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Should spanking be made illegal? V.2



 
 
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  #61  
Old December 7th, 2007, 5:41 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

I want it clear that the situations I noted in my previous post were satirecal, and most had nothing to do with spanking. The correlation one might infer is that the general mentality to how we approach discipline is changing exponentially. This is going across the board, and spanking is only one part of the sweeping change.

I look at society today, and compare it to society 30 years ago, and in a lot of ways we were much better off. My parents' parents used the spanking in proper discipline, they both turned out right, and used such discipline on me and my brother. Today we are both successful, with high morals, and deeply respectful of others. Now, people of political position wish to legislate a basic human right to raise our children as we see fit. Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!


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  #62  
Old December 7th, 2007, 11:14 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Overdose View Post
I honestly cannot fathom why a) the government should be allowed this much intrusion into the ways that parents teach their children and b) why people think spanking is such a bad thing.

It is force and it does hurt. That's the point. People constantly talk about how children have no boundries and again, using spanking does enforce boundries. Yes there are other ways to do it but from my experience they are nowhere near as effective and really a good parent would know where and when force can be applied. Children especially very young children need boundries and they need to have them clearly defined in a why that they will understand.
When it comes to spanking, its how you spank your child. i'm only twelve, so i'm extremely glad i'm not a mother , but is kind of like animal abuse. when you want a dog to not do something, you sort of give them a small slap so it gets the idea. little kids, in a way, are kind of like that. a small slap, with some sting, but not much, will help them understand what is right and wrong.


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  #63  
Old December 14th, 2007, 2:52 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

Well, first of all, I myself don't believe in spanking. As a child, my dad would take a belt, and spank myself and my siblings just because we weren't picking up a candy rapper from the floor. It's insane to spank your child for little reasons, it's abuse to me. But, if the U.S. was to outlaw spanking, people who spank their kids would say that it's not fair, and that they should be able to even kill their kids if they wanted to. And usually, spanking is from parents, who as children, were spanked as well, and because of that, they're doign the same thing as their parents. It's like this; basically, what your parents do to you, wether ignoring you as a child, etc. That's what you're going to do, and you're going to think that it's OK. If my parents decided to leave me alone for most of the time when I was a child, I would probably do the same thing to my kids, and I wouldn't think anything of it. I would just think that it was OK to do that. Anyway, that's sort of what I think, I think that parents should think of better ways to punish their children, because I think that it can get pretty abusive.


  #64  
Old December 14th, 2007, 2:52 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

When you see a candy wrapper or other debris on the floor, do you still step over it?


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  #65  
Old December 14th, 2007, 3:31 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

Uhh, no. What I'm saying is, there are better ways to punish your kids.

Plus, if you were to say, because he stopped picking up candy rappers, it must be because of the spanking. Well, if you ask me, that's a bunch of bull-****. That's like saying a child starts picking up his blankets from off the floor because his dad beats him with a wooden stick.



Last edited by Luka13; December 14th, 2007 at 3:38 pm.
  #66  
Old December 14th, 2007, 5:46 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

alright...obviously, it did make a lasting impression, though...you were whipped and knew the reason...you didn't want that to happen again, so you did not repeat the behaviour.


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  #67  
Old December 14th, 2007, 8:57 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

Well, not always you would know the reason, and the reason those behaviors were stoped was mostly because we knew better. This subject could go on, and on, we would still point out some good opinions about the matter, and well, I don't have all year... Anyway, I'll get out of the conversation.


  #68  
Old December 15th, 2007, 2:25 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luka13
Well, not always you would know the reason, and the reason those behaviors were stoped was mostly because we knew better.
How did you know better? If there are never any consequences, children will never learn what is acceptable and what is not.


  #69  
Old December 15th, 2007, 2:31 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

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Originally Posted by WitchHunter View Post
How did you know better? If there are never any consequences, children will never learn what is acceptable and what is not.
Well, there should be better ways to show a child the consequences of bad behaviors.


  #70  
Old December 30th, 2007, 12:08 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

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Originally Posted by rigdoctorbri View Post
.

We live in a country that, on several occasions, has conscripted personnel to service unwillingly. But, this is off topic.



You and I don't speak KID. And kids don't speak ADULT. Until we start speaking the same language, we have to find means of communicating discipline. Both parents and children understand the language of a swat on the butt. Parents don't like to spank their kids, and kids don't like being spanked. If you send a three year old to his room, it usually doesn't express anything meaningful to the child. Same if you take a toy away. They are not cognisant enough of the meaning behind the punishment for it to have a true affect. Yet, a swat on the butt is decisive, porportional, and immediate.

