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People's Misconceptions of Feminism



 
 
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  #381  
Old August 17th, 2010, 1:18 pm
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Re: People's Misconceptions of Feminism

Quote:
Originally Posted by MistressofRaven View Post
It is a fact that some people learn about certain issues and others don't.
Maybe the difference is people see/know about a situation, but they have differenct conceptions and judge it differently. And not that some don't know at all that it exists. For example the infamous "holding doors open" issue, some think it's sexism, others that it's courtesy and a nice thing to do. Or other situations like "there are less women in top management positions". One group thinks that the woman is being discriminated, others may think that there are other reasons why there are less women (the male counterpart did a better job for example). Now tell me who's right here? Others see discrimination, where others not. Again IMO does this all depend on personal opinion.


A few days ago I watched an interview with a ex-model and the Queen of Feminism of Germany, Alice Schwarzer. Schwarzer kept on criticising how the model is a shame for society and to quote "a slap in the face of women", cause she dares to dress sexy. Bzuh? I fail to see how that woman is for women rights and that women should be able to do what they want, when she says things like this. She is telling the other women how she's not allowed to dress. That is paternalism.



Last edited by Tenshi; August 17th, 2010 at 1:37 pm.
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  #382  
Old August 17th, 2010, 1:47 pm
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Re: People's Misconceptions of Feminism

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Originally Posted by Tenshi View Post
Or other situations like "there are less women in top management positions". One group thinks that the woman is being discriminated, others may think that there are other reasons why there are less women (the male counterpart did a better job for example). Now tell me who's right here? Others see discrimination, where others not. Again IMO does this all depend on personal opinion.
EDIT: I'm sorry, I didn't think my post through with regard to its being in the hot zone. I withhold my question and would like to ask a different one: seeing as men dominate almost everywhere which is considered prestigious, would you say that men are generally better at almost everything than women?



Last edited by Yoana; August 17th, 2010 at 2:23 pm.
  #383  
Old August 17th, 2010, 1:54 pm
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Re: People's Misconceptions of Feminism

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Last edited by Hes; August 17th, 2010 at 2:05 pm.
  #384  
Old August 17th, 2010, 3:22 pm
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Re: People's Misconceptions of Feminism

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Originally Posted by Trixa View Post
How do they not live by their motto?

I feel that they say that they want equality. But true equality doesn't spring from one source or one philosophy and to claim that your philosophy is the better one. Then I listen to feminists say how women should be able to dress sexy and walk down the street without harrassment and then be taken to task for doing their hair or shaving their armpits and falling into male dominated society. Which is it? Which one of those things is going to creat equality? If you say, well it's a combination, how so? When and where do you draw the line? Personal experience? If personal experience is all you can go by in that situation how do feminists feel comfortable enough to make sweeping statements about something as serious as harrassment and something as nebulous as shaving ones legs under societal influences? And how can feminists do that without mocking other women or thinking them misguided?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Trixa View Post
It isn't about who needs it more. When feminists do something to improve the situation of women they don't take anything away from other groups in society. It's not a matter of women vs gay people, for example. In fact, feminism has contributed to more tolerance for people of a different sexual orientation.
If it's not about who needs it more than why pick and choose between different groups? If you are promoting tolerance across the board then, to me, you are less a feminist than simply a human rights activist. But if your only contribution is toward women then you are saying that women need it more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trixa View Post
I don't understand. If I flip a burger, regardless of how unimportant someone might think the job is, shouldn't I be paid the same as a guy who flips burgers?

What I am illustrating is that flipping a hamburger is flipping a hamburger. No one can claim just because they have a degree that they are better than another person to flip hamburgers. It's only when you get to the higher levels of work and pay that you begin seeing pay discrepencies. It's rare in those upper paying jobs to claim that anyone deserves better pay or less pay simply based on their gender. At those levels nothing is equal. There are so many factors in play in those jobs that it's impossible to say that anyone is doing the "same job" as the next person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trixa View Post
I don't see why any prejudiced person who has issues with men needs to be called a feminist. This is not what feminism is about and it has never been about that. I don't mind those women calling themselves feminists but I do mind it when people say we can't define feminism as being about equal rights just because there are individuals who have misconceptions regarding it.
But talk to one of those other feminists and she will tell you something different. If feminists can't be united on there core messages than I simply don't see how anyone can make a sweeping statement about what feminism is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trixa View Post
It's not about knowing anything for sure or being better than other women, it's about questioning things that we have taken for granted for so long.

