Login  
 
 
Go Back   Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Non Harry Potter Archives

Fossil Fuel



 
 
Thread Tools
  #21  
Old October 13th, 2009, 4:34 pm
FlashMemory's Avatar
FlashMemory  Female.gif FlashMemory is offline
Third Year
 
Joined: 3113 days
Location: Elstead
Age: 24
Posts: 433
Re: Fossil Fuel

Thanks for the information, I don't think it's a new thing.. it's been known about for years but like you say, it's extraction wouldn't be good news for the evironment.


Sponsored Links
  #22  
Old October 15th, 2009, 3:59 pm
purplehawk's Avatar
purplehawk  Female.gif purplehawk is offline
Renegade
 
Joined: 5260 days
Location: Buckeye Country
Age: 68
Posts: 28,447
Re: Fossil Fuel

I just read the most amazing headline:

"Saudis Seek Payments for Any Drop in Oil Revenues"

This isn't the first times they've tried this. They've never succeeded in their attempts, but they have been effective in delaying or disrupting negotiations as the Times notes. This is the argument they're bringing to Copenhagen in December.

The New York TimesThe chief Saudi negotiator, Mohammad al-Sabban, described the position as a “make or break” provision for the Saudis, as nations stake out their stance before the global climate summit scheduled for the end of the year.

“Assisting us as oil-exporting countries in achieving economic diversification is very crucial for us through foreign direct investments, technology transfer, insurance and funding,” Mr. Sabban said in an e-mail message.


I'm not much impressed by this.


__________________



"A great democracy does not make it harder to vote than to buy an assault weapon."

~ President Bill Clinton ~
August 28, 2013
50th Anniversary of "I Have a Dream"


All opinions expressed are my own and do not reflect those of any political or government body.
  #23  
Old October 16th, 2009, 2:23 am
luvlunalovegood  Female.gif luvlunalovegood is offline
Third Year
 
Joined: 3082 days
Location: Australia or with Luna
Posts: 350
Re: Fossil Fuel

Quote:
Originally Posted by purplehawk View Post
I'm not much impressed by this.
I'm novery impressed either. You would have though that these people had better things to discuss and more effective actions to get going.


__________________

LUNA LOVEGOOD

unafraid to express her views

intelligent and artistically creative

comforting and understanding

willing to be brave

loyal to friends


How else could I admire her?
  #24  
Old November 27th, 2009, 11:06 pm
Jetty  Male.gif Jetty is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 4097 days
Location: Moscow, Russia
Age: 27
Posts: 202
Re: Fossil Fuel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenshi View Post
Very true about the skyrocket prizes. Most of our oil is diged in the Arabic countries. And it will become impossible for some people to pay for it when it's running low. We will have car free days again like during the oil crisis centuries ago, when nobody was allowed to drive on a Sunday in Germany to save oil.
I am pretty sure that lots of people disagree with your last sentences. I am not totally against nuclear energy, but afterall it's too dangerous and poluting in the end.
In what way can it be polluting? Of course, nuclear power stations pushes out a little amount of ionised into atmosphere, but thermal stations pushes radiation out more, because coal includes radioactive elements. As for potential threat of disasters, actually the risk of them is low, if nuclear stations are exploited correctly and the systems of safety on stations has been significantly updated since Chernobyl. Though, of course, we should never except bad cases. But all in all air pollution created by thermal stations is uncomparable with one by any other type of energy station. By the way nuclear stations are really the most efficient and totally they are the least expensive taking into account all factors - building, exploitation etc.


  #25  
Old November 28th, 2009, 4:16 am
Wab's Avatar
Wab  Undisclosed.gif Wab is offline
The Next Great Adventurer
 
Joined: 5159 days
Location: Mornington Crescent
Posts: 15,268
Re: Fossil Fuel

Quote:
Originally Posted by purplehawk View Post
I just read the most amazing headline:

"Saudis Seek Payments for Any Drop in Oil Revenues"

This isn't the first times they've tried this. They've never succeeded in their attempts, but they have been effective in delaying or disrupting negotiations as the Times notes. This is the argument they're bringing to Copenhagen in December.