They get the message of Geometry...If I throw food, I get a spanking...I guess I shouldn't throw food.

Conversely, If I throw food, I go to my room...which is a place I don't mind being anyway.



I wholely agree.
Obviously, you would know your own child, and wouldn't send a child to their room that likes being there better than the family room. Now, sending me to my room would have no effect as I'm there most of the time anyway, but when I was younger I used to hate it, partly because I knew that being sent to my room meant I had done something wrong, and I didn't like being in trouble. For some kids, a spanking might actually be less of a punishment than taking away a favourite toy.

I don't think there's anything wrong with a light tap on the back of the hand for a young child, who won't understand an explanation. I don't think that all kinds of physical discipline should be banned, as, like all tools, the way it is used is far more important than what the tool actually is. Plus, it would be a very difficult ban to enforce, which would make it pointless. As others have pointed out, yelling at a child can actually be far more abusive in some cases. If a light tap (that should not leave a mark, or be painful, more just pressure) is used to enforce "No!" for a young child, when nothing else was working, its completely different to someone hitting their kid out of temper in the middle of an argument, or hitting them once they get home for an earlier misdemeanor.


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  #71  
Old December 30th, 2007, 11:28 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

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Originally Posted by Luka13 View Post
It's insane to spank your child for little reasons, it's abuse to me. But, if the U.S. was to outlaw spanking, people who spank their kids would say that it's not fair, and that they should be able to even kill their kids if they wanted to.
I agree with you that if people constantly smack their children for little reasons like not picking up a candy wrapper that it is a form of abuse. But I do feel that it is unfair for any government to encroach so much on telling people how they should discipline their children, because for the majority of parents they will know what is right for their own children and they will know when to stop. I like to believe that the amount of parents who actually go over the edge towards being abusive is in the minority.


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  #72  
Old December 30th, 2007, 3:34 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

People need to understand that there is a difference between dicipline and abuse, these liberal ******** like to convince people that both things are the same. They aren't.

My parents spanked me occasionally when I was little and I did bad things. It's the most effective way to dicipline kids and teach them what is acceptable behavior and what isn't. Why do you think kids are so ****ed up these days? Teen drinking and pregnancies are at an all-time high, it's because kids were never diciplined.

I'm all for spanking, of course it should be monitered why and how parents spank their children.


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  #73  
Old December 30th, 2007, 8:50 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

More than the act of illegalizing spanking and taking power away from the parents is the precident that will be set.

At what point will the government stop? Will they insist that we stop raising our voices at the children because it is verbally abusive? Will that insist that we not put them in the corner, facing the wall because it damages the child's psyche? Will they legislate that we can no longer make them do chores because they get shin-splints?


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  #74  
Old December 30th, 2007, 11:06 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

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Originally Posted by rigdoctorbri View Post
At what point will the government stop? Will they insist that we stop raising our voices at the children because it is verbally abusive? Will that insist that we not put them in the corner, facing the wall because it damages the child's psyche? Will they legislate that we can no longer make them do chores because they get shin-splints?
Personally I feel as though the government is trying to make people raise kids who are never disciplined, don't realise there are consequences to their actions and these will all have negative affects on children as they grow up.

Sure, there are other ways to discipline children, and they can be quite effective, but sometimes a child will do something that may cause the parents to smack them. Should parents be deemed as abusive because of this? No.


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  #75  
Old December 30th, 2007, 11:27 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

My kids got spanked but with my hand on the bottom not hard, but it certainly didn't hurt them as much as a neighrbor of mune who called his son "Wasted sperm" sometimes words hurt more then a tap on the behind.


  #76  
Old December 30th, 2007, 11:36 pm
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

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Originally Posted by Mrscole View Post
My kids got spanked but with my hand on the bottom not hard, but it certainly didn't hurt them as much as a neighrbor of mune who called his son "Wasted sperm" sometimes words hurt more then a tap on the behind.
Exactly, there's a clear distinction between discipline and abuse but unfortunately verbal abuse is a lot harder to pin down than physical abuse.


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  #77  
Old December 31st, 2007, 2:34 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

I dont think its correct to do it,sometimes as adults,peopel abuse their position and spank thier kids whenecer they do something worng...

I am a mom,and yes i have spanked my girls but not everytime,only after the things have gone too far.and isolence becomes being present...But i know relatives of mine who will spank their kids for whatever reason they think it appropaiate.I think spanking should be there as the very ,very ,very ,very last resort you have and nothing else you have tried works...and used very occasionally.


