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  #1  
Old July 20th, 2010, 2:30 pm
Lunalovegood2  Female.gif Lunalovegood2 is offline
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Gay Marriage

what do you think of gay marriage ?
Full marriage is going to be pasted by the UK coalition government
at the moment in the UK same sex couples can have a civil partnership but doesn't give the same rights as marriage the same sex marriage would allow same sex couples have the same right as heterosexual couple have
http://www.edgeftlauderdale.com/inde...sc3=&id=108186


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  #2  
Old July 20th, 2010, 7:16 pm
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Re: gay marriage

Argentina legalized gay marriage less than a week ago.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10630683


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  #3  
Old July 20th, 2010, 8:22 pm
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Re: Gay Marriage

I read about Argentina as well. Good for them! I hope this would speed it up for other nations, too.


  #4  
Old July 20th, 2010, 8:47 pm
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunalovegood2 View Post
what do you think of gay marriage ?
Full marriage is going to be pasted by the UK coalition government
at the moment in the UK same sex couples can have a civil partnership but doesn't give the same rights as marriage the same sex marriage would allow same sex couples have the same right as heterosexual couple have
http://www.edgeftlauderdale.com/inde...sc3=&id=108186
I applaud this move - I've always thought that insisting on the phrase "civil partnership" instead of "marriage" was a weak compromise which pleased no-one.

I'm puzzled that the DT says that UK civil partners don't have the same rights as married couples. I'm pretty sure they have the same inheritance rights, next of kin rights and can adopt children. Anyone know which rights they don't have (apart from the right to get married in church, which I also think they should have, if the church concerned is OK with that)?


  #5  
Old July 20th, 2010, 10:13 pm
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Re: Gay Marriage

I am totally in favour of introducing gay marriage (as opposed to that separate institution 'civil partnership') in the UK.

As far as I am aware, the rights are to all intents and purposes the same - so much so that even the very conservative (and fortunately shelved) proposal for a marriage tax relief would have applied to civil partners, too.

I think the one big difference is that civil partnership ceremonies can't at the moment be held in all the same venues as marriages (and not in any religious venues). The Prime Minister has already said that he wants to change this, so even the Conservatives are getting better at this (this is the same David Cameron who voted against repealing the homophobic 'section 28' in 2003 - how times have changed).


Concerning this statement by Simon Hughes - as far as I understand, he stated this *as his personal opinion* on what he thought is likely to happen. This is not an official government policy statement.


However, one more remarkable sign of how much times have changed:
Here is the main report of this, in the Daily Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...-to-marry.html

Check the end of the article, where the Telegraph protests that the Tories didn't need pushing on this issue, because they had been the most eager to change the law in the first place.

Could anybody have imagined the Telegraph insisiting on the the Conservative party's pro-gay credentials just two or three years ago? Astonishing!

... which is why I think that Simon Hughes's assessment is probably pretty astute in assessing the chances of such a legislation.


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  #6  
Old July 20th, 2010, 10:42 pm
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Re: Gay Marriage

I fully support same sex marriage with equal legal recognition.


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  #7  
Old July 21st, 2010, 1:33 am
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Re: Gay Marriage

I support gay marriage fully. Love is love, and who is to say that a gay/lesbian couple can't love or love their children more than a man and woman can?


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  #8  
Old July 21st, 2010, 4:48 am
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Re: Gay Marriage

That's so exciting for Argentina, and looking great for the UK!

I was researching political candidates (Australian federal election is in a month) this morning and was quite upset to see the current PM (who is an atheist, has never married, and a Labor member) is strongly against gay marriage. The opposition leader is against just about everything that's fair and reasonable so there's no hope there either Frankly it's embarrassing that a country like Australia doesn't have gay marriage. We give everyone access to healthcare (something I'm very proud of), university (regardless of whether they can afford it) and schooling, all basic needs, but not marriage, something that really doesn't affect the economy negatively (I can only see it improving the economy actually), doesn't hurt anybody, and is an expression of something positive. It's depressing.