The New York TimesThe chief Saudi negotiator, Mohammad al-Sabban, described the position as a “make or break” provision for the Saudis, as nations stake out their stance before the global climate summit scheduled for the end of the year.

“Assisting us as oil-exporting countries in achieving economic diversification is very crucial for us through foreign direct investments, technology transfer, insurance and funding,” Mr. Sabban said in an e-mail message.


I'm not much impressed by this.
While I have little sympathy for the House of Saud allowing the world's only Wahabbist state to fail will not be in the interests of anyone. (Granted, they've already done enough exporting extremism, but when the oil revenue runs out, it just might implode.)

Other Arab states have managed to diversify without any special assistance, although Dubai's is looking a bit shaky (Dubai-ous?) just now.


__________________
A patriot is someone who wants the best for his country, including the best laws and the best ideals. It's something other people should call you -- you shouldn't call yourself that. People who call themselves patriots are usually liars. -- Donald Woods

You got what anybody gets . . . You got a lifetime. -- Death of the Endless
  #26  
Old November 28th, 2009, 11:46 pm
Lunatic  Male.gif Lunatic is offline
Banned
 
Joined: 3835 days
Location: Ravenclaw Common Room
Posts: 741
Re: Fossil Fuel

The problem with Oil is that it is the source of energy that power the infractructure that supplies our food. Without it, we are limited to what we can get within a limited area. This is a reality (one of many) that many "man on the street" types are divorced/distracted from.

When the brown stuff hits the fan, that could mean lots of dead people.

All the Best,

Lunatic


  #27  
Old December 14th, 2009, 2:02 pm
madfox  Undisclosed.gif madfox is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 4527 days
Location: Third rock from the sun
Age: 41
Posts: 146
Re: Fossil Fuel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetty View Post
In what way can it be polluting? Of course, nuclear power stations pushes out a little amount of ionised into atmosphere, but thermal stations pushes radiation out more, because coal includes radioactive elements.

There is the matter of the radioactive refuse left over from the process that the current plants can not figure out what to do with. They bury it, it leaks, they dump it on Native lands, it leaks. They store it in casks on site where they can keep an eye on it, it doesn't leak as often, but they are really ticking the people nearby off every time they have to ask permission to build yet another cask. They talk about putting it in Yucca mtn, people point out it's on a fault line, plus there is the transportaion issue, on the highways. Until they get that stuff straightened out... IMOHO


__________________
Brute force crushes many plants. Yet the plants rise again. The Pyramids will not last a moment compared with the daisy. And before Buddha or Jesus spoke the nightingale sang, and long after the words of Jesus and Buddha are gone into oblivion the nightingale still will sing. Because it is neither preaching nor commanding nor urging. It is just singing. And in the beginning was not a Word, but a chirrup.
-- D. H. Lawrence, Etruscan Places

Coretta Scott King[/size]: "Many despair at all the evil and unrest and disorder in the world today, but I see a new social order and I see the dawn of a new day." "
"In the fight for social justice, no one shall again be left behind" ~ addressing the people at the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Annual Conference.
  #28  
Old December 14th, 2009, 2:36 pm
Midnightsfire  Undisclosed.gif Midnightsfire is offline
Member of the Order
 
Joined: 5614 days
Posts: 9,409
Re: Fossil Fuel

Quote:
Originally Posted by madfox View Post
There is the matter of the radioactive refuse left over from the process that the current plants can not figure out what to do with. They bury it, it leaks, they dump it on Native lands, it leaks. They store it in casks on site where they can keep an eye on it, it doesn't leak as often, but they are really ticking the people nearby off every time they have to ask permission to build yet another cask. They talk about putting it in Yucca mtn, people point out it's on a fault line, plus there is the transportaion issue, on the highways. Until they get that stuff straightened out... IMOHO
And accidents happen. And when it does, no one will want to be in the country. (And no one can promise that such incidents won't happen again.)

