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Should spanking be made illegal? V.2



 
 
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  #21  
Old December 1st, 2007, 3:16 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

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Originally Posted by WitchHunter View Post
That may be true of some children, but in many cases children who are not spanked behave horribly because they have nothing to fear.
There are other consequences besides spanking. In many cases, a child may actually fear not being able to go on an outing or having a toy temporarily taken away than they would a spanking.

Quote:
It isn't as simple as protecting citizens' rights. To protect the children from spankings, the government has to violate the parents' right to raise their children as they see fit.
But again, sometimes a parent's idea of what's fit is not viewed as fit by the state or by society as a whole, even. Sometimes there's a fine line between things that probably aren't a good idea but are within the parents' rights, and things that should not or cannot be allowed. I think at the very least, spanking toes that line.

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Originally Posted by Angel26 View Post
What they have learned is that a light tap on the hand means that what they are doing is wrong. It doesn't have to hurt, and they don't even cry when you do it. But it does get them to stop.
Now, I would never recommend outright banning something like that, but then, I don't consider that spanking. If it causes no pain and is done that lightly, I don't think it's the same thing. Shoot, I even do something like that with my cats--I sometimes put a gentle hand on their back if they look like they're going try jumping on something they shouldn't. What I consider wrong is slapping a child hard enough (and with the intent) to cause them pain and/or risk harming them.

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How can anyone say that lightly smacking a child is the same as this and is deserving of the same punishment?
I'm not suggesting that spanking is the same as a major form of abuse. However, I do think it can be a mild form of abuse, and I think that in some cases, it leads to worse abuse. I would say that in most cases, spanking does not deserve much punishment, unless it's severe or has been done a lot. But I don't think it should be allowed, either.

To use your example of sex offenses, no, it's not fair at all for people who do something like streaking to be put on a sex offender list with rapists, but that does not mean that streaking in public becomes a good thing to do or should be allowed or encouraged.

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Originally Posted by rigdoctorbri View Post
One should understand the difference between abuse and discipline. Abuse is the misuse of something. To use physical force to enforce discipline does not constitute abuse. To beat the snot of your child goes well beyond the borders of discipline. It becomes an emotional scare tactic.
I feel that using physical force in discipline is abusive. It incites fear, and is, in my opinion, harmful. It would not be acceptable for one to slap their spouse, so I don't see why it is acceptable to slap a child, who cannot call the police or otherwise defend themselves as an adult can.

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If they enforce a law to stop spankings, then they will move to say you can't grab your kid by the arm, and yank him out of the street before he gets hit by a car, because that is Assault.
I don't think that's the same thing at all.

Think of it this way: Is it illegal to slap another adult? Yes. Is it illegal to pull another adult out of harms way if they're about to be run over by something? No.

There's clearly a difference between slapping someone because you're unhappy with something they've done and saving their life.

Quote:
How do you think we train our most cracked troops for the most brutal combat situations? They go through a training called S.E.R.E. (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, and Escape), where they are basically interred in a prison camp and are roughed up quite a bit to learn what will likely happen to them if they are captured by a dishonorable enemy. These soldiers are beaten, tortured, and broken...and it is all in the name of learning. How is that any different than spanking a child to make them learn that bad behaviour has consequences?
The difference is, people who go into those programs are adults who volunteer. Children are at the mercy of their parents for 18 years and get no say in what family they have or what happens to them.


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Old December 1st, 2007, 3:29 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

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Originally Posted by Voldemorts8thHorcrux View Post
there are way more things to do than spanking. stuff like grounding (which i've gotten out of, but it works for everyone else), or just annoying your kid by yelling at them. my mom doesnt know it yet, but that works on me.
Truly yelling has been shown to have more harmful, and demoralizing effects on kids than spankings. Especially, if the child is made to understand why they were spanked.

When a person yells in anger, words are often let loose that are more damaging than any spanking or, for that matter, any punch can deliver. Unless the yeller is absolutely disciplined in word choice, one might wind up yelling at the child words and phrases like "stupid" "worthless" "Wish you had never been born" "You are the worst kid I have ever seen" "You piece of ***"! Wouldn't one call that "abuse"?

