I think the Elder wand is so closey tied to it's current owner, that when that owner is defeated, Elder wand or not, it passess onto it's next master.
So by Harry defeating Draco, he took possession of the Elder Wand or more rightly the wand chose Harry as it's new master. Then Voldemort cracked open Dumbledore's tomb and took the Elder wand. He mistakenly believed that ownership could only pass through murder. Which lead to him killing Snape. The last Master of the Wand was Harry prior to Voldemort stealing the Elder wand.
I believe Harry was talking about putting the wand back into Dumbledore's tomb.
Only a select few people would know the location of the Elder wand. So when Harry dies eventually he will truely be it's last master and thus it's power is broken.

I'm still trying to get my head wrapped around it. Some of Rowling's writing got a bit clunky near the end. I think that added to the confusion i had at first.


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  #9  
Old July 24th, 2007, 12:08 am
PrimalOpus  Undisclosed.gif PrimalOpus is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

I thought it went like this:

DD wins EW from Grindelwald.
Draco disarms DD, gains power of EW
Harry defeats Draco at Malfoy Manor, gains power of EW (I think the so-called hawthorne wand was the EW, not a different wand but just called by the type of wood it is so as not to spoil the revelation at the end)

Was the wand DD was buried with not the EW after all? Draco didn't take DD's wand as he fled the scene of the showdown in HBP? I've got to reread, I thought Draco had taken DD's wand and was using it at Malfoy Manor and that's how Harry got it. No?


  #10  
Old July 24th, 2007, 12:10 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimalOpus View Post

Was the wand DD was buried with not the EW after all? Draco didn't take DD's wand as he fled the scene of the showdown in HBP? I've got to reread, I thought Draco had taken DD's wand and was using it at Malfoy Manor and that's how Harry got it. No?
Dumbledore was buried with the Elder Wand. Draco never laid hands on it, yet the wand recognized him as its master anyway.
Harry was the master of the wand from when he disarmed Draco but didn't get it into his possession when it left Voldemort and came to Harry in the final battle, when he caught it with his mad quidditch skills.


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  #11  
Old July 24th, 2007, 12:27 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiphany View Post
Yes, this is bothering me too. Harry seems to think that if he dies a natural death and doesn't get into any big fights, then the EW will stop having a true master. But how plausible is it that no-one ever disarms him again? Would it count if one of his friends or children did it for a joke? Or if he ended up teaching or demonstrating at a duelling club?

Also, how did the EW know that Harry had disarmed Draco? Does it have some kind of psychic link with the true master, even if it's never touched him?
I think it could be very plausible that no one would ever disarm Harry again. Who in their right mind would go up against the man who took out LV? I'm not quite sure how that would work with the "children did it for a joke" or the "teaching" aspect. I would assume that the Elder Wand knows if the master is in a deathly duel or not.


  #12  
Old July 24th, 2007, 12:31 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

It is explained in the book by Olivander I think that to you do not need to kill to win a wand. Altough it is a way. This was Voldemort mistaque and arrogance, as I've sure the death eater told him exactly what happened in the tower (they arrive after Draco has disarmed Dumbledore).

Voldemort mistaque was to think the only mean to deat someone was by Killing. In fact, even Dumbledore tough that the true master of the wand was to be Snape, but Harry remembered what Olivander said and understud it was not.


  #13  
Old July 24th, 2007, 12:32 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimalOpus View Post
I thought it went like this:

DD wins EW from Grindelwald.
Draco disarms DD, gains power of EW
Harry defeats Draco at Malfoy Manor, gains power of EW (I think the so-called hawthorne wand was the EW, not a different wand but just called by the type of wood it is so as not to spoil the revelation at the end)
Fine, except that Elder is a type of wood as well as a word meaning "more senior".

Quote:
Was the wand DD was buried with not the EW after all? Draco didn't take DD's wand as he fled the scene of the showdown in HBP? I've got to reread, I thought Draco had taken DD's wand and was using it at Malfoy Manor and that's how Harry got it. No?

From the book, yes DD was buried with the EW. The wand flew out of the window.

From what I understood, if the wand knows Draco (its previous master) was defeated, then it recognises Harry as master. If not, it doesn't really matter.

Wands are magical, and I guess have a magical connection to their owner - hence when the owner is defeated, they switch allegiance to the proven stronger owner. It doesn't matter whether the owner is nearby or not.


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  #14  
Old July 24th, 2007, 12:44 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4halls View Post
I think it could be very plausible that no one would ever disarm Harry again. Who in their right mind would go up against the man who took out LV? I'm not quite sure how that would work with the "children did it for a joke" or the "teaching" aspect. I would assume that the Elder Wand knows if the master is in a deathly duel or not.
I don't know, though...when GW took it from Gregorovitch it wasn't a deathly duel...he pretty much just stole it! What if someone just stole Harry's wand (thus "conquering" it)...I suppose the EW would transfer its allegiance as well? Someone could just sneak up on Harry, shout Expelliarmous! and Accio Wand! and then disapparate.

