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Abortion V.5



 
 
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  #681  
Old June 27th, 2010, 4:34 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

I think we have enough already of what 'double standards' means or does not mean. I also think we have enough of accusing everyone else, fellow posters included, of applying double standards.

So, discuss the topic, which is abortion, and do it in a friendly way treating each others with due respect or look forward to 120 days in the bin.
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  #682  
Old June 27th, 2010, 4:58 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
Hmmm, okay. The pro-choice arguement says that a woman should be able to have sex without being a parent if she so wishes. Thus you have abortions often despite the man whom may actually want the child. If that is the case then a man should also have the same priveledge. No? But here's the rub, should a woman decide she would like to follow through the pregnancy the man is obligated to follow through with parenting regardless if he wants to or not. Of course people will then say that because she carries the pregnancy she gets the choice and the man gets no choice either way. The double standard comes in because pro-choice advocates say that they should not have to be beholden to their bodies (ie. can have sex without taking on the responsibilities that come with having sex) but when denying men their rights then all of a sudden the woman body is superior because she can get pregnant. So which is it? In effect pro-choice advocates tend to give priority to their own gender when they claim that their gender should not force them into parenthood.
I see where you're coming from with this, and I understand your stance fully. I can qualify myself as pro choice; I can't say that you're describing me, though. I don't base my pro choice belief on the fact that a woman should be allowed to have sex without becoming a parent if that's what she wishes; use contraception if you feel that way about it. I'm pro choice because I think you're big enough to make your own decisions without me harping on about it.

My point here is that as a pro-choice person, I don't care how you decide, what you decide or who you involve in your decision. It's your choice- I can't judge that, I can't decide for you- and I don't want to, because then my own personal thoughts get involved. And I haven't even mentioned my own personal thoughts here.

I can run around the issue and consider it in different ways as to whether the male ought to be involved or not, or which one has more of a decision to make- but I know that that really only comes into play when I am the one who has to make the decision.

It's not my place to dwell on other people's choices. If ever I were to make the decision myself, then I would work on these considerations for myself. Otherwise, my own thoughts are not particularly relevant: that's the "choice" bit right there; each to their own.

I'm pro choice: that means that I think people should be left to decide alone.

I imagine quite a few people who say they are pro choice would agree with me on this, and it's simply the case that throughout this thread, their own personal thoughts have gotten intertwined in what is a hypothetical discussion. Possibly.


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Last edited by vampiricduck; June 27th, 2010 at 5:01 am.
  #683  
Old June 27th, 2010, 11:25 am
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Re: Abortion V.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
Hmmm, okay. The pro-choice arguement says that a woman should be able to have sex without being a parent if she so wishes. Thus you have abortions often despite the man whom may actually want the child. If that is the case then a man should also have the same priveledge. No? But here's the rub, should a woman decide she would like to follow through the pregnancy the man is obligated to follow through with parenting regardless if he wants to or not. Of course people will then say that because she carries the pregnancy she gets the choice and the man gets no choice either way. The double standard comes in because pro-choice advocates say that they should not have to be beholden to their bodies (ie. can have sex without taking on the responsibilities that come with having sex) but when denying men their rights then all of a sudden the woman body is superior because she can get pregnant. So which is it? Sex is just sex with no strings attatched (i.e pregnancy/parenthood) or sex does have strings attatched? In effect pro-choice advocates tend to give priority to their own gender when they claim that their gender should not force them into parenthood.
I just want to say that it's completely untrue that ALL people on the pro-choice side believe ALL of what you have said here. I, for example, think (and have said so in the past in this thread or the previous one) that a man should no more be forced to support a child when he has expressly said he does not want one than a woman should be. I don't fall into that sweeping category you have established here. I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Although, when a child is born, it's no longer a part of anyone's body and it's a completely different issue altogether. So I don't think this logic is all that sound to begin with.