I remember less of the spankings I received, and more of the times that my father cussed and cursed at me. Some of the hurtful things I recall him yelling at me in anger would horrify an impressionable child. He used to call me a "dumb son-of-a-*****" and "****ing retard" "I wish you would just ****ing die!" Today, my father wonders why we don't have a close relationship, and it is because I just don't really like the man. I love him, but I don't like him.

If the government wants to regulate how children are raised, then perhaps they should look at things that can be truly damaging, rather than corrective spankings!


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  #23  
Old December 1st, 2007, 3:31 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

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It isn't as simple as protecting citizens' rights. To protect the children from spankings, the government has to violate the parents' right to raise their children as they see fit.
I'm not saying this is true, but what if that parent didnt care for their child? what if they were, i dont know, drunk or something? what if in some culture, if you get in trouble a lot, you get killed or you get your bones broken or something? its going to far


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  #24  
Old December 1st, 2007, 3:51 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

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Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
I feel that using physical force in discipline is abusive. It incites fear, and is, in my opinion, harmful. It would not be acceptable for one to slap their spouse, so I don't see why it is acceptable to slap a child, who cannot call the police or otherwise defend themselves as an adult can.
One's spouse is an adult (usually) who has paid their dues of learning life-lessons. A child still needs to go through learning stage of growing. That includes learning that consequences are not pleasant, even painful.


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I don't think (grabbing a kid by the arm and yanking them out of a car's path) the same thing at all.

Think of it this way: Is it illegal to slap another adult? Yes. Is it illegal to pull another adult out of harms way if they're about to be run over by something? No.

There's clearly a difference between slapping someone because you're unhappy with something they've done and saving their life.
OK, I admit it is a bad example...

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The difference is, people who go into those programs are adults who volunteer. Children are at the mercy of their parents for 18 years and get no say in what family they have or what happens to them.
A soldier gets no say in where they are ordered to go either? We can only prepare them as best we can for what awaits them. That is what responsible parents do with their children. We prepare them for life, and the most important lesson is that bad (or illegal) behaviour has consequences.

Right now, many kids are entering adulthood, and are already a menace to society. The first ones society blames is their parents for not giving them proper discipline. If we outlaw spanking, then society can stop blaming the parents for not properly disciplining their kids, and start blaming the government for strangleholding parental resources.


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  #25  
Old December 1st, 2007, 5:38 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

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Originally Posted by rigdoctorbri View Post
Truly yelling has been shown to have more harmful, and demoralizing effects on kids than spankings. Especially, if the child is made to understand why they were spanked.
I agree that yelling is a bad way of disciplining. It doesn't do anything constructive, and is often abusive.

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Originally Posted by rigdoctorbri View Post
A soldier gets no say in where they are ordered to go either? We can only prepare them as best we can for what awaits them. That is what responsible parents do with their children. We prepare them for life, and the most important lesson is that bad (or illegal) behaviour has consequences.
Yes, but unless someone lives in a country with mandatory military service, a person chooses to volunteer for the army, and ideally agrees to the terms of entry.

The problem I have the idea of spanking preparing children is, what does it prepare them for? You mention yourself that once one is an adult, they are no longer expected to tolerate being hit. So it's not a consequence that realistically prepares them for what they'll encounter down the road. With your military training example, solidiers are trained to deal with things that they may realistically encounter. That's why I think, whenever possible, discipline should directly reflect the situation. For instance, if a child breaks something of the neighbor's, they should have to apologize and put at least some of their allowance towards repairs or replacements, because when they're an adult, that's what their legal and ethical responsbility will be if they cause damages to someone's property.

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Right now, many kids are entering adulthood, and are already a menace to society. The first ones society blames is their parents for not giving them proper discipline. If we outlaw spanking, then society can stop blaming the parents for not properly disciplining their kids, and start blaming the government for strangleholding parental resources.
But spanking isn't the only possible way to discipline. A decrease in spanking isn't the only change in parenting styles in recent times. There are more double-income families today, so more children are not recieving as much one-on-one time with a parent as before. There is also more permissiveness in general, both at home and in school.


  #26  
Old December 1st, 2007, 5:33 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

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Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
I agree that yelling is a bad way of disciplining. It doesn't do anything constructive, and is often abusive.

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Yes, but unless someone lives in a country with mandatory military service, a person chooses to volunteer for the army, and ideally agrees to the terms of entry
.

We live in a country that, on several occasions, has conscripted personnel to service unwillingly. But, this is off topic.