Although existing plants do make for some cheap real estate, who will want one built near them and their families?


__________________
All fighters are pig-headed some way or another: some part of them always thinks they know better than you about something. Truth is: even if they're wrong, even if that one thing is going to be the ruin of them, if you can beat that last bad out of them... they ain't fighters at all.

---Eddie Scrap-Iron Dupris (Million Dollar Baby)
  #29  
Old December 14th, 2009, 3:34 pm
Wab's Avatar
Wab  Undisclosed.gif Wab is offline
The Next Great Adventurer
 
Joined: 5159 days
Location: Mornington Crescent
Posts: 15,268
Re: Fossil Fuel

It would be interesting to see how many executives of the companies which run nuclear plants (and the politicians who approve them) live near (or better yet) right nest their plants. After all, if they are perfectly safe they'd be a great spot to raise their kids. Perhaps this should be a condition of approval.


__________________
A patriot is someone who wants the best for his country, including the best laws and the best ideals. It's something other people should call you -- you shouldn't call yourself that. People who call themselves patriots are usually liars. -- Donald Woods

You got what anybody gets . . . You got a lifetime. -- Death of the Endless
  #30  
Old December 14th, 2009, 4:16 pm
Lunatic  Male.gif Lunatic is offline
Banned
 
Joined: 3835 days
Location: Ravenclaw Common Room
Posts: 741
Re: Fossil Fuel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wab View Post
It would be interesting to see how many executives of the companies which run nuclear plants (and the politicians who approve them) live near (or better yet) right nest their plants. After all, if they are perfectly safe they'd be a great spot to raise their kids. Perhaps this should be a condition of approval.
I love it. Do the same with builders of oil refineries also.

All the Best,

Lunatic


  #31  
Old December 14th, 2009, 4:19 pm
Youdan Youdan is offline
Fourth Year
 
Joined: 4328 days
Posts: 527
Re: Fossil Fuel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunatic View Post
When the brown stuff hits the fan.
Lunatic
That brown stuff is the source of fuel. meathane. if it can be collected in big enough numbers. Any orgainic break down will porduce meathane. The problems are many first meathane has BTU value of between 450-550 Vs Naural gas BTU value 1000. the equipmnet that uses meathane gas requires higher maintance. Vs the maintance needed for Natureal gas and collecting enought orginic waste to make it viable. Most industries that make and use meathane use it as a off set for importing its engery needs. but if the engery costs are reduce by 10 to 50% that can be a big savings.


  #32  
Old December 14th, 2009, 6:02 pm
Lunatic  Male.gif Lunatic is offline
Banned
 
Joined: 3835 days
Location: Ravenclaw Common Room
Posts: 741
Re: Fossil Fuel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Youdan View Post
That brown stuff is the source of fuel. meathane. if it can be collected in big enough numbers. Any orgainic break down will porduce meathane. The problems are many first meathane has BTU value of between 450-550 Vs Naural gas BTU value 1000. the equipmnet that uses meathane gas requires higher maintance. Vs the maintance needed for Natureal gas and collecting enought orginic waste to make it viable. Most industries that make and use meathane use it as a off set for importing its engery needs. but if the engery costs are reduce by 10 to 50% that can be a big savings.
And I know that they've done some wonderful stuff with methane in rural India, providing electricity to those who don't have it, with their own and their animal's excrament. Still, I don't think it's good with fans.