As for "has abortions often"... The importance of contraception has been stressed numerous times on this thread by people on the pro-choice side. So I really am at a loss to understand where you are getting this from. As a whole, I'd like to say, politely, that I find your generalization of so many differing viewpoints and arguments under the same denominator and then applying to everyone who might identify as pro-choice unfair, counterproductive and inflammatory.



Last edited by Yoana; June 27th, 2010 at 11:32 am.
  #684  
Old June 27th, 2010, 5:15 pm
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Re: Abortion V.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
I just want to say that it's completely untrue that ALL people on the pro-choice side believe ALL of what you have said here. I, for example, think (and have said so in the past in this thread or the previous one) that a man should no more be forced to support a child when he has expressly said he does not want one than a woman should be. I don't fall into that sweeping category you have established here. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
Had a long post typed out and lost it! But I feel like you read my post out of context. Which would be me trying to indentify with MNF. (And maybe not succeeding since he hasn't posted back yet. ) This does not mean that I give any credence to that line of thought. I am pro-life. Sex=Babies. You have sex and you accept the consquences. Man or woman. For me it's incredibly simple. Who is physically capable of carrying the baby is irrelevant to me. People should take care of their children. And I said as much to MNF.

Quote:
Originally posted by Me
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnightsfire
Gender specific perspectives are interesting. And lets face it, the only real way a man has anything to say about the thread topic is if the man in question is ready for fatherhood.

Me:

That is very interesting that you should say that. However,simply not being ready for parenthood, mother or father, is in no way grounds for an abortion or being a deadbeat dad, imho.
And then he asked if that was all I saw. And I said no and the post you quoted was what I saw from what I imagined was his point of view. That doesn't mean I agree with it. Oh the hazards of talking to too many people at once!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana

Although, when a child is born, it's no longer a part of anyone's body and it's a completely different issue altogether. So I don't think this logic is all that sound to begin with.
For me, personally, it doesn't matter at all. But from other viewpoints women don't want to be tied to their bodies. Hence the sex education and contraception. Neither do men. A woman should not be able to fall back on her biological difference from men when in essence they are arguing that they should be allowed to discard the biological function. But my whole point is it seems logical to you, but someone with a different viewpoint, namely men, see it quite differently. But me? I apply the same strictures for men and women. There is very little to debate if you are pro-life. As I told MNF above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana

As for "has abortions often"... The importance of contraception has been stressed numerous times on this thread by people on the pro-choice side.
Can you quote this exactly? I'm getting lost

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana

As a whole, I'd like to say, politely, that I find your generalization of so many differing viewpoints and arguments under the same denominator and then applying to everyone who might identify as pro-choice unfair, counterproductive and inflammatory.
I'm not applying it to everyone. I was simply trying to identify with MNF, to show him that I understand why he feels the way he does (and I'm way off base probably). He seemed to me to not be against abortion (i.e the whole rape conversation) yet he didn't seem thrilled with the pro-choice aspect either. Which is rather confusing.


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Last edited by flimseycauldron; June 27th, 2010 at 5:18 pm.
  #685  
Old June 27th, 2010, 5:24 pm
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Re: Abortion V.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
Can you quote this exactly? I'm getting lost
Here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
Hmmm, okay. The pro-choice arguement says that a woman should be able to have sex without being a parent if she so wishes. Thus you have abortions often despite the man whom may actually want the child.


  #686  
Old June 27th, 2010, 5:42 pm
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Re: Abortion V.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoana View Post
Here:
Lack of punctuation on my part.

It should have read thus you have abortions,often despite the man whom may actually want the child.

I didn't mean "having alot of abortions" I meant that in the case of men who want their baby/child there are abortions performed against their wishes. In reverse you could say that for men who don't want their baby/child many women willl often choose to keep the baby. In either scenario the man has no choice.

But, you see, I'm probably still not explaining myself very well. It all becomes so complicated and so easily inflammatory, imho, if you approach it that way. For me, personally, there is no ambiguity. And very little explanation is needed. An innocent life is an innocent life. There's really no ambiguity. Which is why it often comes down to "what constitutes a life" arguement.


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