Quote:
The problem I have the idea of spanking preparing children is, what does it prepare them for? You mention yourself that once one is an adult, they are no longer expected to tolerate being hit. So it's not a consequence that realistically prepares them for what they'll encounter down the road. With your military training example, solidiers are trained to deal with things that they may realistically encounter. That's why I think, whenever possible, discipline should directly reflect the situation. For instance, if a child breaks something of the neighbor's, they should have to apologize and put at least some of their allowance towards repairs or replacements, because when they're an adult, that's what their legal and ethical responsbility will be if they cause damages to someone's property.
You and I don't speak KID. And kids don't speak ADULT. Until we start speaking the same language, we have to find means of communicating discipline. Both parents and children understand the language of a swat on the butt. Parents don't like to spank their kids, and kids don't like being spanked. If you send a three year old to his room, it usually doesn't express anything meaningful to the child. Same if you take a toy away. They are not cognisant enough of the meaning behind the punishment for it to have a true affect. Yet, a swat on the butt is decisive, porportional, and immediate.

They get the message of Geometry...If I throw food, I get a spanking...I guess I shouldn't throw food.

Conversely, If I throw food, I go to my room...which is a place I don't mind being anyway.

Quote:
But spanking isn't the only possible way to discipline. A decrease in spanking isn't the only change in parenting styles in recent times. There are more double-income families today, so more children are not recieving as much one-on-one time with a parent as before. There is also more permissiveness in general, both at home and in school.
I wholely agree.


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  #27  
Old December 1st, 2007, 6:31 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

I honestly cannot fathom why a) the government should be allowed this much intrusion into the ways that parents teach their children and b) why people think spanking is such a bad thing.

It is force and it does hurt. That's the point. People constantly talk about how children have no boundries and again, using spanking does enforce boundries. Yes there are other ways to do it but from my experience they are nowhere near as effective and really a good parent would know where and when force can be applied. Children especially very young children need boundries and they need to have them clearly defined in a why that they will understand.


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Old December 2nd, 2007, 1:43 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

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Originally Posted by rigdoctorbri View Post
.
If you send a three year old to his room, it usually doesn't express anything meaningful to the child. Same if you take a toy away. They are not cognisant enough of the meaning behind the punishment for it to have a true affect. Yet, a swat on the butt is decisive, porportional, and immediate.
Children can differ, obviously, but I think you're underestimating the potential for punishments like time out of taking away privileges/toys. For instance, when I was a child, being sent to my room terrified me. For some children, it's very meaningful. You talk about punishments like this lacking meaning, but I don't see how being spanked or slapped provides any more meaning. Both having your movement restricted and being caused physical pain are unpleasant. The former is far more realistic in terms of fair consequences.

I definitely see how parenting is challenging, but I don't think I will ever see spanking as anything other than wrong.

One question I posed in the first thread that I don't believe was answered: Since the main argument for spanking is that children are unable to understand their actions or reason like an adult, does this mean that it would be equally acceptable to slap or spank adults with mental retardation or mental illness? An adult with delayed or suspended mental development, or who suffers from delusions, may not be able to reason or understand consequences much better than a child can, but most people would view hitting them in any way as a violation of their rights. And most behavioral therapies that deal with reward and punishment make use of such things as token economy, which is also used by many parents (that is, things like taking tokens away for bad behavior, and awarding them for good behavior). I don't see how it's drastically different.



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  #29  
Old December 2nd, 2007, 4:39 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

Jumping in on this thread, Hi everyone!

Ok, here goes. I don't agree with spanking, but I definitely do not think it should be banned or illegal. Parents reserve the right to discipline their kids how they see fit, not the government. A light swat on the butt is perfectly acceptable if the kid is out of line.

When I was growing up my parents used a lot of discipline strategies. I was spanked, had things taken away, and put on time out, among other smaller punishments. Firstly, I would like to say this loud and clear for everyone on this thread who has said spanking is abusive: Spanking a kid is most definitely not abuse! Physical abuse has only happened if there is a mark left on the person.
I was spanked as a child, usually when I had disobeyed and already been warned. My spankings weren't just a swat on the bottom. I was bent over my dad's knee and smacked 3 or 4 times at least. But I was not abused. My dad was raised in a very abusive home. He was beaten, whipped with belts, and had to see his mom beaten with a shovel at the hands of his stepdad. I witnessed my cousins being abused by both of their parents: kicked down stairs, dragged by the hair, kicked in the butt, forced to stand with their nose in the corner for hours on end. There is a massive difference between spanking and abuse, and quite frankly it deeply offends me that anyone would pile them into the same category.