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  #78  
Old December 31st, 2007, 3:07 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

I apologize now, as this post has become massive.

To begin, I do believe in spanking children when the need arises. I have two children; one is 2 1/2 and the other only a month old. The former got his first spanking at about 1 1/2, and gets spanked when his actions need an immediate and easy-to-understand punishment. I always accompany a spanking with the reason for it, and never spank my child after the fact or hard. In fact, sometimes it is so light he just looks at me and says, "Mommy! Stop spanking Evan!" The point is not in hurting him but in letting him know my immediate displeasure and to help him understand what he did is not okay and should not be done again.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
That's why I think, whenever possible, discipline should directly reflect the situation. For instance, if a child breaks something of the neighbor's, they should have to apologize and put at least some of their allowance towards repairs or replacements, because when they're an adult, that's what their legal and ethical responsbility will be if they cause damages to someone's property.
As someone who never had an allowance growing up because quite frankly we were too poor to afford one, this would not have worked. I was not fond of much of anything; I did not have a favorite toy, was equally content to play inside as outside, and quite frankly loved spending time in my room. I imagine I was a hard one to think up punishments for, and spankings worked on me. Or, I should say, the threat of a spanking, since I can remember relatively few actual spankings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
There are also people who feel that spanking can be considered sexual abuse, especially when parents bare their children's bottom, because spanking is sometimes a sexual activity for adults.
I personally find this statement a bit offensive. It brings to mind a challenge many breastfeeding mothers are facing more and more often in our sex-obsessed society: the danger of being accused of abuse because you breastfeed. It is not uncommon for a woman to feel mild sexual arousal while breastfeeding. For this reason, more than one woman has had her child removed from her care (while the child is still actively breastfeeding, mind) for several months while claims of sexual abuse were being investigated.

It is a very thin line to be walking when making that statement.

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Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
You're right that young children have a hard time seeing things from the point of view of other people. However, this largely depends on the age of the child that we're talking about. An eight or nine year old, of course, is going to have very different cognitive abilities than a three-year-old. I doubt, though, that very young children would be fully capable of scheming in a realistic way to get their parents in trouble. And an older child, even if still not having full cognitive development, would be able to understand the basic consequences of their actions.
One the surface, I would be inclined to agree. However, I have a niece and a nephew who are quite young (3 and 6) who do understand being able to hold something over a parent's head and wouldn't hesitate to do so if it would get them their way. What they fail to understand is that if they are mad at dad and claim being spanked, it isn't just daddy that is going to "learn a lesson"; they will be taken away from both parents and possibly other siblings. I have a niece who is nine who, sadly, would probably use a law against spanking to manipulate her parents and only be sorry and rescind her statement after the consequences occur.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
But when it comes down to it, if it were universally accepted that spanking is detrimental, would all this be considered an issue? There's a risk of children accusing their parents of abuse, but that is not taken into consideration in making abusive treatment illegal. Also, in cases of sexual abuse, it's been found that young children who accuse caregivers of abuse rarely lie about it.
But isn't sexual abuse quite different from a spanking? Or even from a beating?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
I'm sorry you find the question offensive. However, I would like to note that even though children are capable to growing cognitively, there is also behavior that may be unavoidable. For instnace, toddlers are cognitively unable to control their emotions and may throw a tantrum because that's the only way they know to communicate their frustration. While they should be guided towards more mature behaviors, there's no way that they can really learn not to throw tantrums because they lack emotional control. Also, very young children may not remember recieving a spanking for an offense.
Speaking as a parent of a two-year-old, I can say with confidence that this is not true. My son may begin to throw a tantrum, but when I tell him to stop yelling and screaming and begin to count to five, he stops before I get to "two". A toddler may not be able to stop themselves from crying after truly being hurt, but they most certainly are capable of stopping a tantrum in mid-scream.

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Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
It's the duty of a parent to give their children the best upbringing they can. For me, if I become a parent, part of that will mean respecting my children and allowing them to grow up without being spanked.
Are you implying that parents who spank do not respect their children? I don't think you are, but your wording here makes it sound as though that is what you are doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
Not only can spanking be very harmful to some children, but it does not teach anything except to fear the parents and become conditioned against doing something the parent disapproves of.
I respectfully disagree with that. I was spanked and did not fear my mother for it. If anything, what I feared most was being yelled at. To this day, I start crying every time a person begins to yell at me. It scares me to a point I don't care to expand on.