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  #9  
Old July 21st, 2010, 8:27 am
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Re: Gay Marriage

Over here, everyone (every politician, I mean) is against gay marriage. While the world makes large strides in a matter of a couple of years, as Klio points out, we're still in that part of the debate where we argue for or against a gay pride parade. That's where public discourse of homosexuality is over here. It's like we're separated by half a century from the western world by now, and the gap is rapidly growing. One (1) politician expressed support for the annual gay pride parade in Bulgaria (this year it was held for the 3rd time), and he was nearly crucified.


  #10  
Old July 21st, 2010, 10:10 am
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Re: Gay Marriage

Yoana, change can come fairly quickly - but only if the society underneath changes, too.

Here in the UK homosexuality was illegal until the 1960s (I think? - there are plenty of gay people in public life who grew up when homosexuality was illegal and who sometimes note that fact). But since then, society as a whole has simply stopped being bothered about it. Recently a prominent minister had to resign: he had claimed expenses in a fraudulent manner to hide the fact that he was gay. Public reaction focused on the financial issue (which was the only reason why he had to resign) and lamented the fact that there were still men who thought they couldn't come out. The idea that a gay man can't be a minister because he is gay simply didn't arise. I think that in the UK specifically public schools, colleges and various public all-male institutions (particularly elite institutions) always had a certain indifference to homosexuality and that has perhaps in the end accelerated the change.


Still, it is remarkable how especially the Conservatives have changed recently, and I think they did so because David Cameron (no fan of gay rights himself until a few years ago) simply realised that homophobia no longer helps to gain votes.

The transformation was shown particularly clearly when David Cameron and Nick Clegg (that's his Deputy Prime Minister in our new coalition government) gave their first press conference after taking office - and everybody compared it to a civil partnership ceremony. I would have expected the PM's press office to go into overdrive to dispel the image - but that's not what happened. It's gone so far that Cameron has jokingly referred to his Deputy as 'my civil partner' - and nobody, including the Deputy PM himself, minding in the least: the joke isn't actually about homosexuality any more - it is about that unlikely poltical 'marriage' between the two men and their parties. Of course, both men have families, and Cameron has an obviously pregnant wife, so he doesn't have to feel threatened in his straight credentials. But I couldn't imagine Austrian politicians, for example, playing with the image of gay marriage/civil partnership so insouciantly. I was really quite struck by this, and I think it's obviously a good thing to see our politicians so... 'un-threatened' by homosexuality, seeing them treat civil partnership as such a normal thing.

I think that a lot of homophobia comes from people, men specifically, feeling inscure about homosexuality. The more it comes to be seen normal and unthreatening, the better it is for public discourse.


... but in the end, society needs to change - since politicians are more likely to follow social changes (which is what gets them votes), rather than to lead them. And this is what seems to have happened in the UK.


I am not saying that it's all great here in the UK - there is still a long way to go on many issues. But I think its a good example of how things do change, and how it isn't just a niche thing which just affects gay people - it really makes a difference to public discourse and people's outlook.


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Last edited by Klio; July 21st, 2010 at 10:24 am.
  #11  
Old July 21st, 2010, 10:17 am
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Re: Gay Marriage

I've still yet to hear a rational argument against same sex marriage.


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  #12  
Old July 21st, 2010, 10:53 am
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hysteria View Post
I was researching political candidates (Australian federal election is in a month) this morning and was quite upset to see the current PM (who is an atheist, has never married, and a Labor member) is strongly against gay marriage.
I find that really surprising and disappointing, too. What reason(s) does she give?


  #13  
Old July 21st, 2010, 11:03 am
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Re: Gay Marriage

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Originally Posted by Melaszka View Post
I find that really surprising and disappointing, too. What reason(s) does she give?
"The marriage act is appropriate in its current form, that is recognising that marriage is between a man and a woman."- Julia Gillard.

That's all I could find. Frankly, her reasons don't matter to me, whatever they are, I'm still extremely disappointed, and slightly disgusted.


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  #14  
Old July 21st, 2010, 2:21 pm
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hysteria View Post
"The marriage act is appropriate in its current form, that is recognising that marriage is between a man and a woman."- Julia Gillard.