When my sisters and I were spanked, it did it's job. Our bad behavior stopped. I don't look back on those years and think, "wow, my parents were mean!". I look back and am grateful that my parents cared enough about me to teach me right and wrong. It drives me crazy when I meet someone who doesn't treat others politely, and act courteous...It was enforced in my house, and rightly I think, that you always treat people respectfully and act appropriately. I've met/known a lot of people who are completely disrespectful, obnoxious, rude, vulgar, and irritating to everyone around them...kids (or adults even) who go around littering, talking back to elders, harassing people, getting into fights, cursing because they know it offends...at their own parents even, etc, etc, etc. If I had ever done that, I would've been slapped. And I would have deserved to have been slapped. The lack of respect(for each other and themselves) in my generation astounds me. But I'm getting off on a tangent...

There are a lot of parents these days that are so scared of what will happen if they discipline their kids, that there is no discipline at all. And these kids raised with no discipline are the future. Scary thought. I'm not saying people should spank their kids, but too much of the time I see parents who are too afraid that their discipline would be considered "cruel" punishment or abuse, so there is none at all. Kids need boundaries. They need a parent to keep them in line, not someone to be their buddy,they have friends for that. And it needs to be the parent giving the discipline, not handing the kid off to grandparents or school administrators.



I'm not a mom yet, but I have a large family and I'm around my little cousins quite a bit. I have not, nor would I ever, spank those kids. But there have been many, many times when saying no, taking away a toy, putting them on timeout, taking away privileges, etc. just does not work no matter how many hours I keep it up! My only relief with them is that at the end of the day, their parents come home and I can leave. When I am a mommy, if my kids didn't stop bad behavior after a warning, taking something away, and/or a timeout, I would probably resort to a swat on the butt.

DancingMaenid, you asked a couple questions that I want to address. I can't find them all at the moment, so I'll just post my response and hope you know which question I was referring to.

The difference between kids and adults is that kids have what is called Egocentrism. They don't have the mental ability to see things from another's point of view. (ex: if you ask a 4 year old boy if he has a brother, he says yes. You ask if his brother has a brother, he says no. He isn't able to see that he is his brother's brother, because he cannot see things that way.) It's just the way their brain works. That being said, they cannot see the results of their actions. That is why parents have to be the responsible party for them and teach them what is right and wrong. If a law were enforced that spanking was illegal and a kid called in and lied, saying "my daddy spanks me", he cannot see the damage that would do or why it is wrong. By then the damage is already done, as someone upthread stated.

Quote:
One question I posed in the first thread that I don't believe was answered: Since the main argument for spanking is that children are unable to understand their actions or reason like an adult, does this mean that it would be equally acceptable to slap or spank adults with mental retardation or mental illness? An adult with delayed or suspended mental development, or who suffers from delusions, may not be able to reason or understand consequences much better than a child can, but most people would view hitting them in any way as a violation of their rights. And most behavioral therapies that deal with reward and punishment make use of such things as token economy, which is also used by many parents (that is, things like taking tokens away for bad behavior, and awarding them for good behavior). I don't see how it's drastically different.
I'm kind of appalled that you asked this. A child's mind is growing and an incomprehensible speed. They learn new things and store information constantly. In fact, learning a second language is easier as a child because of how quickly they catch onto things. That is why discipline works with kids. Stealing a toy from the store=spanking and taking the toy back and having to apologize...therefore stealing a toy from the store=bad.

An adult who is mentally handicapped is, in most cases, going to stay that way. Their brain is not going to suddenly develop in leaps and bounds. They will be perpetually at the mental age they are at. If a 40 year old man is perpetually 6 years old in mentality, yes he will behave like a 6 year old. But his brain is not growing or expanding so spanking him for wrong behavior is just wrong. He does not have the ability to learn from it. That is the difference.