All the best,

Lunatic


  #33  
Old December 14th, 2009, 8:02 pm
Youdan Youdan is offline
Fourth Year
 
Joined: 4328 days
Posts: 527
Re: Fossil Fuel

But it is fun to watch the stuff go through the fans. controlling the discharge. spraying where you want it. its great fun. Natural aeration cheeper then trying to froce the air through it. The paterns you can make.
there have been many tries at useing it it thrid world countries but it take a lot of orgainic materal to make it efficent. ie longer then a couple of hours a day. I would need to look up the ratio of kgs of oraganic to M3 of gas.


  #34  
Old December 15th, 2009, 11:49 am
madfox  Undisclosed.gif madfox is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 4527 days
Location: Third rock from the sun
Age: 41
Posts: 146
Re: Fossil Fuel

The work here in Mn is on using tubs of algae to create ethanol, which is a lot more efficient than using corn or other crops. The problem there is that it is still burned, sending crud into the atmosphere...

I have this theory that making fire is somehow written into our DNA. People figured out in the way back when, after making tools, to control and manipulate fire and that meant better living. So when we are trying to promote or imagine different energy sources, we humans have a REALLY hard time not coming back to burning stuff.

There are several ways to create energy by changing the state of a material than burning, but not a lot of people working to make them consumer feasible.


__________________
Brute force crushes many plants. Yet the plants rise again. The Pyramids will not last a moment compared with the daisy. And before Buddha or Jesus spoke the nightingale sang, and long after the words of Jesus and Buddha are gone into oblivion the nightingale still will sing. Because it is neither preaching nor commanding nor urging. It is just singing. And in the beginning was not a Word, but a chirrup.
-- D. H. Lawrence, Etruscan Places

Coretta Scott King[/size]: "Many despair at all the evil and unrest and disorder in the world today, but I see a new social order and I see the dawn of a new day." "
"In the fight for social justice, no one shall again be left behind" ~ addressing the people at the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Annual Conference.
  #35  
Old December 15th, 2009, 5:59 pm
Chris's Avatar
Chris  Undisclosed.gif Chris is offline
Custodian of Hades Vault
 
Joined: 3984 days
Location: Monoc Securities
Posts: 4,653
Re: Fossil Fuel

I have high hopes for biofuels, etc, but the issues of scale-up of the fermentation broths and efficiency in carbon fixation, etc, are not easy to deal with.

I'm also one of the few ardent "we need to deal with global warming" types who is a firm proponent of nuclear power as an alternative. It's not perfect, but I think that the US could help wean itself off of coal, etc, by incorporating nuke power along with wind and solar and other sources.

Back to the biofuels - the more efficient they are in "fixing" CO2, the better off we are in the end, even if we burn the biofuel - it gets closer and closer to a net carbon neutral process.


__________________
RLF_Icons (signature)

In case I forget: Opinions posted in the US Political Discussion forum are posted as a member and not as a moderator


Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will tell you the truth. - Oscar Wilde

We're all human, aren't we? Every human life is worth the same, and worth saving. - Kingsley

Sustainability should be a part of what we do every day.
  #36  
Old December 16th, 2009, 9:18 am
madfox  Undisclosed.gif madfox is offline
Second Year
 
Joined: 4527 days
Location: Third rock from the sun
Age: 41
Posts: 146
Re: Fossil Fuel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post

Back to the biofuels - the more efficient they are in "fixing" CO2, the better off we are in the end, even if we burn the biofuel - it gets closer and closer to a net carbon neutral process.
I agree, the only thing I worry about is finding something a little bit better, but then falling into the same rut again that we are currently in with coal and oil. A fair number of electrical power plants still in operation still burn coal and are state of the art tech from the turn of the century, with slightly upgraded scrubbers in the stacks. The people who built those plants never dreamed that we'd just keep fixing the old tech rather than coming up with a much better idea than coal in 20 or 30 years. It's like we (humans) get in the mindset to throw a bunch of money into something every 100 years or so, then cheap out and just accept the unintended consequences instead of continuing to strive and improve.