That's all I could find. Frankly, her reasons don't matter to me, whatever they are, I'm still extremely disappointed, and slightly disgusted.
She's just trying to secure votes. She's on shaky ground as it is with the way she ousted Rudd that she needed to make sure all of the average white middle and lower classes were kept happy enough that they'd vote for her, and sadly, making voters happy does not include legislating on gay marriage. That is a problem with the people, not the politicians. Could you honestly say that she would still be voted in if she wanted to legalise gay marriage?

In any case, it is still disgraceful, if expected.


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  #15  
Old July 21st, 2010, 4:29 pm
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Re: Gay Marriage

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Originally Posted by moogirl View Post
She's just trying to secure votes. She's on shaky ground as it is with the way she ousted Rudd that she needed to make sure all of the average white middle and lower classes were kept happy enough that they'd vote for her, and sadly, making voters happy does not include legislating on gay marriage. That is a problem with the people, not the politicians. Could you honestly say that she would still be voted in if she wanted to legalise gay marriage?

In any case, it is still disgraceful, if expected.
I realise it's about securing votes, but when she's going up against one of the most bigoted politicians who've led either major party (in my life-time, I mean) I think it'd be the perfect opportunity to put gay marriage in the spotlight. As much as some people dislike the idea of gay marriage, I think they dislike some of Abbott's ideas more. Maybe I'm giving people too much credit, I don't know. But really, it has to be done sooner or later. Gillard seems like the obvious choice, to me.


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  #16  
Old July 22nd, 2010, 2:39 pm
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hysteria View Post
I realise it's about securing votes, but when she's going up against one of the most bigoted politicians who've led either major party (in my life-time, I mean) I think it'd be the perfect opportunity to put gay marriage in the spotlight. As much as some people dislike the idea of gay marriage, I think they dislike some of Abbott's ideas more. Maybe I'm giving people too much credit, I don't know. But really, it has to be done sooner or later. Gillard seems like the obvious choice, to me.
To be honest, I think you're more giving Labor too much credit. They're very centrist, even a bit right-wing, and always have been for a union party. I can't honestly see them bringing up controversial issues like gay marriage any time soon unless they feel that they'll gain relatively more votes.

But I'm kinda with you - we have very open gay communities, and Australia at large is more accepting than ever of gay people. On top of that, we're not generally picky about religious issues. You'd think these are all ingredients for reform, but, apparently not. This is why we need to vote in the Greens.


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  #17  
Old July 22nd, 2010, 11:21 pm
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by AldeberanBlack View Post
I've still yet to hear a rational argument against same sex marriage.
Same here. Most of what I've heard (seeing as I live in a largely Christian community and went to Catholic school) is the religious [staff edit] "Gays seek to destroy the sanctity of marriage".


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Last edited by Melaszka; July 23rd, 2010 at 12:00 am. Reason: Bashing certain religious groups
  #18  
Old July 23rd, 2010, 5:08 am
NickHeartsMat  Female.gif NickHeartsMat is offline
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Re: Gay Marriage

I am completely for gay marriage. I honestly don't see the problem with it or how it affects anyone. I am completely appalled that there is such a big opposition to gay marriage. I can't even wrap my mind around it. Everyone deserves to be with the person they love regardless of their sexual orientation. To deny anyone that sort of happiness seems so cruel to me. Also, the argument that gay marriage would destroy the sanctity of marriage in general is laughable because I am pretty sure plenty of straight marriages have already done that (imo).


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Old July 23rd, 2010, 5:20 am
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Re: Gay Marriage

Quote:
Originally Posted by lightreading View Post
"Gays seek to destroy the sanctity of marriage".
Heterosexuals have already done a good enough job with that anyway imo.

IMO, denying marriage to homosexuals is cruel, and nothing more than bigotry.


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  #20  
Old July 23rd, 2010, 9:45 am
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Re: Gay Marriage

The usual reason against it that I hear is that it's "unnatural" and a "deviation" to be gay. When someone points out that plenty of animals engage in same-sex too, so it can't be "unnatural" for humans, they turn around and demand that we're not animals, after all, so why should we compare ourselves to them? So even if you don't have a religious book to cite from, you can still find excuses to be against homosexuality, in nature or a supposed human superiority over nature (simultaneously - the paradox of it should be enough to make them question their convictions, but apparently reason doesn't matter, convictions do.)


 
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