I'm not condoning spanking at all. In fact, I don't want to spank my kids ever, unless it's a last resort. I think other forms of discipline work much better. But that doesn't mean that spanking should be illegal. Everyone's parenting style is different. The government has no right to butt into personal lives and tell you how to raise your child. No one should be able to tell you how to raise your babies, that should be the parent's job and no one else's.


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  #30  
Old December 3rd, 2007, 2:40 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

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Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
One question I posed in the first thread that I don't believe was answered: Since the main argument for spanking is that children are unable to understand their actions or reason like an adult, does this mean that it would be equally acceptable to slap or spank adults with mental retardation or mental illness? An adult with delayed or suspended mental development, or who suffers from delusions, may not be able to reason or understand consequences much better than a child can, but most people would view hitting them in any way as a violation of their rights. And most behavioral therapies that deal with reward and punishment make use of such things as token economy, which is also used by many parents (that is, things like taking tokens away for bad behavior, and awarding them for good behavior). I don't see how it's drastically different.
A person who has mental retardation or mental illness is without or seriously lacking the ability to reason or learn, so spankings, or "slaps" as you put it, would have little or no value. Children, without mental illness or mental retardation, are capable of learning, so spankings have value in the learning curve.


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  #31  
Old December 3rd, 2007, 3:36 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

I could not accept spanking- it is physical abuse from an adult person over a child or adolescent who is mostly helpless. Psycologists today agree that it has harmful effect on the self esteem and self appreciation of a person.
http://www.thisisawar.com/AuthorsAlice.htm

Spanking should be made illegal and the state should be allowed in this case- only in this- to interfere and protect the children from violent parents. Punishmet , moreover, shouldn't be considered an option with a small child. The most a parent should do is shouting when nothing else works. Shouting not to insult but to show the seriousness of the situation. You could also threaten them with bad consequences and even resort to drastic action- if you have Fred and George for sons.

But not hitting. Nor else humiliting the childs pride. A child is normaly punished enough by its parents anger and impatience to be also smacked on the face or else spanked.

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  #32  
Old December 3rd, 2007, 5:43 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

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Originally Posted by HarrietaPotter View Post
I could not accept spanking- it is physical abuse from an adult person over a child or adolescent who is mostly helpless.
I'd appreciate it if you would read this portion of my last post:
Quote:
Spanking a kid is most definitely not abuse! Physical abuse has only happened if there is a mark left on the person.
I was spanked as a child, usually when I had disobeyed and already been warned. My spankings weren't just a swat on the bottom. I was bent over my dad's knee and smacked 3 or 4 times at least. But I was not abused. My dad was raised in a very abusive home. He was beaten, whipped with belts, and had to see his mom beaten with a shovel at the hands of his stepdad. I personally witnessed my cousins being abused by both of their parents: kicked down stairs, dragged by the hair, kicked in the butt, forced to stand with their nose in the corner for hours on end. There is a massive difference between spanking and abuse, and quite frankly it deeply offends me that anyone would pile them into the same category.

Spanking is not abuse. Spanking is not 'hitting' either, as you put it. To spank a child is to swat them on the bottom. It does not leave a mark and it does not even hurt in many cases. My spankings from my dad were much harder than most kids, but they still only hurt for under a minute. The big thing behind it was shock value.

Furthermore the link you posted, while informative, is not about spanking but ABUSE. They aren't the same, however cruel one thinks spanking to be. Abuse is a disgusting, horrible thing that is intended to cause harm, anguish, and fear. Spanking is a discipline.

While I love the field of Psychology, it's articles like the one you posted that frustrate me. The whole nature vs. nurture thing I guess. What this article was basically saying, from what I skimmed through, was abused children are destined to live poor lives. Take the example the author listed of Christianne...she was beaten, not spanked, as a child because she couldn't tell the difference between H and K when learning to read. She later became a drug addict.

What the article fails to mention is that Christianne made a conscious choice to turn in that direction, whether as a result of that abuse or not. We are not predetermined to turn out a certain way because of our upbringing. Anyone can make a choice to become something different.

Take, for example, a news story I heard about a while back. Identical twin brothers grew up in a broken home, with an abusive alcoholic father. Years later, both are interviewed. One brother is an abusive alcoholic. The interviewers ask him why he turned out the way he did. His answer is, "Look at my father. Look at my role model. How could I hope to be anything different?"
The interviewers find the other twin. He is a successful businessman and a proud father, still happily married. They ask him why he turned out the way he did. His answer is, "Look at my father. Look at my role model. How could I ever let myself become that?"