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Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
I already used myself as an example of someone who may well have been harmed by spanking. As a child, I think there was a good chance that I was suffering from undiagnosed childhood depression. My parents never knew this. My mom wasn't aware of the problem until I finally told her years later what I'd been going through at the time. This wasn't because they were neglectful parents--I was very good at hiding things and was determined that they not know because I thought I'd have to go to the hospital. During that time of my life, I took any parental discipline extremely hard, and had a strong fear of rejection. So thinking about this, I have to wonder if, had I been spanked, I might have killed myself or tried to run away (something I thought about doing every day, even without a reason). It's a definite possibility.
I personally doubt that spanking would have yielded the results you present as possible unless your parents had introduced spanking during that time of your life; if you had grown up with it, it would likely have had no different effects than what your parents used for disciplining you your entire life. I speak from my own personal experience in the very same subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
Not all children are the same. They will not react to punishments the same. Some even healthy children suffer from spankings. There have been studies suggesting that spanking can increase the risk of agressiveness and depression, especially if done frequently.
Bold is mine.
Could you please site these studies for me? Especially the one that you drew the statement I have made bold from.

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Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
I was not spanked as a child, and I was not spanked by my parents, but I would not say that I have no idea of what it can be like or what it feels like. I do personally know what spanking can feel like, which is all I'll say about my personal experience with it.
While you may have personal experience with spanking, by your own admission you do not know the spanking that is administered by a loving parent in attempts to correct wayward behavior. Even when the spanking seems more extreme than others, the majority of parents who spank that I have ever known or known of do so in love and with a child's best interest at heart and in mind. It brings me no pleasure to spank my son, yet I do so when I feel it is needed to correct a behavior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DancingMaenid View Post
Time out is rarely lengthy, since it's recommended to do according to the child's age. A toddler would not be in time out for more than a minute or two.
What is recommended is rarely followed, in my experience, and I have known small children who are sent to "time-out" and are forgotten about.

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Originally Posted by OldLupin View Post
For a toddler a minute or two is a lifetime. Lengthy is a subjective term. My point is that if you ask a toddler after a two-minute "time out" why they were put in time out, you only have about a 50-50 chance they will remember correctly. In terms of association of consequence with the action that isn't a very good means of correction. In some ways, if the time out is short enough for them to associate it isn't much of a deterrent and if it is long enough to be a deterrent it is more apt to be associated poorly or interpreted as a simple act of rejection or disapproval which is a pretty negative outcome for a child. I am not saying time outs are not useful, but it shouldn't be used to correct more serious and possibly dangerous behavior.
I use time-outs on my toddler, and as you say, he often forgets why he was put into time-out and needs to be reminded. However, when he does something that could potentially harm himself or others, a time-out takes far too long to only possibly convey a message he needs to learn quickly. Therefore, I use spankings. In fact, about twenty minutes ago he was given a quick, light spanking for kicking his one-month-old brother's face. (His brother is fine. ) He needed to understand it is not acceptable and he is going to be held responsible for his actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luka13 View Post
But, if the U.S. was to outlaw spanking, people who spank their kids would say that it's not fair, and that they should be able to even kill their kids if they wanted to.
Okay, I have to say something to this because it is a complete and total exaggeration, in my opinion. I spank my child when the need arises. I do not spank hard and I do not spank often. How does anyone have the right to tell me how to raise my children? And should a law ever pass in my state that outlaws spanking, I would never, never presume to claim I should be allowed to kill my own child if I felt like it! Any parent who would kill their child isn't using spanking as an efficient way to lovingly correct a child. It is outrageous to me how lightly anyone can claim different.


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  #79  
Old December 31st, 2007, 9:04 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

Quote:
Originally Posted by mexicant View Post
I personally find this statement a bit offensive. It brings to mind a challenge many breastfeeding mothers are facing more and more often in our sex-obsessed society: the danger of being accused of abuse because you breastfeed. It is not uncommon for a woman to feel mild sexual arousal while breastfeeding. For this reason, more than one woman has had her child removed from her care (while the child is still actively breastfeeding, mind) for several months while claims of sexual abuse were being investigated.

It is a very thin line to be walking when making that statement.
I agree that in general, spanking is not sexual abuse. However, there are some isolated cases where it could be considered such, and there are people who see a correlation between a child being spanked frequently and that child later engaging in sexual spanking as an adult.