__________________
Brute force crushes many plants. Yet the plants rise again. The Pyramids will not last a moment compared with the daisy. And before Buddha or Jesus spoke the nightingale sang, and long after the words of Jesus and Buddha are gone into oblivion the nightingale still will sing. Because it is neither preaching nor commanding nor urging. It is just singing. And in the beginning was not a Word, but a chirrup.
-- D. H. Lawrence, Etruscan Places

Coretta Scott King[/size]: "Many despair at all the evil and unrest and disorder in the world today, but I see a new social order and I see the dawn of a new day." "
"In the fight for social justice, no one shall again be left behind" ~ addressing the people at the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Annual Conference.
  #37  
Old December 16th, 2009, 11:57 am
Youdan Youdan is offline
Fourth Year
 
Joined: 4328 days
Posts: 527
Re: Fossil Fuel

Fossil fuel is cheeper than an other froms of power.
One of the things people don't like to look at is the cost of these other forms of power. And how much are people willing to down grade their lifestyles for it.
Will industural nations turn into thrid world nations where only the rich can afford buy that power.
Other forms of power might be better or greener but at what cost and at what price can the average buyer afford and when dose it become so expensive that the average person can't or wont buy it.



Last edited by Youdan; December 16th, 2009 at 12:02 pm.
  #38  
Old December 16th, 2009, 12:42 pm
Wab's Avatar
Wab  Undisclosed.gif Wab is offline
The Next Great Adventurer
 
Joined: 5159 days
Location: Mornington Crescent
Posts: 15,268
Re: Fossil Fuel

Fossil fuel is also a finite resource. Depending on who you trust the age of cheap oil is over, or almost over. But there is a reasonable consensus that sometime this century oil will lose its cost advantage.

The winners will be the countries which can make the switch to non-carbon and renewable sources. China is one of the leaders and is on track to reach its target of 20% renewable by 2020.

By 2010 the use of solar hot water heaters (which is pretty old technology) in China will equal the thermal equivalent of electrical capacity of 40 large nuclear power plants.

http://www.energymatters.com.au/inde...article_id=700


__________________
A patriot is someone who wants the best for his country, including the best laws and the best ideals. It's something other people should call you -- you shouldn't call yourself that. People who call themselves patriots are usually liars. -- Donald Woods

You got what anybody gets . . . You got a lifetime. -- Death of the Endless
  #39  
Old December 17th, 2009, 12:46 pm
Tenshi's Avatar
Tenshi  Undisclosed.gif Tenshi is offline
She Who Walks Behind
 
Joined: 4641 days
Posts: 6,298
Re: Fossil Fuel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Youdan View Post
Fossil fuel is cheeper than an other froms of power.
One of the things people don't like to look at is the cost of these other forms of power. And how much are people willing to down grade their lifestyles for it.
Will industural nations turn into thrid world nations where only the rich can afford buy that power.
Other forms of power might be better or greener but at what cost and at what price can the average buyer afford and when dose it become so expensive that the average person can't or wont buy it.
Prices are dictated by supply and demand. The more suppliers there are the cheaper the price. If there were only a few companies which had a monopoly on it that would be different.


__________________


The End of the Dream.
  #40  
Old December 17th, 2009, 4:04 pm
Youdan Youdan is offline
Fourth Year
 
Joined: 4328 days
Posts: 527
Re: Fossil Fuel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenshi View Post
Prices are dictated by supply and demand. The more suppliers there are the cheaper the price. If there were only a few companies which had a monopoly on it that would be different.
Who has the money to build in the scale needed to supply the demand for power except governments. Able to get a return on cost of building new high tech or green power stations. the price for that power will be higher if they only recover the cost of building it.



Last edited by Youdan; December 17th, 2009 at 4:06 pm.
 
Go Back  Chamber of Secrets > Forum Archives > Non Harry Potter Archives

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 3:27 pm.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Original content is Copyright © MMII - MMVIII, CoSForums.com. All Rights Reserved.
Other content (posts, images, etc) is Copyright © its respective owners.