People can rise above anything. They've done it before, they'll continue to do it. I see people like Christianne as weak. She chose the life of a drug addict, it was not forced upon her because of abuse.

One of my role models always tells me, "Don't limit your challenges, Andrea. Challenge your limits." Don't use your past as an excuse. Build on it. Learn from it. Make a difference. Change it. No one can control who you become except you. It's a choice.

Back on topic, spanking never caused any self-esteem issues in me. I didn't hate my parents, I didn't act out in rebellion, I was a normal, happy child. Only better: I quickly learned the lesson of obedience. Something I'm afraid many of my peers have yet to learn.

If there is abuse going on in a home, then by all means, the child should be taken away and placed in a safe home.

I think there are people in this thread who have never been spanked, and need to realize that it is not some resounding smack across a child's backside that makes it painful to sit down for days afterwards. It is not hitting, striking, smacking, etc. It is a swat on the bottom or a tap on the hand. As I said above, I was spanked quite a bit harder than most people I know, but even my spankings stopped hurting a minute or two after.

Also, in your post you mentioned yelling should be ok. I disagree. Some of the most hurtful memories of discipline for me are memories of being yelled at. Children don't respond well to someone standing above them yelling. It just doesn't work. I have personally found yelling to be quite a bit more hurtful than any other form of punishment. (Including the time my dad put me on the timeout stairs and forgot about me for 3 hours.) I do not clearly remember any distinct time when I was spanked, but I have a clear vivid memory of tons of times when my parents yelled and the things they said.


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Last edited by mac_attack; December 3rd, 2007 at 5:58 am.
  #33  
Old December 3rd, 2007, 7:06 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by mac_attack View Post
Firstly, I would like to say this loud and clear for everyone on this thread who has said spanking is abusive: Spanking a kid is most definitely not abuse! Physical abuse has only happened if there is a mark left on the person.
Is all spanking abusive? Not necessarily. The problem is that there's a huge range of what can be considered spanking, which can vary a lot in severity. One parent might consider tapping their toddler's hand as the child tries to touch an electrical outlet spanking; I do not consider that spanking. Another parent might consider it spanking if they hit their child several times with a wooden paddle in response to misbehavior. Regardless of what you consider abuse, there's a huge difference between just those two actions. I'm inclined to agree with the former as long as the parent is generally doing their best to keep their toddler away from dangerous situations in the first place, but I don't believe there's any excuse for the latter, and I think the latter comes very close to abuse and puts the child at risk of being injured. It should also be noted that spanking can be performed in a way that causes a lot of pain without leaving a mark aside from short-lasting redness of the skin.

It's also important to note that spanking does not have to be physical abuse in order to be abusive. Several studies have shown that children who are spanked may be more aggressive and at least one study suggests that children who are spanked may be more likely to develop some psychiatric issues such as depression later in life. If we accept these findings as being valid or worthy of consideration, then spanking could easily be viewed as emotional abuse.

There are also people who feel that spanking can be considered sexual abuse, especially when parents bare their children's bottom, because spanking is sometimes a sexual activity for adults.


Quote:
If a law were enforced that spanking was illegal and a kid called in and lied, saying "my daddy spanks me", he cannot see the damage that would do or why it is wrong.
I'm not sure if I fully agree with that.

You're right that young children have a hard time seeing things from the point of view of other people. However, this largely depends on the age of the child that we're talking about. An eight or nine year old, of course, is going to have very different cognitive abilities than a three-year-old. I doubt, though, that very young children would be fully capable of scheming in a realistic way to get their parents in trouble. And an older child, even if still not having full cognitive development, would be able to understand the basic consequences of their actions.

But when it comes down to it, if it were universally accepted that spanking is detrimental, would all this be considered an issue? There's a risk of children accusing their parents of abuse, but that is not taken into consideration in making abusive treatment illegal. Also, in cases of sexual abuse, it's been found that young children who accuse caregivers of abuse rarely lie about it.

Quote:
I'm kind of appalled that you asked this. A child's mind is growing and an incomprehensible speed. They learn new things and store information constantly. In fact, learning a second language is easier as a child because of how quickly they catch onto things. That is why discipline works with kids. Stealing a toy from the store=spanking and taking the toy back and having to apologize...therefore stealing a toy from the store=bad.