Can anyone just answer me this question? Since nobody is stopping you from discussing anything how is it right or fair to label someone because they do not want to have that discussion or do not see the need to have such a discussion? How can you blythly discuss how women are "setting themselves up for a fall" without demeaning those women?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MistressofRaven View Post
And what's so wrong with being enlightened? Being enlightened about a particular subject does not make one better than other people; it just means you've made a conscious effort to learn about something.

And who's to say that your version of enlightenment is fact? It is merely philosophy that people simply don't agree with.


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Last edited by flimseycauldron; August 17th, 2010 at 3:31 pm.
  #385  
Old August 17th, 2010, 3:47 pm
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Re: People's Misconceptions of Feminism

No one is speaking about their version of enlightment being fact or the ultimate truth. I think people need to be careful with how they interpret people's comments.


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  #386  
Old August 17th, 2010, 3:49 pm
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Re: People's Misconceptions of Feminism

Quote:
Originally Posted by flimseycauldron View Post
I feel that they say that they want equality. But true equality doesn't spring from one source or one philosophy and to claim that your philosophy is the better one. Then I listen to feminists say how women should be able to dress sexy and walk down the street without harrassment and then be taken to task for doing their hair or shaving their armpits and falling into male dominated society. Which is it? Which one of those things is going to creat equality? If you say, well it's a combination, how so? When and where do you draw the line? Personal experience? If personal experience is all you can go by in that situation how do feminists feel comfortable enough to make sweeping statements about something as serious as harrassment and something as nebulous as shaving ones legs under societal influences? And how can feminists do that without mocking other women or thinking them misguided?
There are disagreements regardiong how equality should be achieved but equality is what feminism is about, IMO.
Quote:
If it's not about who needs it more than why pick and choose between different groups? If you are promoting tolerance across the board then, to me, you are less a feminist than simply a human rights activist. But if your only contribution is toward women then you are saying that women need it more.
I don't know what you work with and of course you don't need to say it but imagine someone coming to you and telling you that you shouldn't be doing what you do. You should instead spend all your living hours trying to find a solution to world famine because it is a huge concern. Point being, you probably chose your job on the basis of your interests and you believe you are doing something that matters. That's not to say you believe you are doing the only thing that matters in this world and that other issues just aren't important. Do you see what I mean? People have the right to involve themselves in some matters and not be involved in others. That's not to say they don't care about other things as well.
Quote:
There are so many factors in play in those jobs that it's impossible to say that anyone is doing the "same job" as the next person.
Men getting paid for then women for doing the same job is a well known fact and sociological studies support it. I'm sure those researchers thought well and hard and considered the difference between one job and another before making such a claim.
Quote:
If feminists can't be united on there core messages than I simply don't see how anyone can make a sweeping statement about what feminism is.
But why can't they be united? That was my point actually. I don't consider anyone who thinks women are better than men a feminist, I consider that to be sexism. Like I said before, feminism has made huge contributions to both Social Science and the Humanities. So much research is based on it. It cannot be a blurry concept.
Quote:
Since nobody is stopping you from discussing anything how is it right or fair to label someone because they do not want to have that discussion or do not see the need to have such a discussion?
I haven't labelled anyone anything.
Quote:
How can you blythly discuss how women are "setting themselves up for a fall" without demeaning those women?
I don't understand what you are suggesting. Is it better to not discuss the negative sides of for example women's objectification simply for the sake of not insulting some women? I think this would be devastating. Questioning something doesn't mean you think you are better than other people. Trying to change something doesn't mean that either. I don't believe I am better than anyone.


  #387  
Old August 17th, 2010, 4:06 pm
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Re: People's Misconceptions of Feminism

Quote:
Originally Posted by flimseycauldron
What I am opposed to is this thought that we are special because we identify with one group more than another. That is elitism. And I'm not okay with that.
Did we ever say that? I can see why you would be upset if we had, but I don't think any of us think that way at all--I certainly don't.


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Last edited by Hes; August 17th, 2010 at 4:12 pm. Reason: Add the names of the people you quote!
  #388  
Old August 17th, 2010, 4:18 pm
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Re: People's Misconceptions of Feminism

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