I hope Harry never becomes an Auror! It would be all too easy to be disarmed, and the chances of dying a natural death would decrease considerably.

So, if someone, anytime in the future, disarms Harry (or steals his wand?), they'd have control of the EW. Seems pretty easy to me! Although one could argue that no one but the trio really knows that Harry put the EW back in DD's grave, that wouldn't be too hard to guess. And a lot of people know about the Elder Wand's existence now, since Harry announced it to all of Hogwarts during the final duel.


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Old July 24th, 2007, 1:19 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenDay View Post
I don't know, though...when GW took it from Gregorovitch it wasn't a deathly duel...he pretty much just stole it! What if someone just stole Harry's wand (thus "conquering" it)...I suppose the EW would transfer its allegiance as well? Someone could just sneak up on Harry, shout Expelliarmous! and Accio Wand! and then disapparate.
Good point...this EW business is becoming more confusing by the minute. I really hope that just stealing it doesn't tranfer the power. It wouldn't make any sense to me because Voldemort just stole it from DD's grave or from Draco apparently. The battle between GW and Gregorovitch must have been glossed over or something, no?


  #16  
Old July 24th, 2007, 1:33 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMagic View Post
In my mind I understand and accept how the wand came to recognize Draco as its master and not Snape, but I don't know if I can express the idea very well.

It all stems though from Draco disarming Dumbledore against his will in HBP. Once Draco showed some superiority and "defeated" Dumbledore by taking his wand, the wand chose Draco as its new master. It didn't matter that Draco fled shortly after and never had the wand in his posession.

The wands "last master" that Harry disarmed /defeated was Draco. Since Harry took Draco's wand against Draco's will the wand went on to chose Harry as its new rightful master. Snape was never the master of the wand because he didn't defeat Dumbledore against his will...Dumbledore asked him to kill him.
Exactly, Snape didn't defeated Dumbledore by killing him, Draco did by disarming him. And when Draco was disarmed by Harry he was the new owner of the Elder wand. That part is a bit of a stretch, but I see where she went with it.


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  #17  
Old July 24th, 2007, 1:34 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenDay View Post
So, if someone, anytime in the future, disarms Harry (or steals his wand?), they'd have control of the EW. Seems pretty easy to me! Although one could argue that no one but the trio really knows that Harry put the EW back in DD's grave, that wouldn't be too hard to guess. And a lot of people know about the Elder Wand's existence now, since Harry announced it to all of Hogwarts during the final duel.
They'd have to defeat Harry, not just take his wand. Though I've reread the scene where Harry takes Malfoy's wand, and I doubt one would call it "defeating him" since it was really Dobby that dropped the chandelier and sprayed him with a face full of glass, harry just took the wands from his hand. Is it anyone's then, since it was a cooperative defeat, or did it become Dobby's? Of course, that would make the line go: Grindewald-Dumbledore-Malfoy-Dobby-Belatrix-Mrs. Weasley. I think that's kind of funny, personally.


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Old July 24th, 2007, 1:39 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

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Originally Posted by sickoftv View Post
They'd have to defeat Harry, not just take his wand. Though I've reread the scene where Harry takes Malfoy's wand, and I doubt one would call it "defeating him" since it was really Dobby that dropped the chandelier and sprayed him with a face full of glass, harry just took the wands from his hand. Is it anyone's then, since it was a cooperative defeat, or did it become Dobby's? Of course, that would make the line go: Grindewald-Dumbledore-Malfoy-Dobby-Belatrix-Mrs. Weasley. I think that's kind of funny, personally.
Well, we KNOW it chose Harry, because otherwise his stunt at the end wouldn't have worked. But what you say is convincing, it shouldn't have been. Maybe the wand wouldn't choose an elf? I've also been wondering if it might have chosen Nagini rather than Voldemort, if Snape really had been its master at the time...


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Old July 24th, 2007, 1:42 am
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Re: The Elder Wand

When I first read it, I was confused. I kept rereading those lines, but I just wanted to get to the end. However, now I understand it. GoldenDay gives a good explanation.

It’s very mythological.

Many questions still remain, though – like how the “undefeatable wand” has been defeated so many times.


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  #20  
Old July 24th, 2007, 1:50 am
TeraBlight TeraBlight is offline
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Re: The Elder Wand

Quote:
Originally Posted by BelleSnowyOwl View Post
Many questions still remain, though – like how the “undefeatable wand” has been defeated so many times.
If we go with Dumbledore's opinion that the Hallows are not really "supernatural", in the sense in which a wizard would use the word, but just three really powerful object made by three really clever wizard, the wand isn't undefeatable, just harder to defeat than a normal wand.



Last edited by TeraBlight; July 24th, 2007 at 1:58 am.
 
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