An adult who is mentally handicapped is, in most cases, going to stay that way. Their brain is not going to suddenly develop in leaps and bounds. They will be perpetually at the mental age they are at. If a 40 year old man is perpetually 6 years old in mentality, yes he will behave like a 6 year old. But his brain is not growing or expanding so spanking him for wrong behavior is just wrong. He does not have the ability to learn from it. That is the difference.
I'm sorry you find the question offensive. However, I would like to note that even though children are capable to growing cognitively, there is also behavior that may be unavoidable. For instnace, toddlers are cognitively unable to control their emotions and may throw a tantrum because that's the only way they know to communicate their frustration. While they should be guided towards more mature behaviors, there's no way that they can really learn not to throw tantrums because they lack emotional control. Also, very young children may not remember recieving a spanking for an offense.

Also, spanking itself does not teach anything. It's a means of conditioning. The child learns that certain behavior will result in pain. And this approach actually is used with some mentally challenged individuals. There is one program that I'm aware of that employs the use of aversion therapy (giving non-dangerous electric shocks to discourage behavior) with autistic and otherwise challenged children. It's very controversial, and not very common, but it has been done. If anything, I think that's a good reason not use spanking on healthy children. Healthy children are capable of more complex development. Using spanking implies that they are not.

Quote:
What the article fails to mention is that Christianne made a conscious choice to turn in that direction, whether as a result of that abuse or not. We are not predetermined to turn out a certain way because of our upbringing. Anyone can make a choice to become something different.
Yes, but you can't deny that parental upbringing can have an important effect. People have only so much control over what happens to them, especially as children. Though they can have some effect over how they react to what happens, their upbringing will always have an effect on how they think and act.

Your example of the twin brothers shows that. The twin who was successful still cited his father as part of why he turned out the way he was.

It's the duty of a parent to give their children the best upbringing they can. For me, if I become a parent, part of that will mean respecting my children and allowing them to grow up without being spanked.

Quote:
Back on topic, spanking never caused any self-esteem issues in me. I didn't hate my parents, I didn't act out in rebellion, I was a normal, happy child. Only better: I quickly learned the lesson of obedience. Something I'm afraid many of my peers have yet to learn.
While it's important for children to obey their parents, teaching obedience should not be a parent's only goal. In fact, blind obedience can cause more harm than good.

Quote:
I think there are people in this thread who have never been spanked, and need to realize that it is not some resounding smack across a child's backside that makes it painful to sit down for days afterwards. It is not hitting, striking, smacking, etc. It is a swat on the bottom or a tap on the hand. As I said above, I was spanked quite a bit harder than most people I know, but even my spankings stopped hurting a minute or two after.
Again, just because that's how you view spanking and how people you know view spanking does not mean that that is how everyone views spanking. After all, you yourself state that in your family, spanking was a bit different than one light swat. Because of that, unless you specify exactly what you consider acceptable, supporting parents' right to spank means accepting both light swats and spankings like the ones you recieved, and hard paddlings and other, more severe, punishments.


  #34  
Old December 3rd, 2007, 10:47 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

I was spanked as a child too, and quite often, because I was a very stubborn and vindictive child. I can honestly say it did more good than damage. I love my parents and have a very fond and close relationship with them, I grew up to be independent and responsible, and have no self-esteem issues or communication problems. Most of my childhood friends were spanked too, and they turned out just fine as well. I personally haven't seen any permanent damage done by spanking.

I do believe there's a lot of exaggeration and generalisation in this area.


  #35  
Old December 3rd, 2007, 3:33 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

No child has ever died, or even permanently injured from an on-the-butt spanking. Thousands have died from malicious abuse, beatings, or floggings.

The pain inflicted from a proper spanking is not much worse than being stung by a bee or falling on one's butt iceskating. Granted those two, and many other things, are accidental, and not intentional, but are we to outlaw bees and iceskates because they can be painful? Of course not. Children get stung by bees, learn that they should go the other way when bees come around, and generally avoid them altogether.