Quote:
Are you implying that parents who spank do not respect their children? I don't think you are, but your wording here makes it sound as though that is what you are doing.
I don't think that most parents who spank lack respect for their children, though I think some may, when they do it in anger and for their own benefit (to make their child be quiet, for example) rather than in an attempt to discipline. Generally, I do not see spanking as being a respectful thing to do in many cases. Also for some individuals, myself included, it would be impossible to spank in a way that could not be viewed as disrespectful or abusive. For instance, I have anger management issues. If I were to show respect to any children I might have, that would mean never doing anything to them that could be agressive.

Quote:
Could you please site these studies for me? Especially the one that you drew the statement I have made bold from.
It's difficult for me to locate the studies themselves because many are only accessable via the web through sites that must be subscribed to.

ReligiousTolerance.org, which is a fairly neutral site, includes information on various studies, however.

This page describes the results of two studies in the late 1980s that showed that children who were frequently spanked showed an increase in problem behaviors and lowered IQ scores. A 1995 study showed a possible increase in depression, anxiety, and substance abuse among children who were spanked. For instance, almost twice as many subjects who were rarely spanked suffered from substance abuse problems than those who were never spanked (10.2% compared to 5.8%).

This page describes more recent studies. One 2001 study grouped parents in categories of "red zone" (severe and frequent punishment that was not considered bad enough to be abusive), "orange zone" (frequent spanking), "yellow zone" (moderate spanking) and "green zone" (rare or no spanking).

Quote:
Originally Posted by religioustolerance.org
They found a major correlation between spanking and long-term harm to children among "Red zone" parents. Among the remaining parents, they found small but significant correlations between the level of physical punishment and later misbehavior among the children at age 8 to 9. Ms. Baumrind said that "the children of parents in the green zone who never spanked were not better adjusted than those, also in the green zone, who were spanked very seldomly." She emphasized that her study did not study how abusive physical punishment harms children. She said that she and other researchers have found ample evidence of that in other studies.
A 2002 meta-analysis of 88 studies showed a correlation between spanking and mental health issues, agression, criminal behavior, and future abuse of ones child or spouse as an adult, again, with the frequency and severity of the spanking being shown to affect the severity.

There's also a 2004 study that suggests a link between spanking and antisocial behavior.

In general, the studies I've seen and read about tend to suggest the same thing: the more frequently and severely a child is spanked, the more harm it is likely to do, and mild, infrequent spanking, at best, is shown to not do any harm, which is a lukewarm finding, at best. I've yet to see a reasonable study that suggests that any sort of spanking benefits children, aside from enforcing immediate compliance.

Quote:
What is recommended is rarely followed, in my experience, and I have known small children who are sent to "time-out" and are forgotten about.
That's very similar to my own problem with spanking. I don't know you, your children, or your entire family situation, but you sound like a loving mother who's doing all that she can to raise her children in a good, loving way. And in terms of spanking, it sounds like you're doing it in a way that's unlikely to cause harm.

However, not all parents spank the way you do. Just as it's legal for you to give your child a light swat, it's also legal for a parent to spank their child for several minutes with a solid wood paddle, which unfortunately happens in some households. Also, you mention spanking toddlers, but spanking a toddler is a very different matter than spanking a child of say, eleven, who is likely able to be reasoned with and disciplined in other ways. However, it's legal for parents to use spanking on older children and even use it as the main form of discipline, which is discouraged by experts. Most of the people I know who were spanked in later childhood bear some resentment for it.

There's also a problem of parents losing their patience and spanking their kids because they're annoyed with them and don't have the patience to deal with their children in any other way.

Just because you're a good parent doesn't mean that everyone is, and I think there's enough evidence to suggest that spanking, at least if done wrong, can be harmful.


  #80  
Old January 1st, 2008, 1:28 am
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Re: Should spanking be made illegal? V.2

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Originally Posted by Montse View Post
I dont think its correct to do it,sometimes as adults,peopel abuse their position and spank thier kids whenecer they do something worng...

I am a mom,and yes i have spanked my girls but not everytime,only after the things have gone too far.and isolence becomes being present...But i know relatives of mine who will spank their kids for whatever reason they think it appropaiate.I think spanking should be there as the very ,very ,very ,very last resort you have and nothing else you have tried works...and used very occasionally.
That is the point of using a spanking as a learning tool. It is not the only punishment for every indescretion or error a child makes. It is part of progressive discipline. You start with basic correction by saying "no". If that doesn't work, move to taking away whatever object they are abusing. If there is no object, or if that does not work, give them a Five Minute Time Out. If that does not work, put them in their room. If that does not work, bottoms up! It is the final level of discipline and the one the child really does not wish to repeat. Those other disciplines will teach them that punishments can be mild or major depending upon how responsive they are to the progressive discipline model.


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