The same goes for a hot pan on the stove. "No, that's hot! No, don't touch that! It's hot!" "NO! NO! NO!" Now, you can continue to tell them no until you are blue in the face, but does it have any value? Not until they learn what "hot" means, or you inflict pain that has the same effect, but does not leave the scar. Many kids have to burn themselves to truly understand the consequences of playing with fire, but others back away at the prospect of a spanking.


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  #36  
Old December 3rd, 2007, 5:04 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by mac_attack View Post
What the article fails to mention is that Christianne made a conscious choice to turn in that direction, whether as a result of that abuse or not. We are not predetermined to turn out a certain way because of our upbringing. Anyone can make a choice to become something different.
I personally find that quite a glib analysis. Of course you can make concious choices to act in a certain way. However, you cannot stop feelings and memories and these often over power good intentions. People need help to get over these problems not to be told that you should choose to behave better.

On topic, a lot of people say that they were smacked/spanked and are perfectly fine now. This is because you have parents who know the importance of structure, praise and calm controlled disapline. However, most of the parents who smack children don't understand the importance of these things and therefore the child does not learn anything.

All of this post is IMHO of course!


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  #37  
Old December 3rd, 2007, 11:39 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarrietaPotter View Post
Spanking should be made illegal and the state should be allowed in this case- only in this- to interfere and protect the children from violent parents. Punishmet , moreover, shouldn't be considered an option with a small child. The most a parent should do is shouting when nothing else works. Shouting not to insult but to show the seriousness of the situation. You could also threaten them with bad consequences and even resort to drastic action- if you have Fred and George for sons.
I would disagree. My father implemented this "shout without insulting" method, and I am now deathly afraid of loud noises. My brother and I were also spanked on occasion. The spanking did not leave a lasting impression in my memory; in fact, the only spanking I can remember is when my brother was punished and not me, and he doesn't even remember it. However, my heart races whenever I even flush a public toilet. I'd say being shouted at was much more harmful than a spanking.

Seems to me that many people are against spanking because of what it is (a physical punishment), and not because of its effects. Sending a child to bed without dinner is also a physical punishment - is that next to be banned?


  #38  
Old December 4th, 2007, 12:07 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

Well Iím just going to jump in here at this point, Iíve been thinking about this for a couple of days as itís a topic that I am interested in, having studied childcare.

Ok, should spanking/smacking a child be made illegal? No, I donít believe that it should.

Should spanking/smacking be used as a form of discipline? It shouldnít be.

Yes, I know, I sound like a hypocrite, saying that on the one hand it shouldnít be made illegal but on the other hand it shouldnít be used as a form of punishment. I used to believe that a light smack on the hand was ok, but since studying childcare and child psychology, Iíve learnt that there are so many other more appropriate ways of disciplining children, which will help them to see that what they did was wrong, that smacking/spanking should just be forgotten about.

however, I do realize that parents are human beings, and while they might have the best intentions never to slap or spank their child, itís impossible to always keep their cool and patience with children as well as other adults. For example if a child was to do something dangerous, where they could end up being seriously hurt, I donít think that I would be able to keep my cool, and would probably end up giving them a smack to make sure they didnít do it again. Now is it fair for a parent to be punished for losing their cool 1 time out of a hundred? I donít think so.


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  #39  
Old December 4th, 2007, 3:25 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

My sister and I have never been spanked by either of our parents. Actually no, once when I was about 2 my mum spanked me and she felt so incredibly guilty afterwards she never did again (of course I dont remember this, she told me). My sister and I are both perfectly well adjusted, well behaved people despite never having been punished physically. They (our parents) usually take something away from us if we've done something wrong and this is usually very effective. If my parents ever hit me no matter how hard Id leave home immediately. They have no right to hit me, no matter what I may or may not have done. It would taint my view of them forever and, whether they hit either myself or my sister it would take a lot of forgiving.
Both of my parents were spanked by their fathers as children and this has lead them to be so insistant on never hitting either my sister or me. I know my mother still cant bring herself to forgive her father and my dad and his dad havent spoken for 20+ years (of course there were other factors involved, however they both mentioned that spanking made their childhoods a whole lot more miserable).

Having said that, I dont think the state has any right to tell parents how to raise their kids. THe only time there should be intervention is if there is evidence of abuse.


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  #40  
Old December 4th, 2007, 5:30 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

Were those really spankings, or actually beatings? There is a huge difference on the psyche of a child. Beatings are violent affairs rather than firm hands.


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